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Re: [The Existential Society] That many are called-few are chosen...as per Kierkegaard

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  • <none>
    Eh, Bob, talking in detail about where other people are is yet another way of avoiding one s own inwardness, and this is part of the point I want to make about
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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      Eh, Bob, talking in detail about where other people are is yet another
      way of avoiding one's own inwardness, and this is part of the point I
      want to make about Kierkegaard. We can never really know where other
      people are because we can only base our opinion upon external
      observation, and you've already talked about where that gets you...

      Jim R.
    • Bob M.
      From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self- introspection and much change, I find that one can know others extremely well, or surely well enough
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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        From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self-
        introspection and much change, I find that one can know others
        extremely well, or surely well enough not to be taken in by their
        ways of weakness, foolishness, dependancy, and self-centeredness. And
        especially and surely those in one's close living and social circle.
        And I also think of Paul's comment to the Corinthians here, that the
        spiritual man has insight into EVERYTHING and this bothers and
        baffles the man of the world and he simply doesn't understand him at
        all. So one could say that God or wisdom is a man's guide,
        protection, and deliverer of the goodness in his life, hence the need
        to shape up in earnest in the ways of truth and righteousness,
        beginning first with himself, if he wants to rise up above the herd
        of mediocrity and live out his days with a real sense of purpose and
        genuine happiness. Kierkegaard is pretty well describing my
        experiences and my outlook in the qoutes of his I placed here
        previously, and I feel I understand both him and myself quite
        clearly, although it's been years since I've read him thoroughly.
        Actually I think reading him hot and heavy, along with Schopenhauer
        some 25 years ago helped take me down to the depths of despair, from
        which a radical transforming spiritual or kundalini experience took
        place. Yet I have no need to stay in the bounds of his works alone or
        know him from head to toe either. And likewise and lastly I find that
        most men who walked the path less traveled had exceptional childhoods
        as, in retrospect, both my own and my wife's were. And we still often
        go back through them and continue to learn from them. I was an
        adopted and only child (having had older parents) and she was the
        forth of five girls in her family. And she turned out to be the
        cinderella of them all, as her dad ironically sometimes called her.
        Two of her sisters had early demises, one a suicide at 39, another
        cancer at 48, and the other two remain unfortunately well-locked into
        the mediocrity of the world and it's soul destroying ways. And
        Laing's works I find were helpful to me in regards to the healthy and
        unhealthy workings of sibling rivalry and the family over the years.
        But of course again it all gets back to first understanding oneself,
        along with a willingness to own up to and rise up above all of one's
        failings, weaknesses, and shortcomings in his own life. I want to
        shout here, but instead I'll be cool and just chill.

        Bob M.
        _____________________________________

        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
        <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
        > Eh, Bob, talking in detail about where other people are is yet
        another
        > way of avoiding one's own inwardness, and this is part of the point
        I
        > want to make about Kierkegaard. We can never really know where
        other
        > people are because we can only base our opinion upon external
        > observation, and you've already talked about where that gets you...
        >
        > Jim R.
      • <none>
        Bob, I m sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but he
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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          Bob, I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe
          that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of the
          Holy Spirit, but he never implies that the believer can judge all
          -people- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

          There were times when Paul advised his readers to suspend judgment.
          Those who are so certain of their own judgment are deceiving
          themselves: arrogant, self absorbed, and sinning. Paul considered
          himself foolish for speaking highly of himself even when it was for the
          Corinthians' own good; he had his mountaintop experiences, but
          preferred not to make reference to those, but only to what the
          Corinthians saw for themselves in him.

          Know well enough to not be taken in? Absolutely -- but that's only
          accurate when someone's trying to sell you something. Most people
          aren't.

          Jim R.

          --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

          > From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self-
          > introspection and much change, I find that one can know others
          > extremely well, or surely well enough not to be taken in by their
          > ways of weakness, foolishness, dependancy, and self-centeredness.
        • Bob M.
          Well Jim I think it s vain to haggle over interpretations here. Paul, as I see it, also toyed with having the mind of God, but seemed to have settled for
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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            Well Jim I think it's vain to haggle over interpretations here. Paul,
            as I see it, also toyed with having the mind of God, but seemed to
            have settled for having the mind of Christ. Personally I believe we
            can have the mind of God at least psychologically speaking. Whatever
            the case though, I would surely hope you get to the end of your days
            without having too much wool pulled over your eyes by life and other
            people Jim. But of course this is your call, your business. I think
            it was Shaw that said quite sometime ago that men don't fully mature
            till around 70, if indeed they ever do at all. And my view is that
            this situation surely hasn't improved since then. When I speak to
            others generally I speak a lot of my own past failings and spiritual
            self-overcoming and character rebuilding. This seems to go over
            better, but then there are always those......well.....unfortunates
            who will wail and flail. I do all in all however admire Paul, as
            sooner or later he got thrown out of every town that he spoke in. And
            I like especially his talk to the Ephesians, I think it was , where
            he essentially commanded men to love their wives just as the Lord
            loves them. Indicating here that he had a real grip on the capacity
            to love and fully be.

            I'm curious Jim. Have you ever had any spiritual revelations or
            awakening experiences along the lines of Paul on the road to
            Damascus? Personally I believe that such an experience or experiences
            are absolutely vital if one is to have a complete psychic change or
            go beyond (and stay beyond) the confines of both self-will and good
            and evil. Or one might say to get out of the recursive loop as
            follows:

            http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/55

            Bob M.

            P.S. If one roots out ALL traces of his fraudulently conditioned self-
            will, will he then be fully Holy Spirit driven? Or perhaps then both
            fully human and fully divine?
            _____________________________________



            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
            <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
            > Bob, I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe
            > that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of
            the
            > Holy Spirit, but he never implies that the believer can judge all
            > -people- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
            >
            > There were times when Paul advised his readers to suspend judgment.
            > Those who are so certain of their own judgment are deceiving
            > themselves: arrogant, self absorbed, and sinning. Paul considered
            > himself foolish for speaking highly of himself even when it was for
            the
            > Corinthians' own good; he had his mountaintop experiences, but
            > preferred not to make reference to those, but only to what the
            > Corinthians saw for themselves in him.
            >
            > Know well enough to not be taken in? Absolutely -- but that's only
            > accurate when someone's trying to sell you something. Most people
            > aren't.
            >
            > Jim R.
            .
          • <none>
            Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously immediately transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented, but habits of thought
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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              Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously immediately
              transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented, but
              habits of thought and of actions need to be changed, and there is no
              substitute but discipline, practice, failure, and trying again.

              I see failure as a more important discipline than success. Cultivation
              of the ability to endure repeated failure, doubly so. I don't think it
              was an accident that all Christ's disciples forsook him and fled. We
              become disillusioned with who we are, then develop realistic
              expectations, then jettison concern for the self altogether. The self
              in this last stage isn't lost, but simply so God-focused that it no
              longer spends most of its time thinking about itself. I see myself as
              being in the second stage: realistic expectations of myself and others,
              but willing to be surprised.

              Have you read Joakim Garff's biography of Kierkegaard? I think you
              would find his self questioning and self interpretation at the end of
              his life illuminating.

              I suspect we approach these issues from within the context of widely
              divergent traditions, and I also suspect -- but I could be wrong --
              your primary orientation (monist) wouldn't view them as divergent,
              while mine would (theist).

              Jim R.
            • Bob M.
              Indeed I ve had many, many failures (learning experiences) since my first spiritual awakening some 28 years ago. Actually I ve had many such spiritual
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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                Indeed I've had many, many failures (learning experiences) since my
                first spiritual awakening some 28 years ago. Actually I've had many
                such spiritual experiences as a child which got lost in the shuffle
                of the rat race, but returned again as the fog of self-will lifted.
                And likewise there are also the many successes. And being perfectly
                one with God or the holy spirit is presently a rather common
                experience for both myself and my wife. She's undergone her own dark
                night of the soul experiences some 5-6 years ago. And I'm glad I
                finally had the maturity and understanding to be there for her,
                rather than as previously happened a couple of times, short-
                circuiting them via the mental health and medication route.

                No I haven't read Garff's book on Kierkegaard, but I think my own
                self-questioning probably exceeds his and that so did Nietzsche's.
                This is not to say that I couldn't learn something of value from it
                though. Actually I want to put reading to a rest as I find for myself
                it still can be an escape from or avoidance of doing far more
                spiritually productive things. So far as stages go, I never really
                placed much, if any, importance on them. Actually I think this could
                be dangerous. My path was essentially one of rip, shit, or bust,
                rather than getting caught up in the mechanics of a program or
                the 'law'.

                Again I'm curious Jim. In your journey have you ever been reduced
                materially for a time to having possessed nothing, or let's say
                nearly nothing? Like living for a time on the streets or in a
                mission, after having had a good grip on the so-called American
                Dream? Or should I say here a real hands-on Luke 18: 29-30 experience?

                Bob M.

                P.S. Personally I see many good souls failing to get the gold in life
                simply because they lack the courage to make major life changes,
                including steeping out of all present existing patterns, and going it
                alone at least for a time (the real live action leap of faith). To
                the point of actually spending much time being a child again in order
                to re-establish the feeling of feelings once again. My wife and I
                spent 3 and 6 months living in a friend's remote and secluded
                mountain home some 16-17 years ago. This I feel was very vital for
                authentic self-discovery and re-establishment, especially for her, as
                I only met her a year or so previously and she was considerably shell-
                shocked at the time, as a result of recently leaving a bad 15
                marriage. Orientation you say? How about, by the grace of God, real
                f___in' down to earth Jim?
                ____________________________________________





                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                > Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously
                immediately
                > transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented,
                but
                > habits of thought and of actions need to be changed, and there is no
                > substitute but discipline, practice, failure, and trying again.
                >
                > I see failure as a more important discipline than success.
                Cultivation
                > of the ability to endure repeated failure, doubly so. I don't
                think it
                > was an accident that all Christ's disciples forsook him and fled.
                We
                > become disillusioned with who we are, then develop realistic
                > expectations, then jettison concern for the self altogether. The
                self
                > in this last stage isn't lost, but simply so God-focused that it no
                > longer spends most of its time thinking about itself. I see myself
                as
                > being in the second stage: realistic expectations of myself and
                others,
                > but willing to be surprised.
                >
                > Have you read Joakim Garff's biography of Kierkegaard? I think you
                > would find his self questioning and self interpretation at the end
                of
                > his life illuminating.
                >
                > I suspect we approach these issues from within the context of widely
                > divergent traditions, and I also suspect -- but I could be wrong --
                > your primary orientation (monist) wouldn't view them as divergent,
                > while mine would (theist).
                >
                > Jim R.
              • <none>
                Hmmm...no, I haven t been reduced that far. I have been in circumstances where I lived under constant pressure for a long time; that s a different kind of
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                  Hmmm...no, I haven't been reduced that far. I have been in
                  circumstances where I lived under constant pressure for a long time;
                  that's a different kind of discipline. The need for it varies person
                  by person. Christ called some rich people to abandon everything
                  (reduce themselves to poverty) and follow him. Others weren't required
                  to do this.

                  I think this isn't a decision we're supposed to make for ourselves.

                  Jim R.
                • Bob M.
                  Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly) even God Himself can t make it for us, even as much as He really, really wants to. Here
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                    Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly)
                    even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                    really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that unwillingness to
                    actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My experience
                    once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                    breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least half-awake,
                    history also makes this quite clear.

                    Bob M.

                    P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back in '77
                    which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and spiritual
                    awakening to occur.

                    ____________________________________________

                    > I think this isn't a decision we're supposed to make for ourselves.
                    >
                    > Jim R.
                  • <none>
                    You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose poverty for ourselves.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                      You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence
                      below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose
                      poverty for ourselves. My comment is that it's not up to us to make
                      that choice: I think God leads us into poverty when he wants that for
                      us, and keeps us out of it when he wants -that- for us. There are
                      ethical concerns -- like legitimate responsibility to one's family --
                      that may mediate whether or not we endure periods of poverty for the
                      sake of spiritual growth.

                      This is spoken from a position of privilege, not a position of one who
                      endures poverty because forced to by circumstance, family or not.
                      Poverty under these conditions is not desireable.

                      We can let go while still having things, you know. That's the hardest
                      kind of letting go to do, of course, and the most easiest to lie to
                      ourselves about accomplishing.

                      But I agree with you about even God not being able to make the decision
                      about letting go of the self for us -- that we need to make it
                      ourselves, but make it with divine assistance. Perhaps it is better to
                      say God is always making the decision for us to let go of ourselves for
                      us, but that it won't be carried out until we agree with the decision.


                      Jim R.

                      --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

                      > Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly)
                      > even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                      > really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that unwillingness
                      > to
                      > actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My
                      > experience
                      > once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                      > breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least
                      > half-awake,
                      > history also makes this quite clear.
                      >
                      > Bob M.
                      >
                      > P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back in '77
                      > which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and spiritual
                      > awakening to occur.
                    • Bob M.
                      I m not directing this at you Jim, but when one is given the gift of life and love there comes with it a tremendous sorrow from the clear realization that
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                        I'm not directing this at you Jim, but when one is given the gift of
                        life and love there comes with it a tremendous sorrow from the clear
                        realization that virtually everyone, everywhere is terribly stuck in
                        the darkness, the lies, and the spirit destroying patterns of the
                        world. And today I was especially troubled again by this awareness. I
                        see no one anywhere breaking through and remain deeply tormented at
                        times as to how to ever be genuinely instrumental in the conversion
                        of others. I've mentioned previously the great number of mistakes and
                        failures I made in the journey, but today I came the realization of
                        the magnitude of the suffering I too experienced over the years.
                        Surely this is all behind me, yet I find much of the suffering, at
                        least in part, stemmed from the fact that there was no encouragement
                        from or examples by anyone around me who were themselves truly
                        growing in the light of Truth. There are times too yet that I look
                        back on my travels and seeing what I've been through that I just want
                        to throw in the towel and write everybody and the whole damn trip
                        itself off and mahamasadhi myself out of here like some others in
                        fact did, they too having reached the point of having had enough of
                        it all. Nietzsche felt it would be extremely difficult for the
                        authentic self-overcomer to hold together his strength and
                        enthusiasm, and he surely was right in this. I said to my wife again
                        today how great it would be if we knew just 2 or 3 other people who
                        themselves clearly 'knew' and were truly growing in the light of the
                        Truth. But this is not yet to be and I continue to seek direction as
                        to how to begin to form an ever increasing body of genuinely realized
                        souls. Those who will let go of all rationalizing of security-seeking
                        and in fact 'let go' absolutely. Both Yogananda and the term self-
                        realization come to mind here. A fine man was he till he had enough.
                        I continue to be loosely involved with the AA fellowship, which was
                        quite helpful to me over the many years, but unfortunately I find it
                        has become pretty much a complete non-event so far as it being a
                        launch pad to a new freedom and a new happiness for anyone as I
                        believe it once truly was. More and more I think some sort of
                        concentrated monastic or classroom type setting is necessary for
                        genuine transformation. I think here of a Gurdjieff type of soul with
                        the 12 step plan in both his hand and his heart.

                        Bob M.

                        P.S. It's surely not all that much fun having the gold in life when
                        everyone around me is satisfied with mere pocket change.
                        _______________________________________________

                        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                        <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                        > You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence
                        > below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose
                        > poverty for ourselves. My comment is that it's not up to us to make
                        > that choice: I think God leads us into poverty when he wants that
                        for
                        > us, and keeps us out of it when he wants -that- for us. There are
                        > ethical concerns -- like legitimate responsibility to one's family -
                        -
                        > that may mediate whether or not we endure periods of poverty for the
                        > sake of spiritual growth.
                        >
                        > This is spoken from a position of privilege, not a position of one
                        who
                        > endures poverty because forced to by circumstance, family or not.
                        > Poverty under these conditions is not desireable.
                        >
                        > We can let go while still having things, you know. That's the
                        hardest
                        > kind of letting go to do, of course, and the most easiest to lie to
                        > ourselves about accomplishing.
                        >
                        > But I agree with you about even God not being able to make the
                        decision
                        > about letting go of the self for us -- that we need to make it
                        > ourselves, but make it with divine assistance. Perhaps it is
                        better to
                        > say God is always making the decision for us to let go of ourselves
                        for
                        > us, but that it won't be carried out until we agree with the
                        decision.
                        >
                        >
                        > Jim R.
                        >
                        > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and
                        repeatedly)
                        > > even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                        > > really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that
                        unwillingness
                        > > to
                        > > actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My
                        > > experience
                        > > once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                        > > breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least
                        > > half-awake,
                        > > history also makes this quite clear.
                        > >
                        > > Bob M.
                        > >
                        > > P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back
                        in '77
                        > > which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and
                        spiritual
                        > > awakening to occur.
                      • <none>
                        Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most people around us are. Jim R.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                          Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most
                          people around us are.

                          Jim R.
                        • Bob M.
                          That s good Jim. I still do the same myself. There are still some 2+2s here that don t yet add up to precisely 4, but I m continually observing, weighing, and
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                            That's good Jim. I still do the same myself. There are still some 2+2s
                            here that don't yet add up to precisely 4, but I'm continually
                            observing, weighing, and questioning. Yet I feel I have a pretty keen
                            sense of discernment of who is and isn't capable of breakthrough, or
                            the return to and the redevelopment of love. But of course ultimately
                            as we know, or should know, self-knowledge and understanding is the key
                            and being fully 'Other' or intuitively driven the goal. Have you read
                            much of Nietzsche or Otto Weininger Jim?

                            Bob M.
                            __________________________________________


                            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                            <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                            > Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most
                            > people around us are.
                            >
                            > Jim R.
                          • <none>
                            I ve read Nietzche. He s a first rate writer with second rate ideas. Kierkegaard was better. Haven t read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                              I've read Nietzche. He's a first rate writer with second rate ideas.
                              Kierkegaard was better.

                              Haven't read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?

                              Jim R.
                            • Bob M.
                              K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again it s been ages since
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook
                                and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again
                                it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that Nietzsche
                                had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who
                                ever lived or perhaps ever would live?

                                Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice. I
                                think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have any
                                guns close by when you get into it.

                                Bob M.
                                ___________________________________

                                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                > I've read Nietzche. He's a first rate writer with second rate
                                ideas.
                                > Kierkegaard was better.
                                >
                                > Haven't read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?
                                >
                                > Jim R.
                              • <none>
                                There s more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche s problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond it that made it look
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                  There's more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche's
                                  problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond it
                                  that made it look very pale and small in comparison. Funny that
                                  Nietzche never read K...even one of N's contemporaries said to him,
                                  "you gotta read this guy."

                                  Thanks for the W. link, though. And I'll take your advice :).

                                  Jim R.

                                  --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

                                  > K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook
                                  >
                                  > and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again
                                  > it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that Nietzsche
                                  >
                                  > had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who
                                  > ever lived or perhaps ever would live?
                                  >
                                  > Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice. I
                                  > think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                  > online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have any
                                  > guns close by when you get into it.
                                  >
                                  > Bob M.
                                • Bob M.
                                  But again I find that one must go there (abyss) first in order to ever truly soar like an eagle. Abyss, kundalini awakening, dark nights, K or Paul s fear and
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                    But again I find that one must go there (abyss) first in order to
                                    ever truly soar like an eagle. Abyss, kundalini awakening, dark
                                    nights, K or Paul's fear and trembling. Whatever one calls it. My
                                    view? Few are they who've gone fully through it and thereby having
                                    set up permanent residence in the Kingdom ('beyond'?[good & evil?]).
                                    Do you consider yourself to be one Jim?

                                    There'll be little debate or argument from here. Not good to hide or
                                    help another to hide in knowledge or rightness. Life's too short.
                                    Absolute 'self'-knowledge and transparency is the goal, remember? Of
                                    course surrender is a part of the mix too.

                                    BTW, here's a dynamite link by David Quinn that you might like that I
                                    ran across looking for O.W. Actually his whole sight ain't bad at all.

                                    http://home.primus.com.au/davidquinn/Books/Jesus01.htm

                                    Bob M.

                                    P.S. I find it's not good to put all one's eggs in the same basket.
                                    _________________________________________

                                    --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                    <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                    > There's more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche's
                                    > problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond
                                    it
                                    > that made it look very pale and small in comparison. Funny that
                                    > Nietzche never read K...even one of N's contemporaries said to him,
                                    > "you gotta read this guy."
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the W. link, though. And I'll take your advice :).
                                    >
                                    > Jim R.
                                    >
                                    > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last
                                    nook
                                    > >
                                    > > and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here
                                    again
                                    > > it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that
                                    Nietzsche
                                    > >
                                    > > had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man
                                    who
                                    > > ever lived or perhaps ever would live?
                                    > >
                                    > > Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice.
                                    I
                                    > > think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                    > > online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have
                                    any
                                    > > guns close by when you get into it.
                                    > >
                                    > > Bob M.
                                  • <none>
                                    If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me. Continual worry about where other people are is just another way of avoiding
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                                      "If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You
                                      follow me." Continual worry about where other people are is just
                                      another way of avoiding one's own growth.

                                      Of course I agree the dark night is a stage. So is betrayal and
                                      failure. It eradicates all pretense about ourselves. Nietzche refused
                                      to face this, so I think his facing of the abyss as negation was BS.
                                      What he needed to do was negate himself, and that was the very thing he
                                      was unwilling to do.

                                      I don't think absolute self knowledge is the goal, though. I think
                                      it's a by-product. There are far more interesting things to know in
                                      the universe than ourselves.

                                      Jim R.
                                    • Bob M.
                                      There s certainly always some sorrow here to see good souls miss their mark Jim. But continual worry.....no. At least not anymore. What value has it (another
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                                        There's certainly always some sorrow here to see good souls miss
                                        their mark Jim. But continual worry.....no. At least not anymore.
                                        What value has it (another heavy lesson here)? I was just refreshing
                                        myself with some K quotes as a result of looking for that link for
                                        you. HEAVY! HEAVY! HEAVY!. Yet I'm there (immersed head to toe in
                                        Kierkegaardian-likeness and beyond). Now to get a few others (that 1
                                        in 10,000 according to K - I think he said somewhere ) to 'let go'
                                        and get there themselves.

                                        If I'm correct you're 39 Jim. Good time for the leap. Don't wait too
                                        long. The mind crystallizes and the heart hardens with time. Many
                                        good souls, as I see it, tough it out through these critical years
                                        and as a result forever miss taking the leap. As I said before my low
                                        ebb in life came at 36, as did Nietzsche's. But essentially I
                                        suffered another 4 or 5 years in what then came to be a 22 year
                                        marriage. But at 41 I took the leap, packed it all in (the American
                                        Dream) and took up residence in a nearby mission. And from there I
                                        began to grow up and discover life all over again in a brand new and
                                        wonderful manner. And herein casting off all the old worldly
                                        conditioning and making being true to mine own self job one.

                                        "Far more interesting things to know in the universe than ourselves."
                                        You are right Jim. The greatest of them being LOVE!

                                        How was it said, 'know thyself' and ye shall know the universe and
                                        the gods? To which I would add, yes indeedy, and in a totally brand
                                        new and wonderful way.

                                        Bob M.
                                        ___________________________________________

                                        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                        <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                        > "If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You
                                        > follow me." Continual worry about where other people are is just
                                        > another way of avoiding one's own growth.
                                        >
                                        > Of course I agree the dark night is a stage. So is betrayal and
                                        > failure. It eradicates all pretense about ourselves. Nietzche
                                        refused
                                        > to face this, so I think his facing of the abyss as negation was
                                        BS.
                                        > What he needed to do was negate himself, and that was the very
                                        thing he
                                        > was unwilling to do.
                                        >
                                        > I don't think absolute self knowledge is the goal, though. I think
                                        > it's a by-product. There are far more interesting things to know in
                                        > the universe than ourselves.
                                        >
                                        > Jim R.
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