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Re: [The Existential Society] That many are called-few are chosen...as per Kierkegaard

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  • Bob M.
    Surely knowledge of Kierkgaard can be of value, but the key I find is to live in his spirit Jim, as then alone one will grow in wisdom of the heart, which is a
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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      Surely knowledge of Kierkgaard can be of value, but the key I find is
      to live in his spirit Jim, as then alone one will grow in wisdom of
      the heart, which is a very rare thing in these last days, rather than
      atrophying away in the knowledge of the head; SELF-knowledge/knowing
      alone being the beginning of fullness of being. But the prevailing
      m.o. everywhere seems to be to hide in the knowledge of things
      external, which I feel you might be doing Jim.

      I find that radical human transformation requires reaching that 'hour
      of great self-contempt' in the Nietzschian vein, although Christ
      alluded to this also. And, as you say, at least in word, begin
      (predestined?) exploring the horrors of the abyss or the desert. And
      while few seem to have the innate sensitivity and courage for this,
      even fewer yet of those who do ever die fully to the known and
      actually do it and thereby come to experience genuine rebirth. And as
      Gibran, Goethe, and others have said, their lives remain but little
      more than a blank page in the book of existence. And I would add too
      that nearly everything they touch they turn to shit, which will, in a
      matter of time, bring about the 'abomination that makes desolate'.
      NTL, till then I shall spend my last days trying to set up some sort
      of a 'New Jerusalem' here on earth.

      I have cut Helen and another person from the list Jim this am, as I
      felt they were here (actually they butted in here after a rather long
      absence) primarily for the sake of doing monkey business. Having
      somehow been handed the moderatorship here quite some time ago, I'm
      going to make an attempt to control this place for righteousness sake
      even if I wind up alone, as I'm real used to pretty happily being
      anyway (though having a wonderful wife who's quite free also of the
      bondage of self is a big, big help in this regard). Spiritual
      productivity and human growth are my primary aim here and everywhere
      in life for that matter (as is stated in the original description and
      purpose of this place), and I've seen for too long now what takes
      place in these forums if those who can't or won't rise above the
      present fallen human condition are permitted to gain even a slight
      foothold in them.

      Bob M.

      P.S. "I believed that people who make a fuss about politics do so
      because their heads are too empty to think about more important
      things." Colin Wilson

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/J_Krishnamurti/message/22337
      _________________________________________

      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
      <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
      > Helen: thanks for the background. I think I'm glad I don't share it
      > :). The list does seem to be pretty quiet most of the time.
      >
      > Bob: thanks for the response and for the link below. I've been
      reading
      > quite a bit of Kierkegaard over the last year or so and feel that
      last
      > quotation is paradigmatic of his approach to humanity: he's simply
      not
      > in a position to know, and worse, he doesn't know that he's not in a
      > position to know.
      >
      > I think many philosophers forget to distinguish between the ability
      to
      > articulate a feeling, and the ability to feel the feeling at all.
      It
      > is a very, very difficult thing to turn one's humanity (still,
      whatever
      > that means) off to the degree that you describe. It takes
      deliberate
      > effort -- only someone with a great deal of ability and seemingly
      > demonic intent can be successful. And then they become truly a
      horror
      > -- perhaps a very pleasant horror most of the time, but still a
      horror
      > once you begin to see past the surface.
      >
      > Jim R.
      >
      > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
      >
      > > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/42
      > >
      > > Bob M.
    • <none>
      Eh, Bob, talking in detail about where other people are is yet another way of avoiding one s own inwardness, and this is part of the point I want to make about
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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        Eh, Bob, talking in detail about where other people are is yet another
        way of avoiding one's own inwardness, and this is part of the point I
        want to make about Kierkegaard. We can never really know where other
        people are because we can only base our opinion upon external
        observation, and you've already talked about where that gets you...

        Jim R.
      • Bob M.
        From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self- introspection and much change, I find that one can know others extremely well, or surely well enough
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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          From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self-
          introspection and much change, I find that one can know others
          extremely well, or surely well enough not to be taken in by their
          ways of weakness, foolishness, dependancy, and self-centeredness. And
          especially and surely those in one's close living and social circle.
          And I also think of Paul's comment to the Corinthians here, that the
          spiritual man has insight into EVERYTHING and this bothers and
          baffles the man of the world and he simply doesn't understand him at
          all. So one could say that God or wisdom is a man's guide,
          protection, and deliverer of the goodness in his life, hence the need
          to shape up in earnest in the ways of truth and righteousness,
          beginning first with himself, if he wants to rise up above the herd
          of mediocrity and live out his days with a real sense of purpose and
          genuine happiness. Kierkegaard is pretty well describing my
          experiences and my outlook in the qoutes of his I placed here
          previously, and I feel I understand both him and myself quite
          clearly, although it's been years since I've read him thoroughly.
          Actually I think reading him hot and heavy, along with Schopenhauer
          some 25 years ago helped take me down to the depths of despair, from
          which a radical transforming spiritual or kundalini experience took
          place. Yet I have no need to stay in the bounds of his works alone or
          know him from head to toe either. And likewise and lastly I find that
          most men who walked the path less traveled had exceptional childhoods
          as, in retrospect, both my own and my wife's were. And we still often
          go back through them and continue to learn from them. I was an
          adopted and only child (having had older parents) and she was the
          forth of five girls in her family. And she turned out to be the
          cinderella of them all, as her dad ironically sometimes called her.
          Two of her sisters had early demises, one a suicide at 39, another
          cancer at 48, and the other two remain unfortunately well-locked into
          the mediocrity of the world and it's soul destroying ways. And
          Laing's works I find were helpful to me in regards to the healthy and
          unhealthy workings of sibling rivalry and the family over the years.
          But of course again it all gets back to first understanding oneself,
          along with a willingness to own up to and rise up above all of one's
          failings, weaknesses, and shortcomings in his own life. I want to
          shout here, but instead I'll be cool and just chill.

          Bob M.
          _____________________________________

          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
          <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
          > Eh, Bob, talking in detail about where other people are is yet
          another
          > way of avoiding one's own inwardness, and this is part of the point
          I
          > want to make about Kierkegaard. We can never really know where
          other
          > people are because we can only base our opinion upon external
          > observation, and you've already talked about where that gets you...
          >
          > Jim R.
        • <none>
          Bob, I m sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but he
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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            Bob, I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe
            that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of the
            Holy Spirit, but he never implies that the believer can judge all
            -people- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

            There were times when Paul advised his readers to suspend judgment.
            Those who are so certain of their own judgment are deceiving
            themselves: arrogant, self absorbed, and sinning. Paul considered
            himself foolish for speaking highly of himself even when it was for the
            Corinthians' own good; he had his mountaintop experiences, but
            preferred not to make reference to those, but only to what the
            Corinthians saw for themselves in him.

            Know well enough to not be taken in? Absolutely -- but that's only
            accurate when someone's trying to sell you something. Most people
            aren't.

            Jim R.

            --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

            > From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self-
            > introspection and much change, I find that one can know others
            > extremely well, or surely well enough not to be taken in by their
            > ways of weakness, foolishness, dependancy, and self-centeredness.
          • Bob M.
            Well Jim I think it s vain to haggle over interpretations here. Paul, as I see it, also toyed with having the mind of God, but seemed to have settled for
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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              Well Jim I think it's vain to haggle over interpretations here. Paul,
              as I see it, also toyed with having the mind of God, but seemed to
              have settled for having the mind of Christ. Personally I believe we
              can have the mind of God at least psychologically speaking. Whatever
              the case though, I would surely hope you get to the end of your days
              without having too much wool pulled over your eyes by life and other
              people Jim. But of course this is your call, your business. I think
              it was Shaw that said quite sometime ago that men don't fully mature
              till around 70, if indeed they ever do at all. And my view is that
              this situation surely hasn't improved since then. When I speak to
              others generally I speak a lot of my own past failings and spiritual
              self-overcoming and character rebuilding. This seems to go over
              better, but then there are always those......well.....unfortunates
              who will wail and flail. I do all in all however admire Paul, as
              sooner or later he got thrown out of every town that he spoke in. And
              I like especially his talk to the Ephesians, I think it was , where
              he essentially commanded men to love their wives just as the Lord
              loves them. Indicating here that he had a real grip on the capacity
              to love and fully be.

              I'm curious Jim. Have you ever had any spiritual revelations or
              awakening experiences along the lines of Paul on the road to
              Damascus? Personally I believe that such an experience or experiences
              are absolutely vital if one is to have a complete psychic change or
              go beyond (and stay beyond) the confines of both self-will and good
              and evil. Or one might say to get out of the recursive loop as
              follows:

              http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/55

              Bob M.

              P.S. If one roots out ALL traces of his fraudulently conditioned self-
              will, will he then be fully Holy Spirit driven? Or perhaps then both
              fully human and fully divine?
              _____________________________________



              --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
              <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
              > Bob, I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe
              > that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of
              the
              > Holy Spirit, but he never implies that the believer can judge all
              > -people- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
              >
              > There were times when Paul advised his readers to suspend judgment.
              > Those who are so certain of their own judgment are deceiving
              > themselves: arrogant, self absorbed, and sinning. Paul considered
              > himself foolish for speaking highly of himself even when it was for
              the
              > Corinthians' own good; he had his mountaintop experiences, but
              > preferred not to make reference to those, but only to what the
              > Corinthians saw for themselves in him.
              >
              > Know well enough to not be taken in? Absolutely -- but that's only
              > accurate when someone's trying to sell you something. Most people
              > aren't.
              >
              > Jim R.
              .
            • <none>
              Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously immediately transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented, but habits of thought
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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                Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously immediately
                transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented, but
                habits of thought and of actions need to be changed, and there is no
                substitute but discipline, practice, failure, and trying again.

                I see failure as a more important discipline than success. Cultivation
                of the ability to endure repeated failure, doubly so. I don't think it
                was an accident that all Christ's disciples forsook him and fled. We
                become disillusioned with who we are, then develop realistic
                expectations, then jettison concern for the self altogether. The self
                in this last stage isn't lost, but simply so God-focused that it no
                longer spends most of its time thinking about itself. I see myself as
                being in the second stage: realistic expectations of myself and others,
                but willing to be surprised.

                Have you read Joakim Garff's biography of Kierkegaard? I think you
                would find his self questioning and self interpretation at the end of
                his life illuminating.

                I suspect we approach these issues from within the context of widely
                divergent traditions, and I also suspect -- but I could be wrong --
                your primary orientation (monist) wouldn't view them as divergent,
                while mine would (theist).

                Jim R.
              • Bob M.
                Indeed I ve had many, many failures (learning experiences) since my first spiritual awakening some 28 years ago. Actually I ve had many such spiritual
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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                  Indeed I've had many, many failures (learning experiences) since my
                  first spiritual awakening some 28 years ago. Actually I've had many
                  such spiritual experiences as a child which got lost in the shuffle
                  of the rat race, but returned again as the fog of self-will lifted.
                  And likewise there are also the many successes. And being perfectly
                  one with God or the holy spirit is presently a rather common
                  experience for both myself and my wife. She's undergone her own dark
                  night of the soul experiences some 5-6 years ago. And I'm glad I
                  finally had the maturity and understanding to be there for her,
                  rather than as previously happened a couple of times, short-
                  circuiting them via the mental health and medication route.

                  No I haven't read Garff's book on Kierkegaard, but I think my own
                  self-questioning probably exceeds his and that so did Nietzsche's.
                  This is not to say that I couldn't learn something of value from it
                  though. Actually I want to put reading to a rest as I find for myself
                  it still can be an escape from or avoidance of doing far more
                  spiritually productive things. So far as stages go, I never really
                  placed much, if any, importance on them. Actually I think this could
                  be dangerous. My path was essentially one of rip, shit, or bust,
                  rather than getting caught up in the mechanics of a program or
                  the 'law'.

                  Again I'm curious Jim. In your journey have you ever been reduced
                  materially for a time to having possessed nothing, or let's say
                  nearly nothing? Like living for a time on the streets or in a
                  mission, after having had a good grip on the so-called American
                  Dream? Or should I say here a real hands-on Luke 18: 29-30 experience?

                  Bob M.

                  P.S. Personally I see many good souls failing to get the gold in life
                  simply because they lack the courage to make major life changes,
                  including steeping out of all present existing patterns, and going it
                  alone at least for a time (the real live action leap of faith). To
                  the point of actually spending much time being a child again in order
                  to re-establish the feeling of feelings once again. My wife and I
                  spent 3 and 6 months living in a friend's remote and secluded
                  mountain home some 16-17 years ago. This I feel was very vital for
                  authentic self-discovery and re-establishment, especially for her, as
                  I only met her a year or so previously and she was considerably shell-
                  shocked at the time, as a result of recently leaving a bad 15
                  marriage. Orientation you say? How about, by the grace of God, real
                  f___in' down to earth Jim?
                  ____________________________________________





                  --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                  <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                  > Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously
                  immediately
                  > transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented,
                  but
                  > habits of thought and of actions need to be changed, and there is no
                  > substitute but discipline, practice, failure, and trying again.
                  >
                  > I see failure as a more important discipline than success.
                  Cultivation
                  > of the ability to endure repeated failure, doubly so. I don't
                  think it
                  > was an accident that all Christ's disciples forsook him and fled.
                  We
                  > become disillusioned with who we are, then develop realistic
                  > expectations, then jettison concern for the self altogether. The
                  self
                  > in this last stage isn't lost, but simply so God-focused that it no
                  > longer spends most of its time thinking about itself. I see myself
                  as
                  > being in the second stage: realistic expectations of myself and
                  others,
                  > but willing to be surprised.
                  >
                  > Have you read Joakim Garff's biography of Kierkegaard? I think you
                  > would find his self questioning and self interpretation at the end
                  of
                  > his life illuminating.
                  >
                  > I suspect we approach these issues from within the context of widely
                  > divergent traditions, and I also suspect -- but I could be wrong --
                  > your primary orientation (monist) wouldn't view them as divergent,
                  > while mine would (theist).
                  >
                  > Jim R.
                • <none>
                  Hmmm...no, I haven t been reduced that far. I have been in circumstances where I lived under constant pressure for a long time; that s a different kind of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                    Hmmm...no, I haven't been reduced that far. I have been in
                    circumstances where I lived under constant pressure for a long time;
                    that's a different kind of discipline. The need for it varies person
                    by person. Christ called some rich people to abandon everything
                    (reduce themselves to poverty) and follow him. Others weren't required
                    to do this.

                    I think this isn't a decision we're supposed to make for ourselves.

                    Jim R.
                  • Bob M.
                    Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly) even God Himself can t make it for us, even as much as He really, really wants to. Here
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                      Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly)
                      even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                      really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that unwillingness to
                      actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My experience
                      once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                      breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least half-awake,
                      history also makes this quite clear.

                      Bob M.

                      P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back in '77
                      which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and spiritual
                      awakening to occur.

                      ____________________________________________

                      > I think this isn't a decision we're supposed to make for ourselves.
                      >
                      > Jim R.
                    • <none>
                      You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose poverty for ourselves.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                        You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence
                        below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose
                        poverty for ourselves. My comment is that it's not up to us to make
                        that choice: I think God leads us into poverty when he wants that for
                        us, and keeps us out of it when he wants -that- for us. There are
                        ethical concerns -- like legitimate responsibility to one's family --
                        that may mediate whether or not we endure periods of poverty for the
                        sake of spiritual growth.

                        This is spoken from a position of privilege, not a position of one who
                        endures poverty because forced to by circumstance, family or not.
                        Poverty under these conditions is not desireable.

                        We can let go while still having things, you know. That's the hardest
                        kind of letting go to do, of course, and the most easiest to lie to
                        ourselves about accomplishing.

                        But I agree with you about even God not being able to make the decision
                        about letting go of the self for us -- that we need to make it
                        ourselves, but make it with divine assistance. Perhaps it is better to
                        say God is always making the decision for us to let go of ourselves for
                        us, but that it won't be carried out until we agree with the decision.


                        Jim R.

                        --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

                        > Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly)
                        > even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                        > really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that unwillingness
                        > to
                        > actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My
                        > experience
                        > once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                        > breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least
                        > half-awake,
                        > history also makes this quite clear.
                        >
                        > Bob M.
                        >
                        > P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back in '77
                        > which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and spiritual
                        > awakening to occur.
                      • Bob M.
                        I m not directing this at you Jim, but when one is given the gift of life and love there comes with it a tremendous sorrow from the clear realization that
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                          I'm not directing this at you Jim, but when one is given the gift of
                          life and love there comes with it a tremendous sorrow from the clear
                          realization that virtually everyone, everywhere is terribly stuck in
                          the darkness, the lies, and the spirit destroying patterns of the
                          world. And today I was especially troubled again by this awareness. I
                          see no one anywhere breaking through and remain deeply tormented at
                          times as to how to ever be genuinely instrumental in the conversion
                          of others. I've mentioned previously the great number of mistakes and
                          failures I made in the journey, but today I came the realization of
                          the magnitude of the suffering I too experienced over the years.
                          Surely this is all behind me, yet I find much of the suffering, at
                          least in part, stemmed from the fact that there was no encouragement
                          from or examples by anyone around me who were themselves truly
                          growing in the light of Truth. There are times too yet that I look
                          back on my travels and seeing what I've been through that I just want
                          to throw in the towel and write everybody and the whole damn trip
                          itself off and mahamasadhi myself out of here like some others in
                          fact did, they too having reached the point of having had enough of
                          it all. Nietzsche felt it would be extremely difficult for the
                          authentic self-overcomer to hold together his strength and
                          enthusiasm, and he surely was right in this. I said to my wife again
                          today how great it would be if we knew just 2 or 3 other people who
                          themselves clearly 'knew' and were truly growing in the light of the
                          Truth. But this is not yet to be and I continue to seek direction as
                          to how to begin to form an ever increasing body of genuinely realized
                          souls. Those who will let go of all rationalizing of security-seeking
                          and in fact 'let go' absolutely. Both Yogananda and the term self-
                          realization come to mind here. A fine man was he till he had enough.
                          I continue to be loosely involved with the AA fellowship, which was
                          quite helpful to me over the many years, but unfortunately I find it
                          has become pretty much a complete non-event so far as it being a
                          launch pad to a new freedom and a new happiness for anyone as I
                          believe it once truly was. More and more I think some sort of
                          concentrated monastic or classroom type setting is necessary for
                          genuine transformation. I think here of a Gurdjieff type of soul with
                          the 12 step plan in both his hand and his heart.

                          Bob M.

                          P.S. It's surely not all that much fun having the gold in life when
                          everyone around me is satisfied with mere pocket change.
                          _______________________________________________

                          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                          <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                          > You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence
                          > below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose
                          > poverty for ourselves. My comment is that it's not up to us to make
                          > that choice: I think God leads us into poverty when he wants that
                          for
                          > us, and keeps us out of it when he wants -that- for us. There are
                          > ethical concerns -- like legitimate responsibility to one's family -
                          -
                          > that may mediate whether or not we endure periods of poverty for the
                          > sake of spiritual growth.
                          >
                          > This is spoken from a position of privilege, not a position of one
                          who
                          > endures poverty because forced to by circumstance, family or not.
                          > Poverty under these conditions is not desireable.
                          >
                          > We can let go while still having things, you know. That's the
                          hardest
                          > kind of letting go to do, of course, and the most easiest to lie to
                          > ourselves about accomplishing.
                          >
                          > But I agree with you about even God not being able to make the
                          decision
                          > about letting go of the self for us -- that we need to make it
                          > ourselves, but make it with divine assistance. Perhaps it is
                          better to
                          > say God is always making the decision for us to let go of ourselves
                          for
                          > us, but that it won't be carried out until we agree with the
                          decision.
                          >
                          >
                          > Jim R.
                          >
                          > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and
                          repeatedly)
                          > > even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                          > > really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that
                          unwillingness
                          > > to
                          > > actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My
                          > > experience
                          > > once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                          > > breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least
                          > > half-awake,
                          > > history also makes this quite clear.
                          > >
                          > > Bob M.
                          > >
                          > > P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back
                          in '77
                          > > which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and
                          spiritual
                          > > awakening to occur.
                        • <none>
                          Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most people around us are. Jim R.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                            Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most
                            people around us are.

                            Jim R.
                          • Bob M.
                            That s good Jim. I still do the same myself. There are still some 2+2s here that don t yet add up to precisely 4, but I m continually observing, weighing, and
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                              That's good Jim. I still do the same myself. There are still some 2+2s
                              here that don't yet add up to precisely 4, but I'm continually
                              observing, weighing, and questioning. Yet I feel I have a pretty keen
                              sense of discernment of who is and isn't capable of breakthrough, or
                              the return to and the redevelopment of love. But of course ultimately
                              as we know, or should know, self-knowledge and understanding is the key
                              and being fully 'Other' or intuitively driven the goal. Have you read
                              much of Nietzsche or Otto Weininger Jim?

                              Bob M.
                              __________________________________________


                              --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                              <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                              > Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most
                              > people around us are.
                              >
                              > Jim R.
                            • <none>
                              I ve read Nietzche. He s a first rate writer with second rate ideas. Kierkegaard was better. Haven t read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                I've read Nietzche. He's a first rate writer with second rate ideas.
                                Kierkegaard was better.

                                Haven't read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?

                                Jim R.
                              • Bob M.
                                K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again it s been ages since
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                  K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook
                                  and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again
                                  it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that Nietzsche
                                  had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who
                                  ever lived or perhaps ever would live?

                                  Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice. I
                                  think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                  online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have any
                                  guns close by when you get into it.

                                  Bob M.
                                  ___________________________________

                                  --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                  <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                  > I've read Nietzche. He's a first rate writer with second rate
                                  ideas.
                                  > Kierkegaard was better.
                                  >
                                  > Haven't read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?
                                  >
                                  > Jim R.
                                • <none>
                                  There s more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche s problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond it that made it look
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                    There's more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche's
                                    problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond it
                                    that made it look very pale and small in comparison. Funny that
                                    Nietzche never read K...even one of N's contemporaries said to him,
                                    "you gotta read this guy."

                                    Thanks for the W. link, though. And I'll take your advice :).

                                    Jim R.

                                    --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

                                    > K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook
                                    >
                                    > and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again
                                    > it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that Nietzsche
                                    >
                                    > had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who
                                    > ever lived or perhaps ever would live?
                                    >
                                    > Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice. I
                                    > think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                    > online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have any
                                    > guns close by when you get into it.
                                    >
                                    > Bob M.
                                  • Bob M.
                                    But again I find that one must go there (abyss) first in order to ever truly soar like an eagle. Abyss, kundalini awakening, dark nights, K or Paul s fear and
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                      But again I find that one must go there (abyss) first in order to
                                      ever truly soar like an eagle. Abyss, kundalini awakening, dark
                                      nights, K or Paul's fear and trembling. Whatever one calls it. My
                                      view? Few are they who've gone fully through it and thereby having
                                      set up permanent residence in the Kingdom ('beyond'?[good & evil?]).
                                      Do you consider yourself to be one Jim?

                                      There'll be little debate or argument from here. Not good to hide or
                                      help another to hide in knowledge or rightness. Life's too short.
                                      Absolute 'self'-knowledge and transparency is the goal, remember? Of
                                      course surrender is a part of the mix too.

                                      BTW, here's a dynamite link by David Quinn that you might like that I
                                      ran across looking for O.W. Actually his whole sight ain't bad at all.

                                      http://home.primus.com.au/davidquinn/Books/Jesus01.htm

                                      Bob M.

                                      P.S. I find it's not good to put all one's eggs in the same basket.
                                      _________________________________________

                                      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                      <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                      > There's more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche's
                                      > problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond
                                      it
                                      > that made it look very pale and small in comparison. Funny that
                                      > Nietzche never read K...even one of N's contemporaries said to him,
                                      > "you gotta read this guy."
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for the W. link, though. And I'll take your advice :).
                                      >
                                      > Jim R.
                                      >
                                      > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last
                                      nook
                                      > >
                                      > > and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here
                                      again
                                      > > it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that
                                      Nietzsche
                                      > >
                                      > > had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man
                                      who
                                      > > ever lived or perhaps ever would live?
                                      > >
                                      > > Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice.
                                      I
                                      > > think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                      > > online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have
                                      any
                                      > > guns close by when you get into it.
                                      > >
                                      > > Bob M.
                                    • <none>
                                      If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me. Continual worry about where other people are is just another way of avoiding
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                                        "If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You
                                        follow me." Continual worry about where other people are is just
                                        another way of avoiding one's own growth.

                                        Of course I agree the dark night is a stage. So is betrayal and
                                        failure. It eradicates all pretense about ourselves. Nietzche refused
                                        to face this, so I think his facing of the abyss as negation was BS.
                                        What he needed to do was negate himself, and that was the very thing he
                                        was unwilling to do.

                                        I don't think absolute self knowledge is the goal, though. I think
                                        it's a by-product. There are far more interesting things to know in
                                        the universe than ourselves.

                                        Jim R.
                                      • Bob M.
                                        There s certainly always some sorrow here to see good souls miss their mark Jim. But continual worry.....no. At least not anymore. What value has it (another
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                                          There's certainly always some sorrow here to see good souls miss
                                          their mark Jim. But continual worry.....no. At least not anymore.
                                          What value has it (another heavy lesson here)? I was just refreshing
                                          myself with some K quotes as a result of looking for that link for
                                          you. HEAVY! HEAVY! HEAVY!. Yet I'm there (immersed head to toe in
                                          Kierkegaardian-likeness and beyond). Now to get a few others (that 1
                                          in 10,000 according to K - I think he said somewhere ) to 'let go'
                                          and get there themselves.

                                          If I'm correct you're 39 Jim. Good time for the leap. Don't wait too
                                          long. The mind crystallizes and the heart hardens with time. Many
                                          good souls, as I see it, tough it out through these critical years
                                          and as a result forever miss taking the leap. As I said before my low
                                          ebb in life came at 36, as did Nietzsche's. But essentially I
                                          suffered another 4 or 5 years in what then came to be a 22 year
                                          marriage. But at 41 I took the leap, packed it all in (the American
                                          Dream) and took up residence in a nearby mission. And from there I
                                          began to grow up and discover life all over again in a brand new and
                                          wonderful manner. And herein casting off all the old worldly
                                          conditioning and making being true to mine own self job one.

                                          "Far more interesting things to know in the universe than ourselves."
                                          You are right Jim. The greatest of them being LOVE!

                                          How was it said, 'know thyself' and ye shall know the universe and
                                          the gods? To which I would add, yes indeedy, and in a totally brand
                                          new and wonderful way.

                                          Bob M.
                                          ___________________________________________

                                          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                          <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                          > "If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You
                                          > follow me." Continual worry about where other people are is just
                                          > another way of avoiding one's own growth.
                                          >
                                          > Of course I agree the dark night is a stage. So is betrayal and
                                          > failure. It eradicates all pretense about ourselves. Nietzche
                                          refused
                                          > to face this, so I think his facing of the abyss as negation was
                                          BS.
                                          > What he needed to do was negate himself, and that was the very
                                          thing he
                                          > was unwilling to do.
                                          >
                                          > I don't think absolute self knowledge is the goal, though. I think
                                          > it's a by-product. There are far more interesting things to know in
                                          > the universe than ourselves.
                                          >
                                          > Jim R.
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