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Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this earth?

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  • Arvind Sood
    Dear Bob, Nietzsche spoke of Will to power as the ultimate goal. It makes sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K s vague following one s heart or
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 15, 2004
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      Dear Bob,
      Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
      How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for generations without a hope. If only they had a military and intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would some day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the futulity your argument.
      Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
      Teke care Bob
      Arvind Sood


      new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      Hello Arvind,

      If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure of
      a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
      fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
      vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
      simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
      eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
      That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
      falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land of
      the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
      ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and responsibility
      has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
      who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
      and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
      centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
      various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.

      http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57

      Bob M.

      P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
      that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God or
      the 'Other'.

      *************************************************

      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
      <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
      > Dear Bob,
      > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
      bicycles?
      > Think!
      > Arvind
      >
      > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Arvind,
      >
      > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He, like
      > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
      And
      > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
      rightfully
      > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
      they
      > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is dead!
      >
      > Bob M.
      >
      > ****************************************************





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    • Vikas Nagpal
      Hi All, I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view point do not make
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
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        Hi All,
        I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
        meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
        point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
        the right viewpoint !
        I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
        attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
        (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
        attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
        is not attached.)
        One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

        Now, how can one avoid attachment?

        The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
        eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
        mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
        about end of attachment)

        When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
        come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
        freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
        ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
        fulfilled.

        It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
        successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
        Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

        Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

        Wishing You Happiness
        Vikas

        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
        <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
        > Dear Bob,
        > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
        sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
        heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
        > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
        e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
        generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
        intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
        some
        day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
        futulity your argument.
        > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
        in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
        Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
        > Teke care Bob
        > Arvind Sood
        >
        >
        > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Arvind,
        >
        > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
        of
        > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
        > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
        > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
        > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
        > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
        > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
        > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
        of
        > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
        > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
        responsibility
        > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
        > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
        > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
        > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
        > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
        >
        > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
        >
        > Bob M.
        >
        > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
        > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
        or
        > the 'Other'.
        >
        > *************************************************
        >
        > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
        > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
        > > Dear Bob,
        > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
        > bicycles?
        > > Think!
        > > Arvind
        > >
        > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Arvind,
        > >
        > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
        like
        > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
        > And
        > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
        > rightfully
        > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
        > they
        > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
        dead!
        > >
        > > Bob M.
        > >
        > > ****************************************************
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > Arvind Sood
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Arvind Sood
        Dear Vikas, Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to your detachment? Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
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          Dear Vikas,
          Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to your detachment?
          Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
          " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
          There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
          Cheers!
          Arvind


          Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

          Hi All,
          I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
          meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
          point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
          the right viewpoint !
          I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
          attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
          (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
          attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
          is not attached.)
          One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

          Now, how can one avoid attachment?

          The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
          eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
          mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
          about end of attachment)

          When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
          come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
          freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
          ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
          fulfilled.

          It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
          successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
          Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

          Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

          Wishing You Happiness
          Vikas

          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
          <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
          > Dear Bob,
          > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
          sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
          heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
          > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
          e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
          generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
          intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
          some
          day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
          futulity your argument.
          > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
          in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
          Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
          > Teke care Bob
          > Arvind Sood
          >
          >
          > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Arvind,
          >
          > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
          of
          > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
          > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
          > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
          > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
          > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
          > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
          > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
          of
          > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
          > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
          responsibility
          > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
          > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
          > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
          > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
          > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
          >
          > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
          >
          > Bob M.
          >
          > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
          > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
          or
          > the 'Other'.
          >
          > *************************************************
          >
          > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
          > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
          > > Dear Bob,
          > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
          > bicycles?
          > > Think!
          > > Arvind
          > >
          > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Arvind,
          > >
          > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
          like
          > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
          > And
          > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
          > rightfully
          > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
          > they
          > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
          dead!
          > >
          > > Bob M.
          > >
          > > ****************************************************
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > Arvind Sood
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


          ---------------------------------
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          To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          Arvind Sood


          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vinagpal@hssworld.com
          Hi Arvind, Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am attached to detachment. This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Arvind,
            Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
            attached to detachment.
            This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
            enlightened being.
            (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
            and am working on it !! )

            But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
            even enlightenment.
            I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
            to go before I sleep !!!

            From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
            absolute truth" is true.
            But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
            truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
            (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

            I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
            It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
            same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
            evaluating an event.
            But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
            intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
            have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

            Wishing You Happiness
            Vikas





            Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

            To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
            cc:

            Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
            earth?




            Dear Vikas,
            Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
            your detachment?
            Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
            " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
            me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
            There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
            Cheers!
            Arvind


            Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

            Hi All,
            I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
            meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
            point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
            the right viewpoint !
            I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
            attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
            (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
            attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
            is not attached.)
            One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

            Now, how can one avoid attachment?

            The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
            eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
            mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
            about end of attachment)

            When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
            come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
            freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
            ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
            fulfilled.

            It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
            successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
            Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

            Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

            Wishing You Happiness
            Vikas

            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
            <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
            > Dear Bob,
            > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
            sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
            heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
            > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
            e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
            generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
            intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
            some
            day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
            futulity your argument.
            > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
            in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
            Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
            > Teke care Bob
            > Arvind Sood
            >
            >
            > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Arvind,
            >
            > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
            of
            > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
            > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
            > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
            > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
            > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
            > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
            > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
            of
            > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
            > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
            responsibility
            > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
            > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
            > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
            > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
            > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
            >
            > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
            >
            > Bob M.
            >
            > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
            > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
            or
            > the 'Other'.
            >
            > *************************************************
            >
            > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
            > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
            > > Dear Bob,
            > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
            > bicycles?
            > > Think!
            > > Arvind
            > >
            > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Arvind,
            > >
            > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
            like
            > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
            > And
            > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
            > rightfully
            > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
            > they
            > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
            dead!
            > >
            > > Bob M.
            > >
            > > ****************************************************
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > Arvind Sood
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


            ---------------------------------
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            To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            Arvind Sood


            ---------------------------------
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • new_trail_blazer
            Hello again Arvind, Keeping it simple Arvind, I find there s the will to power of the self (self(fish)-will), which is basically rooted in weakness,
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello again Arvind,

              Keeping it simple Arvind, I find there's the will to power of
              the self (self(fish)-will), which is basically rooted in weakness,
              insecurity, mediocrity, and falsehood, and there's the will to power
              for righteousness sake (which goes far beyond one's petty self-
              interests), and which is grounded in truth, strength, and creativity.
              The latter one alone manifesting in one 'being the light', as
              a 'proof' of its correctness, fullness, completeness. Here the
              bright, pure, and unselfish countenances of many young children comes
              to mind as further 'proof', that is before they're lead into the
              darkness of the everywhere all-encompassing self-will. And man
              presently is in a state of weakness, decay, or degeneracy, due to an
              inherent evolutionary backslide or fall which is a necessary part of
              the process of his creation, development, and completion, the result
              of which the present prevailing will (to power) universally is by and
              large one of self, the me, the I. Hence the abounding misery
              EVERYWHERE.

              Krishnamurti's 'journey' was in his words a 'pathless' one. Mine
              has a roadmap, that being AA's 12 steps. The 11th step, I find, being
              the major one whereby one unendingly abandons all facets of his long
              conditioned self-will, and its accompanying erroneous actions and
              behaviors, which are addressed in the preceeding steps, and immerses
              himself into the greater will, or the will of God, and thereby
              growing in the image and likeness of his creator, or one could say
              simply, but magnificently becoming fully human, fully alive, fully
              male/female. And thus the will to power that I find appropriate and
              life enhancing (and feel within my very being presently)is
              incorporated and expressed in step 11 as follows:

              "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
              contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of
              His WILL for us and the POWER to carry that out."

              Feeling good (and powerful) in servitude,

              Bob M.

              ****************************************************

              --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
              <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
              > Dear Bob,
              > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
              sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
              heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
              > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
              e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
              generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
              intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
              some day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
              futulity your argument.
              > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
              in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
              Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
              > Teke care Bob
              > Arvind Sood
            • Arvind Sood
              Dear Vikas, Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after that
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Vikas,
                Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?
                And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums of energy it goes through. You cannot because sometimes it is a wave and at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just an example)
                Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which, I think , has no limits. Try to define the end of the universe and you will rob it of its essence.
                Cheers!
                Arvind
                vinagpal@... wrote:

                Hi Arvind,
                Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
                attached to detachment.
                This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
                enlightened being.
                (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
                and am working on it !! )

                But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
                even enlightenment.
                I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
                to go before I sleep !!!

                From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
                absolute truth" is true.
                But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
                truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
                (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

                I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
                It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
                same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
                evaluating an event.
                But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
                intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
                have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

                Wishing You Happiness
                Vikas





                Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                cc:

                Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                earth?




                Dear Vikas,
                Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
                your detachment?
                Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
                " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
                me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
                There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
                Cheers!
                Arvind


                Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

                Hi All,
                I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
                meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
                point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
                the right viewpoint !
                I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
                attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
                (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
                attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
                is not attached.)
                One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

                Now, how can one avoid attachment?

                The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
                eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
                mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
                about end of attachment)

                When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
                come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
                freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
                ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
                fulfilled.

                It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
                successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
                Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

                Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

                Wishing You Happiness
                Vikas

                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Bob,
                > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
                sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
                heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
                > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
                e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
                generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
                intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
                some
                day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
                futulity your argument.
                > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
                in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
                Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
                > Teke care Bob
                > Arvind Sood
                >
                >
                > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Arvind,
                >
                > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
                of
                > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
                > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
                > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
                > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
                > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
                > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
                > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
                of
                > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
                > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
                responsibility
                > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
                > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
                > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
                > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
                > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
                >
                > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
                >
                > Bob M.
                >
                > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
                > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
                or
                > the 'Other'.
                >
                > *************************************************
                >
                > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                > > Dear Bob,
                > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
                > bicycles?
                > > Think!
                > > Arvind
                > >
                > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Arvind,
                > >
                > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
                like
                > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
                > And
                > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
                > rightfully
                > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
                > they
                > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
                dead!
                > >
                > > Bob M.
                > >
                > > ****************************************************
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > Arvind Sood
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ��� Try it today!
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                ---------------------------------
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                Arvind Sood


                ---------------------------------
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                Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ��� Try it today!

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                Yahoo! Groups Links









                ***************** HSS-Private *************

                "Please note:The email domain of Hughes Software Systems Ltd. has been changed to "hssworld.com" from hss.hns.com"

                "DISCLAIMER: This message is proprietary to Hughes Software Systems Limited (HSS) and is intended
                solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or
                confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for
                what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator
                immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly
                prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. HSS
                accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted
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                ---------------------------------
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Yalen, Alexander Sidney (UMC-Student)
                Vikas, i m sorry, i m just really confused at the moment. you said: But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even enlightenment. this
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:

                  "But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even enlightenment."

                  this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach oneself) to enlightenment, one must avoid attaching oneself to enlightenment. how can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the quest to avoid seeking enlightenment?

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Arvind Sood [mailto:sood_ar49@...]
                  Sent: Tue 11/16/2004 9:57 PM
                  To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this earth?


                  Dear Vikas,
                  Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?
                  And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                  Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums of energy it goes through. You cannot because sometimes it is a wave and at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just an example)
                  Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which, I think , has no limits. Try to define the end of the universe and you will rob it of its essence.
                  Cheers!
                  Arvind
                  vinagpal@... wrote:

                  Hi Arvind,
                  Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
                  attached to detachment.
                  This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
                  enlightened being.
                  (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
                  and am working on it !! )

                  But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
                  even enlightenment.
                  I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
                  to go before I sleep !!!

                  From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
                  absolute truth" is true.
                  But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
                  truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
                  (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

                  I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
                  It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
                  same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
                  evaluating an event.
                  But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
                  intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
                  have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

                  Wishing You Happiness
                  Vikas





                  Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                  To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                  cc:

                  Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                  earth?




                  Dear Vikas,
                  Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
                  your detachment?
                  Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
                  " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
                  me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
                  There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
                  Cheers!
                  Arvind


                  Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

                  Hi All,
                  I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
                  meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
                  point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
                  the right viewpoint !
                  I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
                  attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
                  (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
                  attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
                  is not attached.)
                  One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

                  Now, how can one avoid attachment?

                  The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
                  eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
                  mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
                  about end of attachment)

                  When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
                  come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
                  freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
                  ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
                  fulfilled.

                  It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
                  successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
                  Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

                  Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

                  Wishing You Happiness
                  Vikas

                  --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                  <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear Bob,
                  > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
                  sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
                  heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
                  > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
                  e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
                  generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
                  intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
                  some
                  day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
                  futulity your argument.
                  > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
                  in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
                  Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
                  > Teke care Bob
                  > Arvind Sood
                  >
                  >
                  > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Arvind,
                  >
                  > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
                  of
                  > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
                  > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
                  > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
                  > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
                  > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
                  > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
                  > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
                  of
                  > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
                  > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
                  responsibility
                  > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
                  > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
                  > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
                  > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
                  > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
                  >
                  > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
                  >
                  > Bob M.
                  >
                  > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
                  > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
                  or
                  > the 'Other'.
                  >
                  > *************************************************
                  >
                  > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                  > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                  > > Dear Bob,
                  > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
                  > bicycles?
                  > > Think!
                  > > Arvind
                  > >
                  > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Arvind,
                  > >
                  > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
                  like
                  > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
                  > And
                  > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
                  > rightfully
                  > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
                  > they
                  > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
                  dead!
                  > >
                  > > Bob M.
                  > >
                  > > ****************************************************
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Arvind Sood
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â?" Try it today!
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                  ---------------------------------
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                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  Arvind Sood


                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â?" Try it today!

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  ***************** HSS-Private *************

                  "Please note:The email domain of Hughes Software Systems Ltd. has been changed to "hssworld.com" from hss.hns.com"

                  "DISCLAIMER: This message is proprietary to Hughes Software Systems Limited (HSS) and is intended
                  solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or
                  confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for
                  what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator
                  immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly
                  prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. HSS
                  accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted
                  by this email including damage from virus."


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  Arvind Sood


                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Discover all that's new in My Yahoo!

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • vinagpal@hssworld.com
                  Hi Arvind, ... enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about? When one
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Arvind,

                    >>Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever
                    enlightened fully? Will that state not be a >>state of death because after
                    that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?

                    When one is enlightened, one knows the absolute truths. One know the
                    absolute truth of impermanence. So, one does not naturally attach oneself
                    to things as impermanent as bubbles. One knows the absolute truth of
                    ego-lessness, self-lessness. Because there is no "I", there exists no
                    question of attachment. So, when one knows the truth experientially (by
                    direct experience), one's whole mind knows it and one is completely
                    detached.

                    >>And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                    Direct experience is to feel the truth. Say, one feels that one's body is
                    continually dying and being reformed, or one is just a collection of
                    wavelets, forming and passing away continually with great rapidity, and
                    here-by giving a false perception of a fixed/permanent self. So, direct
                    experience does not talk about intellectualizing. Its about feeling the
                    truth, observing the truth, seeing the truth.

                    >>Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums
                    of energy it goes through. You cannot >>because sometimes it is a wave and
                    at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just
                    an >>example)
                    The electorn/quantums are just theories and they are definitely good for
                    the conceptual world to work.
                    But, when one walks on the path of self-discovery/enlightenment, one
                    should not take any beliefs as truth. One must believe only what one
                    experiences directly. So, one should not limit/constrain oenself by the
                    exising theories. When one feels the truth, one finds that there is no
                    permanent thing in the body, which one can call "I". This realization
                    purifies even the subconscious mind (subconscious mind does not think. It
                    only feels. Therefore direct experience is very necessary, as it reaches
                    the subconsciosu mind.

                    >>Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which,
                    I think , has no limits. Try to define >>the end of the universe and you
                    will rob it of its essence.
                    What I feel is that there is an inherent flaw in intellectualizing to find
                    the ultimate truth. We have a conditioned intellect. And with a
                    conditioned intellect how can we find the un-conditioned/absolute ultimate
                    truth ? I understand the intellect is absolutely necessary in finding a
                    right path. But I am sure the right path would involve something subtler
                    than thoughts !!


                    Wishing You a right path, and enlightenment
                    Vikas



                    Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                    To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                    cc:

                    Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                    earth?




                    Dear Vikas,
                    Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever
                    enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after
                    that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?
                    And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                    Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums
                    of energy it goes through. You cannot because sometimes it is a wave and
                    at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just
                    an example)
                    Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which, I
                    think , has no limits. Try to define the end of the universe and you will
                    rob it of its essence.
                    Cheers!
                    Arvind
                    vinagpal@... wrote:

                    Hi Arvind,
                    Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
                    attached to detachment.
                    This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
                    enlightened being.
                    (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
                    and am working on it !! )

                    But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
                    even enlightenment.
                    I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
                    to go before I sleep !!!

                    From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
                    absolute truth" is true.
                    But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
                    truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
                    (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

                    I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
                    It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
                    same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
                    evaluating an event.
                    But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
                    intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
                    have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

                    Wishing You Happiness
                    Vikas





                    Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                    To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                    cc:

                    Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                    earth?




                    Dear Vikas,
                    Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
                    your detachment?
                    Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
                    " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
                    me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
                    There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
                    Cheers!
                    Arvind


                    Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

                    Hi All,
                    I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
                    meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
                    point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
                    the right viewpoint !
                    I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
                    attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
                    (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
                    attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
                    is not attached.)
                    One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

                    Now, how can one avoid attachment?

                    The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
                    eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
                    mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
                    about end of attachment)

                    When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
                    come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
                    freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
                    ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
                    fulfilled.

                    It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
                    successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
                    Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

                    Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

                    Wishing You Happiness
                    Vikas

                    --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                    <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                    > Dear Bob,
                    > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
                    sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
                    heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
                    > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
                    e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
                    generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
                    intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
                    some
                    day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
                    futulity your argument.
                    > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
                    in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
                    Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
                    > Teke care Bob
                    > Arvind Sood
                    >
                    >
                    > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Arvind,
                    >
                    > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
                    of
                    > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
                    > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
                    > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
                    > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
                    > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
                    > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
                    > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
                    of
                    > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
                    > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
                    responsibility
                    > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
                    > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
                    > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
                    > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
                    > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
                    >
                    > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
                    >
                    > Bob M.
                    >
                    > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
                    > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
                    or
                    > the 'Other'.
                    >
                    > *************************************************
                    >
                    > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                    > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                    > > Dear Bob,
                    > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
                    > bicycles?
                    > > Think!
                    > > Arvind
                    > >
                    > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Arvind,
                    > >
                    > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
                    like
                    > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
                    > And
                    > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
                    > rightfully
                    > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
                    > they
                    > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
                    dead!
                    > >
                    > > Bob M.
                    > >
                    > > ****************************************************
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Arvind Sood
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                    ---------------------------------
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                    Arvind Sood


                    ---------------------------------
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                    solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or
                    confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for
                    what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator
                    immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly
                    prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. HSS
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                  • vinagpal@hssworld.com
                    Hi AlexanderVikas, i m sorry, i m just really confused at the moment. you said: But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 16, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Alexander

                      >>Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:
                      >>"But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                      enlightenment."
                      >>this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach
                      oneself) to enlightenment, one must avoid >>attaching oneself to
                      enlightenment. how can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the
                      quest to avoid >>seeking enlightenment?

                      Your concern is very genuine. This is indeed a catchy situation.

                      When one is working towards enlightenment, one will (in my view)
                      be attached to enlightenment. This is because, mind has the life long
                      habit of getting attached with the desires/goals. So, it will habitually
                      get attached to enlightenment.
                      But as one gets closer, the habit weakens, and hence the
                      attachment weakens.
                      So, I feel that the attachment will most likely remain, and will
                      get weaker and weaker as we progress, and will vanish when we reach the
                      goal. [But, one needs to be atleast consciously aware that one should not
                      be attached to enlightenment. Otherwise, if the attachment to
                      enlightenment gets very strong, it becomes a strong hinderance. A strongly
                      attached person will be involved in spirtual materialism, and will cease
                      progressing on the path. This is a very dangerous and hidden pitfall on
                      the royal road to freedom !!!]

                      Wishing You Happiness and Enlightenment
                      Vikas





                      Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                      To: <theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com>
                      cc:

                      Subject: RE: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                      earth?




                      Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:

                      "But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                      enlightenment."

                      this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach oneself)
                      to enlightenment, one must avoid attaching oneself to enlightenment. how
                      can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the quest to avoid
                      seeking enlightenment?

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Arvind Sood [mailto:sood_ar49@...]
                      Sent: Tue 11/16/2004 9:57 PM
                      To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this earth?


                      Dear Vikas,
                      Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever
                      enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after
                      that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?
                      And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                      Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums
                      of energy it goes through. You cannot because sometimes it is a wave and
                      at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just
                      an example)
                      Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which, I
                      think , has no limits. Try to define the end of the universe and you will
                      rob it of its essence.
                      Cheers!
                      Arvind
                      vinagpal@... wrote:

                      Hi Arvind,
                      Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
                      attached to detachment.
                      This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
                      enlightened being.
                      (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
                      and am working on it !! )

                      But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
                      even enlightenment.
                      I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
                      to go before I sleep !!!

                      From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
                      absolute truth" is true.
                      But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
                      truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
                      (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

                      I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
                      It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
                      same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
                      evaluating an event.
                      But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
                      intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
                      have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

                      Wishing You Happiness
                      Vikas





                      Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                      To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                      cc:

                      Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                      earth?




                      Dear Vikas,
                      Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
                      your detachment?
                      Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
                      " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
                      me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
                      There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
                      Cheers!
                      Arvind


                      Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

                      Hi All,
                      I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
                      meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
                      point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
                      the right viewpoint !
                      I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
                      attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
                      (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
                      attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
                      is not attached.)
                      One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

                      Now, how can one avoid attachment?

                      The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
                      eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
                      mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
                      about end of attachment)

                      When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
                      come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
                      freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
                      ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
                      fulfilled.

                      It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
                      successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
                      Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

                      Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

                      Wishing You Happiness
                      Vikas

                      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                      <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                      > Dear Bob,
                      > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
                      sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
                      heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
                      > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
                      e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
                      generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
                      intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
                      some
                      day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
                      futulity your argument.
                      > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
                      in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
                      Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
                      > Teke care Bob
                      > Arvind Sood
                      >
                      >
                      > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Arvind,
                      >
                      > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
                      of
                      > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
                      > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
                      > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
                      > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
                      > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
                      > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
                      > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
                      of
                      > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
                      > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
                      responsibility
                      > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
                      > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
                      > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
                      > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
                      > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
                      >
                      > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
                      >
                      > Bob M.
                      >
                      > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
                      > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
                      or
                      > the 'Other'.
                      >
                      > *************************************************
                      >
                      > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                      > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                      > > Dear Bob,
                      > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
                      > bicycles?
                      > > Think!
                      > > Arvind
                      > >
                      > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Arvind,
                      > >
                      > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
                      like
                      > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
                      > And
                      > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
                      > rightfully
                      > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
                      > they
                      > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
                      dead!
                      > >
                      > > Bob M.
                      > >
                      > > ****************************************************
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Arvind Sood
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â?" Try it today!
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      Arvind Sood


                      ---------------------------------
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                      ***************** HSS-Private *************

                      "Please note:The email domain of Hughes Software Systems Ltd. has been
                      changed to "hssworld.com" from hss.hns.com"

                      "DISCLAIMER: This message is proprietary to Hughes Software Systems
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                      solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may
                      contain privileged or
                      confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any
                      purpose other than for
                      what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please
                      notify the originator
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                      Arvind Sood


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                      "DISCLAIMER: This message is proprietary to Hughes Software Systems Limited (HSS) and is intended
                      solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or
                      confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for
                      what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator
                      immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly
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                      accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Arvind Sood
                      Vikas, You have not answered Alexander. In fact you seem have coined your own interpretation of enlightenment Some day , out of direct experience of course,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 17, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Vikas,
                        You have not answered Alexander. In fact you seem have coined your own interpretation of " enlightenment"
                        Some day , out of direct experience of course, you will abandon this futile debate in your mind and you will be truely enlightened.
                        Regards.
                        Arvind

                        vinagpal@... wrote:

                        Hi Alexander

                        >>Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:
                        >>"But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                        enlightenment."
                        >>this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach
                        oneself) to enlightenment, one must avoid >>attaching oneself to
                        enlightenment. how can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the
                        quest to avoid >>seeking enlightenment?

                        Your concern is very genuine. This is indeed a catchy situation.

                        When one is working towards enlightenment, one will (in my view)
                        be attached to enlightenment. This is because, mind has the life long
                        habit of getting attached with the desires/goals. So, it will habitually
                        get attached to enlightenment.
                        But as one gets closer, the habit weakens, and hence the
                        attachment weakens.
                        So, I feel that the attachment will most likely remain, and will
                        get weaker and weaker as we progress, and will vanish when we reach the
                        goal. [But, one needs to be atleast consciously aware that one should not
                        be attached to enlightenment. Otherwise, if the attachment to
                        enlightenment gets very strong, it becomes a strong hinderance. A strongly
                        attached person will be involved in spirtual materialism, and will cease
                        progressing on the path. This is a very dangerous and hidden pitfall on
                        the royal road to freedom !!!]

                        Wishing You Happiness and Enlightenment
                        Vikas





                        Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                        To: <theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com>
                        cc:

                        Subject: RE: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                        earth?




                        Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:

                        "But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                        enlightenment."

                        this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach oneself)
                        to enlightenment, one must avoid attaching oneself to enlightenment. how
                        can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the quest to avoid
                        seeking enlightenment?

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Arvind Sood [mailto:sood_ar49@...]
                        Sent: Tue 11/16/2004 9:57 PM
                        To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this earth?


                        Dear Vikas,
                        Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever
                        enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after
                        that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?
                        And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                        Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums
                        of energy it goes through. You cannot because sometimes it is a wave and
                        at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just
                        an example)
                        Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which, I
                        think , has no limits. Try to define the end of the universe and you will
                        rob it of its essence.
                        Cheers!
                        Arvind
                        vinagpal@... wrote:

                        Hi Arvind,
                        Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
                        attached to detachment.
                        This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
                        enlightened being.
                        (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
                        and am working on it !! )

                        But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
                        even enlightenment.
                        I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
                        to go before I sleep !!!

                        From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
                        absolute truth" is true.
                        But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
                        truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
                        (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

                        I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
                        It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
                        same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
                        evaluating an event.
                        But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
                        intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
                        have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

                        Wishing You Happiness
                        Vikas





                        Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                        To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                        cc:

                        Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                        earth?




                        Dear Vikas,
                        Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
                        your detachment?
                        Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
                        " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
                        me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
                        There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
                        Cheers!
                        Arvind


                        Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

                        Hi All,
                        I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
                        meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
                        point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
                        the right viewpoint !
                        I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
                        attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
                        (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
                        attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
                        is not attached.)
                        One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

                        Now, how can one avoid attachment?

                        The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
                        eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
                        mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
                        about end of attachment)

                        When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
                        come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
                        freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
                        ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
                        fulfilled.

                        It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
                        successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
                        Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

                        Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

                        Wishing You Happiness
                        Vikas

                        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                        <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                        > Dear Bob,
                        > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
                        sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
                        heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
                        > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
                        e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
                        generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
                        intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
                        some
                        day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
                        futulity your argument.
                        > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
                        in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
                        Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
                        > Teke care Bob
                        > Arvind Sood
                        >
                        >
                        > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Arvind,
                        >
                        > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
                        of
                        > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
                        > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
                        > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
                        > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
                        > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
                        > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
                        > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
                        of
                        > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
                        > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
                        responsibility
                        > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
                        > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
                        > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
                        > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
                        > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
                        >
                        > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
                        >
                        > Bob M.
                        >
                        > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
                        > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
                        or
                        > the 'Other'.
                        >
                        > *************************************************
                        >
                        > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                        > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                        > > Dear Bob,
                        > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
                        > bicycles?
                        > > Think!
                        > > Arvind
                        > >
                        > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Arvind,
                        > >
                        > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
                        like
                        > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
                        > And
                        > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
                        > rightfully
                        > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
                        > they
                        > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
                        dead!
                        > >
                        > > Bob M.
                        > >
                        > > ****************************************************
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                        >
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                        >
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                        Service.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Arvind Sood
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! �?" Try it today!
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                      • vinagpal@hssworld.com
                        Hi Arvind and Alexander, I tried my best to answer, but am sorry if I confused further. By the way, I am open to the possibility of myself being confused and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 17, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Arvind and Alexander,
                          I tried my best to answer, but am sorry if I confused further.

                          By the way, I am open to the possibility of myself being confused
                          and puzzled, but do not really think so.
                          I realize that the most dangerous ignorance is the one, of which
                          one is un-aware !!!!
                          If you find some mis-conception of mine, kindly do correct it, and
                          help me improve !

                          Here are my thoughts.

                          I feel there is a difference between attachment and
                          desire/seeking. There can exist a strong desire without attachment.
                          I am attaching a FAQ on attachment. But the basic difference is as
                          follows. If one gets sad/depressed on non-fulfillment of desire, one was
                          attached.

                          So, one can/should have strong desire for enlightenment, and this
                          would serve as a strong propelling force for enlightenment.
                          But an attached person will typically put hurdles in the path by
                          doing the following (for example)
                          - One will think/worry about results very often, and waste
                          the energy/focus which could be given to the practice. (Imagine opening
                          the lid repeatedly to see if the food is cooked)
                          - One will generate anger/aversion towards the seemingly
                          slow progress. Patience is a must for success. And attachment hurts
                          patiences.
                          - etc.

                          So, this is why I feel that I should have a strong desire of my
                          goals, but I should not be attached to them. I should seek enlightenment
                          will all my energy, without being attached to it.

                          Now let us come to meaning of enlightenment.

                          Enlightenment carries the following meaning for me
                          - Knowing the ultimate truth by direct experience (devoid
                          of all imaginations, all theories, all heard wisdom, all intellectually
                          derived wisdom)
                          - Purifying the entire mind (doing away the impurities of
                          craving, aversion and ignorance)

                          Kindly correct me if you find some thing wrong.

                          Attachment (FAQ)
                          ---------------------------
                          1. You spoke about non-attachment to things. What about persons?

                          Yes, persons also. You have true love for the person, compassionate love
                          for this person, this is totally different. But when you have attachment,
                          then you don't have
                          love, you only love yourself, because you expect something -material,
                          emotional etc - from this person. With whomever you have attachment, you
                          are expecting
                          something in return. When you start truly loving this person, then you
                          only give, a one-way traffic. You don't expect anything in return, then
                          the attachment goes. The
                          tension goes. You are so happy.

                          2.How can the world function without attachment?

                          If parents were detached then they would not even care for their children.
                          How is it possible to love or be involved in life without attachment?
                          Detachment does not
                          mean indifference; it is correctly called "holy indifference". As a
                          parent, you must meet your responsibility to care for your child with all
                          your love, but without
                          clinging. Out of pure, selfless love you do your duty. Suppose you tend a
                          sick person, and despite your care, he does not recover. You don't start
                          crying; that would
                          be useless. With a balanced mind, you try to find another way to help him.
                          This is holy indifference : neither inaction or reaction, but real,
                          positive action with a
                          balanced mind.

                          3. Isn't performing a right action a kind of attachment?

                          No. It is simply doing your best, understanding that the results are
                          beyond your control. You do your job and leave the results to nature, to
                          Dhamma.

                          .....then it is being willing to make a mistake?

                          If you make a mistake you accept it, and try not to repeat it the next
                          time. Again you may fail; again you smile and try a different way. If you
                          can smile in the face of
                          failure, you are not attached. If failure depresses you and success makes
                          you elated, you are certainly attached.

                          Source of FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.htm

                          Wishing You Happiness
                          Vikas




                          Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                          To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                          cc:

                          Subject: RE: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                          earth?




                          Vikas,
                          You have not answered Alexander. In fact you seem have coined your own
                          interpretation of " enlightenment"
                          Some day , out of direct experience of course, you will abandon this
                          futile debate in your mind and you will be truely enlightened.
                          Regards.
                          Arvind

                          vinagpal@... wrote:

                          Hi Alexander

                          >>Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:
                          >>"But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                          enlightenment."
                          >>this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach
                          oneself) to enlightenment, one must avoid >>attaching oneself to
                          enlightenment. how can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the
                          quest to avoid >>seeking enlightenment?

                          Your concern is very genuine. This is indeed a catchy situation.

                          When one is working towards enlightenment, one will (in my view)
                          be attached to enlightenment. This is because, mind has the life long
                          habit of getting attached with the desires/goals. So, it will habitually
                          get attached to enlightenment.
                          But as one gets closer, the habit weakens, and hence the
                          attachment weakens.
                          So, I feel that the attachment will most likely remain, and will
                          get weaker and weaker as we progress, and will vanish when we reach the
                          goal. [But, one needs to be atleast consciously aware that one should not
                          be attached to enlightenment. Otherwise, if the attachment to
                          enlightenment gets very strong, it becomes a strong hinderance. A strongly
                          attached person will be involved in spirtual materialism, and will cease
                          progressing on the path. This is a very dangerous and hidden pitfall on
                          the royal road to freedom !!!]

                          Wishing You Happiness and Enlightenment
                          Vikas





                          Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                          To: <theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com>
                          cc:

                          Subject: RE: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                          earth?




                          Vikas, i'm sorry, i'm just really confused at the moment. you said:

                          "But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to even
                          enlightenment."

                          this seems to be a self-defeating proposition. to become (attach oneself)
                          to enlightenment, one must avoid attaching oneself to enlightenment. how
                          can seeking enlightenment also simultaneously be the quest to avoid
                          seeking enlightenment?

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Arvind Sood [mailto:sood_ar49@...]
                          Sent: Tue 11/16/2004 9:57 PM
                          To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this earth?


                          Dear Vikas,
                          Why detachment is the precondition to enlightenment? Can you be ever
                          enlightened fully? Will that state not be a state of death because after
                          that there would be nothing more to get enlightened about?
                          And what is direct experience and why truth is linked to it ?
                          Do you have the direct experience of an atom, or an electron,or quantums
                          of energy it goes through. You cannot because sometimes it is a wave and
                          at others its not...yet there is an absolute truth about it.( This is just
                          an example)
                          Human knowledge and experience is ever expanding into the unknown which, I
                          think , has no limits. Try to define the end of the universe and you will
                          rob it of its essence.
                          Cheers!
                          Arvind
                          vinagpal@... wrote:

                          Hi Arvind,
                          Yes. I am attached to truth. I am attached to enlightenment. I am
                          attached to detachment.
                          This attachment is the hurdle which keeps me from being an
                          enlightened being.
                          (I am attached to so many worldly things too. I know the problem,
                          and am working on it !! )

                          But, If and when I become enlightened, I will not be attached to
                          even enlightenment.
                          I am working on my attachment, and trying to be detached !! Miles
                          to go before I sleep !!!

                          From a certain perspective, the statement that "there is no
                          absolute truth" is true.
                          But, from certain other perspectives, there are some absolute
                          truths. When one realizes the ultimate absolute truth by direct experience
                          (and not intellectualization), one is enlightened naturally !!!

                          I agree that it is difficult to pass a judgement intellectually.
                          It is difficult due to the different viewpoints by which we look at the
                          same events. It is difficult because we imagine different contexts while
                          evaluating an event.
                          But, when one realizes the truth directly, one is not
                          intellectualizing. So, that direct realization of truth is absolute. I
                          have not had it yet. If I had it, I would have been enlightened !!!

                          Wishing You Happiness
                          Vikas





                          Please respond to theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com

                          To: theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com
                          cc:

                          Subject: Re: [The Existential Society] Re: Are YOU beautifying this
                          earth?




                          Dear Vikas,
                          Are you not attached to the truth you are seeking? Are you not attached to
                          your detachment?
                          Its difficult to pass a judgement.According to Nietzsche:
                          " Tell me what is 'your truth' and I will tell you 'my truth'. Don't ask
                          me what is 'the truth' for 'THE TRUTH' does not exist".
                          There is no truth, there are only prespectives ,including this one!
                          Cheers!
                          Arvind


                          Vikas Nagpal <vinagpal@...> wrote:

                          Hi All,
                          I feel the words of Krishnamurti have a very profound and subtle
                          meaning, and the same words taken literally from some different view
                          point do not make much sense. I feel the words need to be read with
                          the right viewpoint !
                          I feel that one should have desires, but one should not be
                          attached to them. There is a thin line dividing desire and attachment.
                          (If when desire does not gets fulfilled, one gets sad, one was
                          attached. But if one tries again smilingly, without getting sad, one
                          is not attached.)
                          One can have strong desires, but one should not be attached.

                          Now, how can one avoid attachment?

                          The realization of truth (by direct experience) is the only way of
                          eradicating attachment from the root (otherwise, the sub-conscious
                          mind will always remain attached, even if we intellectualize a lot
                          about end of attachment)

                          When one knows the truth, one is freed from the attachment. If we
                          come to know that we are attached to bubbles, we will laugh, and be
                          freed from attachment !! We will still have desires, but will know the
                          ultimate truth, and be happy even when the desire does not get
                          fulfilled.

                          It turns out that a detached person is more productive, more
                          successful (even in worldly life !), more useful to the society.
                          Attachment is ignorance. Ignorance makes us weak and limited.

                          Refer the FAQ : http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/question.html

                          Wishing You Happiness
                          Vikas

                          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                          <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                          > Dear Bob,
                          > Nietzsche spoke of 'Will to power' as the ultimate goal. It makes
                          sense. Certainly it makes more sense than K's vague' following one's
                          heart' or universal love or some such utopia.
                          > How do you explain the misery of an entire people ( Palestenians
                          e.g.) who have been driven from thier homes to live as refugees for
                          generations without a hope. If only they had a military and
                          intellectual might far in excess of their adversaries, they would
                          some
                          day redeem themselves. This is just an example to bring home the
                          futulity your argument.
                          > Love, affection and all the rest you talk of are fine. But you live
                          in an imperfect world. ( Nothing wrong with imperfection according to
                          Nietzsche) Just enjoy the contradiction.
                          > Teke care Bob
                          > Arvind Sood
                          >
                          >
                          > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Arvind,
                          >
                          > If there is a difference, it's only in one's head. The measure
                          of
                          > a man is in the fullness of his being, fullness of his heart,
                          > fullness of his manhood; not by the size, type, or price of the
                          > vehicle he drives(if any at all). Someday perhaps we'll learn this
                          > simple lesson universally. Till then the fat cat American style dog
                          > eat dog m.o. shall carry on and spill over to who knows where next.
                          > That is until it all collapses under the weight of its gross
                          > falseness. Have you ever spent time in this once upon a time land
                          of
                          > the free and the home of the brave, and with clear eyes seen what
                          > ambition sorely lacking in honesty, moral values, and
                          responsibility
                          > has wrought, Arvind? From the inside I find very, very few among us
                          > who are not infected, to the death of their God given human spirits
                          > and capacity to know love, by greed, ambition, fear, and self-
                          > centeredness over here in this present day insane asylum called
                          > various fine sounding things like freedom and democracy.
                          >
                          > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/57
                          >
                          > Bob M.
                          >
                          > P.S. Krishnamurti never sought for others to follow him, but rather
                          > that they learn to follow the dictates of their own hearts or God
                          or
                          > the 'Other'.
                          >
                          > *************************************************
                          >
                          > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Arvind Sood
                          > <sood_ar49@y...> wrote:
                          > > Dear Bob,
                          > > Do you really think there is no difference in riding Cadillacs &
                          > bicycles?
                          > > Think!
                          > > Arvind
                          > >
                          > > new_trail_blazer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Arvind,
                          > >
                          > > Don't forget to put old Vivekananda up there with K & N. He,
                          like
                          > > K, spent time in both countries and saw their 'living standards'.
                          > And
                          > > yet in his last days all he saw too in men everywhere (and
                          > rightfully
                          > > so) was loveless, self-absorbed, hence dead, selves. And whether
                          > they
                          > > rode in Cadillacs or on bicycles mattered little. Dead was/is
                          dead!
                          > >
                          > > Bob M.
                          > >
                          > > ****************************************************
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          > Arvind Sood
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
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                          >
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