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"Chance and error".....

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  • new_trail_blazer
    Everyone who has awakened from the first dream of youth will realize, if his judgment is not paralyzed, that this world is the kingdom of chance and error, of
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 1, 2004
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      "Everyone who has awakened from the first dream of youth will
      realize, if his judgment is not paralyzed, that this world is the
      kingdom of chance and error, of folly and wickedness. Hence,
      everything better only struggles through with difficulty. What is
      noble and wise seldom attains to expression. The absurd and perverse
      in thought, the dull and tasteless in art, the wicked and deceitful
      in action, assert a real supremacy broken only by brief interuptions.
      In vain the sufferer calls on his gods for help. This irremediable
      evil is only the mirror of the will, of which himself is the
      objectification. To me, optimism, when it is not merely the
      thoughtless verbalizing of those who have nothing but words under
      their low foreheads, is not merely absurd; it is wicked. It is a
      bitter mockery of the unspeakable misery of mankind. To me, as to the
      writers of the Gospels, the 'world' and 'evil' are almost synonynous
      terms." Schopenhauer

      Many years ago I coined a short poem encompassing the essence of the
      above view, as follows:

      Ignorance abounds,
      The Truth seldom sounds,
      Oh Lord what is one to do?

      The wicked prevail,
      Causing to fail,
      Even your chosen few.

      Bob M.

      P. S. I think Schopenhauer should have said above that, 'everything
      better only struggles through with (GREAT) difficulty'.
    • right2neil
      Hi Bob, I like Schopenhauer s comment that It s very necessary that a man should be appraised early in life that it is a masquerade in which he finds himself.
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 3, 2004
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        Hi Bob,
        I like Schopenhauer's comment that

        It's very necessary that a man should be appraised early in life
        that it is a masquerade in which he finds himself. For otherwise
        there are many things which he will fail to understand.

        It runs parallel with Vernon's comment that human society is simply
        men and women pretending that the game of pretense is not going on.

        Ignorance certainly abounds. Would you agree that the first order
        in being free of all ignorance would have to be to see clearly how
        unfree we are, which is a task calling for all the best in us. It
        seems extremely difficult to get past a man's imagination of himself
        as being a perfectly free individual. Whether unfree of daily
        irritations, fears, desires etc.. only the man who realizes his
        imprisonment will have the power to escape. But unfortunately the
        real difficulty must lie in getting a man who does not know to admit
        that he does not know.

        Regards
        Neil
      • new_trail_blazer
        Hello again Neil, Sorry for the holdup Neil, but between trying to find a passage from George Fox s journal, which paralleled some my early experiences rather
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 3, 2004
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          Hello again Neil,

          Sorry for the holdup Neil, but between trying to find a passage
          from George Fox's journal, which paralleled some my early experiences
          rather well, along with getting my new junker on the road, I've been
          pretty well tied up the past day or so. Your mention of
          Bunyan's 'Pilgrims Progress' reminded me of a piece by Fox that I
          found years ago in 'Varieties of Religious Experience' by William
          James. If I do find it I'll place it in here later. I've read only
          bits and pieces of PP. I've always been a stickler for reading only
          down to earth, as it really happened, no-frills, non-fiction
          material, biographies being probably my favorite of all.

          What do you think Schopenhauer meant by being 'appraised' early
          in life of the masquerade in which one finds himself? How does this
          take place?

          And Vernon was clearly aware of the mass 'pretense' that's
          everywhere, but do you think either of them really pin-pointed the
          exact root of the problem and its immensity? Actually I don't think
          there's nearly as much pretending going on as Vernon thought. The
          species I find is conscienceless nearly en masse.

          Einstein too commented on the unlimited 'stupidity' of human
          beings, but offered no way out either.

          My view is that only a small precentage of mankind is wakeable.
          That is in the context that they can genuinely become fully human,
          fully alive, fully wise and understanding. And I go here to the
          prophecy of Daniel wherein he stated that, "many of them that sleep
          in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and
          some to everlasting shame and contempt. I think Daniel had it close
          here, yet I don't subscribe at all to everlasting punishment of any
          sort for anyone. So I foresee that those unfortunately malformed in
          mind and body and thereby lacking in conscience and sense perception
          of rightful or truthful being and actions, and who overwhelmingly
          rule in numbers (and assert a real supremacy-as per Schop.), will
          eventually bring about a complete collapse of things, or create
          an "abomination that maketh desolate". But in the meantime, the
          awakened one's are not really truly 'free' in the sense that you and
          many others often seem to allude to, but bound to doing the will of
          the Creator, which is to ever more increasingly align one's every
          word, though, and deed with Truth, and as a result help awaken as
          many of the wakeable as possible so as to be available to set up his
          eventually coming Kingdom of peace on earth, good will toward men.
          And being of rigorous service in this greatest of undertakings alone
          comes true freedom, true peace, and true sense of purpose, right here-
          right now. And if by our actions of Truth, there are those who are
          brought to shame that's insurmountable, save for their demise, so be
          that too. Eternity welcomes and blesses all, except for the
          persistent and perpetual mischief-makers, or the doers of the old
          monkey business.

          You may find the essay at the following link of interest:

          http://www.barrylong.org/terrorism.html

          peace,

          Bob M.

          ********************************************

          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "right2neil"
          <right2neil@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Bob,
          > I like Schopenhauer's comment that
          >
          > It's very necessary that a man should be appraised early in life
          > that it is a masquerade in which he finds himself. For otherwise
          > there are many things which he will fail to understand.
          >
          > It runs parallel with Vernon's comment that human society is simply
          > men and women pretending that the game of pretense is not going on.
          >
          > Ignorance certainly abounds. Would you agree that the first order
          > in being free of all ignorance would have to be to see clearly how
          > unfree we are, which is a task calling for all the best in us. It
          > seems extremely difficult to get past a man's imagination of
          himself
          > as being a perfectly free individual. Whether unfree of daily
          > irritations, fears, desires etc.. only the man who realizes his
          > imprisonment will have the power to escape. But unfortunately the
          > real difficulty must lie in getting a man who does not know to
          admit
          > that he does not know.
          >
          > Regards
          > Neil
        • Monte Morris
          Sorry to interupt here, but I d like a clarification of what you claim below. I know very few people who believe that they are completely and totally free, and
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2004
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            Sorry to interupt here, but I'd like a clarification
            of what you claim below. I know very few people who
            believe that they are completely and totally free, and
            doubt that that anyone will hold to the idea after
            being confronted with the idea that everyone, as a
            social individual, is limited in their freedom by
            social norms, institutions of power, obligations
            forced upon them, and obligations that they readily
            accept out of friendship or love of family, etc...
            What exactly do you have in mind with the claim people
            believe that they are "perfectly free individuals?"
            --Monte
            --- right2neil <right2neil@...> wrote:

            >
            > Hi Bob,
            > I like Schopenhauer's comment that
            >
            > It's very necessary that a man should be appraised
            > early in life
            > that it is a masquerade in which he finds himself.
            > For otherwise
            > there are many things which he will fail to
            > understand.
            >
            > It runs parallel with Vernon's comment that human
            > society is simply
            > men and women pretending that the game of pretense
            > is not going on.
            >
            > Ignorance certainly abounds. Would you agree that
            > the first order
            > in being free of all ignorance would have to be to
            > see clearly how
            > unfree we are, which is a task calling for all the
            > best in us. It
            > seems extremely difficult to get past a man's
            > imagination of himself
            > as being a perfectly free individual. Whether unfree
            > of daily
            > irritations, fears, desires etc.. only the man who
            > realizes his
            > imprisonment will have the power to escape. But
            > unfortunately the
            > real difficulty must lie in getting a man who does
            > not know to admit
            > that he does not know.
            >
            > Regards
            > Neil
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            =====
            --Monte Morris
            Philosopher wannabe
            Japan
            "Needs to find a good quote"





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          • right2neil
            Hi Monte, You re certainly right that a clarification is in order. You asked, what exactly do you have in mind with the claim people believe that they are
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2004
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              Hi Monte,
              You're certainly right that a clarification is in order.

              You asked, what exactly do you have in mind with the claim people
              believe that they are "perfectly free individuals"

              I was certainly presumptuous in assuming that "people believe they
              are perfectly free" and agree with you that in fact few people would
              ever claim this. What i was thinking was along the lines of some
              friends who associate freedom with wealth creation, the ability to
              travel or just to do or what they please, however erroneous this is.

              Thak you
              Neil

              ps:I'm sure Bob would love you to converse with him :)
            • neurom9999
              Hi, Monte, I don t have any substantial comments to make yet on EITHER/OR, but I m glad you re back.
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 9, 2004
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                Hi, Monte,

                I don't have any substantial comments to make yet on EITHER/OR, but
                I'm glad you're back.

                ----Dennis





                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                > Sorry to interupt here, but I'd like a clarification
                > of what you claim below. I know very few people who
                > believe that they are completely and totally free, and
                > doubt that that anyone will hold to the idea after
                > being confronted with the idea that everyone, as a
                > social individual, is limited in their freedom by
                > social norms, institutions of power, obligations
                > forced upon them, and obligations that they readily
                > accept out of friendship or love of family, etc...
                > What exactly do you have in mind with the claim people
                > believe that they are "perfectly free individuals?"
                > --Monte
                > --- right2neil <right2neil@y...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > Hi Bob,
                > > I like Schopenhauer's comment that
                > >
                > > It's very necessary that a man should be appraised
                > > early in life
                > > that it is a masquerade in which he finds himself.
                > > For otherwise
                > > there are many things which he will fail to
                > > understand.
                > >
                > > It runs parallel with Vernon's comment that human
                > > society is simply
                > > men and women pretending that the game of pretense
                > > is not going on.
                > >
                > > Ignorance certainly abounds. Would you agree that
                > > the first order
                > > in being free of all ignorance would have to be to
                > > see clearly how
                > > unfree we are, which is a task calling for all the
                > > best in us. It
                > > seems extremely difficult to get past a man's
                > > imagination of himself
                > > as being a perfectly free individual. Whether unfree
                > > of daily
                > > irritations, fears, desires etc.. only the man who
                > > realizes his
                > > imprisonment will have the power to escape. But
                > > unfortunately the
                > > real difficulty must lie in getting a man who does
                > > not know to admit
                > > that he does not know.
                > >
                > > Regards
                > > Neil
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > =====
                > --Monte Morris
                > Philosopher wannabe
                > Japan
                > "Needs to find a good quote"
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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              • Monte Morris
                Dennis, Thanks for the welcome back. I m not sure just how back I ll be, but I ll try to comment once in awhile. Life s been busy with work and stuff, so I
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 14, 2004
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                  Dennis,
                  Thanks for the welcome back. I'm not sure just how
                  "back" I'll be, but I'll try to comment once in
                  awhile. Life's been busy with work and stuff, so I
                  haven't had time to keep up with e-mail and forums
                  such as this.
                  And work has just entered the busy time of year once
                  again. Ugh...
                  If you haven't gotten to Either/Or, then i hope that
                  you've had time to get into some other good stuff. I'd
                  be interested to here what you've been working on.

                  --Monte

                  --- neurom9999 <neurom9999@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Hi, Monte,
                  >
                  > I don't have any substantial comments to make yet on
                  > EITHER/OR, but
                  > I'm glad you're back.
                  >
                  > ----Dennis
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
                  > Morris
                  > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                  > > Sorry to interupt here, but I'd like a
                  > clarification
                  > > of what you claim below. I know very few people
                  > who
                  > > believe that they are completely and totally free,
                  > and
                  > > doubt that that anyone will hold to the idea after
                  > > being confronted with the idea that everyone, as a
                  > > social individual, is limited in their freedom by
                  > > social norms, institutions of power, obligations
                  > > forced upon them, and obligations that they
                  > readily
                  > > accept out of friendship or love of family, etc...
                  > > What exactly do you have in mind with the claim
                  > people
                  > > believe that they are "perfectly free
                  > individuals?"
                  > > --Monte
                  > > --- right2neil <right2neil@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Bob,
                  > > > I like Schopenhauer's comment that
                  > > >
                  > > > It's very necessary that a man should be
                  > appraised
                  > > > early in life
                  > > > that it is a masquerade in which he finds
                  > himself.
                  > > > For otherwise
                  > > > there are many things which he will fail to
                  > > > understand.
                  > > >
                  > > > It runs parallel with Vernon's comment that
                  > human
                  > > > society is simply
                  > > > men and women pretending that the game of
                  > pretense
                  > > > is not going on.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ignorance certainly abounds. Would you agree
                  > that
                  > > > the first order
                  > > > in being free of all ignorance would have to be
                  > to
                  > > > see clearly how
                  > > > unfree we are, which is a task calling for all
                  > the
                  > > > best in us. It
                  > > > seems extremely difficult to get past a man's
                  > > > imagination of himself
                  > > > as being a perfectly free individual. Whether
                  > unfree
                  > > > of daily
                  > > > irritations, fears, desires etc.. only the man
                  > who
                  > > > realizes his
                  > > > imprisonment will have the power to escape. But
                  > > > unfortunately the
                  > > > real difficulty must lie in getting a man who
                  > does
                  > > > not know to admit
                  > > > that he does not know.
                  > > >
                  > > > Regards
                  > > > Neil
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > =====
                  > > --Monte Morris
                  > > Philosopher wannabe
                  > > Japan
                  > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________
                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                  > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  =====
                  --Monte Morris
                  Philosopher wannabe
                  Japan
                  "Needs to find a good quote"




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                • Monte Morris
                  Niel, Thanks for the clarification. I suppose most people in the US would claim that since it s their life, they can do whatever they want, even if it s
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 14, 2004
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                    Niel,
                    Thanks for the clarification. I suppose most people in
                    the US would claim that since "it's their life, they
                    can do whatever they want," even if it's
                    self-destructive, and that is freedom. At least they
                    use such an arguement when it's convenient for them,
                    especially as teenagers.

                    But most people also hold the opposite position that
                    others infringe on their freedom and hold them back,
                    whether it be in the workplace, or parents staying
                    firm with their child, etc. At some level, people
                    probably believe that they are "completely free", but
                    don't connect it with their daily lives and the facts
                    of being limited by others in a given social context,
                    etc.

                    I'd argue that the reason they think they are free is
                    because US culture repeats it ad naseum and tells them
                    that they can do whatever they like whenever they
                    like, and that anyone can be President of the US if
                    they just put their mind to it. But most people are
                    aware that not everyone is born into a position where
                    they can become president of the US, be a CEO of a
                    major oil company, has the natural good looks to
                    become a pop star, etc. Most people know that in order
                    to meet their basic survival needs that they have to
                    conform to a market-based system and work a job, where
                    their schedule is determined by someone else and in
                    order to keep that job that they have to meet certain
                    expectations placed on them by other people. The
                    normal person's failure to see the contradiction in
                    their views, does not, at least to me, seem to
                    indicate that is what they really believe. Mature
                    people understand and accept that they are not totally
                    free, even if they don't accept this position in the
                    abstract, they accept it in their normal, daily life.

                    --Monte

                    --- right2neil <right2neil@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Hi Monte,
                    > You're certainly right that a clarification is in
                    > order.
                    >
                    > You asked, what exactly do you have in mind with the
                    > claim people
                    > believe that they are "perfectly free individuals"
                    >
                    > I was certainly presumptuous in assuming that
                    > "people believe they
                    > are perfectly free" and agree with you that in fact
                    > few people would
                    > ever claim this. What i was thinking was along the
                    > lines of some
                    > friends who associate freedom with wealth creation,
                    > the ability to
                    > travel or just to do or what they please, however
                    > erroneous this is.
                    >
                    > Thak you
                    > Neil
                    >
                    > ps:I'm sure Bob would love you to converse with him
                    > :)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    =====
                    --Monte Morris
                    Philosopher wannabe
                    Japan
                    "Needs to find a good quote"




                    _______________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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                  • neurom9999
                    Monte, I find myself in a situation that seems similar to yours. So many demands at work. I ve taken on the task of becoming an on-the-job instructor for new
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 17, 2004
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                      Monte,

                      I find myself in a situation that seems similar to yours. So many
                      demands at work. I've taken on the task of becoming an on-the-job
                      instructor for new students, and they are wearing me out.

                      Then, too, I received the sad news that my Barbara's cousin, Gussie,
                      has died. He was a big-hearted man, and would have done anything for
                      Barbara. And, he did so much. I feel so sorry for his wife, Marlene.

                      I'm also involved in some un-asked-for legal complications. But such
                      is the fabric of modern life.

                      I've had very little time to read in the frenzied pace of my current
                      quest. I keep hoping to reach some kind of plateau whereupon I can
                      read without distraction or other-directedness. I look forward to
                      having a substantive discussion of Kierkegaard (and, perhaps, other
                      topics) with you in the future.


                      ----Dennis




                      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                      <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                      > Dennis,
                      > Thanks for the welcome back. I'm not sure just how
                      > "back" I'll be, but I'll try to comment once in
                      > awhile. Life's been busy with work and stuff, so I
                      > haven't had time to keep up with e-mail and forums
                      > such as this.
                      > And work has just entered the busy time of year once
                      > again. Ugh...
                      > If you haven't gotten to Either/Or, then i hope that
                      > you've had time to get into some other good stuff. I'd
                      > be interested to here what you've been working on.
                      >
                      > --Monte
                      >
                      > --- neurom9999 <neurom9999@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Hi, Monte,
                      > >
                      > > I don't have any substantial comments to make yet on
                      > > EITHER/OR, but
                      > > I'm glad you're back.
                      > >
                      > > ----Dennis
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
                      > > Morris
                      > > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                      > > > Sorry to interupt here, but I'd like a
                      > > clarification
                      > > > of what you claim below. I know very few people
                      > > who
                      > > > believe that they are completely and totally free,
                      > > and
                      > > > doubt that that anyone will hold to the idea after
                      > > > being confronted with the idea that everyone, as a
                      > > > social individual, is limited in their freedom by
                      > > > social norms, institutions of power, obligations
                      > > > forced upon them, and obligations that they
                      > > readily
                      > > > accept out of friendship or love of family, etc...
                      > > > What exactly do you have in mind with the claim
                      > > people
                      > > > believe that they are "perfectly free
                      > > individuals?"
                      > > > --Monte
                      > > > --- right2neil <right2neil@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Bob,
                      > > > > I like Schopenhauer's comment that
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It's very necessary that a man should be
                      > > appraised
                      > > > > early in life
                      > > > > that it is a masquerade in which he finds
                      > > himself.
                      > > > > For otherwise
                      > > > > there are many things which he will fail to
                      > > > > understand.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It runs parallel with Vernon's comment that
                      > > human
                      > > > > society is simply
                      > > > > men and women pretending that the game of
                      > > pretense
                      > > > > is not going on.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ignorance certainly abounds. Would you agree
                      > > that
                      > > > > the first order
                      > > > > in being free of all ignorance would have to be
                      > > to
                      > > > > see clearly how
                      > > > > unfree we are, which is a task calling for all
                      > > the
                      > > > > best in us. It
                      > > > > seems extremely difficult to get past a man's
                      > > > > imagination of himself
                      > > > > as being a perfectly free individual. Whether
                      > > unfree
                      > > > > of daily
                      > > > > irritations, fears, desires etc.. only the man
                      > > who
                      > > > > realizes his
                      > > > > imprisonment will have the power to escape. But
                      > > > > unfortunately the
                      > > > > real difficulty must lie in getting a man who
                      > > does
                      > > > > not know to admit
                      > > > > that he does not know.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regards
                      > > > > Neil
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > =====
                      > > > --Monte Morris
                      > > > Philosopher wannabe
                      > > > Japan
                      > > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > __________________________________
                      > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                      > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > =====
                      > --Monte Morris
                      > Philosopher wannabe
                      > Japan
                      > "Needs to find a good quote"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _______________________________
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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