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Re: A case of bad faith?

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  • neurom9999
    Dear Een, I suppose that, at bottom, I don t perceive that the self qua self is bound by any ethical requirement which pre-empts the individual s freedom,
    Message 1 of 61 , Aug 27, 2004
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      Dear Een,

      I suppose that, at bottom, I don't perceive that the self qua self is
      bound by any ethical requirement which pre-empts the individual's
      freedom, responsibility, and burden of making choices--and existence
      or non-existence is a primary choice. We are dealing with extreme
      situations here: O.W.'s suicide, and an individual lying in a
      vegetative state on a hospital bed, continuing to exist without the
      capacity of choice, simply because a machine has taken over his
      cardio-respiratory functions.

      I must admit that I generally consider ethics in terms of an
      individual's relations with another. Concerning the self's ethical
      relations with itself, I believe the striving to be authentic is a
      major facet of the self's quest of becoming. I don't think in terms
      of ethical absolutes. We all know the conventional ethical
      principles, and we all know that behavior has consequences. We come
      into existence without our choosing. If we choose to continue to
      exist, then we make choices, we act, and we confront the consequences
      of our actions. In my opinion, arguing about ethics is not
      productive. I keep things simple: I see the self's ethical
      requirement toward itself consisting of the self accepting
      responsibilty for its own actions. And I see the self's ethical
      relationship to other selves as pretty much covered by the golden
      rule.

      Most suicides don't appear to be the product of a reasoned, measured
      choice. But, if an individual has chosen to express in his last will
      and testament that, should the occasion arise, he would not want to
      be kept in existence, without brain function, by mechanical means--
      then I submit that he has not breached any theoretical ethical
      requirement.

      ----Dennis



      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "Een Enkelte"
      <eenenkelte@y...> wrote:
      > Dear Dennis,
      >
      > Thank you for your reply, and further clarification. It may be that
      > the difference in the thoughts behind our expressions may also now
      be
      > clarified.
      >
      > You write that (my formatting):
      >
      > ----To me there is a world of difference between
      > i) not accepting oneself as the self one actually is (bad faith)
      > and
      > ii) accepting oneself as the self one actually is, but choosing to
      no
      > longer exist--in response to ethical choices.
      >
      > For my part, this is exactly the sort of distinguishing that I
      resist.
      > The ethical requirement emphasises precisely this: that one exists.
      > It is in existence, within one's existence, that one is becoming.
      > When a self relates itself to itself in relation to an absolute,
      and
      > that self (here it is) EXISTS - and does not forget this; then the
      > absolute appears within existence as a REQUIREMENT. Further, the
      > ethical absolute, since it is an absolute which is related to by
      the
      > self in relating to itself as the positive third (that is this self
      > has posited itself, relates itself to itself;which was is a willing
      > to be oneself) appears as a requirement with regard to willing and
      > therefore ACTION; that is, the requirement is with regard to
      > becoming, becoming more able to act in accordance with the
      > requirement, ie a TASK.
      > Becoming is within existence; Eternity is finished, is complete.
      > It is certain then that one can only relate oneself to the ethical
      > requirement WITHIN EXISTENCE; that it is only within existance that
      > one can act according to it (in the relating itself to itself in
      its
      > ethical understanding of itself, and so relating itself to the
      TASK.
      > Note: It is through this relating of the self, by means of the
      > eternal, absolute requirement of the ethical, that the self may
      > perceive its eternal validity).
      >
      > To step away from existence is therefore to step away from the
      task,
      > the arena of the ethical requirement and the self's own
      understanding
      > of itself.
      >
      > Put again the way we started: Ethically viewed, the requirement to
      > become oneself is understood to be the task of concretion. That one
      > be oneself is understood to mean that one be willing to be the self
      > that one actually is, that one be willing to EXIST - as oneself.
      >
      > Your distinction, however, seems to imply the self may take itself
      > along as it leaves existence, that it remains itself self as it
      > leaves existence.
      > Now this may be possible; but not for an actual self, since if one
      > leaves existence one leaves also actuality; and not for the ethical
      > self, since it understands itself as a self that is bound to a task
      > (itself) within existence.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      >
      > Een Enkelte.
    • new_trail_blazer
      Hello again Helen, Seek and ye shall find Helen. I m surely rootin for you. And let no man, woman, or child get in your way either(Luke 18:29-30). Do you feel
      Message 61 of 61 , Sep 14, 2004
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        Hello again Helen,

        Seek and ye shall find Helen. I'm surely rootin' for you. And let
        no man, woman, or child get in your way either(Luke 18:29-30). Do you
        feel a deep inner compulsion or 'calling' toward 'self-discovery',
        rather than simply because it's the trendy 'in thing' to do, which,
        now-a-days especially, seems to be an overwhelmingly prevalent
        mindset?

        Beware of the many false and severely limited gurus, groups,
        followers, religions, etc. everywhere. And the lies, schemes, and
        dreams are slick and thick in all arenas. Take what you need(that
        which edifies) and let the rest Helen, which is not always an easy
        thing to do, and the task of which becomes part of your very own
        trials and tribulations in the growth of wisdom and fullness of being.

        And likewise be watchful of the many unfortunate intellectually
        warped 'space cadet' types who serve for little more than to get
        their jollies off playing with people's heads, especially here on the
        net, along with putting a drag on life wherever they may happen to
        be. Christ spoke of the many wolves, and they sure do come in all
        sorts of fine looking clothing in these last days. Love them but keep
        your distance.

        Eclecticism, I feel, is the best approach and the one I've been on
        for many years, though more and more it seems that I'm really a
        Christian at heart, though one without a church or friends.
        Biographies of those from all walks of life who followed the beat of
        a different drummer were, for me, the best help when it came to
        reading, which I've done much of over the years, and still do. My path
        (and one which I find most perfect) remains AA's 12 steps which were
        formulated from Christian principles, though free of the air of
        authority, hero worship, doctrines, dogmas, thou shall nots, gross
        limitations, and just plain lies, as is so prevalent in present day
        Christendom virtually everywhere.

        Nietzsche and J. Krishnamurti were perhaps my best teachers,
        although after many years on the mountain-side, I've come to view
        Krishnamurti as well intentioned, wise, and even enlightened in a
        sense, but essentially just another false prophet with an anti-
        religious bent who, as a result, has done far more harm than good.

        I know little about St. Vitus Dance or epilepsy, except once again
        that my mom was said to have had the former, and that seldom do you
        hear the term anymore like you did years ago. I do know however, that
        the so-called experts very often don't have a clue about many things
        either, which is scary, but a fact. One needs to get smart for their
        own sake Helen, especially in these last days. The striving for the
        almighty buck has gotten even good men's minds badly warped, often
        making them propagators of lies and producers and perpetuators of
        suffering. Seems, for instance, we seem to have a chemical drug or
        fix for everything now-a-days, and they don't come cheap, nor with
        any guarantees either, save for their comsumption filling people's
        pocket-books very well.

        You mention your interest in the connection between neurological
        conditions and insightfulness and brilliance. My interest in this
        area would include, and especially, sensitivity too, along with the
        importance of the early formative years and their effect on the
        mind/brain development. As I find insightfulness and brilliance alone
        don't necessarily make for a wholesome and well-rounded human being,
        and very often quite far from it. Einstein comes to mind here for one.

        At the following url, I have placed some ideas I've found
        insightful and helpful over the years, including some on the early
        formative years:

        http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/soar_like_an_eagle/

        'Sci-Fi' is a field I have no interest in whatsoever. I suppose
        it's because of my inherent down to earth, hands on, nothing but the
        truth nature. Nor was I ever part of the drug, sex, & rock and roll
        scene either, thank God. Although I do enjoy nearly all kinds of
        music, but again, I never had a need to be part of any scenes.
        Actually and in retrospect I've always been an 'outsider lookin' in'
        and a loner, and remain that very same way today, though now and
        finally with a clear understanding of life and self, along with
        having recaptured a happy heart and sane mind. Though not without
        also having to bear at times a deeply felt sorrow, which sometimes
        borders on feelings of madness. But my co-pilot, Karen, keeps me
        living on, though often I'd just as soon be back 'home' once again.

        Best wishes Helen,

        Bob M.

        P.S. "And so long as you haven't experienced this: to die and so to
        grow, you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth." Goethe

        And this is so whether ye be a friend or a foe of the (dark) earth, I
        would add.....Helen.

        *********************************************************

        > Hi Bob,

        > I'd say thats more than many and I'm not talking numbers here...
        > I have been reading your contributions to the Kexiles. Tho' I know
        nothing about the guru in question at this point I like your
        responses.....your tune is melodic.
        > For some time I have been deeply engaged in the intriguing business
        of self discovery. A journey that's taken me through parts of, some
        of, the sometimes almost impossible-to-fathom tomes of the great
        existentialist philosophers and personality theorists, to the
        writings of the Sartre and the Beats to contemporaries like Tom
        Robbins, Taoism, Buddhism and all kinds of related and unrelated
        stuff..................Trying discover about me, being and the
        meaning of life. Strange how one can go along in a complete vombee
        like state for the majority of ones life then all of a sudden the
        bottom drops out of your world and there's nothing holding you up
        anymore.
        > I was looking for your mail about St Vallias Dance and your
        brothers, which I seem to have lost...I had never heard of this
        condition, which is odd since my oldest daughter is a JRA sufferer
        another autoimmune illness, luckily St V's D must be pretty rare.
        > I have been looking into the connection between neurological
        conditions and insightfulness and brilliance (which is a subjective
        term... I've chosen to use nevertheless)....Yes, Nijinsky's diaries
        and those writings of Dick after his 'visions' (the sci-fi writer
        described by Dennis) would be good to read....most of the stuff on
        the websites is just too brief and tantalizing and there's a lot
        about entertainers...brilliant musicians who were often heavy drug
        users.
        >
        > friend of the earth if not the world

        > Helen
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