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Re: [The Existential Society] The Basic Message....Proofs for God's right of Worship

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  • A. W.
    My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51. My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and become a ghost and have fun scaring people. Then when i get bored
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 23, 2004
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      My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51.
      My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and become a ghost and have fun scaring people. Then when
      i get bored i will go to heaven and smoke an ethereal marijuana joint with god.

      --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
      > AW,
      > Tell me, who created your brain?.
      > Where does your soul go when you die?.
      > My best wishes?
      >
      > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A. W." <altool4@y...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
      > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about concepts like
      > creation, supreme being or "reason
      > > for existence" like if you have already find their meaning. I
      > understand you need security and
      > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life, but let me tell
      > you, do not be sattisfied, never
      > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe is all we got.
      > Our concept of the universe
      > > keeps changing throught human evolution and knowledge is relative,
      > you need to understand
      > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and concepts.
      > Hopefully, people will understand
      > > religion and government are just forms of manipulation and control
      > of the human, in his
      > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in society.
      > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW, before is too late!.
      > Kill the god image of all of
      > > this religions and find your way to understand existence and
      > program your reality into your brain.
      > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic society,
      > understand power and control, reality is
      > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of paths you can
      > choose from, thats what makes
      > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make everything eternal, the
      > same way you and your brain can
      > > reach eternity in reality.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
      > > > Helen,
      > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your creator & my
      > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason for our
      > existence,
      > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief stay on the
      > planet
      > > > Earth.
      > > >
      > > > With my best wishes.
      > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
      > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Ok Honey,
      > > > > Why this site?
      > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to Existentialism?
      > > > > I don't get it.
      > > > > Helen
      > > > >
      > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
      > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
      > > > >
      > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message of all the
      > previous
      > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid worshipping anything
      > besides
      > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing, directly or
      > > > indirectly.
      > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is contained in the opening
      > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat Al-Faatihah, verse
      > 4: "You
      > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek help."
      > > > >
      > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
      > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners with Him.
      > > > >
      > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of God be upon
      > him) is
      > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There is no god
      > worthy of
      > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that belief will be
      > granted
      > > > > paradise.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
      > > > >
      > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is the Creator and
      > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great Universe and
      > everything
      > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance, and could not
      > have
      > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is the only Creator
      > can
      > > > be
      > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul of each person.
      > God
      > > > > said in the Qur'an:
      > > > >
      > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
      > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth, and sent down
      > from
      > > > the
      > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for your
      > sustenance. He
      > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the Sea at His
      > command,
      > > > and
      > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He subjected for you the
      > Sun
      > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He subjected for you the
      > Night
      > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him for.
      > > > >
      > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's search for truth
      > as
      > > > an
      > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs will be rightly
      > guided
      > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
      > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
      > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and
      > the
      > > > > earth so that he would have faith with understanding and
      > > > certainty.
      > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he saw a star and
      > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he said: `I don't
      > like
      > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising up, he said:
      > `This is
      > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my Lord guides me,
      > I
      > > > > will certainly be among the people who went astray.' When he
      > saw
      > > > the
      > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this is the greatest
      > of
      > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people! I am indeed free
      > > > from
      > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
      > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah who created the
      > > > heavens
      > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate partners with
      > Allah
      > > > > (in worship).
      > > > >
      > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to continuously look
      > at
      > > > the
      > > > > Universe, as this will
      > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His greatness and
      > that
      > > > He
      > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves our worship
      > because
      > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in the Qur'an:
      > > > >
      > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
      > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will answer your
      > prayer."
      > > > >
      > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and his prayers are
      > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually answered his
      > prayers
      > > > but
      > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna,
      > Saint
      > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet Muhammad, are not
      > answered by
      > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently, prayer is an act
      > of
      > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
      > > > >
      > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides Him did not tell
      > > > people
      > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned their people
      > against
      > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches that Prophet Jesus
      > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a human being who was
      > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
      > > > >
      > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a father and he
      > worshipped
      > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of God. He was neither
      > one
      > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians say, nor was a
      > son
      > > > born
      > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
      > > > >
      > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to worship God
      > alone. He
      > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself or his mother.
      > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of God be upon
      > him)
      > > > did
      > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather he worshipped
      > God.
      > > > >
      > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers of Jesus Christ
      > today
      > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is God, and others
      > also
      > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of God.'! God says
      > in
      >
      === message truncated ===


      =====
      ------------------------------------------------------------

      "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at its beauty?; its genius. Billions of people, just living out their lives -- oblivious."

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    • helen steen
      And mine, developed from the ectoderm during an extremely complex process, still as yet not fully understood, during embryological development. Also
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 23, 2004
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        And mine, developed from the ectoderm during an extremely complex process, still as yet not fully understood, during embryological development. Also approximately the same number of years ago as AW's, coincidently.
        My soul, if I have one? Well I have no idea where it might go when I die.
        Helen

        "A. W." <altool4@...> wrote:

        My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51.
        My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and become a ghost and have fun scaring people. Then when
        i get bored i will go to heaven and smoke an ethereal marijuana joint with god.

        --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
        > AW,
        > Tell me, who created your brain?.
        > Where does your soul go when you die?.
        > My best wishes?
        >
        > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A. W." <altool4@y...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
        > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about concepts like
        > creation, supreme being or "reason
        > > for existence" like if you have already find their meaning. I
        > understand you need security and
        > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life, but let me tell
        > you, do not be sattisfied, never
        > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe is all we got.
        > Our concept of the universe
        > > keeps changing throught human evolution and knowledge is relative,
        > you need to understand
        > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and concepts.
        > Hopefully, people will understand
        > > religion and government are just forms of manipulation and control
        > of the human, in his
        > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in society.
        > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW, before is too late!.
        > Kill the god image of all of
        > > this religions and find your way to understand existence and
        > program your reality into your brain.
        > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic society,
        > understand power and control, reality is
        > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of paths you can
        > choose from, thats what makes
        > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make everything eternal, the
        > same way you and your brain can
        > > reach eternity in reality.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
        > > > Helen,
        > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your creator & my
        > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason for our
        > existence,
        > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief stay on the
        > planet
        > > > Earth.
        > > >
        > > > With my best wishes.
        > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
        > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
        > > > > Ok Honey,
        > > > > Why this site?
        > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to Existentialism?
        > > > > I don't get it.
        > > > > Helen
        > > > >
        > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
        > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
        > > > >
        > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message of all the
        > previous
        > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid worshipping anything
        > besides
        > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing, directly or
        > > > indirectly.
        > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is contained in the opening
        > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat Al-Faatihah, verse
        > 4: "You
        > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek help."
        > > > >
        > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
        > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners with Him.
        > > > >
        > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of God be upon
        > him) is
        > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There is no god
        > worthy of
        > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that belief will be
        > granted
        > > > > paradise.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
        > > > >
        > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is the Creator and
        > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great Universe and
        > everything
        > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance, and could not
        > have
        > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is the only Creator
        > can
        > > > be
        > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul of each person.
        > God
        > > > > said in the Qur'an:
        > > > >
        > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
        > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth, and sent down
        > from
        > > > the
        > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for your
        > sustenance. He
        > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the Sea at His
        > command,
        > > > and
        > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He subjected for you the
        > Sun
        > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He subjected for you the
        > Night
        > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him for.
        > > > >
        > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's search for truth
        > as
        > > > an
        > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs will be rightly
        > guided
        > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
        > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
        > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and
        > the
        > > > > earth so that he would have faith with understanding and
        > > > certainty.
        > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he saw a star and
        > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he said: `I don't
        > like
        > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising up, he said:
        > `This is
        > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my Lord guides me,
        > I
        > > > > will certainly be among the people who went astray.' When he
        > saw
        > > > the
        > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this is the greatest
        > of
        > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people! I am indeed free
        > > > from
        > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
        > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah who created the
        > > > heavens
        > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate partners with
        > Allah
        > > > > (in worship).
        > > > >
        > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to continuously look
        > at
        > > > the
        > > > > Universe, as this will
        > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His greatness and
        > that
        > > > He
        > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves our worship
        > because
        > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in the Qur'an:
        > > > >
        > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
        > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will answer your
        > prayer."
        > > > >
        > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and his prayers are
        > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually answered his
        > prayers
        > > > but
        > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna,
        > Saint
        > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet Muhammad, are not
        > answered by
        > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently, prayer is an act
        > of
        > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
        > > > >
        > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides Him did not tell
        > > > people
        > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned their people
        > against
        > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches that Prophet Jesus
        > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a human being who was
        > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
        > > > >
        > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a father and he
        > worshipped
        > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of God. He was neither
        > one
        > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians say, nor was a
        > son
        > > > born
        > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
        > > > >
        > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to worship God
        > alone. He
        > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself or his mother.
        > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of God be upon
        > him)
        > > > did
        > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather he worshipped
        > God.
        > > > >
        > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers of Jesus Christ
        > today
        > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is God, and others
        > also
        > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of God.'! God says
        > in
        >
        === message truncated ===


        =====
        ------------------------------------------------------------

        "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at its beauty?; its genius. Billions of people, just living out their lives -- oblivious."

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      • honeybaby2012
        AW So You do not have the answer for the 1st question. for the 2nd question, you quoted (I will go to heaven) ie you referred to facts coming from
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 25, 2004
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          AW
          So You do not have the answer for the 1st question.
          for the 2nd question, you quoted (I will go to heaven) ie you
          referred to facts coming from scriptures/religion.

          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A. W." <altool4@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51.
          > My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and become a ghost and
          have fun scaring people. Then when
          > i get bored i will go to heaven and smoke an ethereal marijuana
          joint with god.
          >
          > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
          > > AW,
          > > Tell me, who created your brain?.
          > > Where does your soul go when you die?.
          > > My best wishes?
          > >
          > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A. W."
          <altool4@y...>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
          > > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about concepts
          like
          > > creation, supreme being or "reason
          > > > for existence" like if you have already find their meaning. I
          > > understand you need security and
          > > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life, but let me
          tell
          > > you, do not be sattisfied, never
          > > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe is all we
          got.
          > > Our concept of the universe
          > > > keeps changing throught human evolution and knowledge is
          relative,
          > > you need to understand
          > > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and concepts.
          > > Hopefully, people will understand
          > > > religion and government are just forms of manipulation and
          control
          > > of the human, in his
          > > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in society.
          > > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW, before is too
          late!.
          > > Kill the god image of all of
          > > > this religions and find your way to understand existence and
          > > program your reality into your brain.
          > > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic society,
          > > understand power and control, reality is
          > > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of paths you
          can
          > > choose from, thats what makes
          > > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make everything eternal,
          the
          > > same way you and your brain can
          > > > reach eternity in reality.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
          > > > > Helen,
          > > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your creator &
          my
          > > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason for our
          > > existence,
          > > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief stay on the
          > > planet
          > > > > Earth.
          > > > >
          > > > > With my best wishes.
          > > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
          > > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > Ok Honey,
          > > > > > Why this site?
          > > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to Existentialism?
          > > > > > I don't get it.
          > > > > > Helen
          > > > > >
          > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message of all the
          > > previous
          > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid worshipping anything
          > > besides
          > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing, directly or
          > > > > indirectly.
          > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is contained in the
          opening
          > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat Al-Faatihah, verse
          > > 4: "You
          > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek help."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
          > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners with Him.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of God be upon
          > > him) is
          > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There is no god
          > > worthy of
          > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that belief will be
          > > granted
          > > > > > paradise.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is the Creator
          and
          > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great Universe and
          > > everything
          > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance, and could
          not
          > > have
          > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is the only
          Creator
          > > can
          > > > > be
          > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul of each
          person.
          > > God
          > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
          > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth, and sent
          down
          > > from
          > > > > the
          > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for your
          > > sustenance. He
          > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the Sea at His
          > > command,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He subjected for you
          the
          > > Sun
          > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He subjected for you
          the
          > > Night
          > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him for.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's search for
          truth
          > > as
          > > > > an
          > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs will be
          rightly
          > > guided
          > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
          > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
          > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens
          and
          > > the
          > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with understanding and
          > > > > certainty.
          > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he saw a star
          and
          > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he said: `I
          don't
          > > like
          > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising up, he said:
          > > `This is
          > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my Lord guides
          me,
          > > I
          > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went astray.' When
          he
          > > saw
          > > > > the
          > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this is the
          greatest
          > > of
          > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people! I am indeed
          free
          > > > > from
          > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
          > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah who created
          the
          > > > > heavens
          > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate partners
          with
          > > Allah
          > > > > > (in worship).
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to continuously
          look
          > > at
          > > > > the
          > > > > > Universe, as this will
          > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His greatness
          and
          > > that
          > > > > He
          > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves our worship
          > > because
          > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in the Qur'an:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
          > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will answer your
          > > prayer."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and his prayers
          are
          > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually answered his
          > > prayers
          > > > > but
          > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna,
          > > Saint
          > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet Muhammad, are not
          > > answered by
          > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently, prayer is an
          act
          > > of
          > > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides Him did not
          tell
          > > > > people
          > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned their people
          > > against
          > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches that Prophet
          Jesus
          > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a human being who
          was
          > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a father and he
          > > worshipped
          > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of God. He was
          neither
          > > one
          > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians say, nor was
          a
          > > son
          > > > > born
          > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to worship God
          > > alone. He
          > > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself or his
          mother.
          > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of God be upon
          > > him)
          > > > > did
          > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather he
          worshipped
          > > God.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers of Jesus
          Christ
          > > today
          > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is God, and others
          > > also
          > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of God.'! God
          says
          > > in
          > >
          > === message truncated ===
          >
          >
          > =====
          > ------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at its beauty?;
          its genius. Billions of people, just living out their lives --
          oblivious."
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
          > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
        • honeybaby2012
          Helen, Same as AW, you have no clue what I am talking about. May God guide you to the truth. ... process, still as yet not fully understood, during
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 25, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Helen,
            Same as AW, you have no clue what I am talking about.
            May God guide you to the truth.

            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
            <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
            > And mine, developed from the ectoderm during an extremely complex
            process, still as yet not fully understood, during embryological
            development. Also approximately the same number of years ago as
            AW's, coincidently.
            > My soul, if I have one? Well I have no idea where it might go when
            I die.
            > Helen
            >
            > "A. W." <altool4@y...> wrote:
            >
            > My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51.
            > My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and become a ghost and
            have fun scaring people. Then when
            > i get bored i will go to heaven and smoke an ethereal marijuana
            joint with god.
            >
            > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
            > > AW,
            > > Tell me, who created your brain?.
            > > Where does your soul go when you die?.
            > > My best wishes?
            > >
            > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A. W."
            <altool4@y...>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
            > > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about concepts
            like
            > > creation, supreme being or "reason
            > > > for existence" like if you have already find their meaning. I
            > > understand you need security and
            > > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life, but let me
            tell
            > > you, do not be sattisfied, never
            > > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe is all we
            got.
            > > Our concept of the universe
            > > > keeps changing throught human evolution and knowledge is
            relative,
            > > you need to understand
            > > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and concepts.
            > > Hopefully, people will understand
            > > > religion and government are just forms of manipulation and
            control
            > > of the human, in his
            > > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in society.
            > > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW, before is too
            late!.
            > > Kill the god image of all of
            > > > this religions and find your way to understand existence and
            > > program your reality into your brain.
            > > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic society,
            > > understand power and control, reality is
            > > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of paths you
            can
            > > choose from, thats what makes
            > > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make everything eternal,
            the
            > > same way you and your brain can
            > > > reach eternity in reality.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
            > > > > Helen,
            > > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your creator &
            my
            > > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason for our
            > > existence,
            > > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief stay on the
            > > planet
            > > > > Earth.
            > > > >
            > > > > With my best wishes.
            > > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
            > > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > Ok Honey,
            > > > > > Why this site?
            > > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to Existentialism?
            > > > > > I don't get it.
            > > > > > Helen
            > > > > >
            > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message of all the
            > > previous
            > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid worshipping anything
            > > besides
            > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing, directly or
            > > > > indirectly.
            > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is contained in the
            opening
            > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat Al-Faatihah, verse
            > > 4: "You
            > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek help."
            > > > > >
            > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
            > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners with Him.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of God be upon
            > > him) is
            > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There is no god
            > > worthy of
            > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that belief will be
            > > granted
            > > > > > paradise.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is the Creator
            and
            > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great Universe and
            > > everything
            > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance, and could
            not
            > > have
            > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is the only
            Creator
            > > can
            > > > > be
            > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul of each
            person.
            > > God
            > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
            > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth, and sent
            down
            > > from
            > > > > the
            > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for your
            > > sustenance. He
            > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the Sea at His
            > > command,
            > > > > and
            > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He subjected for you
            the
            > > Sun
            > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He subjected for you
            the
            > > Night
            > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him for.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's search for
            truth
            > > as
            > > > > an
            > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs will be
            rightly
            > > guided
            > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
            > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
            > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens
            and
            > > the
            > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with understanding and
            > > > > certainty.
            > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he saw a star
            and
            > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he said: `I
            don't
            > > like
            > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising up, he said:
            > > `This is
            > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my Lord guides
            me,
            > > I
            > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went astray.' When
            he
            > > saw
            > > > > the
            > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this is the
            greatest
            > > of
            > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people! I am indeed
            free
            > > > > from
            > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
            > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah who created
            the
            > > > > heavens
            > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate partners
            with
            > > Allah
            > > > > > (in worship).
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to continuously
            look
            > > at
            > > > > the
            > > > > > Universe, as this will
            > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His greatness
            and
            > > that
            > > > > He
            > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves our worship
            > > because
            > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in the Qur'an:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
            > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will answer your
            > > prayer."
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and his prayers
            are
            > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually answered his
            > > prayers
            > > > > but
            > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna,
            > > Saint
            > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet Muhammad, are not
            > > answered by
            > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently, prayer is an
            act
            > > of
            > > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides Him did not
            tell
            > > > > people
            > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned their people
            > > against
            > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches that Prophet
            Jesus
            > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a human being who
            was
            > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a father and he
            > > worshipped
            > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of God. He was
            neither
            > > one
            > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians say, nor was
            a
            > > son
            > > > > born
            > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to worship God
            > > alone. He
            > > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself or his
            mother.
            > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of God be upon
            > > him)
            > > > > did
            > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather he
            worshipped
            > > God.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers of Jesus
            Christ
            > > today
            > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is God, and others
            > > also
            > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of God.'! God
            says
            > > in
            > >
            > === message truncated ===
            >
            >
            > =====
            > ------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at its beauty?;
            its genius. Billions of people, just living out their lives --
            oblivious."
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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          • helen steen
            Dear Honey, On the contrary, I have lived in a number of countries during my life-time and all of them, as it happens, predominately Christian societies..Thus,
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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              Dear Honey,
              On the contrary, I have lived in a number of countries during my life-time and all of them, as it happens, predominately Christian societies..Thus, I have had been exposed to the Christian faith my whole life and as a small child, in a Christian ( Methodist) school, I'd say pretty much indoctrinated...so I know exactly what you are talking about!
              Helen

              honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
              Helen,
              Same as AW, you have no clue what I am talking about.
              May God guide you to the truth.

              --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
              <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
              > And mine, developed from the ectoderm during an extremely complex
              process, still as yet not fully understood, during embryological
              development. Also approximately the same number of years ago as
              AW's, coincidently.
              > My soul, if I have one? Well I have no idea where it might go when
              I die.
              > Helen
              >
              > "A. W." <altool4@y...> wrote:
              >
              > My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51.
              > My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and become a ghost and
              have fun scaring people. Then when
              > i get bored i will go to heaven and smoke an ethereal marijuana
              joint with god.
              >
              > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
              > > AW,
              > > Tell me, who created your brain?.
              > > Where does your soul go when you die?.
              > > My best wishes?
              > >
              > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A. W."
              <altool4@y...>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
              > > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about concepts
              like
              > > creation, supreme being or "reason
              > > > for existence" like if you have already find their meaning. I
              > > understand you need security and
              > > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life, but let me
              tell
              > > you, do not be sattisfied, never
              > > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe is all we
              got.
              > > Our concept of the universe
              > > > keeps changing throught human evolution and knowledge is
              relative,
              > > you need to understand
              > > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and concepts.
              > > Hopefully, people will understand
              > > > religion and government are just forms of manipulation and
              control
              > > of the human, in his
              > > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in society.
              > > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW, before is too
              late!.
              > > Kill the god image of all of
              > > > this religions and find your way to understand existence and
              > > program your reality into your brain.
              > > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic society,
              > > understand power and control, reality is
              > > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of paths you
              can
              > > choose from, thats what makes
              > > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make everything eternal,
              the
              > > same way you and your brain can
              > > > reach eternity in reality.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
              > > > > Helen,
              > > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your creator &
              my
              > > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason for our
              > > existence,
              > > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief stay on the
              > > planet
              > > > > Earth.
              > > > >
              > > > > With my best wishes.
              > > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen steen
              > > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > Ok Honey,
              > > > > > Why this site?
              > > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to Existentialism?
              > > > > > I don't get it.
              > > > > > Helen
              > > > > >
              > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message of all the
              > > previous
              > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid worshipping anything
              > > besides
              > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing, directly or
              > > > > indirectly.
              > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is contained in the
              opening
              > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat Al-Faatihah, verse
              > > 4: "You
              > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek help."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
              > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners with Him.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of God be upon
              > > him) is
              > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There is no god
              > > worthy of
              > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that belief will be
              > > granted
              > > > > > paradise.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is the Creator
              and
              > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great Universe and
              > > everything
              > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance, and could
              not
              > > have
              > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is the only
              Creator
              > > can
              > > > > be
              > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul of each
              person.
              > > God
              > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
              > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth, and sent
              down
              > > from
              > > > > the
              > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for your
              > > sustenance. He
              > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the Sea at His
              > > command,
              > > > > and
              > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He subjected for you
              the
              > > Sun
              > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He subjected for you
              the
              > > Night
              > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him for.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's search for
              truth
              > > as
              > > > > an
              > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs will be
              rightly
              > > guided
              > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
              > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
              > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens
              and
              > > the
              > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with understanding and
              > > > > certainty.
              > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he saw a star
              and
              > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he said: `I
              don't
              > > like
              > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising up, he said:
              > > `This is
              > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my Lord guides
              me,
              > > I
              > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went astray.' When
              he
              > > saw
              > > > > the
              > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this is the
              greatest
              > > of
              > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people! I am indeed
              free
              > > > > from
              > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
              > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah who created
              the
              > > > > heavens
              > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate partners
              with
              > > Allah
              > > > > > (in worship).
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to continuously
              look
              > > at
              > > > > the
              > > > > > Universe, as this will
              > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His greatness
              and
              > > that
              > > > > He
              > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves our worship
              > > because
              > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in the Qur'an:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
              > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will answer your
              > > prayer."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and his prayers
              are
              > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually answered his
              > > prayers
              > > > > but
              > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna,
              > > Saint
              > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet Muhammad, are not
              > > answered by
              > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently, prayer is an
              act
              > > of
              > > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides Him did not
              tell
              > > > > people
              > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned their people
              > > against
              > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches that Prophet
              Jesus
              > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a human being who
              was
              > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a father and he
              > > worshipped
              > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of God. He was
              neither
              > > one
              > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians say, nor was
              a
              > > son
              > > > > born
              > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to worship God
              > > alone. He
              > > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself or his
              mother.
              > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of God be upon
              > > him)
              > > > > did
              > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather he
              worshipped
              > > God.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers of Jesus
              Christ
              > > today
              > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is God, and others
              > > also
              > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of God.'! God
              says
              > > in
              > >
              > === message truncated ===
              >
              >
              > =====
              > ------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at its beauty?;
              its genius. Billions of people, just living out their lives --
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            • Monte Morris
              Honey, these questions presuppose certain premises. Why do you insist that everyone shares your premises? I don t believe in a soul, and why does my brain have
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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                Honey,
                these questions presuppose certain premises. Why do
                you insist that everyone shares your premises? I don't
                believe in a soul, and why does my brain have to be
                created by someone?

                --Monte
                --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
                > AW,
                > Tell me, who created your brain?.
                > Where does your soul go when you die?.
                > My best wishes?
                >
                > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A.
                > W." <altool4@y...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
                > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about
                > concepts like
                > creation, supreme being or "reason
                > > for existence" like if you have already find their
                > meaning. I
                > understand you need security and
                > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life,
                > but let me tell
                > you, do not be sattisfied, never
                > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe
                > is all we got.
                > Our concept of the universe
                > > keeps changing throught human evolution and
                > knowledge is relative,
                > you need to understand
                > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and
                > concepts.
                > Hopefully, people will understand
                > > religion and government are just forms of
                > manipulation and control
                > of the human, in his
                > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in
                > society.
                > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW,
                > before is too late!.
                > Kill the god image of all of
                > > this religions and find your way to understand
                > existence and
                > program your reality into your brain.
                > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic
                > society,
                > understand power and control, reality is
                > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of
                > paths you can
                > choose from, thats what makes
                > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make
                > everything eternal, the
                > same way you and your brain can
                > > reach eternity in reality.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                > > > Helen,
                > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your
                > creator & my
                > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason
                > for our
                > existence,
                > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief
                > stay on the
                > planet
                > > > Earth.
                > > >
                > > > With my best wishes.
                > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com,
                > helen steen
                > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
                > > > > Ok Honey,
                > > > > Why this site?
                > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to
                > Existentialism?
                > > > > I don't get it.
                > > > > Helen
                > > > >
                > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
                > > > >
                > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message
                > of all the
                > previous
                > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid
                > worshipping anything
                > besides
                > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing,
                > directly or
                > > > indirectly.
                > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is
                > contained in the opening
                > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat
                > Al-Faatihah, verse
                > 4: "You
                > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek
                > help."
                > > > >
                > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
                > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners
                > with Him.
                > > > >
                > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of
                > God be upon
                > him) is
                > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There
                > is no god
                > worthy of
                > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that
                > belief will be
                > granted
                > > > > paradise.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
                > > > >
                > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is
                > the Creator and
                > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great
                > Universe and
                > everything
                > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance,
                > and could not
                > have
                > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is
                > the only Creator
                > can
                > > > be
                > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul
                > of each person.
                > God
                > > > > said in the Qur'an:
                > > > >
                > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
                > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth,
                > and sent down
                > from
                > > > the
                > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for
                > your
                > sustenance. He
                > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the
                > Sea at His
                > command,
                > > > and
                > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He
                > subjected for you the
                > Sun
                > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He
                > subjected for you the
                > Night
                > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him
                > for.
                > > > >
                > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's
                > search for truth
                > as
                > > > an
                > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs
                > will be rightly
                > guided
                > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
                > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
                > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of
                > the heavens and
                > the
                > > > > earth so that he would have faith with
                > understanding and
                > > > certainty.
                > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he
                > saw a star and
                > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he
                > said: `I don't
                > like
                > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising
                > up, he said:
                > `This is
                > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my
                > Lord guides me,
                > I
                > > > > will certainly be among the people who went
                > astray.' When he
                > saw
                > > > the
                > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this
                > is the greatest
                > of
                > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people!
                > I am indeed free
                > > > from
                > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
                > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah
                > who created the
                > > > heavens
                > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate
                > partners with
                > Allah
                > > > > (in worship).
                > > > >
                > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to
                > continuously look
                > at
                > > > the
                > > > > Universe, as this will
                > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His
                > greatness and
                > that
                > > > He
                > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves
                > our worship
                > because
                > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in
                > the Qur'an:
                > > > >
                > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
                > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will
                > answer your
                > prayer."
                > > > >
                > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and
                > his prayers are
                > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually
                > answered his
                > prayers
                > > > but
                > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ,
                > Buddha, Krishna,
                > Saint
                > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet
                > Muhammad, are not
                > answered by
                > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently,
                > prayer is an act
                > of
                > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
                > > > >
                > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides
                > Him did not tell
                > > > people
                > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned
                > their people
                > against
                > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches
                > that Prophet Jesus
                > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a
                > human being who was
                > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
                > > > >
                > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a
                > father and he
                > worshipped
                > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of
                > God. He was neither
                > one
                > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians
                > say, nor was a
                > son
                > > > born
                > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
                > > > >
                > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to
                > worship God
                > alone. He
                > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself
                > or his mother.
                > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of
                > God be upon
                > him)
                > > > did
                > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather
                > he worshipped
                > God.
                > > > >
                > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers
                > of Jesus Christ
                > today
                > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is
                > God, and others
                > also
                > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of
                > God.'! God says
                > in
                > > > the
                > > > > Qur'an that He will ask Prophet Jesus (mercy
                > and peace of God
                > be
                > > > > upon him) on the Day of Judgment:
                > > > >
                > > > > Quarn chp 5: verses 116-117.
                > > > > O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you tell people:
                > Take me and my
                > mother
                > > > as
                > > > > gods besides Allah? Then he will say: Glory to
                > you, I could
                > never
                > > > > say what I had no right to say. If I had said
                > it, You would
                > have
                > > > > known it, You know what is within myself, but
                > I do not know
                > what
                > > > is
                > > > > within Yourself. Verily, You alone are the
                > Knower of the
                > unseen. I
                > > > > did not say to them except what You commanded
                > me; to worship
                > > > Allah,
                > > > > my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness
                > over them as long
                > as I
                > > > > was among them, but when You raised me up, You
                > were the
                > observer
                > > > > over them, and You are the witness over all
                > things.
                > > > >
                > > > > God emphasizes in the Qur'an that Prophet
                > Jesus (mercy and
                > peace
                > > > of
                > > > > God be upon him) was neither killed nor
                > crucified, but God
                > raised
                > > > > him up into the heavens in body and spirit and
                > he will be
                > returned
                > > > > to the earth before the end of the world.
                > Prophet Muhammad
                > (mercy
                > > > > and peace of God be upon him) stated that
                > Prohet Jesus would
                > rule
                > > > > the earth according to the Islamic law, then
                > he will die on
                > earth
                > > > > like other human beings and will be buried and
                > resurrected
                > like
                > > > them
                > > > > on the Day of Judgment. Hence, Prophet Jesus
                > who was given
                > life,
                > > > was
                > > > > born from a woman's womb and circumcised, ate,
                > slept, went to
                > the
                > > > > toilet, grew up, prayed, and will die, should
                > never be taken
                > as
                > > > God
                > > > > as all these characteristics are not the
                > attributes of God,
                > but of
                > > > > His creatures.
                > > > >
                > > > > The New Testament states that Jesus Christ
                > taught his
                > followers to
                > > > > pray to God saying:
                > > > >
                > > > > (Luke 11:2 / Matthew 6:9-10)
                > > > > Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your
                > name, your
                > kingdom
                > > > > come, your will be done on earth as it is in
                > heaven."
                > > > >
                > > > > Also, he taught that only those who submit to
                > God would
                > inherit
                > > > > paradise:
                > > > >
                > > > > (Matthew 7:21)
                > > > > None of those who call me `Lord' will enter
                > the Kingdom of
                > God,
                > > > > except one who does the will of my Father in
                > heaven.
                > > > >
                > > > > Prophet Jesus also pointed out that he himself
                > submitted to
                > the
                > > > will
                > > > > of God:
                > > > >
                > > > > (John 5:23)
                > > > > I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I
                > hear and my
                > judgment
                > > > > is honest because I am not seeking my own will
                > but the will of
                > Him
                > > > > who sent me.
                > > > >
                > > > > In fact, there are many reports in the Gospels
                > that show that
                > > > > Prophet Jesus made it clear to his followers
                > that he was not
                > God.
                > > > > For example, when speaking about the final
                > hour, he said:
                > > > >
                > > > > (Mark 13:32)
                > > > > No one knows about that day or hour, not even
                > the angels in
                > > > heaven,
                > > > > not the son, but only the Father.
                > > > >
                > > > > Buddha, was a reformer who introduced a number
                > of humanistic
                > > > > principles in the Hindu religion practiced in
                > India. He did
                > not
                > > > > claim to be God, nor did he suggest to his
                > followers that he
                > be
                > > > > worshipped. Yet, today most Buddhists have
                > made him their God
                > and
                > > > > they prostrate themselves before idols
                > representing his
                > likeness.
                > > > > In brief, from the perspective of the object
                > worshipped, all
                > > > > religions today [except Islam] invite people
                > to the worship of
                > > > > creation!
                > > > >
                > > > > God's attributes point to the fact that God
                > alone deserves
                > > > worship.
                > > > > He is One, without relatives; He has neither
                > father, son,
                > mother
                > > > nor
                > > > > wife. He is the Eternal Absolute. He neither
                > gives birth, nor
                > is
                > > > He
                > > >
                > > === message truncated ===
                > >
                > >
                > > =====
                > >
                >
                ------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at
                > its beauty?;
                > its genius. Billions of people, just living out
                > their lives --
                > oblivious."
                > >
                > > __________________________________
                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you
                > want.
                > > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
                >
                >


                =====
                --Monte Morris
                Philosopher wannabe
                Japan
                "Needs to find a good quote"


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              • Monte Morris
                Honey, I ve been considering whether or not to dignify this with a reply. It seems to me that I ve already given ample evidence against most of what you claim
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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                  Honey,
                  I've been considering whether or not to dignify this
                  with a reply. It seems to me that I've already given
                  ample evidence against most of what you claim in here.
                  Or, perhaps what you cut and pasted from a website
                  without taking the time to read it. For example, I've
                  already countered that Christians do not worship Mary
                  and Buddhists do not worship a Buddha as a God. Why
                  then, do you repeat them here? To be quite honest, I
                  shouldn't even have to point these things out to you
                  as they are such fundamental points as to be beyond
                  debate. In fact, it would be impossible to find
                  sources to back those claims up because everyone who
                  knows anything about those religions already know
                  those facts. They aren't even things worthy of being
                  debated. Its like debating the color of the sky. Or if
                  there even is a sky. Everyone already knows that it's
                  there.
                  You have also failed to respond to my
                  counter-arguements to your idea that Buddhists statues
                  and the crucifix are graven images. And you have also
                  failed to adequately explain why Islam is not guilty
                  of the same things that you condemn other religions
                  for,albiet ignorantly, I might add.
                  Tell me why this deserves to be continued.
                  --Monte




                  > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same
                  > message of all the
                  > > previous
                  > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid
                  > worshipping anything
                  > > besides
                  > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing,
                  > directly or
                  > > > > indirectly.
                  > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is
                  > contained in the opening
                  > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat
                  > Al-Faatihah, verse
                  > > 4: "You
                  > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do
                  > seek help."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
                  > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners
                  > with Him.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace
                  > of God be upon
                  > > him) is
                  > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says:
                  > There is no god
                  > > worthy of
                  > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that
                  > belief will be
                  > > granted
                  > > > > > paradise.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is
                  > the Creator and
                  > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great
                  > Universe and
                  > > everything
                  > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of
                  > chance, and could not
                  > > have
                  > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is
                  > the only Creator
                  > > can
                  > > > > be
                  > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very
                  > soul of each person.
                  > > God
                  > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
                  > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the
                  > Earth, and sent down
                  > > from
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits
                  > for your
                  > > sustenance. He
                  > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the
                  > Sea at His
                  > > command,
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He
                  > subjected for you the
                  > > Sun
                  > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He
                  > subjected for you the
                  > > Night
                  > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him
                  > for.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet
                  > Abraham's search for truth
                  > > as
                  > > > > an
                  > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs
                  > will be rightly
                  > > guided
                  > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
                  > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
                  > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of
                  > the heavens and
                  > > the
                  > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with
                  > understanding and
                  > > > > certainty.
                  > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he
                  > saw a star and
                  > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he
                  > said: `I don't
                  > > like
                  > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising
                  > up, he said:
                  > > `This is
                  > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless
                  > my Lord guides me,
                  > > I
                  > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went
                  > astray.' When he
                  > > saw
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord,
                  > this is the greatest
                  > > of
                  > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my
                  > people! I am indeed free
                  > > > > from
                  > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
                  > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah
                  > who created the
                  > > > > heavens
                  > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who
                  > associate partners with
                  > > Allah
                  > > > > > (in worship).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to
                  > continuously look
                  > > at
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > Universe, as this will
                  > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence,
                  > His greatness and
                  > > that
                  > > > > He
                  > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone
                  > deserves our worship
                  > > because
                  > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in
                  > the Qur'an:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
                  > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will
                  > answer your
                  > > prayer."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and
                  > his prayers are
                  > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually
                  > answered his
                  > > prayers
                  > > > > but
                  > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ,
                  > Buddha, Krishna,
                  > > Saint
                  > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet
                  > Muhammad, are not
                  > > answered by
                  > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently,
                  > prayer is an act
                  > > of
                  > > > > > worship which should be directed to God
                  > alone.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides
                  > Him did not tell
                  > > > > people
                  > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets
                  > warned their people
                  > > against
                  > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches
                  > that Prophet Jesus
                  > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a
                  > human being who was
                  > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a
                  > father and he
                  > > worshipped
                  > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of
                  > God. He was neither
                  > > one
                  > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians
                  > say, nor was a
                  > > son
                  > > > > born
                  > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to
                  > worship God
                  > > alone. He
                  > > > > > did not tell people to worship either
                  > himself or his mother.
                  > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace
                  > of God be upon
                  > > him)
                  > > > > did
                  > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped,
                  > rather he worshipped
                  > > God.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers
                  > of Jesus Christ
                  > > today
                  > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is
                  > God, and others
                  > > also
                  > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother
                  > of God.'! God says
                  > > in
                  > >
                  > === message truncated ===
                  >
                  >
                  > =====
                  >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at
                  > its beauty?; its genius. Billions of people, just
                  > living out their lives -- oblivious."
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
                  > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                • Shayne Seymour
                  My primary reason for joining this group is to read other views on, and learn more about existentialism. I had no intentions of being able to contribute
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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                    My primary reason for joining this group is to read
                    other views on, and learn more about existentialism.
                    I had no intentions of being able to contribute
                    anything profound any time soon, and I don't assume
                    that I am now.

                    I understand the religious aspects of existentialism.

                    I don't understand is how this sort of theological
                    discussion relates. As an Individual (with a capital
                    I), I believe what I believe and worship how I
                    worship. I believe in every Individual's right and
                    ability (maybe) to do the same. I don't feel the
                    slightest urge to convince anyone else that my way of
                    worshiping (or lack thereof) or thinking (or lack
                    thereof) is any better or more correct than anyone
                    else's. In my small mind, that concept of self
                    without regard for how anyone else conducts his or her
                    business is one of the fundamental elements of
                    existentialism.

                    Am I wrong about that?

                    It is in no way my place to judge the discussions on
                    this or any other list. Help me out here. Please
                    explain to me how this attempt to qualify the
                    credibility of any set of beliefs or worship practices
                    relates to existentialism.

                    Isn't a more existential question something along the
                    lines of..... Don't we have Free Will, whether by
                    divine influence or whatever means, to decide if and
                    how to seek our own truths?

                    Shayne

                    --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
                    > Helen,
                    > Same as AW, you have no clue what I am talking
                    > about.
                    > May God guide you to the truth.
                    >
                    > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, helen
                    > steen
                    > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
                    > > And mine, developed from the ectoderm during an
                    > extremely complex
                    > process, still as yet not fully understood, during
                    > embryological
                    > development. Also approximately the same number of
                    > years ago as
                    > AW's, coincidently.
                    > > My soul, if I have one? Well I have no idea where
                    > it might go when
                    > I die.
                    > > Helen
                    > >
                    > > "A. W." <altool4@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My brain, an extraterrestrial being in area 51.
                    > > My soul, being ethereal, i stay in earth and
                    > become a ghost and
                    > have fun scaring people. Then when
                    > > i get bored i will go to heaven and smoke an
                    > ethereal marijuana
                    > joint with god.
                    > >
                    > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                    > > > AW,
                    > > > Tell me, who created your brain?.
                    > > > Where does your soul go when you die?.
                    > > > My best wishes?
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "A. W."
                    > <altool4@y...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
                    > > > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk
                    > about concepts
                    > like
                    > > > creation, supreme being or "reason
                    > > > > for existence" like if you have already find
                    > their meaning. I
                    > > > understand you need security and
                    > > > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto
                    > life, but let me
                    > tell
                    > > > you, do not be sattisfied, never
                    > > > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of,
                    > maybe is all we
                    > got.
                    > > > Our concept of the universe
                    > > > > keeps changing throught human evolution and
                    > knowledge is
                    > relative,
                    > > > you need to understand
                    > > > > everything changes, and that includes meaning
                    > and concepts.
                    > > > Hopefully, people will understand
                    > > > > religion and government are just forms of
                    > manipulation and
                    > control
                    > > > of the human, in his
                    > > > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in
                    > society.
                    > > > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW,
                    > before is too
                    > late!.
                    > > > Kill the god image of all of
                    > > > > this religions and find your way to understand
                    > existence and
                    > > > program your reality into your brain.
                    > > > > Understand your brain, understand the
                    > sistematic society,
                    > > > understand power and control, reality is
                    > > > > flexible into eternity and there is an
                    > infinite of paths you
                    > can
                    > > > choose from, thats what makes
                    > > > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make
                    > everything eternal,
                    > the
                    > > > same way you and your brain can
                    > > > > reach eternity in reality.
                    > > > >

                    =====
                    Shayne
                    ouray21@...
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "I drink now and then at parties to avoid being caught sober."
                    -Groucho Marx
                    http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/5280/blew.mp3

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                  • honeybaby2012
                    Monte, If you do not call the soul that leaves the body when it dies soul , what do you call it then?. How does life is separated from the body, when it
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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                      Monte,
                      If you do not call the soul that leaves the body when it dies "soul",
                      what do you call it then?. How does life is separated from the body,
                      when it becomes lifeless?

                      You will find a lot of v. interesting things about the soul here:
                      www.barnabas.net

                      If no one created your brain, how did it come about?, every machine
                      or equipment has operating manual, the operating manual for human
                      beings is the quran.
                      With my best wishes.

                      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                      <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                      > Honey,
                      > these questions presuppose certain premises. Why do
                      > you insist that everyone shares your premises? I don't
                      > believe in a soul, and why does my brain have to be
                      > created by someone?
                      >
                      > --Monte
                      > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                      > > AW,
                      > > Tell me, who created your brain?.
                      > > Where does your soul go when you die?.
                      > > My best wishes?
                      > >
                      > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "A.
                      > > W." <altool4@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
                      > > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk about
                      > > concepts like
                      > > creation, supreme being or "reason
                      > > > for existence" like if you have already find their
                      > > meaning. I
                      > > understand you need security and
                      > > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto life,
                      > > but let me tell
                      > > you, do not be sattisfied, never
                      > > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of, maybe
                      > > is all we got.
                      > > Our concept of the universe
                      > > > keeps changing throught human evolution and
                      > > knowledge is relative,
                      > > you need to understand
                      > > > everything changes, and that includes meaning and
                      > > concepts.
                      > > Hopefully, people will understand
                      > > > religion and government are just forms of
                      > > manipulation and control
                      > > of the human, in his
                      > > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in
                      > > society.
                      > > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW,
                      > > before is too late!.
                      > > Kill the god image of all of
                      > > > this religions and find your way to understand
                      > > existence and
                      > > program your reality into your brain.
                      > > > Understand your brain, understand the sistematic
                      > > society,
                      > > understand power and control, reality is
                      > > > flexible into eternity and there is an infinite of
                      > > paths you can
                      > > choose from, thats what makes
                      > > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make
                      > > everything eternal, the
                      > > same way you and your brain can
                      > > > reach eternity in reality.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > Helen,
                      > > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from your
                      > > creator & my
                      > > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the reason
                      > > for our
                      > > existence,
                      > > > > and what we are supposed to do during our brief
                      > > stay on the
                      > > planet
                      > > > > Earth.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > With my best wishes.
                      > > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com,
                      > > helen steen
                      > > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > > Ok Honey,
                      > > > > > Why this site?
                      > > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to
                      > > Existentialism?
                      > > > > > I don't get it.
                      > > > > > Helen
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same message
                      > > of all the
                      > > previous
                      > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid
                      > > worshipping anything
                      > > besides
                      > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing,
                      > > directly or
                      > > > > indirectly.
                      > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is
                      > > contained in the opening
                      > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat
                      > > Al-Faatihah, verse
                      > > 4: "You
                      > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do seek
                      > > help."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
                      > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners
                      > > with Him.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace of
                      > > God be upon
                      > > him) is
                      > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says: There
                      > > is no god
                      > > worthy of
                      > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that
                      > > belief will be
                      > > granted
                      > > > > > paradise.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is
                      > > the Creator and
                      > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great
                      > > Universe and
                      > > everything
                      > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of chance,
                      > > and could not
                      > > have
                      > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is
                      > > the only Creator
                      > > can
                      > > > > be
                      > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very soul
                      > > of each person.
                      > > God
                      > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
                      > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the Earth,
                      > > and sent down
                      > > from
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits for
                      > > your
                      > > sustenance. He
                      > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the
                      > > Sea at His
                      > > command,
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He
                      > > subjected for you the
                      > > Sun
                      > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He
                      > > subjected for you the
                      > > Night
                      > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him
                      > > for.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet Abraham's
                      > > search for truth
                      > > as
                      > > > > an
                      > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs
                      > > will be rightly
                      > > guided
                      > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
                      > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
                      > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of
                      > > the heavens and
                      > > the
                      > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with
                      > > understanding and
                      > > > > certainty.
                      > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he
                      > > saw a star and
                      > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he
                      > > said: `I don't
                      > > like
                      > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising
                      > > up, he said:
                      > > `This is
                      > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless my
                      > > Lord guides me,
                      > > I
                      > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went
                      > > astray.' When he
                      > > saw
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord, this
                      > > is the greatest
                      > > of
                      > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my people!
                      > > I am indeed free
                      > > > > from
                      > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
                      > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah
                      > > who created the
                      > > > > heavens
                      > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who associate
                      > > partners with
                      > > Allah
                      > > > > > (in worship).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to
                      > > continuously look
                      > > at
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > Universe, as this will
                      > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence, His
                      > > greatness and
                      > > that
                      > > > > He
                      > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone deserves
                      > > our worship
                      > > because
                      > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in
                      > > the Qur'an:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
                      > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will
                      > > answer your
                      > > prayer."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and
                      > > his prayers are
                      > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually
                      > > answered his
                      > > prayers
                      > > > > but
                      > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ,
                      > > Buddha, Krishna,
                      > > Saint
                      > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet
                      > > Muhammad, are not
                      > > answered by
                      > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently,
                      > > prayer is an act
                      > > of
                      > > > > > worship which should be directed to God alone.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides
                      > > Him did not tell
                      > > > > people
                      > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets warned
                      > > their people
                      > > against
                      > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches
                      > > that Prophet Jesus
                      > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a
                      > > human being who was
                      > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a
                      > > father and he
                      > > worshipped
                      > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of
                      > > God. He was neither
                      > > one
                      > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians
                      > > say, nor was a
                      > > son
                      > > > > born
                      > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to
                      > > worship God
                      > > alone. He
                      > > > > > did not tell people to worship either himself
                      > > or his mother.
                      > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of
                      > > God be upon
                      > > him)
                      > > > > did
                      > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped, rather
                      > > he worshipped
                      > > God.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers
                      > > of Jesus Christ
                      > > today
                      > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is
                      > > God, and others
                      > > also
                      > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother of
                      > > God.'! God says
                      > > in
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > Qur'an that He will ask Prophet Jesus (mercy
                      > > and peace of God
                      > > be
                      > > > > > upon him) on the Day of Judgment:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Quarn chp 5: verses 116-117.
                      > > > > > O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you tell people:
                      > > Take me and my
                      > > mother
                      > > > > as
                      > > > > > gods besides Allah? Then he will say: Glory to
                      > > you, I could
                      > > never
                      > > > > > say what I had no right to say. If I had said
                      > > it, You would
                      > > have
                      > > > > > known it, You know what is within myself, but
                      > > I do not know
                      > > what
                      > > > > is
                      > > > > > within Yourself. Verily, You alone are the
                      > > Knower of the
                      > > unseen. I
                      > > > > > did not say to them except what You commanded
                      > > me; to worship
                      > > > > Allah,
                      > > > > > my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness
                      > > over them as long
                      > > as I
                      > > > > > was among them, but when You raised me up, You
                      > > were the
                      > > observer
                      > > > > > over them, and You are the witness over all
                      > > things.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > God emphasizes in the Qur'an that Prophet
                      > > Jesus (mercy and
                      > > peace
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > God be upon him) was neither killed nor
                      > > crucified, but God
                      > > raised
                      > > > > > him up into the heavens in body and spirit and
                      > > he will be
                      > > returned
                      > > > > > to the earth before the end of the world.
                      > > Prophet Muhammad
                      > > (mercy
                      > > > > > and peace of God be upon him) stated that
                      > > Prohet Jesus would
                      > > rule
                      > > > > > the earth according to the Islamic law, then
                      > > he will die on
                      > > earth
                      > > > > > like other human beings and will be buried and
                      > > resurrected
                      > > like
                      > > > > them
                      > > > > > on the Day of Judgment. Hence, Prophet Jesus
                      > > who was given
                      > > life,
                      > > > > was
                      > > > > > born from a woman's womb and circumcised, ate,
                      > > slept, went to
                      > > the
                      > > > > > toilet, grew up, prayed, and will die, should
                      > > never be taken
                      > > as
                      > > > > God
                      > > > > > as all these characteristics are not the
                      > > attributes of God,
                      > > but of
                      > > > > > His creatures.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The New Testament states that Jesus Christ
                      > > taught his
                      > > followers to
                      > > > > > pray to God saying:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > (Luke 11:2 / Matthew 6:9-10)
                      > > > > > Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your
                      > > name, your
                      > > kingdom
                      > > > > > come, your will be done on earth as it is in
                      > > heaven."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Also, he taught that only those who submit to
                      > > God would
                      > > inherit
                      > > > > > paradise:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > (Matthew 7:21)
                      > > > > > None of those who call me `Lord' will enter
                      > > the Kingdom of
                      > > God,
                      > > > > > except one who does the will of my Father in
                      > > heaven.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Prophet Jesus also pointed out that he himself
                      > > submitted to
                      > > the
                      > > > > will
                      > > > > > of God:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > (John 5:23)
                      > > > > > I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I
                      > > hear and my
                      > > judgment
                      > > > > > is honest because I am not seeking my own will
                      > > but the will of
                      > > Him
                      > > > > > who sent me.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In fact, there are many reports in the Gospels
                      > > that show that
                      > > > > > Prophet Jesus made it clear to his followers
                      > > that he was not
                      > > God.
                      > > > > > For example, when speaking about the final
                      > > hour, he said:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > (Mark 13:32)
                      > > > > > No one knows about that day or hour, not even
                      > > the angels in
                      > > > > heaven,
                      > > > > > not the son, but only the Father.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Buddha, was a reformer who introduced a number
                      > > of humanistic
                      > > > > > principles in the Hindu religion practiced in
                      > > India. He did
                      > > not
                      > > > > > claim to be God, nor did he suggest to his
                      > > followers that he
                      > > be
                      > > > > > worshipped. Yet, today most Buddhists have
                      > > made him their God
                      > > and
                      > > > > > they prostrate themselves before idols
                      > > representing his
                      > > likeness.
                      > > > > > In brief, from the perspective of the object
                      > > worshipped, all
                      > > > > > religions today [except Islam] invite people
                      > > to the worship of
                      > > > > > creation!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > God's attributes point to the fact that God
                      > > alone deserves
                      > > > > worship.
                      > > > > > He is One, without relatives; He has neither
                      > > father, son,
                      > > mother
                      > > > > nor
                      > > > > > wife. He is the Eternal Absolute. He neither
                      > > gives birth, nor
                      > > is
                      > > > > He
                      > > > >
                      > > > === message truncated ===
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > =====
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at
                      > > its beauty?;
                      > > its genius. Billions of people, just living out
                      > > their lives --
                      > > oblivious."
                      > > >
                      > > > __________________________________
                      > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you
                      > > want.
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                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > =====
                      > --Monte Morris
                      > Philosopher wannabe
                      > Japan
                      > "Needs to find a good quote"
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________
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                    • honeybaby2012
                      Monte, The message of the quran is to everyone, the quran addresses all peoples as follows : o Man, o People, o believers, and never say o Christians or o
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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                        Monte,
                        The message of the quran is to everyone, the quran addresses all
                        peoples as follows : o Man, o People, o believers, and never say o
                        Christians or o muslims… so the message of the quran is for all
                        humans and Jins.

                        When I criticized Christianity for instance I always quoted from the
                        bible, I have already researched into Christianity, Judaism and
                        paganism.

                        And I do not understand why you are always angry.

                        how do you explain the following contradictions in the bible:

                        The father is GOD, the son is GOD the Holy spirit is GOD.

                        With "Thou shall not take any other God before me.


                        Quote from monte:
                        My suggestion: Take some time out, research other
                        religions on their own terms rather than through a
                        lens to criticize them with, and grow up.

                        Answer from Honey,
                        I have done deep research in the religions of Christianity, Judaism,
                        and Paganism, I read a lot about religious leaders who abandoned the
                        above ways of life and embraced Islam.

                        So I would say I have quite enough knowledge to discuss / debate with
                        you.

                        With my best wishes,


                        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                        <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                        > Honey,
                        > I've been considering whether or not to dignify this
                        > with a reply. It seems to me that I've already given
                        > ample evidence against most of what you claim in here.
                        > Or, perhaps what you cut and pasted from a website
                        > without taking the time to read it. For example, I've
                        > already countered that Christians do not worship Mary
                        > and Buddhists do not worship a Buddha as a God. Why
                        > then, do you repeat them here? To be quite honest, I
                        > shouldn't even have to point these things out to you
                        > as they are such fundamental points as to be beyond
                        > debate. In fact, it would be impossible to find
                        > sources to back those claims up because everyone who
                        > knows anything about those religions already know
                        > those facts. They aren't even things worthy of being
                        > debated. Its like debating the color of the sky. Or if
                        > there even is a sky. Everyone already knows that it's
                        > there.
                        > You have also failed to respond to my
                        > counter-arguements to your idea that Buddhists statues
                        > and the crucifix are graven images. And you have also
                        > failed to adequately explain why Islam is not guilty
                        > of the same things that you condemn other religions
                        > for,albiet ignorantly, I might add.
                        > Tell me why this deserves to be continued.
                        > --Monte
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same
                        > > message of all the
                        > > > previous
                        > > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid
                        > > worshipping anything
                        > > > besides
                        > > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing,
                        > > directly or
                        > > > > > indirectly.
                        > > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is
                        > > contained in the opening
                        > > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat
                        > > Al-Faatihah, verse
                        > > > 4: "You
                        > > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do
                        > > seek help."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
                        > > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners
                        > > with Him.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace
                        > > of God be upon
                        > > > him) is
                        > > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says:
                        > > There is no god
                        > > > worthy of
                        > > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that
                        > > belief will be
                        > > > granted
                        > > > > > > paradise.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is
                        > > the Creator and
                        > > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great
                        > > Universe and
                        > > > everything
                        > > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of
                        > > chance, and could not
                        > > > have
                        > > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is
                        > > the only Creator
                        > > > can
                        > > > > > be
                        > > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very
                        > > soul of each person.
                        > > > God
                        > > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
                        > > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the
                        > > Earth, and sent down
                        > > > from
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits
                        > > for your
                        > > > sustenance. He
                        > > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the
                        > > Sea at His
                        > > > command,
                        > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He
                        > > subjected for you the
                        > > > Sun
                        > > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He
                        > > subjected for you the
                        > > > Night
                        > > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him
                        > > for.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet
                        > > Abraham's search for truth
                        > > > as
                        > > > > > an
                        > > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs
                        > > will be rightly
                        > > > guided
                        > > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
                        > > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
                        > > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of
                        > > the heavens and
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with
                        > > understanding and
                        > > > > > certainty.
                        > > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he
                        > > saw a star and
                        > > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he
                        > > said: `I don't
                        > > > like
                        > > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising
                        > > up, he said:
                        > > > `This is
                        > > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless
                        > > my Lord guides me,
                        > > > I
                        > > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went
                        > > astray.' When he
                        > > > saw
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord,
                        > > this is the greatest
                        > > > of
                        > > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my
                        > > people! I am indeed free
                        > > > > > from
                        > > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
                        > > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah
                        > > who created the
                        > > > > > heavens
                        > > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who
                        > > associate partners with
                        > > > Allah
                        > > > > > > (in worship).
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to
                        > > continuously look
                        > > > at
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > Universe, as this will
                        > > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence,
                        > > His greatness and
                        > > > that
                        > > > > > He
                        > > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone
                        > > deserves our worship
                        > > > because
                        > > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in
                        > > the Qur'an:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
                        > > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will
                        > > answer your
                        > > > prayer."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and
                        > > his prayers are
                        > > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually
                        > > answered his
                        > > > prayers
                        > > > > > but
                        > > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ,
                        > > Buddha, Krishna,
                        > > > Saint
                        > > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet
                        > > Muhammad, are not
                        > > > answered by
                        > > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently,
                        > > prayer is an act
                        > > > of
                        > > > > > > worship which should be directed to God
                        > > alone.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides
                        > > Him did not tell
                        > > > > > people
                        > > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets
                        > > warned their people
                        > > > against
                        > > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches
                        > > that Prophet Jesus
                        > > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a
                        > > human being who was
                        > > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a
                        > > father and he
                        > > > worshipped
                        > > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of
                        > > God. He was neither
                        > > > one
                        > > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians
                        > > say, nor was a
                        > > > son
                        > > > > > born
                        > > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to
                        > > worship God
                        > > > alone. He
                        > > > > > > did not tell people to worship either
                        > > himself or his mother.
                        > > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace
                        > > of God be upon
                        > > > him)
                        > > > > > did
                        > > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped,
                        > > rather he worshipped
                        > > > God.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers
                        > > of Jesus Christ
                        > > > today
                        > > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is
                        > > God, and others
                        > > > also
                        > > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother
                        > > of God.'! God says
                        > > > in
                        > > >
                        > > === message truncated ===
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > =====
                        > >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at
                        > > its beauty?; its genius. Billions of people, just
                        > > living out their lives -- oblivious."
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________
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                        > --Monte Morris
                        > Philosopher wannabe
                        > Japan
                        > "Needs to find a good quote"
                        >
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                      • Shayne Seymour
                        Might I politely suggest that you work on your delivery and tone. Quite frankly, you re coming across as a close-minded, arrogant ass. With my best wishes,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 26, 2004
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                          Might I politely suggest that you work on your
                          delivery and tone. Quite frankly, you're coming
                          across as a close-minded, arrogant ass.

                          With my best wishes,
                          shayne

                          --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
                          > Quote from monte:
                          > My suggestion: Take some time out, research other
                          > religions on their own terms rather than through a
                          > lens to criticize them with, and grow up.
                          >
                          > Answer from Honey,
                          > I have done deep research in the religions of
                          > Christianity, Judaism,
                          > and Paganism, I read a lot about religious leaders
                          > who abandoned the
                          > above ways of life and embraced Islam.
                          >
                          > So I would say I have quite enough knowledge to
                          > discuss / debate with
                          > you.
                          >
                          > With my best wishes,
                          >
                          >

                          =====
                          Shayne
                          ouray21@...
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "I drink now and then at parties to avoid being caught sober."
                          -Groucho Marx
                          http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/5280/blew.mp3

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                        • Will Quinn
                          Right on Shayne! Somebody had to say it sometime. Honey, your ignorance offends me, as you don t know anything about Christianity, Budhism, or probably any
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 27, 2004
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                            Right on Shayne! Somebody had to say it sometime.
                            Honey, your ignorance offends me, as you don't know anything about Christianity, Budhism, or probably any other religion than your own. We have all tried to correct you, but you refuse to listen to reason or to respond to any evidence against your ideas. As a Christian and as a fairly well-read person, I know that things you have said are false. I have already tried to explain these points to you, but you have refused to listen. Don't tell me or anyone else that our religion (or lack thereof) is false or untrue without evidence. Your evidence is not from an external source (as Monte Morris was saying), so why should we believe your Quran? Your "deep research" is only propoganda, filled with lies.
                            I know I sound a little angry, but I'm growing tired of this. Honey, if you can't argue properly, then don't waste our disk space.

                            Cordially,
                            Will

                            Shayne Seymour <ouray21@...> wrote:
                            Might I politely suggest that you work on your
                            delivery and tone. Quite frankly, you're coming
                            across as a close-minded, arrogant ass.

                            With my best wishes,
                            shayne

                            --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
                            > Quote from monte:
                            > My suggestion: Take some time out, research other
                            > religions on their own terms rather than through a
                            > lens to criticize them with, and grow up.
                            >
                            > Answer from Honey,
                            > I have done deep research in the religions of
                            > Christianity, Judaism,
                            > and Paganism, I read a lot about religious leaders
                            > who abandoned the
                            > above ways of life and embraced Islam.
                            >
                            > So I would say I have quite enough knowledge to
                            > discuss / debate with
                            > you.
                            >
                            > With my best wishes,
                            >
                            >

                            =====
                            Shayne
                            ouray21@...
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            "I drink now and then at parties to avoid being caught sober."
                            -Groucho Marx
                            http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/5280/blew.mp3

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                          • Monte Morris
                            ... Goodness, now here s a difficult question! If I don t believe in the soul, then why would I believe that there is some other substance that leaves my body
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 3 6:17 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > If you do not call the soul that leaves the body
                              > when it dies "soul",
                              > what do you call it then?. How does life is
                              > separated from the body,
                              > when it becomes lifeless?

                              Goodness, now here's a difficult question! If I don't believe in the soul, then why would I believe that there is some other substance that leaves my body when I die? It really does seem that you don't listen to anything that I say. How does life seperate from the body when it becomes lifeless? Well, since I reject the assumption that this question rests on, that there is a dualistic existence consisting of body and soul, I can safely ignore this question. However, to answer it, I would say that I live, so therefore I die. One cannot die until one is born. It is part of existence; we are each going to die someday. There is a 100% correlation between living and dying, as well as a 100% correlation between dying and not coming back to life (at least in empirically observable forms.)
                              What is lost when I die? My consciousness. What is it? My life functions, my life processes. Does Islam believe that animals and plants have souls the seperate from thier bodies when they die? They are also conscious of thier existence and struggle to stay alive. If Islam does not grant these forms of life souls, then why should humans alone have them? And to clinch the arguement, we die the same way they do. All as one, in the same chain of ecological harmony. Awwww, how sweet.

                              "Life is my existence; when I am alive, I exist. Death is my non-existence; when I die, I cease to exist. Therefore, death is my annihilation. Where there is my death, I am not. Where I am, my death is not. Why then should I fear death?"


                              >
                              > You will find a lot of v. interesting things about
                              > the soul here:
                              > www.barnabas.net
                              >
                              OK. Thanks.


                              > If no one created your brain, how did it come
                              > about?, every machine
                              > or equipment has operating manual, the operating
                              > manual for human
                              > beings is the quran.
                              > With my best wishes.
                              >
                              ---Do you study biology? How about evolution? There are other, much more plausable arguements for the creation of the human brain. They can be tested and authorized.

                              --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
                              > Morris
                              > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                              > > Honey,
                              > > these questions presuppose certain premises. Why
                              > do
                              > > you insist that everyone shares your premises? I
                              > don't
                              > > believe in a soul, and why does my brain have to
                              > be
                              > > created by someone?
                              > >
                              > > --Monte
                              > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                              > > > AW,
                              > > > Tell me, who created your brain?.
                              > > > Where does your soul go when you die?.
                              > > > My best wishes?
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com,
                              > "A.
                              > > > W." <altool4@y...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Oh no, we have a 1 tune trompet player.
                              > > > > Please do not be closed minded. Do not talk
                              > about
                              > > > concepts like
                              > > > creation, supreme being or "reason
                              > > > > for existence" like if you have already find
                              > their
                              > > > meaning. I
                              > > > understand you need security and
                              > > > > some kind of backup for you to hold on unto
                              > life,
                              > > > but let me tell
                              > > > you, do not be sattisfied, never
                              > > > > be sure, because for what i am conscious of,
                              > maybe
                              > > > is all we got.
                              > > > Our concept of the universe
                              > > > > keeps changing throught human evolution and
                              > > > knowledge is relative,
                              > > > you need to understand
                              > > > > everything changes, and that includes meaning
                              > and
                              > > > concepts.
                              > > > Hopefully, people will understand
                              > > > > religion and government are just forms of
                              > > > manipulation and control
                              > > > of the human, in his
                              > > > > metaphisycal mind and in the way he exists in
                              > > > society.
                              > > > > For you to evolve, you need to kill god NOW,
                              > > > before is too late!.
                              > > > Kill the god image of all of
                              > > > > this religions and find your way to understand
                              > > > existence and
                              > > > program your reality into your brain.
                              > > > > Understand your brain, understand the
                              > sistematic
                              > > > society,
                              > > > understand power and control, reality is
                              > > > > flexible into eternity and there is an
                              > infinite of
                              > > > paths you can
                              > > > choose from, thats what makes
                              > > > > this moment eternal, and thats whats make
                              > > > everything eternal, the
                              > > > same way you and your brain can
                              > > > > reach eternity in reality.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                              > > > > > Helen,
                              > > > > > This is not dogma, but a clear message from
                              > your
                              > > > creator & my
                              > > > > > creator, the Supreme Being telling us the
                              > reason
                              > > > for our
                              > > > existence,
                              > > > > > and what we are supposed to do during our
                              > brief
                              > > > stay on the
                              > > > planet
                              > > > > > Earth.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > With my best wishes.
                              > > > > > --- In
                              > theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com,
                              > > > helen steen
                              > > > > > <hjsgermany2000@y...> wrote:
                              > > > > > > Ok Honey,
                              > > > > > > Why this site?
                              > > > > > > What relevance has all this dogma got to
                              > > > Existentialism?
                              > > > > > > I don't get it.
                              > > > > > > Helen
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                              > > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same
                              > message
                              > > > of all the
                              > > > previous
                              > > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid
                              > > > worshipping anything
                              > > > besides
                              > > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or
                              > thing,
                              > > > directly or
                              > > > > > indirectly.
                              > > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is
                              > > > contained in the opening
                              > > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat
                              > > > Al-Faatihah, verse
                              > > > 4: "You
                              > > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do
                              > seek
                              > > > help."
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
                              > > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate
                              > partners
                              > > > with Him.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and
                              > peace of
                              > > > God be upon
                              > > > him) is
                              > > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says:
                              > There
                              > > > is no god
                              > > > worthy of
                              > > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that
                              > > > belief will be
                              > > > granted
                              > > > > > > paradise.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He
                              > is
                              > > > the Creator and
                              > > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great
                              > > > Universe and
                              > > > everything
                              > > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of
                              > chance,
                              > > > and could not
                              > > > have
                              > > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God
                              > is
                              > > > the only Creator
                              > > > can
                              > > > > > be
                              > > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very
                              > soul
                              > > > of each person.
                              > > > God
                              > > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
                              > > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the
                              > Earth,
                              > > > and sent down
                              > > > from
                              > > > > > the
                              > > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits
                              > for
                              > > > your
                              > > > sustenance. He
                              > > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon
                              > the
                              > > > Sea at His
                              > > > command,
                              > > > > > and
                              > > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He
                              > > > subjected for you the
                              > > > Sun
                              > > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He
                              > > > subjected for you the
                              > > > Night
                              > > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him
                              > > > for.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet
                              > Abraham's
                              > > > search for truth
                              > > > as
                              > > > > > an
                              > > > > > > example of how those who follow God's
                              > signs
                              > > > will be rightly
                              > > > guided
                              > > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
                              > > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
                              > > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom
                              > of
                              > > > the heavens and
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with
                              > > > understanding and
                              > > > > > certainty.
                              > > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness,
                              > he
                              > > > saw a star and
                              > > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set,
                              > he
                              > > > said: `I don't
                              > > > like
                              > > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon
                              > rising
                              > > > up, he said:
                              > > > `This is
                              > > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said:
                              > `Unless my
                              > > > Lord guides me,
                              > > > I
                              > > > > > > will certainly be among the people who
                              > went
                              > > > astray.' When he
                              > > > saw
                              > > > > > the
                              > > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord,
                              > this
                              > > > is the greatest
                              > > > of
                              > > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my
                              > people!
                              > > > I am indeed free
                              > > > > > from
                              > > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
                              > > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards
                              > Allah
                              > > > who created the
                              > > > > > heavens
                              > > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who
                              > associate
                              > > > partners with
                              > > > Allah
                              > > > > > > (in worship).
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people
                              > to
                              > > > continuously look
                              > > > at
                              > > > > > the
                              > > > > > > Universe, as this will
                              > > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence,
                              > His
                              > > > greatness and
                              > > > that
                              > > > > > He
                              > > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone
                              > deserves
                              > > > our worship
                              > > > because
                              > > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says
                              > in
                              > > > the Qur'an:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
                              > > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will
                              > > > answer your
                              > > > prayer."
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol
                              > and
                              > > > his prayers are
                              > > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which
                              > actually
                              > > > answered his
                              > > > prayers
                              > > > > > but
                              > > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ,
                              > > > Buddha, Krishna,
                              > > > Saint
                              > > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet
                              > > > Muhammad, are not
                              > > > answered by
                              > > > > > > them, but are answered by God.
                              > Consequently,
                              > > > prayer is an act
                              > > > of
                              > > > > > > worship which should be directed to God
                              > alone.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped
                              > besides
                              > > > Him did not tell
                              > > > > > people
                              > > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets
                              > warned
                              > > > their people
                              > > > against
                              > > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam
                              > teaches
                              > > > that Prophet Jesus
                              > > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a
                              > > > human being who was
                              > > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a
                              > > > father and he
                              > > > worshipped
                              > > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of
                              > > > God. He was neither
                              > > > one
                              > > > > > > of three manifestations of God as
                              > Christians
                              > > > say, nor was a
                              > > > son
                              > > > > > born
                              > > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel)
                              > to
                              > > > worship God
                              > > > alone. He
                              > > > > > > did not tell people to worship either
                              > himself
                              > > > or his mother.
                              > > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and
                              > peace of
                              > > > God be upon
                              > > > him)
                              > > > > > did
                              > > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped,
                              > rather
                              > > > he worshipped
                              > > > God.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > However, those who claim to be the
                              > followers
                              > > > of Jesus Christ
                              > > > today
                              > > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is
                              > > > God, and others
                              > > > also
                              > > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother
                              > of
                              > > > God.'! God says
                              > > > in
                              > > > > > the
                              > > > > > > Qur'an that He will ask Prophet Jesus
                              > (mercy
                              > > > and peace of God
                              > > > be
                              > > > > > > upon him) on the Day of Judgment:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Quarn chp 5: verses 116-117.
                              > > > > > > O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you tell people:
                              > > > Take me and my
                              > > > mother
                              > > > > > as
                              > > > > > > gods besides Allah? Then he will say:
                              > Glory to
                              > > > you, I could
                              > > > never
                              > > > > > > say what I had no right to say. If I had
                              > said
                              > > > it, You would
                              > > > have
                              > > > > > > known it, You know what is within myself,
                              > but
                              > > > I do not know
                              > > > what
                              > > > > > is
                              > > > > > > within Yourself. Verily, You alone are the
                              > > > Knower of the
                              > > > unseen. I
                              > > > > > > did not say to them except what You
                              > commanded
                              > > > me; to worship
                              > > > > > Allah,
                              > > > > > > my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness
                              > > > over them as long
                              > > > as I
                              > > > > > > was among them, but when You raised me up,
                              > You
                              > > > were the
                              > > > observer
                              > > > > > > over them, and You are the witness over
                              > all
                              > > > things.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > God emphasizes in the Qur'an that Prophet
                              > > > Jesus (mercy and
                              > > > peace
                              > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > God be upon him) was neither killed nor
                              > > > crucified, but God
                              > > > raised
                              > > > > > > him up into the heavens in body and spirit
                              > and
                              > > > he will be
                              > > > returned
                              > > > > > > to the earth before the end of the world.
                              > > > Prophet Muhammad
                              > > > (mercy
                              > > > > > > and peace of God be upon him) stated that
                              > > > Prohet Jesus would
                              > > > rule
                              > > > > > > the earth according to the Islamic law,
                              > then
                              > > > he will die on
                              > > > earth
                              > > > > > > like other human beings and will be buried
                              > and
                              > > > resurrected
                              > > > like
                              > > > > > them
                              > > > > > > on the Day of Judgment. Hence, Prophet
                              > Jesus
                              > > > who was given
                              > > > life,
                              > > > > > was
                              > > > > > > born from a woman's womb and circumcised,
                              > ate,
                              > > > slept, went to
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > > toilet, grew up, prayed, and will die,
                              > should
                              > > > never be taken
                              > > > as
                              > > > > > God
                              > > > > > > as all these characteristics are not the
                              > > > attributes of God,
                              > > > but of
                              > > > > > > His creatures.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > The New Testament states that Jesus Christ
                              > > > taught his
                              > > > followers to
                              > > > > > > pray to God saying:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > (Luke 11:2 / Matthew 6:9-10)
                              > > > > > > Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be
                              > your
                              > > > name, your
                              > > > kingdom
                              > > > > > > come, your will be done on earth as it is
                              > in
                              > > > heaven."
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Also, he taught that only those who submit
                              > to
                              > > > God would
                              > > > inherit
                              > > > > > > paradise:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > (Matthew 7:21)
                              > > > > > > None of those who call me `Lord' will
                              > enter
                              > > > the Kingdom of
                              > > > God,
                              > > > > > > except one who does the will of my Father
                              > in
                              > > > heaven.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Prophet Jesus also pointed out that he
                              > himself
                              > > > submitted to
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > will
                              > > > > > > of God:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > (John 5:23)
                              > > > > > > I cannot do anything of myself. I judge
                              > as I
                              > > > hear and my
                              > > > judgment
                              > > > > > > is honest because I am not seeking my own
                              > will
                              > > > but the will of
                              > > > Him
                              > > > > > > who sent me.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > In fact, there are many reports in the
                              > Gospels
                              > > > that show that
                              > > > > > > Prophet Jesus made it clear to his
                              > followers
                              > > > that he was not
                              > > > God.
                              > > > > > > For example, when speaking about the final
                              > > > hour, he said:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > (Mark 13:32)
                              > > > > > > No one knows about that day or hour, not
                              > even
                              > > > the angels in
                              > > > > > heaven,
                              > > > > > > not the son, but only the Father.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Buddha, was a reformer who introduced a
                              > number
                              > > > of humanistic
                              > > > > > > principles in the Hindu religion practiced
                              > in
                              > > > India. He did
                              > > > not
                              > > > > > > claim to be God, nor did he suggest to
                              > his
                              > > > followers that he
                              > > > be
                              > > > > > > worshipped. Yet, today most Buddhists have
                              > > > made him their God
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > > they prostrate themselves before idols
                              > > > representing his
                              > > > likeness.
                              > > > > > > In brief, from the perspective of the
                              > object
                              > > > worshipped, all
                              > > > > > > religions today [except Islam] invite
                              > people
                              > > > to the worship of
                              > > > > > > creation!
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > God's attributes point to the fact that
                              > God
                              > > > alone deserves
                              > > > > > worship.
                              > > > > > > He is One, without relatives; He has
                              > neither
                              > > > father, son,
                              > > > mother
                              > > > > > nor
                              > > > > > > wife. He is the Eternal Absolute. He
                              > neither
                              > > > gives birth, nor
                              > > > is
                              > > > > > He
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > === message truncated ===
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > =====
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "Have you ever stood and stared at it?
                              > Marveled at
                              > > > its beauty?;
                              > > > its genius. Billions of people, just living out
                              > > > their lives --
                              > > > oblivious."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > __________________________________
                              > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
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                              > > > want.
                              > > > > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > =====
                              > > --Monte Morris
                              > > Philosopher wannabe
                              > > Japan
                              > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > __________________________________
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                              >
                              >



                              --Monte Morris
                              Philosopher wannabe
                              Japan
                              "Needs to find a good quote"


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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Monte Morris
                              honeybaby2012 wrote: Monte, The message of the quran is to everyone, the quran addresses all peoples as follows : o Man, o People, o
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 3 6:26 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
                                Monte,
                                The message of the quran is to everyone, the quran addresses all
                                peoples as follows : o Man, o People, o believers, and never say o
                                Christians or o muslims#12539;so the message of the quran is for all
                                humans and Jins.

                                ---I won't criticize the claim that the Quran is addressed to all people, but in making that claim, I would aslo place all other sacred texts, as well as numerous other writings from human history as addressed to all people. Therefore, the claim is neither unique nor terribly convincing, in light of your apparent motive.

                                When I criticized Christianity for instance I always quoted from the
                                bible, I have already researched into Christianity, Judaism and
                                paganism.

                                ----Cherry-picking quotes from the Bible that support your predetermined position does not constitute research.



                                And I do not understand why you are always angry.


                                --Bah! You haven't seen anything yet. I'm merely annoyed. Intellectual dishonesty IS one of the quickest ways to piss me off, though. In fact, I'm happy everyday and very much enjoy my life. But if you continue to evade my objections or act as though they have never been pressed, you could see some truly righteous anger before this is over. You've been warned. he he he


                                how do you explain the following contradictions in the bible:

                                The father is GOD, the son is GOD the Holy spirit is GOD.

                                With "Thou shall not take any other God before me.


                                ---See my previous posts where I explain the Trinity doctrine. Why ask a question that has already been answered? Do you think I'm stupid?

                                Quote from monte:
                                My suggestion: Take some time out, research other
                                religions on their own terms rather than through a
                                lens to criticize them with, and grow up.

                                Answer from Honey,
                                I have done deep research in the religions of Christianity, Judaism,
                                and Paganism, I read a lot about religious leaders who abandoned the
                                above ways of life and embraced Islam.

                                --Humbug. YOu've demonstrated no knowledge of any of these religions outside of the cherry picking you've done from Muslim critiques of the religions. This doesn't amount to "deep research." I've also read on Fundamentalist Christian websites, handouts, pamphlets, etc. of religious leaders who've embraced fire and brimestone Christianity. Does this prove its validity?



                                So I would say I have quite enough knowledge to discuss / debate with
                                you.

                                --Still waiting for you to demonsrate it.



                                With my best wishes,


                                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                                <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                                > Honey,
                                > I've been considering whether or not to dignify this
                                > with a reply. It seems to me that I've already given
                                > ample evidence against most of what you claim in here.
                                > Or, perhaps what you cut and pasted from a website
                                > without taking the time to read it. For example, I've
                                > already countered that Christians do not worship Mary
                                > and Buddhists do not worship a Buddha as a God. Why
                                > then, do you repeat them here? To be quite honest, I
                                > shouldn't even have to point these things out to you
                                > as they are such fundamental points as to be beyond
                                > debate. In fact, it would be impossible to find
                                > sources to back those claims up because everyone who
                                > knows anything about those religions already know
                                > those facts. They aren't even things worthy of being
                                > debated. Its like debating the color of the sky. Or if
                                > there even is a sky. Everyone already knows that it's
                                > there.
                                > You have also failed to respond to my
                                > counter-arguements to your idea that Buddhists statues
                                > and the crucifix are graven images. And you have also
                                > failed to adequately explain why Islam is not guilty
                                > of the same things that you condemn other religions
                                > for,albiet ignorantly, I might add.
                                > Tell me why this deserves to be continued.
                                > --Monte
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > > > II. THE BASIC MESSAGE OF ISLAM
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > The basic message of Islam is the same
                                > > message of all the
                                > > > previous
                                > > > > > > prophets: worship God alone and avoid
                                > > worshipping anything
                                > > > besides
                                > > > > > > Him, whether it is a person, place or thing,
                                > > directly or
                                > > > > > indirectly.
                                > > > > > > This basic principle of Monotheism is
                                > > contained in the opening
                                > > > > > > chapter of the Quran, known as Soorat
                                > > Al-Faatihah, verse
                                > > > 4: "You
                                > > > > > > alone we worship and from you alone we do
                                > > seek help."
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > In chp 4: verse 37, God also said:
                                > > > > > > Worship Allah and do not associate partners
                                > > with Him.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Muhammad, the last Prophet (mercy and peace
                                > > of God be upon
                                > > > him) is
                                > > > > > > reported to have said: "Anyone who says:
                                > > There is no god
                                > > > worthy of
                                > > > > > > worship but Allah, and dies holding that
                                > > belief will be
                                > > > granted
                                > > > > > > paradise.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > II. PROOFS FOR GOD'S RIGHT OF WORSHIP
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Only God should be worshipped because He is
                                > > the Creator and
                                > > > > > > sustainer of all that exists. This Great
                                > > Universe and
                                > > > everything
                                > > > > > > that is in it cannot be the product of
                                > > chance, and could not
                                > > > have
                                > > > > > > created itself. Signs testifying that God is
                                > > the only Creator
                                > > > can
                                > > > > > be
                                > > > > > > seen throughout the earth and in the very
                                > > soul of each person.
                                > > > God
                                > > > > > > said in the Qur'an:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Quran chp 14: verses 32-34
                                > > > > > > It is Allah who Ceated the Sky and the
                                > > Earth, and sent down
                                > > > from
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > > sky water by which He brought forth fruits
                                > > for your
                                > > > sustenance. He
                                > > > > > > subjected for you the Ships to sail upon the
                                > > Sea at His
                                > > > command,
                                > > > > > and
                                > > > > > > He subjected for you the Rivers. And He
                                > > subjected for you the
                                > > > Sun
                                > > > > > > and Moon in continuous cycles, and He
                                > > subjected for you the
                                > > > Night
                                > > > > > > and Day. And He gave you all you asked Him
                                > > for.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > In the Qur'an, God mentions Prophet
                                > > Abraham's search for truth
                                > > > as
                                > > > > > an
                                > > > > > > example of how those who follow God's signs
                                > > will be rightly
                                > > > guided
                                > > > > > > to the worship of Him alone; God said:
                                > > > > > > Quarn chp 6: verses 75-79
                                > > > > > > In this way we showed Abraham the kingdom of
                                > > the heavens and
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > > earth so that he would have faith with
                                > > understanding and
                                > > > > > certainty.
                                > > > > > > When the night covered him with darkness, he
                                > > saw a star and
                                > > > > > > said: `This is my Lord', but when it set, he
                                > > said: `I don't
                                > > > like
                                > > > > > > those that set.' When he saw the moon rising
                                > > up, he said:
                                > > > `This is
                                > > > > > > my Lord', but when it set, he said: `Unless
                                > > my Lord guides me,
                                > > > I
                                > > > > > > will certainly be among the people who went
                                > > astray.' When he
                                > > > saw
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > > sun rising up he said: `This is my Lord,
                                > > this is the greatest
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > > all.' But when it set, he said: `O my
                                > > people! I am indeed free
                                > > > > > from
                                > > > > > > what you join as partners with Allah.
                                > > > > > > Verily, I have turned my face towards Allah
                                > > who created the
                                > > > > > heavens
                                > > > > > > and the earth and I reject those who
                                > > associate partners with
                                > > > Allah
                                > > > > > > (in worship).
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Actually, in the Qur'an God calls people to
                                > > continuously look
                                > > > at
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > > Universe, as this will
                                > > > > > > affirm the divine truth of His existence,
                                > > His greatness and
                                > > > that
                                > > > > > He
                                > > > > > > alone should be worshipped. God alone
                                > > deserves our worship
                                > > > because
                                > > > > > > only He can answer our prayers. God says in
                                > > the Qur'an:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Quarn chp 40: verses 60.
                                > > > > > > "And your Lord says: Call on Me and I will
                                > > answer your
                                > > > prayer."
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Hence, if a human being prays to an idol and
                                > > his prayers are
                                > > > > > > answered, it is not the idol which actually
                                > > answered his
                                > > > prayers
                                > > > > > but
                                > > > > > > God. Similarly, prayers to Jesus Christ,
                                > > Buddha, Krishna,
                                > > > Saint
                                > > > > > > Christopher, Saint Jude or to Prophet
                                > > Muhammad, are not
                                > > > answered by
                                > > > > > > them, but are answered by God. Consequently,
                                > > prayer is an act
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > > worship which should be directed to God
                                > > alone.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Indeed, prophets who are worshipped besides
                                > > Him did not tell
                                > > > > > people
                                > > > > > > to worship them. Instead, the prophets
                                > > warned their people
                                > > > against
                                > > > > > > doing just that. For example, Islam teaches
                                > > that Prophet Jesus
                                > > > > > > (mercy and peace of God be upon him) was a
                                > > human being who was
                                > > > > > > created by God in a miraculous way.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > He was born of a mother, Mary, without a
                                > > father and he
                                > > > worshipped
                                > > > > > > God. He was not God, nor was he the son of
                                > > God. He was neither
                                > > > one
                                > > > > > > of three manifestations of God as Christians
                                > > say, nor was a
                                > > > son
                                > > > > > born
                                > > > > > > out of wedlock as the Jews say.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > He told his people (the tribes of Israel) to
                                > > worship God
                                > > > alone. He
                                > > > > > > did not tell people to worship either
                                > > himself or his mother.
                                > > > > > > Furthermore, Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace
                                > > of God be upon
                                > > > him)
                                > > > > > did
                                > > > > > > not worship himself when he worshipped,
                                > > rather he worshipped
                                > > > God.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > However, those who claim to be the followers
                                > > of Jesus Christ
                                > > > today
                                > > > > > > worship Jesus himself, claiming that he is
                                > > God, and others
                                > > > also
                                > > > > > > worship his mother calling her `the mother
                                > > of God.'! God says
                                > > > in
                                > > >
                                > > === message truncated ===
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > =====
                                > >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at
                                > > its beauty?; its genius. Billions of people, just
                                > > living out their lives -- oblivious."
                                > >
                                > > __________________________________
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                                > =====
                                > --Monte Morris
                                > Philosopher wannabe
                                > Japan
                                > "Needs to find a good quote"
                                >
                                >
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                              • masqueradeux
                                how do you explain the following contradictions in the bible: The father is GOD, the son is GOD the Holy spirit is GOD. With Thou shall not take any other God
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 27, 2004
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                                  how do you explain the following contradictions in the bible:

                                  The father is GOD, the son is GOD the Holy spirit is GOD.

                                  With "Thou shall not take any other God before me."

                                  In trinitarian theology, this problem is solved by stipulating that
                                  the word "God" in the commandment/verse "Though shall not take any
                                  other God before for me" is reffering to the Godhead, which is the
                                  trunity of the father son and holy spirit. THus, the word 'God' in
                                  the first sentence you wrote is NOT reffering to the Godhead of the
                                  second senstence but rather each individual member of the Godhead.
                                  Each member of the Godhead is God in so far as they each are an
                                  essential part of the triune Godhead, such that if one of them
                                  ceased to be (stopped existing) the Godhead itself would be
                                  destroyed.

                                  So there is two senses to the word 'God,'and making this distinction
                                  between the two senses avoids the numerical confusion; three persons
                                  are essential memebers of one God, but individually they are not the
                                  trinity since the collectively make up the Trinity.

                                  If you're familiar with Platonism, I also think the Trinity does
                                  wonders for solving classical philosophical problems. I can send
                                  you my paper on it, if you like. This of course doesn't mean that
                                  the Trinity exists per se, but it does vindicate as a internally
                                  coherent.

                                  -Derek
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