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[The Existential Society] Re: the ultimate truth -Thou shalt have no other gods before me

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  • honeybaby2012
    Dear Monte, Monte s Question: ……2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 20, 2004
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      Dear Monte,


      Monte's Question:
      ……2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
      in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
      earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

      This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
      been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
      viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
      evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
      As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
      different than what you posted.

      In the name of Allah Most Gracious most Merciful.
      Answer from Honey:
      Dear Monte,
      The 10 commandments are v. well known, I searched for the 10
      commandments, in google and I got the following :

      "And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…
      ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

      TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of
      anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
      that is in the water under the earth.'

      THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
      Here is the site :
      http://www.10-commandments.org



      …Monte's Question:
      ………and believes that thier invocations are directed to the same
      Being, are they in violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus
      20:5, which states that
      "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
      reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
      images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
      about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
      makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
      is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3
      parts, each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.


      Answer from Honey.
      To me worshipping is none other than praying to the worshipped being
      asking him to do things such as :
      to lift a burden, to heal the sick or to save from the punishment of
      the hell fire etc…, I call this worship, and we all know that most
      Christians worship Jesus peace be upon him or Mary may Allah be
      please with her.


      Monte's Question:
      2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
      > was shattered with> the image of Jesus on the cross and the image
      of> Mary#12539;

      --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
      looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
      Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
      Nothing says that one may not make an

      Answer from Honey:
      If what I understood from the above is correct; then let me rephrase
      what you are saying: we are not worshiping the graven images of Jesus
      or Mary, these are only symbols but we are worshipping Jesus himself
      or Mary the person.
      I believe this is in violation of the 1st and 2nd commandments.
      The pagans will say exactly the same thing.

      http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
      …… development of Christian thought, after Paul,
      wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire book can be read on-
      line at :
      http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
      For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
      wrote a book ofthis magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
      Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
      before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
      arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.

      Answer from Honey.
      Thanks… so to this day.. for the past 2000 years, Christians still
      debate the issue of trinity.
      Here is what the quran said to people about the trinity 1400 years
      ago:

      The quran says :
      O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
      Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more
      than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary,
      and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
      Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for
      Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a
      son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
      is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

      Quran 5.77. Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion
      the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor
      follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,
      who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

      Here a v. interesting story I read on the internet about an innocent
      American master degree student… who was searching for the truth, how
      the bishop or the priest told her that the trinity cannot be
      explained….. and when she ran away to the far east to embrace
      Buddhism she was told to prostrate to the statue of Buddaha…. And how
      finally God guided her to the truth and how she embraced Islam…

      http://www.islamonline.net/english/journey/2004/02/jour01.shtml

      You mentioned about the hair of Prophet Mohammed Peace be upon him,
      to my knowledge the hair of Mohammed is never worshipped, but some
      people treat it as relic.

      With my best wishes.
      Honey.


      --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
      <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
      > Honey,
      > As I stated earlier, I don't want to get involved in a huge
      controversy on this subject. However, I do have some comments for you.
      >
      > > Let us take the 1st two commandments.
      > >
      > > 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
      > >
      > > 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
      > >
      > > 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
      > > in vain;
      > >
      > > The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I
      > > copied them from a
      > > a bible site.
      > --And which site might that be? Not that it's a big deal. I can go
      to Google.com and type in "10 Commandments," Or I can also go here
      to http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm
      > This is a site that takes the time to detail the 10 Commandments,
      give citations of where they are in the Bible, as well as states them
      as they appear in one of the translations. Would you like to see how
      the Bible, in the NRSV (New Standard Revised Translation) puts it?
      > From Exodus 20:4 (though the Commandments are not necessarily
      presented in the order, as presented in Exodus)
      > 1. (Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
      for I the Lord your God am a jealous God.
      > 2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
      in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
      earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
      >
      > This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
      been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
      viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
      evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
      > As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
      different than what you posted.
      > >
      > > To me most Christians have broken the 2 most
      > > important commandments :
      > >
      > > 1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was
      > > shattered with the
      > > father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit
      > > (Gabriel) is God.
      >
      > --I'll take issue with this in that the concept of the Trinity
      states that God is one God. While the critique I offered of the
      Trinity shows how a Christian could be in violation of this
      Commandment. If a Christian worships in good faith, and believes that
      thier invocations are directed to the same Being, are they in
      violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus 20:5, which states
      that "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
      reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
      images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
      about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
      makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
      is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3 parts,
      each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.
      >
      > 2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
      > > was shattered with
      > > the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of
      > > Mary#12539;
      >
      > --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
      looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
      Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
      Nothing says that one may not make an image. If that were so, we
      would not have any art or pictures, or anything else of this sort.
      God did not forbid the use of images, only the way in which they are
      used.
      > The charge is something that goes back to the Gentiles, who were
      pagan and worshipped images, or false gods. As can be cited numerous
      times in the Old Testament, God would show his face only to the most
      righteous. The implication being that not all were worthy of seeing
      God's face, and therefore, no image was needed to worship God, as God
      was not like the false gods of the Gentiles.
      > I would further argue that the image of Jesus on the Cross, or the
      pictures and statues of of Mary are not worshiped. They serve as
      symbols and reminders of one's faith, but not as objects of worship.
      Therefore, they are not, a priori, a violation of this Commandment.
      Again, it goes back to the way that things are USED. This line of
      reasoning is also invoked by Muslims who consider shreds of
      Mohammed's hair to be sacred. There are plenty of other examples of
      actions, taken by some Muslims, that might be considered worshipful
      of Mohammed, to the expense of Allah. Why should not these objects
      fall under the same category, by your reasoning? Is it because they
      are not "an image?" If that is the case, then couldn't such behavior
      be an infraction of the First Commandment, "you shall have no god
      before me"? What it comes back down to is one's behavior. One of the
      central principles of Islam is to bend one's will to Allah's. In that
      case, following Allah's will is more important than
      > following established doctrine or dogma, if one can reasonable be
      sure that it is wrong. That is why there is no one Christian
      doctrine. That is why there is no one established Islamic doctrine,
      though one will always find people in both Christian and Islamic
      schools of thought who think they have the monopoly on truth.
      >
      > Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine
      > > originated:
      > > http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
      > >
      > --I visited this site, and I have to say that it is very poor. It
      fails to discuss at length any of the important facts, lacks
      citations, and analysis. Take a look at these sites if you want
      something of any substance. http://home.rmci.net/cbolton/TRIN.HTM (a
      very good article on the history of the Trinity conflict that
      culminated in the Council of Nicea.) What you will also find here,
      Honey, is that the Trinity is still a subject of debate in today's
      Christian churches, where not all believe in it, and many others
      reject outright. To say that all Christians are in violation of the
      first two Commandments shows a lack of understanding of Christianity.
      > --In case anyone wants more information on the Trinity debate,
      check this site: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/trinity2.htm
      > --To add more fuel to the fire, St. Augustine of Hippo, considered
      to be the 2nd most influential person to the development of Christian
      thought, after Paul, wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire
      book can be read on-line at :
      http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
      > For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
      wrote a book of this magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
      Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
      before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
      arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.
      >
      > --Monte
      >
      >
      >
      > > With my best wishes to all,
      > > Honey.
      > >
      > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
      > > Morris
      > > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
      > > > Hello all,
      > > > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
      > > > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning
      > > rod
      > > > for criticism from a number of different
      > > religions,
      > > > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence,"
      > > if
      > > > you prefer to label it that way.
      > > > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a
      > > large
      > > > number of Christians who behave in such a manner
      > > as
      > > > that it appears that they are interacting with
      > > three
      > > > different entities. The criticism is that if each
      > > of
      > > > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
      > > > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
      > > > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
      > > > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong.
      > > It is
      > > > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the
      > > tree
      > > > is judged by its fruit."
      > > >
      > > > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the
      > > case
      > > > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the
      > > moralist
      > > > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a
      > > heavy
      > > > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las
      > > Vegas
      > > > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
      > > > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
      > > > says. His actions show that his appearance is
      > > nothing
      > > > more than that--an appearance.
      > > > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity
      > > is
      > > > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that
      > > those
      > > > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities.
      > > The
      > > > statement that they are all one and the same
      > > becomes
      > > > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then
      > > why
      > > > separate the three and invoke them at different
      > > times?
      > > > Similarly, there are also Christian charges
      > > against
      > > > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same
      > > type of
      > > > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
      > > > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God.
      > > However,
      > > > despite this retort, that doesn't make the
      > > arguement
      > > > go away.
      > > > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
      > > > theology, the critique still stands so long as
      > > > practitioners of Christianity behave as though
      > > they
      > > > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No
      > > amount of
      > > > words, whether established Christian doctrine or
      > > not,
      > > > is going to defend you from it. By the actions,
      > > the
      > > > words are shown to be untrue.
      > > > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and
      > > the
      > > > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is
      > > not
      > > > monothiestic.
      > > > Have a good day!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Dear Sir,
      > > > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of
      > > the
      > > > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
      > > > > Christianity.
      > > > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians
      > > are
      > > > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
      > > > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly
      > > don't
      > > > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this:
      > > God,
      > > > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches
      > > which
      > > > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is
      > > God.
      > > > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain,
      > > the
      > > > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
      > > > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ
      > > the
      > > > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology
      > > holds
      > > > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as
      > > well
      > > > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally,
      > > and
      > > > > all have been one and seperate.
      > > > > To your second set of points regarding Christ.
      > > To
      > > > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
      > > > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
      > > > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play.
      > > Those
      > > > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
      > > > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need
      > > anyone
      > > > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The
      > > seperation
      > > > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none
      > > of
      > > > > these saints have divine power over anything in
      > > our
      > > > > lives anymore.
      > > > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all
      > > the
      > > > > Catholics of the World are not
      > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
      > > > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief
      > > are
      > > > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was
      > > all-inclusive,
      > > > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
      > > > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
      > > > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
      > > > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
      > > > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved
      > > is to
      > > > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
      > > > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic,
      > > Presbyterian,
      > > > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
      > > > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
      > > > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
      > > > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
      > > > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own
      > > faith
      > > > > justice by trying to convince others by these
      > > false
      > > > > points. You are better than that.
      > > > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and
      > > to
      > > > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your
      > > own
      > > > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
      > > > >
      > > > > Will Quinn
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Dear All
      > > > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
      > > > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
      > > > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very
      > > clear,
      > > > > i.e. God is
      > > > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
      > > > > opposite way;
      > > > >
      > > > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel)
      > > Peace
      > > > > be upon them all
      > > > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there
      > > are 3
      > > > > Gods. i.e. God
      > > > > is one of three in a Trinity.
      > > > >
      > > > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping
      > > God
      > > > > Almighty the
      > > > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
      > > > > instead worship Jesus
      > > > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of
      > > Mary.
      > > > >
      > > > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most
      > > holy
      > > > > and call upon
      > > > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man
      > > and
      > > > > Jesus the son of
      > > > > Mary.
      > > > >
      > > > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The
      > > Injeel,
      > > > > and The Quran has
      > > > > to say about the 1st commandment.
      > > > >
      > > > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
      > > > > might know that the
      > > > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
      > > > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God;
      > > for
      > > > > there is none
      > > > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
      > > > > according to all that we
      > > > > have heard with our ears].
      > > > >
      > > > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and
      > > doest
      > > > > wondrous things,
      > > > > thou alone art God].
      > > > >
      > > > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And#12539;"Which
      > > > commandment
      > > > > is the first of
      > > > > all?"
      > > > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel:
      > > The
      > > > > Lord our God,
      > > > > the Lord is one].
      > > > >
      > > > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas
      > > 112:1-4
      > > > > Say: He is God,
      > > > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
      > > > > begetteth not, nor
      > > > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto
      > > Him].
      > > > >
      > > > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the
      > > World
      > > > > are not
      > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons
      > > say
      > > > > they have a
      > > > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them
      > > until
      > > > > the day of
      > > > > Judgement.
      > > > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors
      > > and
      > > > > Jesus is a god
      > > > > or an Angel,
      > > > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
      > > > > only way to heaven
      > > > > is through his sect.
      > > > >
      > > > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do
      > > not
      > > > > know if Jehovah's
      > > > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced
      > > him
      > > > > to a god or mere
      > > > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
      > > > > better than Angel,
      > > > > because Angels do not have free will).
      > > > >
      > > > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about
      > > this.
      > > > >
      > > > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in
      > > repentance
      > > > > to Him, and fear
      > > > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye
      > > among
      > > > > those who join
      > > > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their
      > > Religion,
      > > > > and become (mere)
      > > > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is
      > > with
      > > > > itself!].
      > > > >
      > > > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son
      > > of
      > > > > Mary and his
      > > > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on
      > > high
      > > > > ground, affording
      > > > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O
      > > ye
      > > > > messengers! enjoy
      > > > > (all) things good and pure, and work
      > > righteousness:
      > > > > for I am well-
      > > > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
      > > > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
      > > > > Brotherhood. And I
      > > > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me
      > > (and
      > > > > no other). But
      > > > > people have cut off their affair (of unity),
      > > between
      > > > > them, into
      > > > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
      > > > > itself. But leave
      > > > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
      > > > > Do they think that because We have granted them
      > > > > abundance of wealth
      > > > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
      > > > > Nay, they do not
      > > > > understand].
      > > > >
      > > > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus
      > > &
      > > > > the priests are
      > > > > claiming that Jesus is God.
      > > > >
      > > > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
      > > > >
      > > > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
      > > > > Truth.
      > > > >
      > > > > Here is my favourite and the most
      > > > > interesting/scientific site:
      > > > >
      > > > > www.it-is-truth.org
      > > > > www.it-is-truth.net
      > > > >
      > > > > Honey.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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      > > > Philosopher wannabe
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    • (*~0~*)
      No offense, but what do these debates or comments about biblical interpretation have to do with Existentialism, as in the traditional philosophy of
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 20, 2004
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        No offense, but what do these debates or comments about biblical
        interpretation have to do with Existentialism, as in the
        traditional philosophy of Existentialism...?
        Also, Honey I'm wondering which Existentialist philosophers you've
        read or are interested in, since this is a list concerned with
        Existetialism and all... I'm curious because your ideas or comments
        don't seem very Existential, at least in the traditional sense...

        amanda
      • Monte Morris
        Thanks for your reply. I will add some of my comments below. honeybaby2012 wrote: Dear Monte, Monte s Question: #12539;2. (Exodus
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 20, 2004
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          Thanks for your reply. I will add some of my comments below.

          honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:

          Dear Monte,


          Monte's Question:
          #12539;2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
          in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
          earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

          This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
          been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
          viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
          evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
          As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
          different than what you posted.

          In the name of Allah Most Gracious most Merciful.
          Answer from Honey:
          Dear Monte,
          The 10 commandments are v. well known, I searched for the 10
          commandments, in google and I got the following :

          "And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God#12539;lt;BR> ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

          TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of
          anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
          that is in the water under the earth.'

          THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
          Here is the site :
          http://www.10-commandments.org

          ---The Ten Commandments are well known, but the translations differ, depending on the version of the Bible used. I gave you a citation from the NRSV, which is the most widely accepted scholarly edition. The reason for this is that, rather than translating the Bible and trying to make it justify pre-existing doctrine or tradition, this version attempts to translate into English what was said, as opposed to what is infered from tradition or pre-conceived theological notions. Thus, I will take the translation that I gave to you out of hte NRSV over the ones from the 10 commandments site. As you can see, the wording is very different, and from these different translations, different ideas of theology and belief can develop.

          #12539;onte's Question:
          #12539;#12539;nd believes that thier invocations are directed to the same
          Being, are they in violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus
          20:5, which states that
          "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
          reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
          images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
          about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
          makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
          is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3
          parts, each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.


          Answer from Honey.
          To me worshipping is none other than praying to the worshipped being
          asking him to do things such as :
          to lift a burden, to heal the sick or to save from the punishment of
          the hell fire etc#12539; I call this worship, and we all know that most
          Christians worship Jesus peace be upon him or Mary may Allah be
          please with her.


          --Honey, your ignorance of Christianity truly shows here. There is no Christian sect that worships Mary, and there are only a small number of Catholics who would claim that she has a direct role in the world. Catholic tradition holds in the belief of Saints who can be invoked for protection or help in certain situations, and sometimes Mary is seen as an open ear for trouble. However, most Catholics don't see these traditions as valid, and they are completely absent from Protestant and Orthodox beliefs. To make the claim that "we all know most Christians worship Jesus and Mary" is absolutely false. ALL Christians worship Jesus as they belief Jesus WAS God, but there are none who worship Mary. Whereever did you get this idea?



          Monte's Question:
          2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
          > was shattered with> the image of Jesus on the cross and the image
          of> Mary#12539;

          I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
          looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
          Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
          Nothing says that one may not make an

          Answer from Honey:
          If what I understood from the above is correct; then let me rephrase
          what you are saying: we are not worshiping the graven images of Jesus
          or Mary, these are only symbols but we are worshipping Jesus himself
          or Mary the person.
          I believe this is in violation of the 1st and 2nd commandments.
          The pagans will say exactly the same thing.


          ---No, you completely misunderstood what I said. The images are symbols, which point to a particular belief, or serve as reminders of faith. Jesus is not worshipped as a person, but as God. Christians believe that Jesus was God. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. Mary is not worshipped at all, but with some Catholics takes a special place for having brought Christ into the world so that he could atone for humanity's sins. Mary's influence is actually quite small, even in the realm of Catholicism. She is mostly talked about within mystical traditions. If they, as humans, were worshipped, then they would be in violation of the 1st Commandment. But, since they images are never worshipped, they would not be in violation of the 2nd Commandment.


          http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
          #12539; development of Christian thought, after Paul,
          wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire book can be read on-
          line at :
          http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
          For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
          wrote a book ofthis magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
          Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
          before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
          arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.

          Answer from Honey.
          Thanks#12539;so to this day.. for the past 2000 years, Christians still
          debate the issue of trinity.
          Here is what the quran said to people about the trinity 1400 years
          ago:

          The quran says :
          O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
          Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more
          than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary,
          and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
          Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for
          Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a
          son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
          is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

          Quran 5.77. Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion
          the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor
          follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,
          who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

          ---That's nice. So, now you know that many Christians agree with you that the Trinity is not important. So, why do you insist on debating it? I don't find much to be gained from bickering about theology. And, from my understanding of the Quran, the issue is to have a personal relationship with God, and not to be so concerned with theology. This is also true of most Christians in practice, whether they accept the idea of the Trinity or not. If you take the time to observe the actions of Christians, you won't find any evidence of the Trinity in most cases. It's mostly a matter of semantics. Most Christians will hold that God is one, but has 3 manifestations. As i stated earlier, one falls into violation of the 10 Commandments if their actions suggest that they are worshipping 3 distinct beings. YOu are taking issue with a theology, one that few practing Christians have a strong opinion on, and then denouncing all of Christianity because of it. My opinion is that your methodology is
          flawed.

          Here a v. interesting story I read on the internet about an innocent
          American master degree student#12539;who was searching for the truth, how
          the bishop or the priest told her that the trinity cannot be
          explained#12539;. and when she ran away to the far east to embrace
          Buddhism she was told to prostrate to the statue of Buddaha#12539; And how
          finally God guided her to the truth and how she embraced Islam#12539;lt;BR>
          http://www.islamonline.net/english/journey/2004/02/jour01.shtml

          ---OK. Unfortunately for this story Buddha is not a god and Buddhists don't prostrate in front of statues. In order to understand this story, you have to understand Buddhism, which is much more complex than Christianity in the vast amount of differences there are in it. In short, Buddhas are enightened humans, people who have attained Nirvana and are revered as teachers. In Japan, where this story allegedly takes place, bowing is considered a sign of respect. It is neither worship nor prostration. The statues depict the teachers of the particular school of thought. As such, when the students of the school in which one enlists, are asked to bow, it is to show respect to the person whose knowledge is being passed on to them. The statues are much like statues or leaders from other parts of the world. THey are not divine, they are not worshipped. I think it's time to learn a little about the other faiths in the world, along with the cultures and history of the areas they are in. To
          further make this case, students in martial arts in Japan will bow to pictures, whether film or a drawing or a painting, of the founder of the dojo they practice in. It's all about respect.

          You mentioned about the hair of Prophet Mohammed Peace be upon him,
          to my knowledge the hair of Mohammed is never worshipped, but some
          people treat it as relic.

          --And no one worships the crucifix in Christianity, the statues of Mary or the statues of the Bodhisatvas. But that doesn't stop you from condemning them. Why, when the objects alleged to be of Mohammad are treated with such reverence, and at times, prayed to, are you free from judgement? Just a thought.



          With my best wishes.
          Honey.


          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
          <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
          > Honey,
          > As I stated earlier, I don't want to get involved in a huge
          controversy on this subject. However, I do have some comments for you.
          >
          > > Let us take the 1st two commandments.
          > >
          > > 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
          > >
          > > 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
          > >
          > > 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
          > > in vain;
          > >
          > > The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I
          > > copied them from a
          > > a bible site.
          > --And which site might that be? Not that it's a big deal. I can go
          to Google.com and type in "10 Commandments," Or I can also go here
          to http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm
          > This is a site that takes the time to detail the 10 Commandments,
          give citations of where they are in the Bible, as well as states them
          as they appear in one of the translations. Would you like to see how
          the Bible, in the NRSV (New Standard Revised Translation) puts it?
          > From Exodus 20:4 (though the Commandments are not necessarily
          presented in the order, as presented in Exodus)
          > 1. (Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
          for I the Lord your God am a jealous God.
          > 2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
          in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
          earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
          >
          > This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
          been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
          viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
          evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
          > As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
          different than what you posted.
          > >
          > > To me most Christians have broken the 2 most
          > > important commandments :
          > >
          > > 1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was
          > > shattered with the
          > > father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit
          > > (Gabriel) is God.
          >
          > --I'll take issue with this in that the concept of the Trinity
          states that God is one God. While the critique I offered of the
          Trinity shows how a Christian could be in violation of this
          Commandment. If a Christian worships in good faith, and believes that
          thier invocations are directed to the same Being, are they in
          violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus 20:5, which states
          that "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
          reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
          images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
          about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
          makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
          is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3 parts,
          each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.
          >
          > 2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
          > > was shattered with
          > > the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of
          > > Mary#12539;
          >
          > --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
          looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
          Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
          Nothing says that one may not make an image. If that were so, we
          would not have any art or pictures, or anything else of this sort.
          God did not forbid the use of images, only the way in which they are
          used.
          > The charge is something that goes back to the Gentiles, who were
          pagan and worshipped images, or false gods. As can be cited numerous
          times in the Old Testament, God would show his face only to the most
          righteous. The implication being that not all were worthy of seeing
          God's face, and therefore, no image was needed to worship God, as God
          was not like the false gods of the Gentiles.
          > I would further argue that the image of Jesus on the Cross, or the
          pictures and statues of of Mary are not worshiped. They serve as
          symbols and reminders of one's faith, but not as objects of worship.
          Therefore, they are not, a priori, a violation of this Commandment.
          Again, it goes back to the way that things are USED. This line of
          reasoning is also invoked by Muslims who consider shreds of
          Mohammed's hair to be sacred. There are plenty of other examples of
          actions, taken by some Muslims, that might be considered worshipful
          of Mohammed, to the expense of Allah. Why should not these objects
          fall under the same category, by your reasoning? Is it because they
          are not "an image?" If that is the case, then couldn't such behavior
          be an infraction of the First Commandment, "you shall have no god
          before me"? What it comes back down to is one's behavior. One of the
          central principles of Islam is to bend one's will to Allah's. In that
          case, following Allah's will is more important than
          > following established doctrine or dogma, if one can reasonable be
          sure that it is wrong. That is why there is no one Christian
          doctrine. That is why there is no one established Islamic doctrine,
          though one will always find people in both Christian and Islamic
          schools of thought who think they have the monopoly on truth.
          >
          > Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine
          > > originated:
          > > http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
          > >
          > --I visited this site, and I have to say that it is very poor. It
          fails to discuss at length any of the important facts, lacks
          citations, and analysis. Take a look at these sites if you want
          something of any substance. http://home.rmci.net/cbolton/TRIN.HTM (a
          very good article on the history of the Trinity conflict that
          culminated in the Council of Nicea.) What you will also find here,
          Honey, is that the Trinity is still a subject of debate in today's
          Christian churches, where not all believe in it, and many others
          reject outright. To say that all Christians are in violation of the
          first two Commandments shows a lack of understanding of Christianity.
          > --In case anyone wants more information on the Trinity debate,
          check this site: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/trinity2.htm
          > --To add more fuel to the fire, St. Augustine of Hippo, considered
          to be the 2nd most influential person to the development of Christian
          thought, after Paul, wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire
          book can be read on-line at :
          http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
          > For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
          wrote a book of this magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
          Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
          before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
          arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.
          >
          > --Monte
          >
          >
          >
          > > With my best wishes to all,
          > > Honey.
          > >
          > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
          > > Morris
          > > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
          > > > Hello all,
          > > > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
          > > > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning
          > > rod
          > > > for criticism from a number of different
          > > religions,
          > > > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence,"
          > > if
          > > > you prefer to label it that way.
          > > > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a
          > > large
          > > > number of Christians who behave in such a manner
          > > as
          > > > that it appears that they are interacting with
          > > three
          > > > different entities. The criticism is that if each
          > > of
          > > > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
          > > > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
          > > > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
          > > > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong.
          > > It is
          > > > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the
          > > tree
          > > > is judged by its fruit."
          > > >
          > > > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the
          > > case
          > > > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the
          > > moralist
          > > > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a
          > > heavy
          > > > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las
          > > Vegas
          > > > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
          > > > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
          > > > says. His actions show that his appearance is
          > > nothing
          > > > more than that--an appearance.
          > > > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity
          > > is
          > > > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that
          > > those
          > > > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities.
          > > The
          > > > statement that they are all one and the same
          > > becomes
          > > > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then
          > > why
          > > > separate the three and invoke them at different
          > > times?
          > > > Similarly, there are also Christian charges
          > > against
          > > > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same
          > > type of
          > > > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
          > > > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God.
          > > However,
          > > > despite this retort, that doesn't make the
          > > arguement
          > > > go away.
          > > > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
          > > > theology, the critique still stands so long as
          > > > practitioners of Christianity behave as though
          > > they
          > > > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No
          > > amount of
          > > > words, whether established Christian doctrine or
          > > not,
          > > > is going to defend you from it. By the actions,
          > > the
          > > > words are shown to be untrue.
          > > > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and
          > > the
          > > > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is
          > > not
          > > > monothiestic.
          > > > Have a good day!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
          > > > > Dear Sir,
          > > > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of
          > > the
          > > > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
          > > > > Christianity.
          > > > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians
          > > are
          > > > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
          > > > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly
          > > don't
          > > > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this:
          > > God,
          > > > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches
          > > which
          > > > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is
          > > God.
          > > > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain,
          > > the
          > > > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
          > > > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ
          > > the
          > > > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology
          > > holds
          > > > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as
          > > well
          > > > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally,
          > > and
          > > > > all have been one and seperate.
          > > > > To your second set of points regarding Christ.
          > > To
          > > > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
          > > > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
          > > > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play.
          > > Those
          > > > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
          > > > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need
          > > anyone
          > > > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The
          > > seperation
          > > > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none
          > > of
          > > > > these saints have divine power over anything in
          > > our
          > > > > lives anymore.
          > > > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all
          > > the
          > > > > Catholics of the World are not
          > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
          > > > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief
          > > are
          > > > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was
          > > all-inclusive,
          > > > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
          > > > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
          > > > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
          > > > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
          > > > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved
          > > is to
          > > > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
          > > > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic,
          > > Presbyterian,
          > > > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
          > > > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
          > > > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
          > > > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
          > > > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own
          > > faith
          > > > > justice by trying to convince others by these
          > > false
          > > > > points. You are better than that.
          > > > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and
          > > to
          > > > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your
          > > own
          > > > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
          > > > >
          > > > > Will Quinn
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
          > > > > Dear All
          > > > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
          > > > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
          > > > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very
          > > clear,
          > > > > i.e. God is
          > > > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
          > > > >
          > > > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
          > > > > opposite way;
          > > > >
          > > > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel)
          > > Peace
          > > > > be upon them all
          > > > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there
          > > are 3
          > > > > Gods. i.e. God
          > > > > is one of three in a Trinity.
          > > > >
          > > > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping
          > > God
          > > > > Almighty the
          > > > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
          > > > > instead worship Jesus
          > > > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of
          > > Mary.
          > > > >
          > > > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most
          > > holy
          > > > > and call upon
          > > > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man
          > > and
          > > > > Jesus the son of
          > > > > Mary.
          > > > >
          > > > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The
          > > Injeel,
          > > > > and The Quran has
          > > > > to say about the 1st commandment.
          > > > >
          > > > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
          > > > > might know that the
          > > > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
          > > > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God;
          > > for
          > > > > there is none
          > > > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
          > > > > according to all that we
          > > > > have heard with our ears].
          > > > >
          > > > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and
          > > doest
          > > > > wondrous things,
          > > > > thou alone art God].
          > > > >
          > > > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And#12539;"Which
          > > > commandment
          > > > > is the first of
          > > > > all?"
          > > > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel:
          > > The
          > > > > Lord our God,
          > > > > the Lord is one].
          > > > >
          > > > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas
          > > 112:1-4
          > > > > Say: He is God,
          > > > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
          > > > > begetteth not, nor
          > > > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto
          > > Him].
          > > > >
          > > > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the
          > > World
          > > > > are not
          > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons
          > > say
          > > > > they have a
          > > > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them
          > > until
          > > > > the day of
          > > > > Judgement.
          > > > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors
          > > and
          > > > > Jesus is a god
          > > > > or an Angel,
          > > > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
          > > > > only way to heaven
          > > > > is through his sect.
          > > > >
          > > > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do
          > > not
          > > > > know if Jehovah's
          > > > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced
          > > him
          > > > > to a god or mere
          > > > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
          > > > > better than Angel,
          > > > > because Angels do not have free will).
          > > > >
          > > > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about
          > > this.
          > > > >
          > > > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in
          > > repentance
          > > > > to Him, and fear
          > > > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye
          > > among
          > > > > those who join
          > > > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their
          > > Religion,
          > > > > and become (mere)
          > > > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is
          > > with
          > > > > itself!].
          > > > >
          > > > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son
          > > of
          > > > > Mary and his
          > > > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on
          > > high
          > > > > ground, affording
          > > > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O
          > > ye
          > > > > messengers! enjoy
          > > > > (all) things good and pure, and work
          > > righteousness:
          > > > > for I am well-
          > > > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
          > > > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
          > > > > Brotherhood. And I
          > > > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me
          > > (and
          > > > > no other). But
          > > > > people have cut off their affair (of unity),
          > > between
          > > > > them, into
          > > > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
          > > > > itself. But leave
          > > > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
          > > > > Do they think that because We have granted them
          > > > > abundance of wealth
          > > > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
          > > > > Nay, they do not
          > > > > understand].
          > > > >
          > > > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus
          > > &
          > > > > the priests are
          > > > > claiming that Jesus is God.
          > > > >
          > > > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
          > > > >
          > > > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
          > > > > Truth.
          > > > >
          > > > > Here is my favourite and the most
          > > > > interesting/scientific site:
          > > > >
          > > > > www.it-is-truth.org
          > > > > www.it-is-truth.net
          > > > >
          > > > > Honey.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ---------------------------------
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          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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          > > >
          > > >
          > > > =====
          > > > --Monte Morris
          > > > Philosopher wannabe
          > > > Japan
          > > > "Needs to find a good quote"
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > __________________________________
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          >
          >
          >
          > --Monte Morris
          > Philosopher wannabe
          > Japan
          > "Needs to find a good quote"
          >
          >
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          --Monte Morris
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          Japan
          "Needs to find a good quote"


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