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Re: [The Existential Society] the ultimate truth

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  • Will Quinn
    Dear Sir, Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the Christian faith and of the various sects of Christianity. As to your first argument, the claim
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 4, 2004
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      Dear Sir,
      Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the Christian faith and of the various sects of Christianity.
      As to your first argument, the claim Christians are polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, but I do know this: God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches which are all inter-connected. Each part together is God. Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain, the lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of these things. There is God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology holds that these are unique manifestations of God, as well as being fully God. Each has existed eternally, and all have been one and seperate.
      To your second set of points regarding Christ. To call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit have their own unique roles to play. Those that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are incorrect in my view as well. I do not need anyone to act as an intercessor on my part. The seperation between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none of these saints have divine power over anything in our lives anymore.
      As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World are not
      Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief are arrogant and ignorant. Christ was all-inclusive, and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and party. Those things are truly meaningless, and Christ broke people out of their labels and sub-groups into simply the children of God. The Bible says that all that is needed to be saved is to believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, I cannot say.
      These errors are gross and misleading about the Christian faith, and you don't do you your own faith justice by trying to convince others by these false points. You are better than that.
      I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and to think through all aspects of belief. Make your own choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.

      Will Quinn



      honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
      Dear All
      In all the religions of God from Adam down to Prophet Mohammed Peace
      be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very clear, i.e. God is
      ONE, indivisible # 1.

      Yet most Christians interpret it totally the opposite way;

      That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel) Peace be upon them all
      are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there are 3 Gods. i.e. God
      is one of three in a Trinity.

      Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping God Almighty the
      Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and instead worship Jesus
      (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of Mary.

      Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most holy and call upon
      Marry and other saints to intercede between Man and Jesus the son of
      Mary.

      Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The Injeel, and The Quran has
      to say about the 1st commandment.

      Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the
      LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
      [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none
      like thee, and there is no God besides thee, according to all that we
      have heard with our ears].

      The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and doest wondrous things,
      thou alone art God].

      The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And� "Which commandment is the first of
      all?"
      Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God,
      the Lord is one].

      The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas 112:1-4 Say: He is God,
      the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor
      is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him].

      The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World are not
      Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons say they have a
      living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them until the day of
      Judgement.
      The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors and Jesus is a god
      or an Angel,
      And Each Group is happy with what he has and the only way to heaven
      is through his sect.

      All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do not know if Jehovah's
      witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced him to a god or mere
      Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is better than Angel,
      because Angels do not have free will).

      Let us read what the Quran has to say about this.

      [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear
      Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join
      gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere)
      sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!].

      [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son of Mary and his
      mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording
      rest and security and furnished with springs. O ye messengers! enjoy
      (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-
      acquainted with (all) that ye do.
      And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood. And I
      am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other). But
      people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into
      sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself. But leave
      them in their confused ignorance for a time.
      Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth
      and sons, We would hasten them on in every good? Nay, they do not
      understand].

      In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus & the priests are
      claiming that Jesus is God.

      I live you to carfully ponder with the above.

      I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the Truth.

      Here is my favourite and the most interesting/scientific site:

      www.it-is-truth.org
      www.it-is-truth.net

      Honey.




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    • Monte Morris
      Hello all, Whereas I don t really want to get into a huge controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning rod for criticism from a number of different
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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        Hello all,
        Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
        controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning rod
        for criticism from a number of different religions,
        particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence," if
        you prefer to label it that way.
        The problem with the Trinity is that there are a large
        number of Christians who behave in such a manner as
        that it appears that they are interacting with three
        different entities. The criticism is that if each of
        these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
        times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
        one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
        worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong. It is
        an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the tree
        is judged by its fruit."

        What that means is, I can judge what is truly the case
        by viewing your actions. Take the case of the moralist
        Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a heavy
        gambler and to have had interactions with a Las Vegas
        dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
        actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
        says. His actions show that his appearance is nothing
        more than that--an appearance.
        Taking this example, one can say that Christianity is
        not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that those
        who practice it appeal to three distinct entities. The
        statement that they are all one and the same becomes
        irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then why
        separate the three and invoke them at different times?
        Similarly, there are also Christian charges against
        Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same type of
        arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
        deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God. However,
        despite this retort, that doesn't make the arguement
        go away.
        The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
        theology, the critique still stands so long as
        practitioners of Christianity behave as though they
        are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No amount of
        words, whether established Christian doctrine or not,
        is going to defend you from it. By the actions, the
        words are shown to be untrue.
        That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and the
        arguement that trys to show that Christianity is not
        monothiestic.
        Have a good day!




        --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@...> wrote:
        > Dear Sir,
        > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the
        > Christian faith and of the various sects of
        > Christianity.
        > As to your first argument, the claim Christians are
        > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
        > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly don't
        > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this: God,
        > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches which
        > are all inter-connected. Each part together is God.
        > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain, the
        > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
        > these things. There is God the Father, Christ the
        > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology holds
        > that these are unique manifestations of God, as well
        > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally, and
        > all have been one and seperate.
        > To your second set of points regarding Christ. To
        > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
        > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
        > Spirit have their own unique roles to play. Those
        > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
        > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need anyone
        > to act as an intercessor on my part. The seperation
        > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none of
        > these saints have divine power over anything in our
        > lives anymore.
        > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all the
        > Catholics of the World are not
        > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
        > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief are
        > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was all-inclusive,
        > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
        > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
        > Christ broke people out of their labels and
        > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
        > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved is to
        > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
        > doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Presbyterian,
        > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
        > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
        > Witnesses, I cannot say.
        > These errors are gross and misleading about the
        > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own faith
        > justice by trying to convince others by these false
        > points. You are better than that.
        > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and to
        > think through all aspects of belief. Make your own
        > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
        >
        > Will Quinn
        >
        >
        >
        > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
        > Dear All
        > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
        > Prophet Mohammed Peace
        > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very clear,
        > i.e. God is
        > ONE, indivisible # 1.
        >
        > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
        > opposite way;
        >
        > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel) Peace
        > be upon them all
        > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there are 3
        > Gods. i.e. God
        > is one of three in a Trinity.
        >
        > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping God
        > Almighty the
        > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
        > instead worship Jesus
        > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of Mary.
        >
        > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most holy
        > and call upon
        > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man and
        > Jesus the son of
        > Mary.
        >
        > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The Injeel,
        > and The Quran has
        > to say about the 1st commandment.
        >
        > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
        > might know that the
        > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
        > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for
        > there is none
        > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
        > according to all that we
        > have heard with our ears].
        >
        > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and doest
        > wondrous things,
        > thou alone art God].
        >
        > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And・"Which
        commandment
        > is the first of
        > all?"
        > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The
        > Lord our God,
        > the Lord is one].
        >
        > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas 112:1-4
        > Say: He is God,
        > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
        > begetteth not, nor
        > is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him].
        >
        > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World
        > are not
        > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons say
        > they have a
        > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them until
        > the day of
        > Judgement.
        > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors and
        > Jesus is a god
        > or an Angel,
        > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
        > only way to heaven
        > is through his sect.
        >
        > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do not
        > know if Jehovah's
        > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced him
        > to a god or mere
        > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
        > better than Angel,
        > because Angels do not have free will).
        >
        > Let us read what the Quran has to say about this.
        >
        > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in repentance
        > to Him, and fear
        > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among
        > those who join
        > gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion,
        > and become (mere)
        > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with
        > itself!].
        >
        > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son of
        > Mary and his
        > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high
        > ground, affording
        > rest and security and furnished with springs. O ye
        > messengers! enjoy
        > (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness:
        > for I am well-
        > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
        > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
        > Brotherhood. And I
        > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and
        > no other). But
        > people have cut off their affair (of unity), between
        > them, into
        > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
        > itself. But leave
        > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
        > Do they think that because We have granted them
        > abundance of wealth
        > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
        > Nay, they do not
        > understand].
        >
        > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus &
        > the priests are
        > claiming that Jesus is God.
        >
        > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
        >
        > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
        > Truth.
        >
        > Here is my favourite and the most
        > interesting/scientific site:
        >
        > www.it-is-truth.org
        > www.it-is-truth.net
        >
        > Honey.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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        >
        >


        =====
        --Monte Morris
        Philosopher wannabe
        Japan
        "Needs to find a good quote"


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      • honeybaby2012
        Dear Will Quinn, Thanks for your response, 1)What was the Religion of Jesus (pbuh) This verse Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 16, 2004
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          Dear Will Quinn,
          Thanks for your response,
          1)What was the Religion of Jesus (pbuh)

          This verse Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the
          Father in me' this is commonly used to support Jesus divinity.
          However we also find where Jesus (pbuh) says 'I am in my fatrher',
          so are his disiples. Read: Jhn 14:20 `At that day ye shall know
          that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.'.

          Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
          ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
          ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your
          God.

          The religion and message of Jesus was 'Submission to the will of God'
          as mentioned in the Quran ...Religion in the sight of Allah is
          submission to the will of God, in Arabic it is expressed as Islam.

          In Mat 7:21 `Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
          enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the WILL OF MY
          FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN'.

          Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
          prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out Devils? and in
          thy name done many wonderful works?.

          Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
          from me, ye that work iniquity.
          Continues on page 2.

          2
          Continued from page 1.
          Emphasis is placed by Jesus (pbuh) on THE WILL OF GOD, submission of
          our will to the will of God in Arabic "Islam".
          In Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge:
          and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but THE
          WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME. This was the Religion, the
          message of Jesus, Submission to the will of God ie "ISLAM".
          As God says in the quran ' we have sent to every nation a messanger
          calling them to worship one God and avoid the worship of false
          god's', So this was the essense of the message of Jesus... that only
          God alone deserves worship, Jesus did not only call people to this
          but he was demonstrating this to his followers.

          The Trinitarian view of Chirstianity came into being many many years
          after the ascension of Jesus (pbuh), Undoubtdly it was not professed
          by Jesus nor by any other Prophet (peace be upon them all). As a
          matter of fact, the true followers of Jesus (pbuh) continued to
          affirm the Oneness
          of God until about 90AD.
          Continues on page 3.

          3

          Continued from page 2.
          This belief in the unity of God was manifested in the Shepherd of
          Hermas, which was written during this period and regarded as a book
          of revelation by the earlier Christians. Aside from its precept on
          the Oneness of God, this scripture also contains other related
          commandments on sincerity, truthfullness, purity, patience,
          uprightness, piety and self-control. More specifically, the FIRST OF
          THESE COMMANDMENTS STATE : FIRST OF ALL BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE, And
          created all things and organized them out of what did not exist made
          all things to be, and He contains all things but alone is Himself
          uncontained, Trust Him therefore and fear Him and, fearing Him be
          self-controlled. Keep this command and you will cast away from
          yourself all wickedness, put on every virtue of uprightness, and you
          will live to God if you keep this commandment"(by E.J. Goodspeed, the
          appostolic fathers, 1950).

          The Apostles' Creed "I believe in God the (father) Almighty began to
          be known to the earlier Christians in 120AD. The word father was , in
          fact, added to this creed only between 180 AD and 210 AD. A number of
          the Apostolic Church leaders condemned this innovation, for they
          found it abominable to inject new ideas into the original teachins of
          Jesus ((pbuh) "(by E.J. Goodspeed, the appostolic fathers, 1950).
          Continued on page 4.


          Continued from page 3.
          In 325 AD The council of Nicea ultimatly agreed to call Jesus 'The
          Son of God' only begotten of the father, the council also decided to
          destroy all gospels writen in Hebrew, resulting in the burnning of
          nearly three hundred other accounts (many of them eye witness
          accounts) the pauline church authorities went further by declaring
          possession of an un-authorized gospels a capital offense, this
          resulted in the killing of 1,000,000 of the followers of Jesus in the
          years that followed the Nicea council. The Gospel of Barnabas,
          however reportedly survived until now as the only eye-witness account
          of the life and mission of Jesus (pbuh). It was accepted as a
          canonical Scripture by the Christians of Alexandria till 325 A.D.This
          Gospel foretold the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). How this
          Gospel survived can be seen in www.barnabas.net.

          The Quran Says :
          "5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary."
          But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and
          your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid
          him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the
          wrongdoers be no one to help".

          5.73. "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity:
          for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their
          word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the
          blasphemers among them".
          Continues on page 5.
          5)What was the Religion of Jesus (pbuh)

          Continued from page 4.
          The quran says :
          "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say
          of Allah aught but the truth. The Mesiah Jesus the Son of Mary was
          (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed
          on Mary, and a **Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and
          His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you:
          for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above
          having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.
          And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs".

          **Many Christians think that only the spirit of Jesus (pbuh)
          proceeded from God, and therefore he is more than a Man. The Quran
          mentions that all the spirits of men proceded from God, I will quote
          only one verse from the Quran.

          Translation: Pickthall
          [as-Sajdah 32:7] Who made all things good which He created, and He
          began the creation of man from clay [32:8] Then He made his seed from
          a draught of despised fluid;[32:9] Then He fashioned him and breathed
          into him of His Spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and
          hearts. Small thanks give ye!. Check the following Quran & Bible
          Browser in English.
          http://goon.stg.brown.edu/quran_browser/pqform.shtml.
          Continues on page 6.





          6)What was the Religion of Jesus (pbuh)

          Continued from page 5.


          Quran 5.77. Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion
          the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor
          follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,
          who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way".

          Quran 5.75. "Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger;
          many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was
          a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how
          Allah doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they
          are deluded away from the truth!."

          It is clear from the verses in the Bible, History, and the Quran
          that the religion of Jesus peace be upon him was "Submission to the
          will of God" ie Islam in Arabic. With this I leave you, may God
          enlighten you and guide you to the truth.

          The following is also an eye opener :

          http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm

          With my best wishes.

          www.it-is-truth.org
          www.it-is-truth.net



          --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Will Quinn
          <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
          > Dear Sir,
          > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the Christian faith
          and of the various sects of Christianity.
          > As to your first argument, the claim Christians are polytheistic is
          simply untrue. The Trinity is a hard doctrine to understand, and I
          certainly don't pretend to be an expert, but I do know this: God,
          Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches which are all inter-
          connected. Each part together is God. Each is a vital organ, the
          heart, the brain, the lungs. A body cannot exist without all three
          of these things. There is God the Father, Christ the Son, and the
          Holy Spirit. Christian theology holds that these are unique
          manifestations of God, as well as being fully God. Each has existed
          eternally, and all have been one and seperate.
          > To your second set of points regarding Christ. To call only upon
          Christ is ignorant, as he is one aspect of God, and God the Father
          and the Holy Spirit have their own unique roles to play. Those that
          pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are incorrect in my view as
          well. I do not need anyone to act as an intercessor on my part. The
          seperation between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none of these
          saints have divine power over anything in our lives anymore.
          > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all the Catholics of
          the World are not
          > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply incorrect, and those
          that do hold such a belief are arrogant and ignorant. Christ was all-
          inclusive, and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and party.
          Those things are truly meaningless, and Christ broke people out of
          their labels and sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
          Bible says that all that is needed to be saved is to believe, love
          and accept Jesus as the Savior; it doesn't matter if you are
          Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, or any other denomination. As to
          the claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, I cannot
          say.
          > These errors are gross and misleading about the Christian faith,
          and you don't do you your own faith justice by trying to convince
          others by these false points. You are better than that.
          > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and to think through
          all aspects of belief. Make your own choice; it is your priveledge
          and your burden.
          >
          > Will Quinn
          >
          >
          >
          > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
          > Dear All
          > In all the religions of God from Adam down to Prophet Mohammed
          Peace
          > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very clear, i.e. God is
          > ONE, indivisible # 1.
          >
          > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the opposite way;
          >
          > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel) Peace be upon them
          all
          > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there are 3 Gods. i.e. God
          > is one of three in a Trinity.
          >
          > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping God Almighty the
          > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and instead worship Jesus
          > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of Mary.
          >
          > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most holy and call upon
          > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man and Jesus the son
          of
          > Mary.
          >
          > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The Injeel, and The Quran
          has
          > to say about the 1st commandment.
          >
          > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the
          > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
          > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none
          > like thee, and there is no God besides thee, according to all that
          we
          > have heard with our ears].
          >
          > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and doest wondrous
          things,
          > thou alone art God].
          >
          > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And… "Which commandment is the first of
          > all?"
          > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God,
          > the Lord is one].
          >
          > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas 112:1-4 Say: He is God,
          > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor
          > is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him].
          >
          > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World are not
          > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons say they have a
          > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them until the day of
          > Judgement.
          > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors and Jesus is a god
          > or an Angel,
          > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the only way to heaven
          > is through his sect.
          >
          > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do not know if
          Jehovah's
          > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced him to a god or
          mere
          > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is better than Angel,
          > because Angels do not have free will).
          >
          > Let us read what the Quran has to say about this.
          >
          > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and
          fear
          > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join
          > gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion, and become
          (mere)
          > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!].
          >
          > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son of Mary and his
          > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground,
          affording
          > rest and security and furnished with springs. O ye messengers!
          enjoy
          > (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-
          > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
          > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood. And I
          > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other). But
          > people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into
          > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself. But leave
          > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
          > Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth
          > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good? Nay, they do not
          > understand].
          >
          > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus & the priests are
          > claiming that Jesus is God.
          >
          > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
          >
          > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the Truth.
          >
          > Here is my favourite and the most interesting/scientific site:
          >
          > www.it-is-truth.org
          > www.it-is-truth.net
          >
          > Honey.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • honeybaby2012
          Dear Monte Morris, Thanks for your input. Let us take the 1st two commandments. 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me; 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 17, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Monte Morris,
            Thanks for your input.
            Let us take the 1st two commandments.

            1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;

            2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;

            3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;

            The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I copied them from a
            a bible site.

            To me most Christians have broken the 2 most important commandments :

            1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was shattered with the
            father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit (Gabriel) is God.

            2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image; was shattered with
            the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of Mary….

            Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine originated:
            http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm

            With my best wishes to all,
            Honey.

            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
            <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
            > Hello all,
            > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
            > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning rod
            > for criticism from a number of different religions,
            > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence," if
            > you prefer to label it that way.
            > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a large
            > number of Christians who behave in such a manner as
            > that it appears that they are interacting with three
            > different entities. The criticism is that if each of
            > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
            > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
            > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
            > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong. It is
            > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the tree
            > is judged by its fruit."
            >
            > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the case
            > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the moralist
            > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a heavy
            > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las Vegas
            > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
            > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
            > says. His actions show that his appearance is nothing
            > more than that--an appearance.
            > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity is
            > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that those
            > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities. The
            > statement that they are all one and the same becomes
            > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then why
            > separate the three and invoke them at different times?
            > Similarly, there are also Christian charges against
            > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same type of
            > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
            > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God. However,
            > despite this retort, that doesn't make the arguement
            > go away.
            > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
            > theology, the critique still stands so long as
            > practitioners of Christianity behave as though they
            > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No amount of
            > words, whether established Christian doctrine or not,
            > is going to defend you from it. By the actions, the
            > words are shown to be untrue.
            > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and the
            > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is not
            > monothiestic.
            > Have a good day!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
            > > Dear Sir,
            > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the
            > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
            > > Christianity.
            > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians are
            > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
            > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly don't
            > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this: God,
            > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches which
            > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is God.
            > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain, the
            > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
            > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ the
            > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology holds
            > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as well
            > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally, and
            > > all have been one and seperate.
            > > To your second set of points regarding Christ. To
            > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
            > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
            > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play. Those
            > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
            > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need anyone
            > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The seperation
            > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none of
            > > these saints have divine power over anything in our
            > > lives anymore.
            > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all the
            > > Catholics of the World are not
            > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
            > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief are
            > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was all-inclusive,
            > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
            > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
            > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
            > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
            > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved is to
            > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
            > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Presbyterian,
            > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
            > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
            > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
            > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
            > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own faith
            > > justice by trying to convince others by these false
            > > points. You are better than that.
            > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and to
            > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your own
            > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
            > >
            > > Will Quinn
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
            > > Dear All
            > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
            > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
            > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very clear,
            > > i.e. God is
            > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
            > >
            > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
            > > opposite way;
            > >
            > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel) Peace
            > > be upon them all
            > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there are 3
            > > Gods. i.e. God
            > > is one of three in a Trinity.
            > >
            > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping God
            > > Almighty the
            > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
            > > instead worship Jesus
            > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of Mary.
            > >
            > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most holy
            > > and call upon
            > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man and
            > > Jesus the son of
            > > Mary.
            > >
            > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The Injeel,
            > > and The Quran has
            > > to say about the 1st commandment.
            > >
            > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
            > > might know that the
            > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
            > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for
            > > there is none
            > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
            > > according to all that we
            > > have heard with our ears].
            > >
            > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and doest
            > > wondrous things,
            > > thou alone art God].
            > >
            > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And・"Which
            > commandment
            > > is the first of
            > > all?"
            > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The
            > > Lord our God,
            > > the Lord is one].
            > >
            > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas 112:1-4
            > > Say: He is God,
            > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
            > > begetteth not, nor
            > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him].
            > >
            > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World
            > > are not
            > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons say
            > > they have a
            > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them until
            > > the day of
            > > Judgement.
            > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors and
            > > Jesus is a god
            > > or an Angel,
            > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
            > > only way to heaven
            > > is through his sect.
            > >
            > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do not
            > > know if Jehovah's
            > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced him
            > > to a god or mere
            > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
            > > better than Angel,
            > > because Angels do not have free will).
            > >
            > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about this.
            > >
            > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in repentance
            > > to Him, and fear
            > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among
            > > those who join
            > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion,
            > > and become (mere)
            > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with
            > > itself!].
            > >
            > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son of
            > > Mary and his
            > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high
            > > ground, affording
            > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O ye
            > > messengers! enjoy
            > > (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness:
            > > for I am well-
            > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
            > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
            > > Brotherhood. And I
            > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and
            > > no other). But
            > > people have cut off their affair (of unity), between
            > > them, into
            > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
            > > itself. But leave
            > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
            > > Do they think that because We have granted them
            > > abundance of wealth
            > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
            > > Nay, they do not
            > > understand].
            > >
            > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus &
            > > the priests are
            > > claiming that Jesus is God.
            > >
            > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
            > >
            > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
            > > Truth.
            > >
            > > Here is my favourite and the most
            > > interesting/scientific site:
            > >
            > > www.it-is-truth.org
            > > www.it-is-truth.net
            > >
            > > Honey.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
            > > Try it!
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > > removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > =====
            > --Monte Morris
            > Philosopher wannabe
            > Japan
            > "Needs to find a good quote"
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
            > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
          • Will Quinn
            Dear Honey, Our previous diagreements stand here as well. You have stated these points earlier, and have not really added anything to your argument. The
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 17, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Honey,
              Our previous diagreements stand here as well. You have stated these points earlier, and have not really added anything to your argument. The concept of the Trinity in the eyes of Christians has been explained already. Furthermore, you damage your argument here by faulty information. No where in the New Testament is Gabriel mentioned as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is nothing other than God, and part of the Trinity.
              As to your writing of graven images, yes, many Christians are hypocrites in this matter, but many are not. Do not judge all of Christianity or any religion by the actions of a few. Many Christians object to the images of Mary and Christ, precisely for the reason you write of.
              Like I said earlier, Christians often betray what Christ taught, but just because we fail to live up to the standards of Christ doesn't mean that he is wrong, it merely means that his followers are imperfect.

              Cordially,
              Will Quinn
              honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:
              Dear Monte Morris,
              Thanks for your input.
              Let us take the 1st two commandments.

              1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;

              2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;

              3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;

              The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I copied them from a
              a bible site.

              To me most Christians have broken the 2 most important commandments :

              1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was shattered with the
              father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit (Gabriel) is God.

              2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image; was shattered with
              the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of Mary�.

              Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine originated:
              http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm

              With my best wishes to all,
              Honey.

              --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
              <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
              > Hello all,
              > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
              > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning rod
              > for criticism from a number of different religions,
              > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence," if
              > you prefer to label it that way.
              > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a large
              > number of Christians who behave in such a manner as
              > that it appears that they are interacting with three
              > different entities. The criticism is that if each of
              > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
              > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
              > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
              > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong. It is
              > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the tree
              > is judged by its fruit."
              >
              > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the case
              > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the moralist
              > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a heavy
              > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las Vegas
              > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
              > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
              > says. His actions show that his appearance is nothing
              > more than that--an appearance.
              > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity is
              > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that those
              > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities. The
              > statement that they are all one and the same becomes
              > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then why
              > separate the three and invoke them at different times?
              > Similarly, there are also Christian charges against
              > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same type of
              > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
              > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God. However,
              > despite this retort, that doesn't make the arguement
              > go away.
              > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
              > theology, the critique still stands so long as
              > practitioners of Christianity behave as though they
              > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No amount of
              > words, whether established Christian doctrine or not,
              > is going to defend you from it. By the actions, the
              > words are shown to be untrue.
              > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and the
              > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is not
              > monothiestic.
              > Have a good day!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
              > > Dear Sir,
              > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the
              > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
              > > Christianity.
              > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians are
              > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
              > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly don't
              > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this: God,
              > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches which
              > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is God.
              > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain, the
              > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
              > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ the
              > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology holds
              > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as well
              > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally, and
              > > all have been one and seperate.
              > > To your second set of points regarding Christ. To
              > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
              > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
              > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play. Those
              > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
              > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need anyone
              > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The seperation
              > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none of
              > > these saints have divine power over anything in our
              > > lives anymore.
              > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all the
              > > Catholics of the World are not
              > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
              > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief are
              > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was all-inclusive,
              > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
              > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
              > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
              > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
              > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved is to
              > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
              > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Presbyterian,
              > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
              > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
              > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
              > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
              > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own faith
              > > justice by trying to convince others by these false
              > > points. You are better than that.
              > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and to
              > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your own
              > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
              > >
              > > Will Quinn
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
              > > Dear All
              > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
              > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
              > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very clear,
              > > i.e. God is
              > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
              > >
              > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
              > > opposite way;
              > >
              > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel) Peace
              > > be upon them all
              > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there are 3
              > > Gods. i.e. God
              > > is one of three in a Trinity.
              > >
              > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping God
              > > Almighty the
              > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
              > > instead worship Jesus
              > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of Mary.
              > >
              > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most holy
              > > and call upon
              > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man and
              > > Jesus the son of
              > > Mary.
              > >
              > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The Injeel,
              > > and The Quran has
              > > to say about the 1st commandment.
              > >
              > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
              > > might know that the
              > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
              > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for
              > > there is none
              > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
              > > according to all that we
              > > have heard with our ears].
              > >
              > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and doest
              > > wondrous things,
              > > thou alone art God].
              > >
              > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And・"Which
              > commandment
              > > is the first of
              > > all?"
              > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The
              > > Lord our God,
              > > the Lord is one].
              > >
              > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas 112:1-4
              > > Say: He is God,
              > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
              > > begetteth not, nor
              > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him].
              > >
              > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World
              > > are not
              > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons say
              > > they have a
              > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them until
              > > the day of
              > > Judgement.
              > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors and
              > > Jesus is a god
              > > or an Angel,
              > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
              > > only way to heaven
              > > is through his sect.
              > >
              > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do not
              > > know if Jehovah's
              > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced him
              > > to a god or mere
              > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
              > > better than Angel,
              > > because Angels do not have free will).
              > >
              > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about this.
              > >
              > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in repentance
              > > to Him, and fear
              > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among
              > > those who join
              > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion,
              > > and become (mere)
              > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with
              > > itself!].
              > >
              > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son of
              > > Mary and his
              > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high
              > > ground, affording
              > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O ye
              > > messengers! enjoy
              > > (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness:
              > > for I am well-
              > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
              > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
              > > Brotherhood. And I
              > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and
              > > no other). But
              > > people have cut off their affair (of unity), between
              > > them, into
              > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
              > > itself. But leave
              > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
              > > Do they think that because We have granted them
              > > abundance of wealth
              > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
              > > Nay, they do not
              > > understand].
              > >
              > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus &
              > > the priests are
              > > claiming that Jesus is God.
              > >
              > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
              > >
              > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
              > > Truth.
              > >
              > > Here is my favourite and the most
              > > interesting/scientific site:
              > >
              > > www.it-is-truth.org
              > > www.it-is-truth.net
              > >
              > > Honey.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
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              > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
              > > Try it!
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > > removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > =====
              > --Monte Morris
              > Philosopher wannabe
              > Japan
              > "Needs to find a good quote"
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
              > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


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            • honeybaby2012
              Dear Will Quinn, We know who is God, whom you call the father, and we also know Jesus the Messiah. Who is the Holy spirit then … no body in Christianity can
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 18, 2004
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                Dear Will Quinn,

                We know who is God, whom you call the father, and we also know Jesus
                the Messiah.
                Who is the Holy spirit then … no body in Christianity can explain…
                we believe the holy spirit is none other than Garbriel who was the
                Angel helper & messenger between Jesus the messiah and God the
                Almighty, helping him through all the way from the beginning to the
                end.

                With my best wishes.

                Quran Maeda 5: 110: Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary!
                recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened
                thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in
                childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and
                Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay,
                as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest
                into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those
                born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest
                forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children
                of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the
                Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: `This is nothing
                but evident magic.'

                Quran, [The family of Imran chapter 2: verse 41- 46]

                Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and
                purified thee, chosen thee above the women of all nations. "O Mary!
                worship thy Lord devoutly: prostrate thyself, and bow down (in
                prayer) with those who bow down." "This is part of the things of the
                things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Prophet!) by
                inspiration: thou wast not with them when they cast lots with
                arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary:
                nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

                Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of
                a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary,
                held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company
                of) those nearest to Allah; "He shall speak to the people in
                childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the
                righteous." She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man
                hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth:
                when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, `Be', and it
                is! "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the
                Gospel,
                With my best wishes.
                Honey.

                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Will Quinn
                <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Honey,
                > Our previous diagreements stand here as well. You have stated
                these points earlier, and have not really added anything to your
                argument. The concept of the Trinity in the eyes of Christians has
                been explained already. Furthermore, you damage your argument here
                by faulty information. No where in the New Testament is Gabriel
                mentioned as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is nothing other than
                God, and part of the Trinity.
                > As to your writing of graven images, yes, many Christians are
                hypocrites in this matter, but many are not. Do not judge all of
                Christianity or any religion by the actions of a few. Many
                Christians object to the images of Mary and Christ, precisely for
                the reason you write of.
                > Like I said earlier, Christians often betray what Christ taught,
                but just because we fail to live up to the standards of Christ
                doesn't mean that he is wrong, it merely means that his followers
                are imperfect.
                >
                > Cordially,
                > Will Quinn
                > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Monte Morris,
                > Thanks for your input.
                > Let us take the 1st two commandments.
                >
                > 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
                >
                > 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                >
                > 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;
                >
                > The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I copied them from
                a
                > a bible site.
                >
                > To me most Christians have broken the 2 most important
                commandments :
                >
                > 1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was shattered with the
                > father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit (Gabriel) is
                God.
                >
                > 2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image; was shattered
                with
                > the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of Mary….
                >
                > Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine originated:
                > http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
                >
                > With my best wishes to all,
                > Honey.
                >
                > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                > > Hello all,
                > > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
                > > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning rod
                > > for criticism from a number of different religions,
                > > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence," if
                > > you prefer to label it that way.
                > > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a large
                > > number of Christians who behave in such a manner as
                > > that it appears that they are interacting with three
                > > different entities. The criticism is that if each of
                > > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
                > > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
                > > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
                > > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong. It is
                > > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the tree
                > > is judged by its fruit."
                > >
                > > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the case
                > > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the moralist
                > > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a heavy
                > > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las Vegas
                > > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
                > > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
                > > says. His actions show that his appearance is nothing
                > > more than that--an appearance.
                > > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity is
                > > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that those
                > > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities. The
                > > statement that they are all one and the same becomes
                > > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then why
                > > separate the three and invoke them at different times?
                > > Similarly, there are also Christian charges against
                > > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same type of
                > > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
                > > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God. However,
                > > despite this retort, that doesn't make the arguement
                > > go away.
                > > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
                > > theology, the critique still stands so long as
                > > practitioners of Christianity behave as though they
                > > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No amount of
                > > words, whether established Christian doctrine or not,
                > > is going to defend you from it. By the actions, the
                > > words are shown to be untrue.
                > > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and the
                > > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is not
                > > monothiestic.
                > > Have a good day!
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
                > > > Dear Sir,
                > > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of the
                > > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
                > > > Christianity.
                > > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians are
                > > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
                > > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly don't
                > > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this: God,
                > > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches which
                > > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is God.
                > > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain, the
                > > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
                > > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ the
                > > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology holds
                > > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as well
                > > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally, and
                > > > all have been one and seperate.
                > > > To your second set of points regarding Christ. To
                > > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
                > > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
                > > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play. Those
                > > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
                > > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need anyone
                > > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The seperation
                > > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none of
                > > > these saints have divine power over anything in our
                > > > lives anymore.
                > > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all the
                > > > Catholics of the World are not
                > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
                > > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief are
                > > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was all-inclusive,
                > > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
                > > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
                > > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
                > > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
                > > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved is to
                > > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
                > > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Presbyterian,
                > > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
                > > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
                > > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
                > > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
                > > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own faith
                > > > justice by trying to convince others by these false
                > > > points. You are better than that.
                > > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and to
                > > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your own
                > > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
                > > >
                > > > Will Quinn
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                > > > Dear All
                > > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
                > > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
                > > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very clear,
                > > > i.e. God is
                > > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
                > > >
                > > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
                > > > opposite way;
                > > >
                > > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel) Peace
                > > > be upon them all
                > > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there are 3
                > > > Gods. i.e. God
                > > > is one of three in a Trinity.
                > > >
                > > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping God
                > > > Almighty the
                > > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
                > > > instead worship Jesus
                > > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of Mary.
                > > >
                > > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most holy
                > > > and call upon
                > > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man and
                > > > Jesus the son of
                > > > Mary.
                > > >
                > > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The Injeel,
                > > > and The Quran has
                > > > to say about the 1st commandment.
                > > >
                > > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
                > > > might know that the
                > > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
                > > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for
                > > > there is none
                > > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
                > > > according to all that we
                > > > have heard with our ears].
                > > >
                > > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and doest
                > > > wondrous things,
                > > > thou alone art God].
                > > >
                > > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And・"Which
                > > commandment
                > > > is the first of
                > > > all?"
                > > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The
                > > > Lord our God,
                > > > the Lord is one].
                > > >
                > > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas 112:1-4
                > > > Say: He is God,
                > > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
                > > > begetteth not, nor
                > > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him].
                > > >
                > > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the World
                > > > are not
                > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons say
                > > > they have a
                > > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them until
                > > > the day of
                > > > Judgement.
                > > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors and
                > > > Jesus is a god
                > > > or an Angel,
                > > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
                > > > only way to heaven
                > > > is through his sect.
                > > >
                > > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do not
                > > > know if Jehovah's
                > > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced him
                > > > to a god or mere
                > > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
                > > > better than Angel,
                > > > because Angels do not have free will).
                > > >
                > > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about this.
                > > >
                > > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in repentance
                > > > to Him, and fear
                > > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among
                > > > those who join
                > > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion,
                > > > and become (mere)
                > > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with
                > > > itself!].
                > > >
                > > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son of
                > > > Mary and his
                > > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high
                > > > ground, affording
                > > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O ye
                > > > messengers! enjoy
                > > > (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness:
                > > > for I am well-
                > > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
                > > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
                > > > Brotherhood. And I
                > > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and
                > > > no other). But
                > > > people have cut off their affair (of unity), between
                > > > them, into
                > > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
                > > > itself. But leave
                > > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
                > > > Do they think that because We have granted them
                > > > abundance of wealth
                > > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
                > > > Nay, they do not
                > > > understand].
                > > >
                > > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus &
                > > > the priests are
                > > > claiming that Jesus is God.
                > > >
                > > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
                > > >
                > > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
                > > > Truth.
                > > >
                > > > Here is my favourite and the most
                > > > interesting/scientific site:
                > > >
                > > > www.it-is-truth.org
                > > > www.it-is-truth.net
                > > >
                > > > Honey.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                > > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
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                > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
                > > > Try it!
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > > removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > >
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > =====
                > > --Monte Morris
                > > Philosopher wannabe
                > > Japan
                > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                > >
                > >
                > > __________________________________
                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
                > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
                >
                >
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              • Monte Morris
                Honey, As I stated earlier, I don t want to get involved in a huge controversy on this subject. However, I do have some comments for you. ... --And which site
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 18, 2004
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                  Honey,
                  As I stated earlier, I don't want to get involved in a huge controversy on this subject. However, I do have some comments for you.

                  > Let us take the 1st two commandments.
                  >
                  > 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
                  >
                  > 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                  >
                  > 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
                  > in vain;
                  >
                  > The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I
                  > copied them from a
                  > a bible site.
                  --And which site might that be? Not that it's a big deal. I can go to Google.com and type in "10 Commandments," Or I can also go here to http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm
                  This is a site that takes the time to detail the 10 Commandments, give citations of where they are in the Bible, as well as states them as they appear in one of the translations. Would you like to see how the Bible, in the NRSV (New Standard Revised Translation) puts it?
                  From Exodus 20:4 (though the Commandments are not necessarily presented in the order, as presented in Exodus)
                  1. (Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God.
                  2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

                  This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
                  As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite different than what you posted.
                  >
                  > To me most Christians have broken the 2 most
                  > important commandments :
                  >
                  > 1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was
                  > shattered with the
                  > father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit
                  > (Gabriel) is God.

                  --I'll take issue with this in that the concept of the Trinity states that God is one God. While the critique I offered of the Trinity shows how a Christian could be in violation of this Commandment. If a Christian worships in good faith, and believes that thier invocations are directed to the same Being, are they in violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus 20:5, which states that "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3 parts, each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.

                  2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                  > was shattered with
                  > the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of
                  > Mary#12539;

                  --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to. Nothing says that one may not make an image. If that were so, we would not have any art or pictures, or anything else of this sort. God did not forbid the use of images, only the way in which they are used.
                  The charge is something that goes back to the Gentiles, who were pagan and worshipped images, or false gods. As can be cited numerous times in the Old Testament, God would show his face only to the most righteous. The implication being that not all were worthy of seeing God's face, and therefore, no image was needed to worship God, as God was not like the false gods of the Gentiles.
                  I would further argue that the image of Jesus on the Cross, or the pictures and statues of of Mary are not worshiped. They serve as symbols and reminders of one's faith, but not as objects of worship. Therefore, they are not, a priori, a violation of this Commandment. Again, it goes back to the way that things are USED. This line of reasoning is also invoked by Muslims who consider shreds of Mohammed's hair to be sacred. There are plenty of other examples of actions, taken by some Muslims, that might be considered worshipful of Mohammed, to the expense of Allah. Why should not these objects fall under the same category, by your reasoning? Is it because they are not "an image?" If that is the case, then couldn't such behavior be an infraction of the First Commandment, "you shall have no god before me"? What it comes back down to is one's behavior. One of the central principles of Islam is to bend one's will to Allah's. In that case, following Allah's will is more important than
                  following established doctrine or dogma, if one can reasonable be sure that it is wrong. That is why there is no one Christian doctrine. That is why there is no one established Islamic doctrine, though one will always find people in both Christian and Islamic schools of thought who think they have the monopoly on truth.

                  Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine
                  > originated:
                  > http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
                  >
                  --I visited this site, and I have to say that it is very poor. It fails to discuss at length any of the important facts, lacks citations, and analysis. Take a look at these sites if you want something of any substance. http://home.rmci.net/cbolton/TRIN.HTM (a very good article on the history of the Trinity conflict that culminated in the Council of Nicea.) What you will also find here, Honey, is that the Trinity is still a subject of debate in today's Christian churches, where not all believe in it, and many others reject outright. To say that all Christians are in violation of the first two Commandments shows a lack of understanding of Christianity.
                  --In case anyone wants more information on the Trinity debate, check this site: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/trinity2.htm
                  --To add more fuel to the fire, St. Augustine of Hippo, considered to be the 2nd most influential person to the development of Christian thought, after Paul, wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire book can be read on-line at : http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
                  For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he wrote a book of this magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.

                  --Monte



                  > With my best wishes to all,
                  > Honey.
                  >
                  > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
                  > Morris
                  > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                  > > Hello all,
                  > > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
                  > > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning
                  > rod
                  > > for criticism from a number of different
                  > religions,
                  > > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence,"
                  > if
                  > > you prefer to label it that way.
                  > > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a
                  > large
                  > > number of Christians who behave in such a manner
                  > as
                  > > that it appears that they are interacting with
                  > three
                  > > different entities. The criticism is that if each
                  > of
                  > > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
                  > > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
                  > > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
                  > > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong.
                  > It is
                  > > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the
                  > tree
                  > > is judged by its fruit."
                  > >
                  > > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the
                  > case
                  > > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the
                  > moralist
                  > > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a
                  > heavy
                  > > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las
                  > Vegas
                  > > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
                  > > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
                  > > says. His actions show that his appearance is
                  > nothing
                  > > more than that--an appearance.
                  > > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity
                  > is
                  > > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that
                  > those
                  > > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities.
                  > The
                  > > statement that they are all one and the same
                  > becomes
                  > > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then
                  > why
                  > > separate the three and invoke them at different
                  > times?
                  > > Similarly, there are also Christian charges
                  > against
                  > > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same
                  > type of
                  > > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
                  > > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God.
                  > However,
                  > > despite this retort, that doesn't make the
                  > arguement
                  > > go away.
                  > > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
                  > > theology, the critique still stands so long as
                  > > practitioners of Christianity behave as though
                  > they
                  > > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No
                  > amount of
                  > > words, whether established Christian doctrine or
                  > not,
                  > > is going to defend you from it. By the actions,
                  > the
                  > > words are shown to be untrue.
                  > > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and
                  > the
                  > > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is
                  > not
                  > > monothiestic.
                  > > Have a good day!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Dear Sir,
                  > > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of
                  > the
                  > > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
                  > > > Christianity.
                  > > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians
                  > are
                  > > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
                  > > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly
                  > don't
                  > > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this:
                  > God,
                  > > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches
                  > which
                  > > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is
                  > God.
                  > > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain,
                  > the
                  > > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
                  > > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ
                  > the
                  > > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology
                  > holds
                  > > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as
                  > well
                  > > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally,
                  > and
                  > > > all have been one and seperate.
                  > > > To your second set of points regarding Christ.
                  > To
                  > > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
                  > > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
                  > > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play.
                  > Those
                  > > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
                  > > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need
                  > anyone
                  > > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The
                  > seperation
                  > > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none
                  > of
                  > > > these saints have divine power over anything in
                  > our
                  > > > lives anymore.
                  > > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all
                  > the
                  > > > Catholics of the World are not
                  > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
                  > > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief
                  > are
                  > > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was
                  > all-inclusive,
                  > > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
                  > > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
                  > > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
                  > > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
                  > > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved
                  > is to
                  > > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
                  > > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic,
                  > Presbyterian,
                  > > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
                  > > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
                  > > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
                  > > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
                  > > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own
                  > faith
                  > > > justice by trying to convince others by these
                  > false
                  > > > points. You are better than that.
                  > > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and
                  > to
                  > > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your
                  > own
                  > > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
                  > > >
                  > > > Will Quinn
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Dear All
                  > > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
                  > > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
                  > > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very
                  > clear,
                  > > > i.e. God is
                  > > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
                  > > > opposite way;
                  > > >
                  > > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel)
                  > Peace
                  > > > be upon them all
                  > > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there
                  > are 3
                  > > > Gods. i.e. God
                  > > > is one of three in a Trinity.
                  > > >
                  > > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping
                  > God
                  > > > Almighty the
                  > > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
                  > > > instead worship Jesus
                  > > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of
                  > Mary.
                  > > >
                  > > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most
                  > holy
                  > > > and call upon
                  > > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man
                  > and
                  > > > Jesus the son of
                  > > > Mary.
                  > > >
                  > > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The
                  > Injeel,
                  > > > and The Quran has
                  > > > to say about the 1st commandment.
                  > > >
                  > > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
                  > > > might know that the
                  > > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
                  > > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God;
                  > for
                  > > > there is none
                  > > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
                  > > > according to all that we
                  > > > have heard with our ears].
                  > > >
                  > > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and
                  > doest
                  > > > wondrous things,
                  > > > thou alone art God].
                  > > >
                  > > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And#12539;"Which
                  > > commandment
                  > > > is the first of
                  > > > all?"
                  > > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel:
                  > The
                  > > > Lord our God,
                  > > > the Lord is one].
                  > > >
                  > > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas
                  > 112:1-4
                  > > > Say: He is God,
                  > > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
                  > > > begetteth not, nor
                  > > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto
                  > Him].
                  > > >
                  > > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the
                  > World
                  > > > are not
                  > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons
                  > say
                  > > > they have a
                  > > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them
                  > until
                  > > > the day of
                  > > > Judgement.
                  > > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors
                  > and
                  > > > Jesus is a god
                  > > > or an Angel,
                  > > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
                  > > > only way to heaven
                  > > > is through his sect.
                  > > >
                  > > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do
                  > not
                  > > > know if Jehovah's
                  > > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced
                  > him
                  > > > to a god or mere
                  > > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
                  > > > better than Angel,
                  > > > because Angels do not have free will).
                  > > >
                  > > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about
                  > this.
                  > > >
                  > > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in
                  > repentance
                  > > > to Him, and fear
                  > > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye
                  > among
                  > > > those who join
                  > > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their
                  > Religion,
                  > > > and become (mere)
                  > > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is
                  > with
                  > > > itself!].
                  > > >
                  > > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son
                  > of
                  > > > Mary and his
                  > > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on
                  > high
                  > > > ground, affording
                  > > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O
                  > ye
                  > > > messengers! enjoy
                  > > > (all) things good and pure, and work
                  > righteousness:
                  > > > for I am well-
                  > > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
                  > > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
                  > > > Brotherhood. And I
                  > > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me
                  > (and
                  > > > no other). But
                  > > > people have cut off their affair (of unity),
                  > between
                  > > > them, into
                  > > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
                  > > > itself. But leave
                  > > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
                  > > > Do they think that because We have granted them
                  > > > abundance of wealth
                  > > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
                  > > > Nay, they do not
                  > > > understand].
                  > > >
                  > > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus
                  > &
                  > > > the priests are
                  > > > claiming that Jesus is God.
                  > > >
                  > > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
                  > > >
                  > > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
                  > > > Truth.
                  > > >
                  > > > Here is my favourite and the most
                  > > > interesting/scientific site:
                  > > >
                  > > > www.it-is-truth.org
                  > > > www.it-is-truth.net
                  > > >
                  > > > Honey.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                  > to:
                  > > >
                  > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building
                  > tool.
                  > > > Try it!
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > > > removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                  > to:
                  > > >
                  > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > =====
                  > > --Monte Morris
                  > > Philosopher wannabe
                  > > Japan
                  > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________
                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
                  > online.
                  > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
                  >
                  >



                  --Monte Morris
                  Philosopher wannabe
                  Japan
                  "Needs to find a good quote"


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                • honeybaby2012
                  Dear Monte, Monte s Question: ……2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 20, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Monte,


                    Monte's Question:
                    ……2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
                    in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
                    earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

                    This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
                    been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
                    viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
                    evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
                    As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
                    different than what you posted.

                    In the name of Allah Most Gracious most Merciful.
                    Answer from Honey:
                    Dear Monte,
                    The 10 commandments are v. well known, I searched for the 10
                    commandments, in google and I got the following :

                    "And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…
                    ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

                    TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of
                    anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
                    that is in the water under the earth.'

                    THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
                    Here is the site :
                    http://www.10-commandments.org



                    …Monte's Question:
                    ………and believes that thier invocations are directed to the same
                    Being, are they in violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus
                    20:5, which states that
                    "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
                    reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
                    images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
                    about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
                    makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
                    is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3
                    parts, each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.


                    Answer from Honey.
                    To me worshipping is none other than praying to the worshipped being
                    asking him to do things such as :
                    to lift a burden, to heal the sick or to save from the punishment of
                    the hell fire etc…, I call this worship, and we all know that most
                    Christians worship Jesus peace be upon him or Mary may Allah be
                    please with her.


                    Monte's Question:
                    2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                    > was shattered with> the image of Jesus on the cross and the image
                    of> Mary#12539;

                    --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
                    looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
                    Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
                    Nothing says that one may not make an

                    Answer from Honey:
                    If what I understood from the above is correct; then let me rephrase
                    what you are saying: we are not worshiping the graven images of Jesus
                    or Mary, these are only symbols but we are worshipping Jesus himself
                    or Mary the person.
                    I believe this is in violation of the 1st and 2nd commandments.
                    The pagans will say exactly the same thing.

                    http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
                    …… development of Christian thought, after Paul,
                    wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire book can be read on-
                    line at :
                    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
                    For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
                    wrote a book ofthis magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
                    Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
                    before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
                    arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.

                    Answer from Honey.
                    Thanks… so to this day.. for the past 2000 years, Christians still
                    debate the issue of trinity.
                    Here is what the quran said to people about the trinity 1400 years
                    ago:

                    The quran says :
                    O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
                    Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more
                    than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary,
                    and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
                    Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for
                    Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a
                    son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
                    is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

                    Quran 5.77. Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion
                    the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor
                    follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,
                    who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

                    Here a v. interesting story I read on the internet about an innocent
                    American master degree student… who was searching for the truth, how
                    the bishop or the priest told her that the trinity cannot be
                    explained….. and when she ran away to the far east to embrace
                    Buddhism she was told to prostrate to the statue of Buddaha…. And how
                    finally God guided her to the truth and how she embraced Islam…

                    http://www.islamonline.net/english/journey/2004/02/jour01.shtml

                    You mentioned about the hair of Prophet Mohammed Peace be upon him,
                    to my knowledge the hair of Mohammed is never worshipped, but some
                    people treat it as relic.

                    With my best wishes.
                    Honey.


                    --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                    <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                    > Honey,
                    > As I stated earlier, I don't want to get involved in a huge
                    controversy on this subject. However, I do have some comments for you.
                    >
                    > > Let us take the 1st two commandments.
                    > >
                    > > 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
                    > >
                    > > 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                    > >
                    > > 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
                    > > in vain;
                    > >
                    > > The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I
                    > > copied them from a
                    > > a bible site.
                    > --And which site might that be? Not that it's a big deal. I can go
                    to Google.com and type in "10 Commandments," Or I can also go here
                    to http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm
                    > This is a site that takes the time to detail the 10 Commandments,
                    give citations of where they are in the Bible, as well as states them
                    as they appear in one of the translations. Would you like to see how
                    the Bible, in the NRSV (New Standard Revised Translation) puts it?
                    > From Exodus 20:4 (though the Commandments are not necessarily
                    presented in the order, as presented in Exodus)
                    > 1. (Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
                    for I the Lord your God am a jealous God.
                    > 2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
                    in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
                    earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
                    >
                    > This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
                    been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
                    viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
                    evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
                    > As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
                    different than what you posted.
                    > >
                    > > To me most Christians have broken the 2 most
                    > > important commandments :
                    > >
                    > > 1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was
                    > > shattered with the
                    > > father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit
                    > > (Gabriel) is God.
                    >
                    > --I'll take issue with this in that the concept of the Trinity
                    states that God is one God. While the critique I offered of the
                    Trinity shows how a Christian could be in violation of this
                    Commandment. If a Christian worships in good faith, and believes that
                    thier invocations are directed to the same Being, are they in
                    violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus 20:5, which states
                    that "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
                    reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
                    images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
                    about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
                    makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
                    is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3 parts,
                    each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.
                    >
                    > 2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                    > > was shattered with
                    > > the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of
                    > > Mary#12539;
                    >
                    > --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
                    looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
                    Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
                    Nothing says that one may not make an image. If that were so, we
                    would not have any art or pictures, or anything else of this sort.
                    God did not forbid the use of images, only the way in which they are
                    used.
                    > The charge is something that goes back to the Gentiles, who were
                    pagan and worshipped images, or false gods. As can be cited numerous
                    times in the Old Testament, God would show his face only to the most
                    righteous. The implication being that not all were worthy of seeing
                    God's face, and therefore, no image was needed to worship God, as God
                    was not like the false gods of the Gentiles.
                    > I would further argue that the image of Jesus on the Cross, or the
                    pictures and statues of of Mary are not worshiped. They serve as
                    symbols and reminders of one's faith, but not as objects of worship.
                    Therefore, they are not, a priori, a violation of this Commandment.
                    Again, it goes back to the way that things are USED. This line of
                    reasoning is also invoked by Muslims who consider shreds of
                    Mohammed's hair to be sacred. There are plenty of other examples of
                    actions, taken by some Muslims, that might be considered worshipful
                    of Mohammed, to the expense of Allah. Why should not these objects
                    fall under the same category, by your reasoning? Is it because they
                    are not "an image?" If that is the case, then couldn't such behavior
                    be an infraction of the First Commandment, "you shall have no god
                    before me"? What it comes back down to is one's behavior. One of the
                    central principles of Islam is to bend one's will to Allah's. In that
                    case, following Allah's will is more important than
                    > following established doctrine or dogma, if one can reasonable be
                    sure that it is wrong. That is why there is no one Christian
                    doctrine. That is why there is no one established Islamic doctrine,
                    though one will always find people in both Christian and Islamic
                    schools of thought who think they have the monopoly on truth.
                    >
                    > Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine
                    > > originated:
                    > > http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
                    > >
                    > --I visited this site, and I have to say that it is very poor. It
                    fails to discuss at length any of the important facts, lacks
                    citations, and analysis. Take a look at these sites if you want
                    something of any substance. http://home.rmci.net/cbolton/TRIN.HTM (a
                    very good article on the history of the Trinity conflict that
                    culminated in the Council of Nicea.) What you will also find here,
                    Honey, is that the Trinity is still a subject of debate in today's
                    Christian churches, where not all believe in it, and many others
                    reject outright. To say that all Christians are in violation of the
                    first two Commandments shows a lack of understanding of Christianity.
                    > --In case anyone wants more information on the Trinity debate,
                    check this site: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/trinity2.htm
                    > --To add more fuel to the fire, St. Augustine of Hippo, considered
                    to be the 2nd most influential person to the development of Christian
                    thought, after Paul, wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire
                    book can be read on-line at :
                    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
                    > For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
                    wrote a book of this magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
                    Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
                    before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
                    arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.
                    >
                    > --Monte
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > With my best wishes to all,
                    > > Honey.
                    > >
                    > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
                    > > Morris
                    > > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Hello all,
                    > > > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
                    > > > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning
                    > > rod
                    > > > for criticism from a number of different
                    > > religions,
                    > > > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence,"
                    > > if
                    > > > you prefer to label it that way.
                    > > > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a
                    > > large
                    > > > number of Christians who behave in such a manner
                    > > as
                    > > > that it appears that they are interacting with
                    > > three
                    > > > different entities. The criticism is that if each
                    > > of
                    > > > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
                    > > > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
                    > > > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
                    > > > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong.
                    > > It is
                    > > > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the
                    > > tree
                    > > > is judged by its fruit."
                    > > >
                    > > > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the
                    > > case
                    > > > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the
                    > > moralist
                    > > > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a
                    > > heavy
                    > > > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las
                    > > Vegas
                    > > > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
                    > > > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
                    > > > says. His actions show that his appearance is
                    > > nothing
                    > > > more than that--an appearance.
                    > > > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity
                    > > is
                    > > > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that
                    > > those
                    > > > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities.
                    > > The
                    > > > statement that they are all one and the same
                    > > becomes
                    > > > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then
                    > > why
                    > > > separate the three and invoke them at different
                    > > times?
                    > > > Similarly, there are also Christian charges
                    > > against
                    > > > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same
                    > > type of
                    > > > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
                    > > > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God.
                    > > However,
                    > > > despite this retort, that doesn't make the
                    > > arguement
                    > > > go away.
                    > > > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
                    > > > theology, the critique still stands so long as
                    > > > practitioners of Christianity behave as though
                    > > they
                    > > > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No
                    > > amount of
                    > > > words, whether established Christian doctrine or
                    > > not,
                    > > > is going to defend you from it. By the actions,
                    > > the
                    > > > words are shown to be untrue.
                    > > > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and
                    > > the
                    > > > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is
                    > > not
                    > > > monothiestic.
                    > > > Have a good day!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > Dear Sir,
                    > > > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of
                    > > the
                    > > > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
                    > > > > Christianity.
                    > > > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians
                    > > are
                    > > > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
                    > > > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly
                    > > don't
                    > > > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this:
                    > > God,
                    > > > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches
                    > > which
                    > > > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is
                    > > God.
                    > > > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain,
                    > > the
                    > > > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
                    > > > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ
                    > > the
                    > > > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology
                    > > holds
                    > > > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as
                    > > well
                    > > > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally,
                    > > and
                    > > > > all have been one and seperate.
                    > > > > To your second set of points regarding Christ.
                    > > To
                    > > > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
                    > > > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
                    > > > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play.
                    > > Those
                    > > > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
                    > > > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need
                    > > anyone
                    > > > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The
                    > > seperation
                    > > > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none
                    > > of
                    > > > > these saints have divine power over anything in
                    > > our
                    > > > > lives anymore.
                    > > > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all
                    > > the
                    > > > > Catholics of the World are not
                    > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
                    > > > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief
                    > > are
                    > > > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was
                    > > all-inclusive,
                    > > > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
                    > > > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
                    > > > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
                    > > > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
                    > > > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved
                    > > is to
                    > > > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
                    > > > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic,
                    > > Presbyterian,
                    > > > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
                    > > > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
                    > > > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
                    > > > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
                    > > > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own
                    > > faith
                    > > > > justice by trying to convince others by these
                    > > false
                    > > > > points. You are better than that.
                    > > > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and
                    > > to
                    > > > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your
                    > > own
                    > > > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Will Quinn
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > Dear All
                    > > > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
                    > > > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
                    > > > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very
                    > > clear,
                    > > > > i.e. God is
                    > > > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
                    > > > > opposite way;
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel)
                    > > Peace
                    > > > > be upon them all
                    > > > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there
                    > > are 3
                    > > > > Gods. i.e. God
                    > > > > is one of three in a Trinity.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping
                    > > God
                    > > > > Almighty the
                    > > > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
                    > > > > instead worship Jesus
                    > > > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of
                    > > Mary.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most
                    > > holy
                    > > > > and call upon
                    > > > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man
                    > > and
                    > > > > Jesus the son of
                    > > > > Mary.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The
                    > > Injeel,
                    > > > > and The Quran has
                    > > > > to say about the 1st commandment.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
                    > > > > might know that the
                    > > > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
                    > > > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God;
                    > > for
                    > > > > there is none
                    > > > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
                    > > > > according to all that we
                    > > > > have heard with our ears].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and
                    > > doest
                    > > > > wondrous things,
                    > > > > thou alone art God].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And#12539;"Which
                    > > > commandment
                    > > > > is the first of
                    > > > > all?"
                    > > > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel:
                    > > The
                    > > > > Lord our God,
                    > > > > the Lord is one].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas
                    > > 112:1-4
                    > > > > Say: He is God,
                    > > > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
                    > > > > begetteth not, nor
                    > > > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto
                    > > Him].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the
                    > > World
                    > > > > are not
                    > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons
                    > > say
                    > > > > they have a
                    > > > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them
                    > > until
                    > > > > the day of
                    > > > > Judgement.
                    > > > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors
                    > > and
                    > > > > Jesus is a god
                    > > > > or an Angel,
                    > > > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
                    > > > > only way to heaven
                    > > > > is through his sect.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do
                    > > not
                    > > > > know if Jehovah's
                    > > > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced
                    > > him
                    > > > > to a god or mere
                    > > > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
                    > > > > better than Angel,
                    > > > > because Angels do not have free will).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about
                    > > this.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in
                    > > repentance
                    > > > > to Him, and fear
                    > > > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye
                    > > among
                    > > > > those who join
                    > > > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their
                    > > Religion,
                    > > > > and become (mere)
                    > > > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is
                    > > with
                    > > > > itself!].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son
                    > > of
                    > > > > Mary and his
                    > > > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on
                    > > high
                    > > > > ground, affording
                    > > > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O
                    > > ye
                    > > > > messengers! enjoy
                    > > > > (all) things good and pure, and work
                    > > righteousness:
                    > > > > for I am well-
                    > > > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
                    > > > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
                    > > > > Brotherhood. And I
                    > > > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me
                    > > (and
                    > > > > no other). But
                    > > > > people have cut off their affair (of unity),
                    > > between
                    > > > > them, into
                    > > > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
                    > > > > itself. But leave
                    > > > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
                    > > > > Do they think that because We have granted them
                    > > > > abundance of wealth
                    > > > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
                    > > > > Nay, they do not
                    > > > > understand].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus
                    > > &
                    > > > > the priests are
                    > > > > claiming that Jesus is God.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
                    > > > > Truth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here is my favourite and the most
                    > > > > interesting/scientific site:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > www.it-is-truth.org
                    > > > > www.it-is-truth.net
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Honey.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                    > > to:
                    > > > >
                    > > theexistentialsociety-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    > > > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
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                    > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building
                    > > tool.
                    > > > > Try it!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > > > removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theexistentialsociety/
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                    > > to:
                    > > > >
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                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > =====
                    > > > --Monte Morris
                    > > > Philosopher wannabe
                    > > > Japan
                    > > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > __________________________________
                    > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
                    > > online.
                    > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --Monte Morris
                    > Philosopher wannabe
                    > Japan
                    > "Needs to find a good quote"
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • (*~0~*)
                    No offense, but what do these debates or comments about biblical interpretation have to do with Existentialism, as in the traditional philosophy of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 20, 2004
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                      No offense, but what do these debates or comments about biblical
                      interpretation have to do with Existentialism, as in the
                      traditional philosophy of Existentialism...?
                      Also, Honey I'm wondering which Existentialist philosophers you've
                      read or are interested in, since this is a list concerned with
                      Existetialism and all... I'm curious because your ideas or comments
                      don't seem very Existential, at least in the traditional sense...

                      amanda
                    • Monte Morris
                      Thanks for your reply. I will add some of my comments below. honeybaby2012 wrote: Dear Monte, Monte s Question: #12539;2. (Exodus
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 20, 2004
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                        Thanks for your reply. I will add some of my comments below.

                        honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@...> wrote:

                        Dear Monte,


                        Monte's Question:
                        #12539;2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
                        in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
                        earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

                        This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
                        been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
                        viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
                        evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
                        As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
                        different than what you posted.

                        In the name of Allah Most Gracious most Merciful.
                        Answer from Honey:
                        Dear Monte,
                        The 10 commandments are v. well known, I searched for the 10
                        commandments, in google and I got the following :

                        "And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God#12539;lt;BR> ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

                        TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of
                        anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
                        that is in the water under the earth.'

                        THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
                        Here is the site :
                        http://www.10-commandments.org

                        ---The Ten Commandments are well known, but the translations differ, depending on the version of the Bible used. I gave you a citation from the NRSV, which is the most widely accepted scholarly edition. The reason for this is that, rather than translating the Bible and trying to make it justify pre-existing doctrine or tradition, this version attempts to translate into English what was said, as opposed to what is infered from tradition or pre-conceived theological notions. Thus, I will take the translation that I gave to you out of hte NRSV over the ones from the 10 commandments site. As you can see, the wording is very different, and from these different translations, different ideas of theology and belief can develop.

                        #12539;onte's Question:
                        #12539;#12539;nd believes that thier invocations are directed to the same
                        Being, are they in violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus
                        20:5, which states that
                        "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
                        reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
                        images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
                        about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
                        makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
                        is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3
                        parts, each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.


                        Answer from Honey.
                        To me worshipping is none other than praying to the worshipped being
                        asking him to do things such as :
                        to lift a burden, to heal the sick or to save from the punishment of
                        the hell fire etc#12539; I call this worship, and we all know that most
                        Christians worship Jesus peace be upon him or Mary may Allah be
                        please with her.


                        --Honey, your ignorance of Christianity truly shows here. There is no Christian sect that worships Mary, and there are only a small number of Catholics who would claim that she has a direct role in the world. Catholic tradition holds in the belief of Saints who can be invoked for protection or help in certain situations, and sometimes Mary is seen as an open ear for trouble. However, most Catholics don't see these traditions as valid, and they are completely absent from Protestant and Orthodox beliefs. To make the claim that "we all know most Christians worship Jesus and Mary" is absolutely false. ALL Christians worship Jesus as they belief Jesus WAS God, but there are none who worship Mary. Whereever did you get this idea?



                        Monte's Question:
                        2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                        > was shattered with> the image of Jesus on the cross and the image
                        of> Mary#12539;

                        I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
                        looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
                        Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
                        Nothing says that one may not make an

                        Answer from Honey:
                        If what I understood from the above is correct; then let me rephrase
                        what you are saying: we are not worshiping the graven images of Jesus
                        or Mary, these are only symbols but we are worshipping Jesus himself
                        or Mary the person.
                        I believe this is in violation of the 1st and 2nd commandments.
                        The pagans will say exactly the same thing.


                        ---No, you completely misunderstood what I said. The images are symbols, which point to a particular belief, or serve as reminders of faith. Jesus is not worshipped as a person, but as God. Christians believe that Jesus was God. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. Mary is not worshipped at all, but with some Catholics takes a special place for having brought Christ into the world so that he could atone for humanity's sins. Mary's influence is actually quite small, even in the realm of Catholicism. She is mostly talked about within mystical traditions. If they, as humans, were worshipped, then they would be in violation of the 1st Commandment. But, since they images are never worshipped, they would not be in violation of the 2nd Commandment.


                        http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
                        #12539; development of Christian thought, after Paul,
                        wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire book can be read on-
                        line at :
                        http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
                        For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
                        wrote a book ofthis magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
                        Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
                        before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
                        arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.

                        Answer from Honey.
                        Thanks#12539;so to this day.. for the past 2000 years, Christians still
                        debate the issue of trinity.
                        Here is what the quran said to people about the trinity 1400 years
                        ago:

                        The quran says :
                        O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of
                        Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more
                        than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary,
                        and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His
                        Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for
                        Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a
                        son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
                        is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

                        Quran 5.77. Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion
                        the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor
                        follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,
                        who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

                        ---That's nice. So, now you know that many Christians agree with you that the Trinity is not important. So, why do you insist on debating it? I don't find much to be gained from bickering about theology. And, from my understanding of the Quran, the issue is to have a personal relationship with God, and not to be so concerned with theology. This is also true of most Christians in practice, whether they accept the idea of the Trinity or not. If you take the time to observe the actions of Christians, you won't find any evidence of the Trinity in most cases. It's mostly a matter of semantics. Most Christians will hold that God is one, but has 3 manifestations. As i stated earlier, one falls into violation of the 10 Commandments if their actions suggest that they are worshipping 3 distinct beings. YOu are taking issue with a theology, one that few practing Christians have a strong opinion on, and then denouncing all of Christianity because of it. My opinion is that your methodology is
                        flawed.

                        Here a v. interesting story I read on the internet about an innocent
                        American master degree student#12539;who was searching for the truth, how
                        the bishop or the priest told her that the trinity cannot be
                        explained#12539;. and when she ran away to the far east to embrace
                        Buddhism she was told to prostrate to the statue of Buddaha#12539; And how
                        finally God guided her to the truth and how she embraced Islam#12539;lt;BR>
                        http://www.islamonline.net/english/journey/2004/02/jour01.shtml

                        ---OK. Unfortunately for this story Buddha is not a god and Buddhists don't prostrate in front of statues. In order to understand this story, you have to understand Buddhism, which is much more complex than Christianity in the vast amount of differences there are in it. In short, Buddhas are enightened humans, people who have attained Nirvana and are revered as teachers. In Japan, where this story allegedly takes place, bowing is considered a sign of respect. It is neither worship nor prostration. The statues depict the teachers of the particular school of thought. As such, when the students of the school in which one enlists, are asked to bow, it is to show respect to the person whose knowledge is being passed on to them. The statues are much like statues or leaders from other parts of the world. THey are not divine, they are not worshipped. I think it's time to learn a little about the other faiths in the world, along with the cultures and history of the areas they are in. To
                        further make this case, students in martial arts in Japan will bow to pictures, whether film or a drawing or a painting, of the founder of the dojo they practice in. It's all about respect.

                        You mentioned about the hair of Prophet Mohammed Peace be upon him,
                        to my knowledge the hair of Mohammed is never worshipped, but some
                        people treat it as relic.

                        --And no one worships the crucifix in Christianity, the statues of Mary or the statues of the Bodhisatvas. But that doesn't stop you from condemning them. Why, when the objects alleged to be of Mohammad are treated with such reverence, and at times, prayed to, are you free from judgement? Just a thought.



                        With my best wishes.
                        Honey.


                        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte Morris
                        <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                        > Honey,
                        > As I stated earlier, I don't want to get involved in a huge
                        controversy on this subject. However, I do have some comments for you.
                        >
                        > > Let us take the 1st two commandments.
                        > >
                        > > 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
                        > >
                        > > 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                        > >
                        > > 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
                        > > in vain;
                        > >
                        > > The above are the 1st 3 of the 10 commandements I
                        > > copied them from a
                        > > a bible site.
                        > --And which site might that be? Not that it's a big deal. I can go
                        to Google.com and type in "10 Commandments," Or I can also go here
                        to http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm
                        > This is a site that takes the time to detail the 10 Commandments,
                        give citations of where they are in the Bible, as well as states them
                        as they appear in one of the translations. Would you like to see how
                        the Bible, in the NRSV (New Standard Revised Translation) puts it?
                        > From Exodus 20:4 (though the Commandments are not necessarily
                        presented in the order, as presented in Exodus)
                        > 1. (Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
                        for I the Lord your God am a jealous God.
                        > 2. (Exodus 20:4-)You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether
                        in the form of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the
                        earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
                        >
                        > This site also takes the time to analyze who the authors might have
                        been, while taking into consideration Conservative and Liberal
                        viewpoints. It keeps the texts in thier historical context while
                        evaluating what they may have been trying to say. Give it a shot.
                        > As you can see, the Commandments as stated in the Bible are quite
                        different than what you posted.
                        > >
                        > > To me most Christians have broken the 2 most
                        > > important commandments :
                        > >
                        > > 1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me; was
                        > > shattered with the
                        > > father is God, the son is God, and the holy spirit
                        > > (Gabriel) is God.
                        >
                        > --I'll take issue with this in that the concept of the Trinity
                        states that God is one God. While the critique I offered of the
                        Trinity shows how a Christian could be in violation of this
                        Commandment. If a Christian worships in good faith, and believes that
                        thier invocations are directed to the same Being, are they in
                        violation of this Commandment? Looking at Exodus 20:5, which states
                        that "you shall not bow down to them or worship them" is a direct
                        reference to Exodus 20:4, which states that one may not make any
                        images and use them as objects of worship. It does not state anything
                        about God, except the implication that God alone is the true God. It
                        makes no statement on to what the nature of God is, except that God
                        is a jealous God. The Trinity states that God is one, but of 3 parts,
                        each inter-related. I'll come back to this in a moment.
                        >
                        > 2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
                        > > was shattered with
                        > > the image of Jesus on the cross and the image of
                        > > Mary#12539;
                        >
                        > --I don't know where the phrase "graven image" comes from, but when
                        looking at Exodus 20:4, which must be taken into consideration with
                        Exodus 20:5, the images cannot be worshipped or bowed down to.
                        Nothing says that one may not make an image. If that were so, we
                        would not have any art or pictures, or anything else of this sort.
                        God did not forbid the use of images, only the way in which they are
                        used.
                        > The charge is something that goes back to the Gentiles, who were
                        pagan and worshipped images, or false gods. As can be cited numerous
                        times in the Old Testament, God would show his face only to the most
                        righteous. The implication being that not all were worthy of seeing
                        God's face, and therefore, no image was needed to worship God, as God
                        was not like the false gods of the Gentiles.
                        > I would further argue that the image of Jesus on the Cross, or the
                        pictures and statues of of Mary are not worshiped. They serve as
                        symbols and reminders of one's faith, but not as objects of worship.
                        Therefore, they are not, a priori, a violation of this Commandment.
                        Again, it goes back to the way that things are USED. This line of
                        reasoning is also invoked by Muslims who consider shreds of
                        Mohammed's hair to be sacred. There are plenty of other examples of
                        actions, taken by some Muslims, that might be considered worshipful
                        of Mohammed, to the expense of Allah. Why should not these objects
                        fall under the same category, by your reasoning? Is it because they
                        are not "an image?" If that is the case, then couldn't such behavior
                        be an infraction of the First Commandment, "you shall have no god
                        before me"? What it comes back down to is one's behavior. One of the
                        central principles of Islam is to bend one's will to Allah's. In that
                        case, following Allah's will is more important than
                        > following established doctrine or dogma, if one can reasonable be
                        sure that it is wrong. That is why there is no one Christian
                        doctrine. That is why there is no one established Islamic doctrine,
                        though one will always find people in both Christian and Islamic
                        schools of thought who think they have the monopoly on truth.
                        >
                        > Check this site to learn how the trinity doctrine
                        > > originated:
                        > > http://cocg.org/broch1/eb031.htm
                        > >
                        > --I visited this site, and I have to say that it is very poor. It
                        fails to discuss at length any of the important facts, lacks
                        citations, and analysis. Take a look at these sites if you want
                        something of any substance. http://home.rmci.net/cbolton/TRIN.HTM (a
                        very good article on the history of the Trinity conflict that
                        culminated in the Council of Nicea.) What you will also find here,
                        Honey, is that the Trinity is still a subject of debate in today's
                        Christian churches, where not all believe in it, and many others
                        reject outright. To say that all Christians are in violation of the
                        first two Commandments shows a lack of understanding of Christianity.
                        > --In case anyone wants more information on the Trinity debate,
                        check this site: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/trinity2.htm
                        > --To add more fuel to the fire, St. Augustine of Hippo, considered
                        to be the 2nd most influential person to the development of Christian
                        thought, after Paul, wrote a book called "On the Trinity." The entire
                        book can be read on-line at :
                        http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
                        > For the record, St Augustine lived from (354-430). Given that he
                        wrote a book of this magnitude, devoted to just the doctrine of the
                        Trinity, shows that there was a long and rich history to the debate
                        before the Council of Nicaea and the idea that it was just an
                        arbitrary decision is much to simplistic of an answer.
                        >
                        > --Monte
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > With my best wishes to all,
                        > > Honey.
                        > >
                        > > --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, Monte
                        > > Morris
                        > > <monteamorris@y...> wrote:
                        > > > Hello all,
                        > > > Whereas I don't really want to get into a huge
                        > > > controversy here, the Trinity has been a lightning
                        > > rod
                        > > > for criticism from a number of different
                        > > religions,
                        > > > particularly due to the polythiestic "appearence,"
                        > > if
                        > > > you prefer to label it that way.
                        > > > The problem with the Trinity is that there are a
                        > > large
                        > > > number of Christians who behave in such a manner
                        > > as
                        > > > that it appears that they are interacting with
                        > > three
                        > > > different entities. The criticism is that if each
                        > > of
                        > > > these "aspects of God" are entreated at different
                        > > > times, then they are in fact, 3 separate Gods, not
                        > > > one, as Christian dogma states. The actions of the
                        > > > worshipper proves that what is statad, is wrong.
                        > > It is
                        > > > an application of one of Jesus' own sayings, "the
                        > > tree
                        > > > is judged by its fruit."
                        > > >
                        > > > What that means is, I can judge what is truly the
                        > > case
                        > > > by viewing your actions. Take the case of the
                        > > moralist
                        > > > Bill Bennett, who has now been revealed to be a
                        > > heavy
                        > > > gambler and to have had interactions with a Las
                        > > Vegas
                        > > > dominatrix. He is a hypocrite as a result of his
                        > > > actions. He is not a moral person, despite what he
                        > > > says. His actions show that his appearance is
                        > > nothing
                        > > > more than that--an appearance.
                        > > > Taking this example, one can say that Christianity
                        > > is
                        > > > not a monothiestic religion due to the fact that
                        > > those
                        > > > who practice it appeal to three distinct entities.
                        > > The
                        > > > statement that they are all one and the same
                        > > becomes
                        > > > irrelevant. If they are all the same entity, then
                        > > why
                        > > > separate the three and invoke them at different
                        > > times?
                        > > > Similarly, there are also Christian charges
                        > > against
                        > > > Islam, of deifying Mohammad, based on the same
                        > > type of
                        > > > arguement. However, they can simply retort, you
                        > > > deified Jesus of Nazareth and call him God.
                        > > However,
                        > > > despite this retort, that doesn't make the
                        > > arguement
                        > > > go away.
                        > > > The point of this is, despite accepted Christian
                        > > > theology, the critique still stands so long as
                        > > > practitioners of Christianity behave as though
                        > > they
                        > > > are interacting with 3 distinct entities. No
                        > > amount of
                        > > > words, whether established Christian doctrine or
                        > > not,
                        > > > is going to defend you from it. By the actions,
                        > > the
                        > > > words are shown to be untrue.
                        > > > That, in a nutshell, is the Trinity critique, and
                        > > the
                        > > > arguement that trys to show that Christianity is
                        > > not
                        > > > monothiestic.
                        > > > Have a good day!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- Will Quinn <kashmirlight@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > Dear Sir,
                        > > > > Your argument shows a basic misunderstanding of
                        > > the
                        > > > > Christian faith and of the various sects of
                        > > > > Christianity.
                        > > > > As to your first argument, the claim Christians
                        > > are
                        > > > > polytheistic is simply untrue. The Trinity is a
                        > > > > hard doctrine to understand, and I certainly
                        > > don't
                        > > > > pretend to be an expert, but I do know this:
                        > > God,
                        > > > > Christ, and the Holy Spirit are equal branches
                        > > which
                        > > > > are all inter-connected. Each part together is
                        > > God.
                        > > > > Each is a vital organ, the heart, the brain,
                        > > the
                        > > > > lungs. A body cannot exist without all three of
                        > > > > these things. There is God the Father, Christ
                        > > the
                        > > > > Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christian theology
                        > > holds
                        > > > > that these are unique manifestations of God, as
                        > > well
                        > > > > as being fully God. Each has existed eternally,
                        > > and
                        > > > > all have been one and seperate.
                        > > > > To your second set of points regarding Christ.
                        > > To
                        > > > > call only upon Christ is ignorant, as he is one
                        > > > > aspect of God, and God the Father and the Holy
                        > > > > Spirit have their own unique roles to play.
                        > > Those
                        > > > > that pray to saints (Catholics, I believe) are
                        > > > > incorrect in my view as well. I do not need
                        > > anyone
                        > > > > to act as an intercessor on my part. The
                        > > seperation
                        > > > > between Man and God was bridged by Christ; none
                        > > of
                        > > > > these saints have divine power over anything in
                        > > our
                        > > > > lives anymore.
                        > > > > As to your claim that "The Born Again's say all
                        > > the
                        > > > > Catholics of the World are not
                        > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire" is simply
                        > > > > incorrect, and those that do hold such a belief
                        > > are
                        > > > > arrogant and ignorant. Christ was
                        > > all-inclusive,
                        > > > > and stepped beyond the mere barriers of sect and
                        > > > > party. Those things are truly meaningless, and
                        > > > > Christ broke people out of their labels and
                        > > > > sub-groups into simply the children of God. The
                        > > > > Bible says that all that is needed to be saved
                        > > is to
                        > > > > believe, love and accept Jesus as the Savior; it
                        > > > > doesn't matter if you are Catholic,
                        > > Presbyterian,
                        > > > > Anglican, or any other denomination. As to the
                        > > > > claims about the Mormons and the Jehovah's
                        > > > > Witnesses, I cannot say.
                        > > > > These errors are gross and misleading about the
                        > > > > Christian faith, and you don't do you your own
                        > > faith
                        > > > > justice by trying to convince others by these
                        > > false
                        > > > > points. You are better than that.
                        > > > > I would also entreat you to consider Christ, and
                        > > to
                        > > > > think through all aspects of belief. Make your
                        > > own
                        > > > > choice; it is your priveledge and your burden.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Will Quinn
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > honeybaby2012 <honeybaby2012@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > Dear All
                        > > > > In all the religions of God from Adam down to
                        > > > > Prophet Mohammed Peace
                        > > > > be upon them all, the 1st commandment is very
                        > > clear,
                        > > > > i.e. God is
                        > > > > ONE, indivisible # 1.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yet most Christians interpret it totally the
                        > > > > opposite way;
                        > > > >
                        > > > > That Jesus, The Holly spirit (Angel Gabriel)
                        > > Peace
                        > > > > be upon them all
                        > > > > are Equal to the Almighty, and therefore there
                        > > are 3
                        > > > > Gods. i.e. God
                        > > > > is one of three in a Trinity.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Many have stopped calling upon and worshipping
                        > > God
                        > > > > Almighty the
                        > > > > Creator and the Sustainer of the universe and
                        > > > > instead worship Jesus
                        > > > > (pbuh) Saying that God is Christ the Son of
                        > > Mary.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Some even Go far to make Jesus (pbuh) the most
                        > > holy
                        > > > > and call upon
                        > > > > Marry and other saints to intercede between Man
                        > > and
                        > > > > Jesus the son of
                        > > > > Mary.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Let us see what the Torah, The Psalms, The
                        > > Injeel,
                        > > > > and The Quran has
                        > > > > to say about the 1st commandment.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Torah: [Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you
                        > > > > might know that the
                        > > > > LORD is God; there is no other besides him].
                        > > > > [2Sam 7:22 Therefore thou art great, O LORD God;
                        > > for
                        > > > > there is none
                        > > > > like thee, and there is no God besides thee,
                        > > > > according to all that we
                        > > > > have heard with our ears].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The Psalms: [Pss 86:10 For thou art great and
                        > > doest
                        > > > > wondrous things,
                        > > > > thou alone art God].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The Injeel: [Mark 12:28-29 And#12539;"Which
                        > > > commandment
                        > > > > is the first of
                        > > > > all?"
                        > > > > Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel:
                        > > The
                        > > > > Lord our God,
                        > > > > the Lord is one].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The Quran: Translation: Yusufali [al-Ikhlas
                        > > 112:1-4
                        > > > > Say: He is God,
                        > > > > the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
                        > > > > begetteth not, nor
                        > > > > is He begotten; And there is none like unto
                        > > Him].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The Born Again's say all the Catholics of the
                        > > World
                        > > > > are not
                        > > > > Christians and will go to Hell fire, The Mormons
                        > > say
                        > > > > they have a
                        > > > > living Prophet and 12 disciples to guide them
                        > > until
                        > > > > the day of
                        > > > > Judgement.
                        > > > > The Jehovas say the bible contains 50,000 errors
                        > > and
                        > > > > Jesus is a god
                        > > > > or an Angel,
                        > > > > And Each Group is happy with what he has and the
                        > > > > only way to heaven
                        > > > > is through his sect.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > All the Above sects worship Jesus (pbuh), I do
                        > > not
                        > > > > know if Jehovah's
                        > > > > witnesses worship Jesus (pbuh), but they reduced
                        > > him
                        > > > > to a god or mere
                        > > > > Angel. (We believe any ordinary rightous man is
                        > > > > better than Angel,
                        > > > > because Angels do not have free will).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Let us read what the Quran has to say about
                        > > this.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Chapter 30-Romans 31-32. Turn ye back in
                        > > repentance
                        > > > > to Him, and fear
                        > > > > Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye
                        > > among
                        > > > > those who join
                        > > > > gods with Allah, Those who split up their
                        > > Religion,
                        > > > > and become (mere)
                        > > > > sects, each party rejoicing in that which is
                        > > with
                        > > > > itself!].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Chapter 23-Belivers 50-56. And We made the son
                        > > of
                        > > > > Mary and his
                        > > > > mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on
                        > > high
                        > > > > ground, affording
                        > > > > rest and security and furnished with springs. O
                        > > ye
                        > > > > messengers! enjoy
                        > > > > (all) things good and pure, and work
                        > > righteousness:
                        > > > > for I am well-
                        > > > > acquainted with (all) that ye do.
                        > > > > And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single
                        > > > > Brotherhood. And I
                        > > > > am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me
                        > > (and
                        > > > > no other). But
                        > > > > people have cut off their affair (of unity),
                        > > between
                        > > > > them, into
                        > > > > sects: each party rejoices in that which is with
                        > > > > itself. But leave
                        > > > > them in their confused ignorance for a time.
                        > > > > Do they think that because We have granted them
                        > > > > abundance of wealth
                        > > > > and sons, We would hasten them on in every good?
                        > > > > Nay, they do not
                        > > > > understand].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In cortradiction to all the above Paul of Tarsus
                        > > &
                        > > > > the priests are
                        > > > > claiming that Jesus is God.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I live you to carfully ponder with the above.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I ask Allah the Almighty to Guide us all to the
                        > > > > Truth.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Here is my favourite and the most
                        > > > > interesting/scientific site:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > www.it-is-truth.org
                        > > > > www.it-is-truth.net
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Honey.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
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                        > > >
                        > > > =====
                        > > > --Monte Morris
                        > > > Philosopher wannabe
                        > > > Japan
                        > > > "Needs to find a good quote"
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > __________________________________
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --Monte Morris
                        > Philosopher wannabe
                        > Japan
                        > "Needs to find a good quote"
                        >
                        >
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