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Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.

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  • Mark Spencer
    I concurr.  I have a similar set up (with a slightly shorter vertical element) and and have lots of Mix 43 chokes on the feed line and power line.  I also
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
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      I concurr.  I have a similar set up (with a slightly shorter vertical element) and and have lots of Mix 43 chokes on the feed line and power line.  I also added Mix 43 chokes to other antenna feed lines and other condctors near the antenna system.    I also added lots of random length radials to my setup rather than trying to tune the radials.   It seems to work okay on 40 thru 15 meters, and will tune up on 160 thru 6 meters.   I have managed to work some DX on 80 meters and made local contacts on 160 meters.
       
      I wouldn't expect much in the way of performance on 10 and 6 meters due to the length of the vertical element.  
       
      The chokes make a significant difference to received noise and many RFI issues went away as more chokes were added.
       
        --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Mike va3mw <va3mw@...> wrote:

      From: Mike va3mw <va3mw@...>
      Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.
      To: "Smartuners@yahoogroups.com" <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>
      Received: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 8:52 PM

       
      Try adding some mix 43 chokes for common mode filtering. 

      This is worth the read. 


      Mike va3mw


      On Jul 31, 2011, at 12:41 PM, "Conor" <conor_turton@...> wrote:

       


      --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "ncollova" <collova@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am currently running the following setup:
      >
      > Tuner: CG-3000
      > Antenna: 29ft Vertical wire supported by Spiderbeam vertical mast
      > Radials: 8 29 ft attached to DX Enginering radial plate
      >
      > The antenna is mounted on the second story roof of my home.
      >
      > The roof is flat and constructed of rubber type roofing material and it
      > is
      > approximately 25ft from ground level.
      >
      > Almost all of the material I have researched gives great info on the
      > radial
      > networks for ground mounted vertical systems as well as detail on
      > elevated
      > vertical systems that in the best of scenarios are mounted in free
      > space.
      >
      > From what I understand my setup is more like an elevated system than
      > ground
      > mounted and should be more efficient. My eight radials should be
      > approaching the
      > efficiency of ground mounted antenna with the optimum amount of radials.
      >
      > With that said my antenna plays great on 40m 20m 17m
      >
      > It also tunes and makes contacts on 80m and 160 surprisingly but it not
      > optimum
      > on those bands although I have worked some DX on 80M
      >
      > My problem is that the tuner refuses to tune 30M, and has difficulty
      > tuning 10M
      > and 6m.
      >
      > If I work the bands noted to tune up ok, there is no problem
      >
      > The moment I try to tune one of the other bands I cannot tune any of the
      > good
      > bands without resetting the tuner by recycling the power that is fed to
      > it.
      >
      > I have chosen the length of 29ft based on an article I read that advised
      > this
      > length would avoid 1/2 wave resonance of all the bands so tuners such as
      > mine
      > would be able to tune without problem
      >
      > So I think I have a couple potential problems and am looking for advice.
      >
      > First, is there a better length of antenna that will tune all bands,
      > mounted on
      > a roof as I have mine set up? I suspect there are some variables due to
      > where
      > this antenna is mounted that may be throwing the resonance off causing
      > some of
      > my problems.
      >
      > Second, Could there be something wrong with my tuner? Would what I
      > believe is a
      > slightly better product like the SGC line of tuners do better and give
      > me a good
      > match on all bands?
      >
      > Hoping somebody out there has a similar setup and can lend some advice
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Nick
      > KC2OUV
      >

      Your antenna is nearly a quarterwave on the 30m band. In my experience, they don't like tuning lengths near a quarterwave on a band. Either add a couple of feet of wire or cut a couple of feet off. On my inverted L it doesn't like it at 69ft on a couple of bands but tunes fine on all when it is 75ft.

    • jsodus
      Hi Mark, one question..how much is lots ? 73 Jerry KM3K _____ From: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Smartuners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Spencer
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
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        Hi Mark, one question….how much is “lots”? 73 Jerry KM3K

         


        From: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mark Spencer
        Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 2:04 PM
        To: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.

         

         

        I concurr.  I have a similar set up (with a slightly shorter vertical element) and and have lots of Mix 43 chokes on the feed line and power line.  I also added Mix 43 chokes to other antenna feed lines and other condctors near the antenna system.    I also added lots of random length radials to my setup rather than trying to tune the radials.   It seems to work okay on 40 thru 15 meters, and will tune up on 160 thru 6 meters.   I have managed to work some DX on 80 meters and made local contacts on 160 meters.

         

        I wouldn't expect much in the way of performance on 10 and 6 meters due to the length of the vertical element.  

         

        The chokes make a significant difference to received noise and many RFI issues went away as more chokes were added.

         

          --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Mike va3mw <va3mw@...> wrote:


        From: Mike va3mw <va3mw@...>
        Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.
        To: " Smartuners@yahoogroups.com " < Smartuners@yahoogroups.com >
        Received: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 8:52 PM

         

        Try adding some mix 43 chokes for common mode filtering. 

        This is worth the read. 

         

         

        Mike va3mw


        On Jul 31, 2011, at 12:41 PM, "Conor" <conor_turton@...> wrote:

         



        --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "ncollova" <collova@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am currently running the following setup:
        >
        > Tuner: CG-3000
        > Antenna: 29ft Vertical wire supported by Spiderbeam vertical mast
        > Radials: 8 29 ft attached to DX Enginering radial plate
        >
        > The antenna is mounted on the second story roof of my home.
        >
        > The roof is flat and constructed of rubber type roofing material and it
        > is
        > approximately 25ft from ground level.
        >
        > Almost all of the material I have researched gives great info on the
        > radial
        > networks for ground mounted vertical systems as well as detail on
        > elevated
        > vertical systems that in the best of scenarios are mounted in free
        > space.
        >
        > From what I understand my setup is more like an elevated system than
        > ground
        > mounted and should be more efficient. My eight radials should be
        > approaching the
        > efficiency of ground mounted antenna with the optimum amount of radials.
        >
        > With that said my antenna plays great on 40m 20m 17m
        >
        > It also tunes and makes contacts on 80m and 160 surprisingly but it not
        > optimum
        > on those bands although I have worked some DX on 80M
        >
        > My problem is that the tuner refuses to tune 30M, and has difficulty
        > tuning 10M
        > and 6m.
        >
        > If I work the bands noted to tune up ok, there is no problem
        >
        > The moment I try to tune one of the other bands I cannot tune any of the
        > good
        > bands without resetting the tuner by recycling the power that is fed to
        > it.
        >
        > I have chosen the length of 29ft based on an article I read that advised
        > this
        > length would avoid 1/2 wave resonance of all the bands so tuners such as
        > mine
        > would be able to tune without problem
        >
        > So I think I have a couple potential problems and am looking for advice.
        >
        > First, is there a better length of antenna that will tune all bands,
        > mounted on
        > a roof as I have mine set up? I suspect there are some variables due to
        > where
        > this antenna is mounted that may be throwing the resonance off causing
        > some of
        > my problems.
        >
        > Second, Could there be something wrong with my tuner? Would what I
        > believe is a
        > slightly better product like the SGC line of tuners do better and give
        > me a good
        > match on all bands?
        >
        > Hoping somebody out there has a similar setup and can lend some advice
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Nick
        > KC2OUV
        >

        Your antenna is nearly a quarterwave on the 30m band. In my experience, they don't like tuning lengths near a quarterwave on a band. Either add a couple of feet of wire or cut a couple of feet off. On my inverted L it doesn't like it at 69ft on a couple of bands but tunes fine on all when it is 75ft.

      • kb5vwz
        One other comment on my system in a previous message. I used a piece of coax with the outer shield removed to feed antenna from my SGC 230, this coax has some
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
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          One other comment on my system in a previous message.
          I used a piece of coax with the outer shield removed to feed antenna from my SGC 230, this coax has some capacitance to it, I did try just a piece of 10 awg copper wire but it did not seem to work as well as the center piece of coax...this short length is about 20 inches long...
          73 de LA1BRA Tom


          --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "jsodus" <jsodus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mark, one question..how much is "lots"? 73 Jerry KM3K
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Smartuners@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Mark Spencer
          > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 2:04 PM
          > To: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better
          > than the unit noted below.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I concurr. I have a similar set up (with a slightly shorter vertical
          > element) and and have lots of Mix 43 chokes on the feed line and power line.
          > I also added Mix 43 chokes to other antenna feed lines and other condctors
          > near the antenna system. I also added lots of random length radials to my
          > setup rather than trying to tune the radials. It seems to work okay on 40
          > thru 15 meters, and will tune up on 160 thru 6 meters. I have managed to
          > work some DX on 80 meters and made local contacts on 160 meters.
          >
          >
          >
          > I wouldn't expect much in the way of performance on 10 and 6 meters due to
          > the length of the vertical element.
          >
          >
          >
          > The chokes make a significant difference to received noise and many RFI
          > issues went away as more chokes were added.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Mike va3mw <va3mw@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Mike va3mw <va3mw@...>
          > Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better
          > than the unit noted below.
          > To: "Smartuners@yahoogroups.com" <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>
          > Received: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 8:52 PM
          >
          >
          >
          > Try adding some mix 43 chokes for common mode filtering.
          >
          > This is worth the read.
          >
          >
          >
          > http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf
          >
          >
          >
          > Mike va3mw
          >
          >
          > On Jul 31, 2011, at 12:41 PM, "Conor" <conor_turton@...
          > <http://ca.mc388.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conor_turton@...> >
          > wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In
          > <http://ca.mc388.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Smartuners%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
          > <http://ca.mc388.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Smartuners@yahoogroups.com> ,
          > "ncollova" <collova@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I am currently running the following setup:
          > >
          > > Tuner: CG-3000
          > > Antenna: 29ft Vertical wire supported by Spiderbeam vertical mast
          > > Radials: 8 29 ft attached to DX Enginering radial plate
          > >
          > > The antenna is mounted on the second story roof of my home.
          > >
          > > The roof is flat and constructed of rubber type roofing material and it
          > > is
          > > approximately 25ft from ground level.
          > >
          > > Almost all of the material I have researched gives great info on the
          > > radial
          > > networks for ground mounted vertical systems as well as detail on
          > > elevated
          > > vertical systems that in the best of scenarios are mounted in free
          > > space.
          > >
          > > From what I understand my setup is more like an elevated system than
          > > ground
          > > mounted and should be more efficient. My eight radials should be
          > > approaching the
          > > efficiency of ground mounted antenna with the optimum amount of radials.
          > >
          > > With that said my antenna plays great on 40m 20m 17m
          > >
          > > It also tunes and makes contacts on 80m and 160 surprisingly but it not
          > > optimum
          > > on those bands although I have worked some DX on 80M
          > >
          > > My problem is that the tuner refuses to tune 30M, and has difficulty
          > > tuning 10M
          > > and 6m.
          > >
          > > If I work the bands noted to tune up ok, there is no problem
          > >
          > > The moment I try to tune one of the other bands I cannot tune any of the
          > > good
          > > bands without resetting the tuner by recycling the power that is fed to
          > > it.
          > >
          > > I have chosen the length of 29ft based on an article I read that advised
          > > this
          > > length would avoid 1/2 wave resonance of all the bands so tuners such as
          > > mine
          > > would be able to tune without problem
          > >
          > > So I think I have a couple potential problems and am looking for advice.
          > >
          > > First, is there a better length of antenna that will tune all bands,
          > > mounted on
          > > a roof as I have mine set up? I suspect there are some variables due to
          > > where
          > > this antenna is mounted that may be throwing the resonance off causing
          > > some of
          > > my problems.
          > >
          > > Second, Could there be something wrong with my tuner? Would what I
          > > believe is a
          > > slightly better product like the SGC line of tuners do better and give
          > > me a good
          > > match on all bands?
          > >
          > > Hoping somebody out there has a similar setup and can lend some advice
          > >
          > > Thanks.
          > >
          > > Nick
          > > KC2OUV
          > >
          >
          > Your antenna is nearly a quarterwave on the 30m band. In my experience, they
          > don't like tuning lengths near a quarterwave on a band. Either add a couple
          > of feet of wire or cut a couple of feet off. On my inverted L it doesn't
          > like it at 69ft on a couple of bands but tunes fine on all when it is 75ft.
          >
        • k8swd@frontier.com
          The CG-3000 I d basically a clone of an SG-230 but I bet inferior in some respects. Compare the gut specs on both. However, I suspect you do not have a coupler
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
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            The CG-3000 I'd basically a clone of an SG-230 but I bet inferior in some respects. Compare the gut specs on both. However, I suspect you do not have a coupler issue at all! I am assuming your coupler is at the base of you vertical.
            How much metal is under the roof and how close are your counterpoise wires? Hat may be a problem if you have lots of metal, but I doubt it.
            Your vertical radiator is an appropriate length (27.5' is middle of the "window") so it has to be the length of your counterpoise wires. Per SGC, make the negative side of you antenna system big! Your wires although 8 in # are short. Make them 10% longer and see what happens.
            More short radials are better than a few long ones. That's where the random # of additional radials come in. Put in a few 10' and a few 40' radials and see what happens--wire is cheap!
            Now for the vertical part, 28' is really short for 80 and especially 160 so I would not expext much! Even though you can get a match, it isn't much more than a few % efficient--maybe 5% at best and I am being wishful!
            Remember, many of the big sigs on 160 you hear, especially DX and distant NA stations, take this band seriously--think 4 squares with full size Quarterwave veritcals with elevated radials, 1,500 watts, and beverage receive antennas. Also full wave loops, sometimes phased, between 200' or even 300' towers! I know at one point, Matt, KC1XX had two full wave loops in phase on 80m at 200' aimed at EU. He had a "presence" over there!

            I have good luck on all bands with my SG-230 with the vertical wire 145' long over 8 elevated radials--4 were about 70' and 4 were about 60'--all about 12' above ground. The vert wire went up 50' then over and up to 95'. It worked well and I am going to put it back up now that a bunch of trees fell, but with my SG-235 and SGamp and more radials.
            Hope this helps. Rudy, K8SWD
            Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect
          • Christopher Brown
            Jumping in a bit... A good target is 5k or better on all bands of interest. Type 31 is better on the lower bands, type43 slightly better on the higher. See
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
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              Jumping in a bit...


              A good target is 5k or better on all bands of interest. Type 31 is
              better on the lower bands, type43 slightly better on the higher. See
              Jim Browns papers at audio systems group for a great deal of useful info.



              My current SG235 setup has one of the type 31 large clamp-ons and a
              stack of 5 2.5in toroids on the 235 feed/control pigtail (coupler, 6
              inches cable, clamp, 4 inches, 6 in pigtail).

              The feed/control then runs 30ft, 8 inches underground, and there are 2
              more chokes then a bond to station ground then on the radio.



              Without the chokes at the coupler, the coax was more often then not
              acting as a radial...

              All of the chokes, at coupler and along feedline reduce the conducted RF
              from the house, that would then couple into the antenna and raise the
              noise floor.


              On 8/1/11 11:18 AM, jsodus wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Mark, one question….how much is “lots”? 73 Jerry KM3K
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > *From:*Smartuners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Smartuners@yahoogroups.com]
              > *On Behalf Of *Mark Spencer
              > *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 2:04 PM
              > *To:* Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
              > *Subject:* Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup
              > better than the unit noted below.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I concurr. I have a similar set up (with a slightly shorter vertical
              > element) and and have lots of Mix 43 chokes on the feed line and power
              > line. I also added Mix 43 chokes to other antenna feed lines and other
              > condctors near the antenna system. I also added lots of random length
              > radials to my setup rather than trying to tune the radials. It seems
              > to work okay on 40 thru 15 meters, and will tune up on 160 thru 6
              > meters. I have managed to work some DX on 80 meters and made local
              > contacts on 160 meters.
              >
              >
              >
              > I wouldn't expect much in the way of performance on 10 and 6 meters due
              > to the length of the vertical element.
              >
              >
              >
              > The chokes make a significant difference to received noise and many RFI
              > issues went away as more chokes were added.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On *Sun, 7/31/11, Mike va3mw /<va3mw@...>/* wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Mike va3mw <va3mw@...>
              > Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup
              > better than the unit noted below.
              > To: "Smartuners@yahoogroups.com" <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>
              > Received: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 8:52 PM
              >
              >
              >
              > Try adding some mix 43 chokes for common mode filtering.
              >
              > This is worth the read.
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf
              >
              >
              >
              > Mike va3mw
              >
              >
              > On Jul 31, 2011, at 12:41 PM, "Conor" <conor_turton@...
              > <http://ca.mc388.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conor_turton@...>>
              > wrote:
              >
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> --- In
              >> <http://ca.mc388.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Smartuners%40yahoogroups.com>Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
              >> <http://ca.mc388.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>,
              >> "ncollova" <collova@...> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > I am currently running the following setup:
              >> >
              >> > Tuner: CG-3000
              >> > Antenna: 29ft Vertical wire supported by Spiderbeam vertical mast
              >> > Radials: 8 29 ft attached to DX Enginering radial plate
              >> >
              >> > The antenna is mounted on the second story roof of my home.
              >> >
              >> > The roof is flat and constructed of rubber type roofing material
              >> and it
              >> > is
              >> > approximately 25ft from ground level.
              >> >
              >> > Almost all of the material I have researched gives great info on the
              >> > radial
              >> > networks for ground mounted vertical systems as well as detail on
              >> > elevated
              >> > vertical systems that in the best of scenarios are mounted in free
              >> > space.
              >> >
              >> > From what I understand my setup is more like an elevated system than
              >> > ground
              >> > mounted and should be more efficient. My eight radials should be
              >> > approaching the
              >> > efficiency of ground mounted antenna with the optimum amount of
              >> radials.
              >> >
              >> > With that said my antenna plays great on 40m 20m 17m
              >> >
              >> > It also tunes and makes contacts on 80m and 160 surprisingly but
              >> it not
              >> > optimum
              >> > on those bands although I have worked some DX on 80M
              >> >
              >> > My problem is that the tuner refuses to tune 30M, and has difficulty
              >> > tuning 10M
              >> > and 6m.
              >> >
              >> > If I work the bands noted to tune up ok, there is no problem
              >> >
              >> > The moment I try to tune one of the other bands I cannot tune any
              >> of the
              >> > good
              >> > bands without resetting the tuner by recycling the power that is
              >> fed to
              >> > it.
              >> >
              >> > I have chosen the length of 29ft based on an article I read that
              >> advised
              >> > this
              >> > length would avoid 1/2 wave resonance of all the bands so tuners
              >> such as
              >> > mine
              >> > would be able to tune without problem
              >> >
              >> > So I think I have a couple potential problems and am looking for
              >> advice.
              >> >
              >> > First, is there a better length of antenna that will tune all bands,
              >> > mounted on
              >> > a roof as I have mine set up? I suspect there are some variables
              >> due to
              >> > where
              >> > this antenna is mounted that may be throwing the resonance off
              >> causing
              >> > some of
              >> > my problems.
              >> >
              >> > Second, Could there be something wrong with my tuner? Would what I
              >> > believe is a
              >> > slightly better product like the SGC line of tuners do better and
              >> give
              >> > me a good
              >> > match on all bands?
              >> >
              >> > Hoping somebody out there has a similar setup and can lend some
              >> advice
              >> >
              >> > Thanks.
              >> >
              >> > Nick
              >> > KC2OUV
              >> >
              >>
              >> Your antenna is nearly a quarterwave on the 30m band. In my
              >> experience, they don't like tuning lengths near a quarterwave on a
              >> band. Either add a couple of feet of wire or cut a couple of feet
              >> off. On my inverted L it doesn't like it at 69ft on a couple of
              >> bands but tunes fine on all when it is 75ft.
              >>
              >
              >
              >
            • ncollova
              All of the above advice has been helpful. I picked up a couple extra lugs on the way home from work today to shorten the #6 wire I have running from the ground
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                All of the above advice has been helpful.

                I picked up a couple extra lugs on the way home from work today to shorten the #6 wire I have running from the ground post of the tuner to the radial plate.

                I'm currently about 8"-10" from the radial plate to the negative terminal of the tuner. With a little dexterity i'm sure I can close that to few inches.

                I remember reading somewhere else in the past to keep that as short as possible. It certainly cannot hurt and it will get me closer to optimum and remove one variable.

                I clipped 1 ft off the antenna down to 28ft last night at midnight. Only to go to bed frustrated that it tunes worse now. This piece might end up being a exercise in experimentation

                It still tunes the same bands but all a little worse now. Most were stable at 1:1 before and now the best are 1:1 or close and some approach 1.5:1 causing my radio to start to cut back on power.

                It also seems like once in a while I have to recycle the tuner to get the bands that tune to tune better.

                Oh and yes my coupler is at the base of the antenna.

                One of the other posts questioned the composition of my roof and building. Its an older home of masonry construction that does not have central air so there are no ducts to contend with. There is some heating plumbing going through the attic and crawlspace along with some copper plumbing soil stacks. There is also BX style electrical running thru the attic.

                I would say in general that there is less metal to interact with than a modern home but what is there is likely complicating things.

                The radial placement is not symmetrical nor do they run straight from the plate in all directions. Most are in excess of a few feet apart except of course where they radiate from the plate.

                Some dog leg when they reach the perimeter of the roof but they never cross or double back.

                The closest are at least 2'-4' apart at their ends.

                My to do list tonight was to:

                Shorten the wire from ground of the tuner to the radial plate and;

                add back 5 feet of antenna and slowly clip it back and test for best result. (not that I don't agree with your advice on messing with the radials but I was going to try the easiest first.

                Unfortunately as soon as I got home from work thunderstorms rolled in I have lightning crashing down all around so no experimenting tonight.

                I'll let you guys know how it works out hopefully tomorrow.

                One last question though. I was being a little anal about not wanting to splice in a piece on the antenna. If I solder a section back on it is not likely to have an effect is it?

                Thanks again to everyone for all their suggestions

                Nick
                KC2OUV


                --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, k8swd@... wrote:
                >
                > The CG-3000 I'd basically a clone of an SG-230 but I bet inferior in some respects. Compare the gut specs on both. However, I suspect you do not have a coupler issue at all! I am assuming your coupler is at the base of you vertical.
                > How much metal is under the roof and how close are your counterpoise wires? Hat may be a problem if you have lots of metal, but I doubt it.
                > Your vertical radiator is an appropriate length (27.5' is middle of the "window") so it has to be the length of your counterpoise wires. Per SGC, make the negative side of you antenna system big! Your wires although 8 in # are short. Make them 10% longer and see what happens.
                > More short radials are better than a few long ones. That's where the random # of additional radials come in. Put in a few 10' and a few 40' radials and see what happens--wire is cheap!
                > Now for the vertical part, 28' is really short for 80 and especially 160 so I would not expext much! Even though you can get a match, it isn't much more than a few % efficient--maybe 5% at best and I am being wishful!
                > Remember, many of the big sigs on 160 you hear, especially DX and distant NA stations, take this band seriously--think 4 squares with full size Quarterwave veritcals with elevated radials, 1,500 watts, and beverage receive antennas. Also full wave loops, sometimes phased, between 200' or even 300' towers! I know at one point, Matt, KC1XX had two full wave loops in phase on 80m at 200' aimed at EU. He had a "presence" over there!
                >
                > I have good luck on all bands with my SG-230 with the vertical wire 145' long over 8 elevated radials--4 were about 70' and 4 were about 60'--all about 12' above ground. The vert wire went up 50' then over and up to 95'. It worked well and I am going to put it back up now that a bunch of trees fell, but with my SG-235 and SGamp and more radials.
                > Hope this helps. Rudy, K8SWD
                > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect
                >
              • Tim Armagost
                No problem re-soldering the antenna...it will look as good as the old length to the coupler and radio. Tim, WBØTUB ... From: ncollova To:
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  No problem re-soldering the antenna...it will look as good as the old length to the coupler and radio.
                   
                  Tim, WBØTUB
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: ncollova
                  Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 6:47 PM
                  Subject: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.

                   

                  All of the above advice has been helpful.

                  I picked up a couple extra lugs on the way home from work today to shorten the #6 wire I have running from the ground post of the tuner to the radial plate.

                  I'm currently about 8"-10" from the radial plate to the negative terminal of the tuner. With a little dexterity i'm sure I can close that to few inches.

                  I remember reading somewhere else in the past to keep that as short as possible. It certainly cannot hurt and it will get me closer to optimum and remove one variable.

                  I clipped 1 ft off the antenna down to 28ft last night at midnight. Only to go to bed frustrated that it tunes worse now. This piece might end up being a exercise in experimentation

                  It still tunes the same bands but all a little worse now. Most were stable at 1:1 before and now the best are 1:1 or close and some approach 1.5:1 causing my radio to start to cut back on power.

                  It also seems like once in a while I have to recycle the tuner to get the bands that tune to tune better.

                  Oh and yes my coupler is at the base of the antenna.

                  One of the other posts questioned the composition of my roof and building. Its an older home of masonry construction that does not have central air so there are no ducts to contend with. There is some heating plumbing going through the attic and crawlspace along with some copper plumbing soil stacks. There is also BX style electrical running thru the attic.

                  I would say in general that there is less metal to interact with than a modern home but what is there is likely complicating things.

                  The radial placement is not symmetrical nor do they run straight from the plate in all directions. Most are in excess of a few feet apart except of course where they radiate from the plate.

                  Some dog leg when they reach the perimeter of the roof but they never cross or double back.

                  The closest are at least 2'-4' apart at their ends.

                  My to do list tonight was to:

                  Shorten the wire from ground of the tuner to the radial plate and;

                  add back 5 feet of antenna and slowly clip it back and test for best result. (not that I don't agree with your advice on messing with the radials but I was going to try the easiest first.

                  Unfortunately as soon as I got home from work thunderstorms rolled in I have lightning crashing down all around so no experimenting tonight.

                  I'll let you guys know how it works out hopefully tomorrow.

                  One last question though. I was being a little anal about not wanting to splice in a piece on the antenna. If I solder a section back on it is not likely to have an effect is it?

                  Thanks again to everyone for all their suggestions

                  Nick
                  KC2OUV


                  --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, k8swd@... wrote:
                  >
                  > The CG-3000 I'd basically a clone of an SG-230 but I bet inferior in some respects. Compare the gut specs on both. However, I suspect you do not have a coupler issue at all! I am assuming your coupler is at the base of you vertical.
                  > How much metal is under the roof and how close are your counterpoise wires? Hat may be a problem if you have lots of metal, but I doubt it.
                  > Your vertical radiator is an appropriate length (27.5' is middle of the "window") so it has to be the length of your counterpoise wires. Per SGC, make the negative side of you antenna system big! Your wires although 8 in # are short. Make them 10% longer and see what happens.
                  > More short radials are better than a few long ones. That's where the random # of additional radials come in. Put in a few 10' and a few 40' radials and see what happens--wire is cheap!
                  > Now for the vertical part, 28' is really short for 80 and especially 160 so I would not expext much! Even though you can get a match, it isn't much more than a few % efficient--maybe 5% at best and I am being wishful!
                  > Remember, many of the big sigs on 160 you hear, especially DX and distant NA stations, take this band seriously--think 4 squares with full size Quarterwave veritcals with elevated radials, 1,500 watts, and beverage receive antennas. Also full wave loops, sometimes phased, between 200' or even 300' towers! I know at one point, Matt, KC1XX had two full wave loops in phase on 80m at 200' aimed at EU. He had a "presence" over there!
                  >
                  > I have good luck on all bands with my SG-230 with the vertical wire 145' long over 8 elevated radials--4 were about 70' and 4 were about 60'--all about 12' above ground. The vert wire went up 50' then over and up to 95'. It worked well and I am going to put it back up now that a bunch of trees fell, but with my SG-235 and SGamp and more radials.
                  > Hope this helps. Rudy, K8SWD
                  > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect
                  >

                • k8swd@frontier.com
                  I am not familiar with the manual that cam with your coupler, but if you have not downloaded and read the SGC-230 manual, please do so. Think or your radial
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I am not familiar with the manual that cam with your coupler, but if you have not downloaded and read the SGC-230 manual, please do so. Think or your radial wires as a car and the vertical wire (driven) as the whip. The bigger the metal coverage under your whip, the better the return path and better your signal (of course there more to it than that). Why did you cut radials the same length as your whip? It should NOT be a balanced antenna (unless a loop). Even with a dipole with one of these couplers, have the - end 5-10% longer than the + end.
                    Another technique you can do is what I call the "stepping stone" method of tuning. If you can't get a good match on an even band, then go to an odd band and tune, then return to a different spot on the even band and try again. Depending on the coupler specs, anything under 1:7:1 swr is fine. If your rig is cutting back below 2:1, then an adjustment should be made to it. You don't need 1.1:1 on every frequency and to expect that on a such a frequency agile antenna system, especially a short antenna, is wishful. It is not a resonant system, but a compromise with the coupler filling in what you have physically not provided.
                    It sounds like you are on your way to a pretty nice setup, but it just needs a bit more under it and also maybe above it.
                    Rudy, K8SWD
                    Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect
                  • jsodus
                    Hi Rudy, you lost me with ..even band, and ...odd band... . What is meant there? 73 Jerry KM3K ... From: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 2, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Rudy, you lost me with "..even band," and "...odd band...".
                      What is meant there?
                      73 Jerry KM3K

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Smartuners@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of k8swd@...
                      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 10:30 PM
                      To: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better
                      than the unit noted below.

                      I am not familiar with the manual that cam with your coupler, but if you
                      have not downloaded and read the SGC-230 manual, please do so. Think or
                      your radial wires as a car and the vertical wire (driven) as the whip. The
                      bigger the metal coverage under your whip, the better the return path and
                      better your signal (of course there more to it than that). Why did you cut
                      radials the same length as your whip? It should NOT be a balanced antenna
                      (unless a loop). Even with a dipole with one of these couplers, have the -
                      end 5-10% longer than the + end.
                      Another technique you can do is what I call the "stepping stone" method of
                      tuning. If you can't get a good match on an even band, then go to an odd
                      band and tune, then return to a different spot on the even band and try
                      again. Depending on the coupler specs, anything under 1:7:1 swr is fine. If
                      your rig is cutting back below 2:1, then an adjustment should be made to it.
                      You don't need 1.1:1 on every frequency and to expect that on a such a
                      frequency agile antenna system, especially a short antenna, is wishful. It
                      is not a resonant system, but a compromise with the coupler filling in what
                      you have physically not provided.
                      It sounds like you are on your way to a pretty nice setup, but it just needs
                      a bit more under it and also maybe above it.
                      Rudy, K8SWD
                    • k8swd@frontier.com
                      Say you can t get a match on 30, tune on 15 then go back to 30 and try again. Can t match on 10, tune on 17 then go back. It makes the relays click a lot and
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 2, 2011
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                        Say you can't get a match on 30, tune on 15 then go back to 30 and try again. Can't match on 10, tune on 17 then go back. It makes the relays click a lot and sometimes will find a new solution rather than just use a convenient memory that may not be optimal. Rudy, K8SWD

                        Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect


                        From: "jsodus" <jsodus@...>
                        Sender: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:59:18 -0400
                        To: <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>
                        ReplyTo: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.

                         

                        Hi Rudy, you lost me with "..even band," and "...odd band...".
                        What is meant there?
                        73 Jerry KM3K

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Smartuners@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of k8swd@...
                        Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 10:30 PM
                        To: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better
                        than the unit noted below.

                        I am not familiar with the manual that cam with your coupler, but if you
                        have not downloaded and read the SGC-230 manual, please do so. Think or
                        your radial wires as a car and the vertical wire (driven) as the whip. The
                        bigger the metal coverage under your whip, the better the return path and
                        better your signal (of course there more to it than that). Why did you cut
                        radials the same length as your whip? It should NOT be a balanced antenna
                        (unless a loop). Even with a dipole with one of these couplers, have the -
                        end 5-10% longer than the + end.
                        Another technique you can do is what I call the "stepping stone" method of
                        tuning. If you can't get a good match on an even band, then go to an odd
                        band and tune, then return to a different spot on the even band and try
                        again. Depending on the coupler specs, anything under 1:7:1 swr is fine. If
                        your rig is cutting back below 2:1, then an adjustment should be made to it.
                        You don't need 1.1:1 on every frequency and to expect that on a such a
                        frequency agile antenna system, especially a short antenna, is wishful. It
                        is not a resonant system, but a compromise with the coupler filling in what
                        you have physically not provided.
                        It sounds like you are on your way to a pretty nice setup, but it just needs
                        a bit more under it and also maybe above it.
                        Rudy, K8SWD

                      • ncollova
                        Ok, Here is the latest. 1. ) I reduced the size length of the #6 wire from the ground of the coupler to the ground plate to about 3 from what was more than
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 3, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ok, Here is the latest.

                          1. ) I reduced the size length of the #6 wire from the ground of the coupler to the ground plate to about 3" from what was more than 12".

                          I checked the results. The coupler seemed to tune more consistently. and there is no apparent RFI.

                          2.) I then added about five feet of antenna bringing the total length to 34 ft and progressively cut away at it a several inches at a time.

                          The results varied. At the longer lengths 30M would tune but others would not. At the shorter length back down to the original 29 ft length I would have some bands that tuned and some that would not...

                          Sometime RFI on some bands and and sometimes not.

                          Basically no success

                          3.) Tonight I added 10 foot lengths to half of my radials and that is where I noticed the biggest difference.

                          All bands except 160M and 30M tune and tune well. Almost all tune very low. Still little to no RFI.

                          I believe the trend will continue if I add more length to the remaining radials and add more radials.

                          While I am still going to tinker with the length of the antenna and radials I believe I am almost there and definitely moving in the right direction.

                          All of the suggestions from this thread have had a positive effect on my setup and I appreciate all the advice.

                          Lastly, I got a big surprise tonight when I went up on the roof today. I noticed that I must have forgotten to strip the wire on my last try last night and attached the insulated wire to the coupler. It was after midnight and I was a bit tired from going up and down the ladder so many times.

                          The damn thing tuned up and I was able to make some European contacts before I went to bed. While it tuned up I had difficulty making copy on some of the countries that are usually very easy to reach.

                          I cant believe it.

                          Thanks to everybody and 73's

                          Nick
                          KC2OUV







                          --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, k8swd@... wrote:
                          >
                          > I am not familiar with the manual that cam with your coupler, but if you have not downloaded and read the SGC-230 manual, please do so. Think or your radial wires as a car and the vertical wire (driven) as the whip. The bigger the metal coverage under your whip, the better the return path and better your signal (of course there more to it than that). Why did you cut radials the same length as your whip? It should NOT be a balanced antenna (unless a loop). Even with a dipole with one of these couplers, have the - end 5-10% longer than the + end.
                          > Another technique you can do is what I call the "stepping stone" method of tuning. If you can't get a good match on an even band, then go to an odd band and tune, then return to a different spot on the even band and try again. Depending on the coupler specs, anything under 1:7:1 swr is fine. If your rig is cutting back below 2:1, then an adjustment should be made to it. You don't need 1.1:1 on every frequency and to expect that on a such a frequency agile antenna system, especially a short antenna, is wishful. It is not a resonant system, but a compromise with the coupler filling in what you have physically not provided.
                          > It sounds like you are on your way to a pretty nice setup, but it just needs a bit more under it and also maybe above it.
                          > Rudy, K8SWD
                          > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect
                          >
                        • Conor
                          ... Why have you been stripping the wire? There is no need to take insulation off save that which you need to make the connection at the tuner end. Insulated
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 7, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "ncollova" <collova@...> wrote:

                            > Lastly, I got a big surprise tonight when I went up on the roof today. I noticed that I must have forgotten to strip the wire on my last try last night and attached the insulated wire to the coupler. It was after midnight and I was a bit tired from going up and down the ladder so many times.
                            >

                            Why have you been stripping the wire? There is no need to take insulation off save that which you need to make the connection at the tuner end. Insulated wire will appear electrically 4% longer than uninsulated so its a way to get extra length for free.
                          • k8swd@frontier.com
                            Kidding right! The wire must be stripped of insulation before you can connect it to the coupler (regardless of connection)! Rudy, K8SWD Sent from my
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 7, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Kidding right! The wire must be stripped of insulation before you can connect it to the coupler (regardless of connection)! Rudy, K8SWD

                              Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect


                              From: "Conor" <conor_turton@...>
                              Sender: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 20:53:51 -0000
                              To: <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>
                              ReplyTo: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.

                               



                              --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "ncollova" <collova@...> wrote:

                              > Lastly, I got a big surprise tonight when I went up on the roof today. I noticed that I must have forgotten to strip the wire on my last try last night and attached the insulated wire to the coupler. It was after midnight and I was a bit tired from going up and down the ladder so many times.
                              >

                              Why have you been stripping the wire? There is no need to take insulation off save that which you need to make the connection at the tuner end. Insulated wire will appear electrically 4% longer than uninsulated so its a way to get extra length for free.

                            • kevin asato
                              The insulation just needs to be stripped back enough to connect to the coupler - I think it was how the message was written and interpreted that caused the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 7, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The insulation just needs to be stripped back enough to connect to the coupler - I think it was how the message was written and interpreted that caused the confusion. My guess.

                                73,
                                kevin
                                kc6pob

                                --- On Sun, 8/7/11, k8swd@... <k8swd@...> wrote:

                                From: k8swd@... <k8swd@...>
                                Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.
                                To: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, August 7, 2011, 4:00 PM

                                 

                                Kidding right! The wire must be stripped of insulation before you can connect it to the coupler (regardless of connection)! Rudy, K8SWD

                                Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect


                                From: "Conor" <conor_turton@...>
                                Sender: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 20:53:51 -0000
                                To: <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>
                                ReplyTo: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.

                                 



                                --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "ncollova" <collova@...> wrote:

                                > Lastly, I got a big surprise tonight when I went up on the roof today. I noticed that I must have forgotten to strip the wire on my last try last night and attached the insulated wire to the coupler. It was after midnight and I was a bit tired from going up and down the ladder so many times.
                                >

                                Why have you been stripping the wire? There is no need to take insulation off save that which you need to make the connection at the tuner end. Insulated wire will appear electrically 4% longer than uninsulated so its a way to get extra length for free.

                              • ncollova
                                You guys misunderstood It was only for the last adjustment after many trips to the roof that I neglected to strip the end of the wire. I was working in the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 8, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You guys misunderstood

                                  It was only for the last adjustment after many trips to the roof that I neglected to strip the end of the wire. I was working in the dark.

                                  Was just blown away that it tuned up let alone worked dx

                                  I noticed and fixed next day and all was well

                                  A combination of longer antenna and more and longer radials solved the problem as mentioned before

                                  Now tunes all but 30M well.

                                  --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, kevin asato <kc6pob@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The insulation just needs to be stripped back enough to connect to the coupler - I think it was how the message was written and interpreted that caused the confusion. My guess.
                                  > 73,kevinkc6pob
                                  >
                                  > --- On Sun, 8/7/11, k8swd@... <k8swd@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: k8swd@... <k8swd@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.
                                  > To: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Sunday, August 7, 2011, 4:00 PM
                                  >
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                                  >  
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                                  > Kidding right! The wire must be stripped of insulation before you can connect it to the coupler (regardless of connection)! Rudy, K8SWDSent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct ConnectFrom: "Conor" <conor_turton@...>
                                  > Sender: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 20:53:51 -0000To: <Smartuners@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: Smartuners@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Smartuners] Re: Help! Can an SGC unit tune my setup better than the unit noted below.
                                  >
                                  >  
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                                  > --- In Smartuners@yahoogroups.com, "ncollova" <collova@> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Lastly, I got a big surprise tonight when I went up on the roof today. I noticed that I must have forgotten to strip the wire on my last try last night and attached the insulated wire to the coupler. It was after midnight and I was a bit tired from going up and down the ladder so many times.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Why have you been stripping the wire? There is no need to take insulation off save that which you need to make the connection at the tuner end. Insulated wire will appear electrically 4% longer than uninsulated so its a way to get extra length for free.
                                  >
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