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Starter lightening trick

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  • Kev A
    Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I ve now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand. A friend has a cheap facility for making a
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 1, 2011
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      Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.

      A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.

      The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?

      Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums

      Cheers in hope someone can assist

      Kev
      (UK)
    • ron ohler
      Hi, Sorry but you can t replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other. Best, Ron O ... From:
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 1, 2011
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        Hi,
        Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
        Best,
        Ron O

        --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:


        From: Kev A <kevin@...>
        Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM



         



        Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.

        A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.

        The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?

        Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums

        Cheers in hope someone can assist

        Kev
        (UK)








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kev A
        Oh thanks Ron, you have saved me and others a lot of wasted time; does the steel have to be a certain bulk, or just a thin sheet in which case the idea still
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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          Oh thanks Ron, you have saved me and others a lot of wasted time; does the steel have to be a certain bulk, or just a thin sheet in which case the idea still has some merit?

          Did wonder why no-one else had tried this idea

          Kev



          --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          > Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
          > Best,
          > Ron O
          >
          > --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Kev A <kevin@...>
          > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
          > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.
          >
          > A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.
          >
          > The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?
          >
          > Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums
          >
          > Cheers in hope someone can assist
          >
          > Kev
          > (UK)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Kevin Armstrong
          Thanks Ron, got to keep coming up with ideas. My next task is discovering how to lighten the flywheel, and by how much Cheers
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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            Thanks Ron, got to keep coming up with ideas. My next task is discovering how to lighten the flywheel, and by how much



            Cheers





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            Kevin Armstrong

            Factory-Fit (UK) Limited

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            Mezzanine Floors, Stainless & Glass Balustrading, Feature Stairways

            108 Main Road, Newport, Brough, East Yorkshire, HU15 2RG



            Tel: 01430 449000

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            From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ron ohler
            Sent: 02 December 2011 00:05
            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick





            Hi,
            Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
            Best,
            Ron O

            --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@... <mailto:kevin%40factory-fit.com> > wrote:

            From: Kev A <kevin@... <mailto:kevin%40factory-fit.com> >
            Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM



            Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.

            A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.

            The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?

            Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums

            Cheers in hope someone can assist

            Kev
            (UK)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rick Martin
            Ron, Forgive me, as I am not a motor engineer, but are you sure about needing a steel housing? Ever since Airventure this year I ve been studying electric
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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              Ron,

              Forgive me, as I am not a motor engineer, but are you sure about needing a steel housing? Ever since Airventure this year I've been studying electric aircraft propulsion. An ultralight with two electric motors at the show really caught my attention. The motors were each 21 HP(?) (he de-rated it to 13HP) and weighed only 6.5lbs, mostly aluminum with copper coils (see Joby motor webpage below). That is awesome performance! I think the motor technology is already here, but I have some concern over the batteries yet. Maybe a few more years and they'll have the battery or fuel cell technology nailed down.

              But my point is that motor was a permanent magnet motor, not unlike what is commonly found in small engine starters. I not sure if Kev has permanent magnets or an electro-magnet field but I can't see what the difference would be. As long as the electro-magnet has an iron core I think it'll work regardless of the housing material.

              BTW, Here is a great web site on a very lightweight "Ironless permanent magnet brushless DC motor" from NASA >> http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2004/RS/RS08S-kascak2.html
              Joby motor web page >> http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php


              Rick



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: ron ohler
              To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 06:04
              Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick



              Hi,
              Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
              Best,
              Ron O

              --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:

              From: Kev A <kevin@...>
              Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
              To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM



              Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.

              A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.

              The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?

              Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums

              Cheers in hope someone can assist

              Kev
              (UK)





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mario Mohl
              Plenty electric motors in plastic casings around. Would that be a different type then? Maybe AC vs DC or sumtin? ... [Non-text portions of this message have
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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                Plenty electric motors in plastic casings around. Would that be a different
                type then? Maybe AC vs DC or sumtin?



                On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:05 AM, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:

                > Oh thanks Ron, you have saved me and others a lot of wasted time; does the
                > steel have to be a certain bulk, or just a thin sheet in which case the
                > idea still has some merit?
                >
                > Did wonder why no-one else had tried this idea
                >
                > Kev
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > > Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it
                > completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
                > > Best,
                > > Ron O
                > >
                > > --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > From: Kev A <kevin@...>
                > > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
                > > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Â
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock
                > on the bench but not with a starter to hand.
                > >
                > > A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel
                > casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your
                > views were.
                > >
                > > The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to
                > anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved
                > coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?
                > >
                > > Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums
                > >
                > > Cheers in hope someone can assist
                > >
                > > Kev
                > > (UK)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > ### Lets use this list to build a knowledge base for those who are
                > interested in flying with these engines. Don't forget you can search the
                > messages archive for past discussions. Please keep comments on subject.
                > Sorry, no attachments allowed.
                >
                > For access to the home page:
                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/<
                >
                > For direct access to the files area:
                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/files/<Yahoo! Groups
                > Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • ron ohler
                HI, It does need to have a certain thickness/area to conduct the magnetic flux needs. Don t really know the proper term needed to express what I m saying.
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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                  HI,
                  It does need to have a certain thickness/area to conduct the magnetic flux needs. Don't really know the proper term needed to express what I'm saying. I'm aware that it takes a certain amount of steel to conduct x amount of magnetisim. I have some data around here for making home brew electromagnets but cant say how that would correlate with an electric motor. I suppose you might be able to find it somewhere if you were to search long and hard enough.
                  Best,
                  Ron O

                  --- On Fri, 12/2/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:


                  From: Kev A <kevin@...>
                  Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Starter lightening trick
                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, December 2, 2011, 4:05 AM



                   



                  Oh thanks Ron, you have saved me and others a lot of wasted time; does the steel have to be a certain bulk, or just a thin sheet in which case the idea still has some merit?

                  Did wonder why no-one else had tried this idea

                  Kev

                  --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  > Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
                  > Best,
                  > Ron O
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Kev A <kevin@...>
                  > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
                  > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.
                  >
                  > A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.
                  >
                  > The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?
                  >
                  > Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums
                  >
                  > Cheers in hope someone can assist
                  >
                  > Kev
                  > (UK)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ron ohler
                  HI, I m pretty sure the plastic cased ones will have a ferrite type cylindrical field magnet. I could be wrong as I got my information some where I can t
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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                    HI,
                    I'm pretty sure the plastic cased ones will have a ferrite type cylindrical field magnet. I could be wrong as I got my information some where I can't confirm anymore. Wouldn't know who to blame for bad info.
                    Best,
                    Ron O

                    --- On Fri, 12/2/11, Mario Mohl <mario.mohl@...> wrote:


                    From: Mario Mohl <mario.mohl@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Starter lightening trick
                    To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, December 2, 2011, 11:57 AM



                     



                    Plenty electric motors in plastic casings around. Would that be a different
                    type then? Maybe AC vs DC or sumtin?

                    On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:05 AM, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:

                    > Oh thanks Ron, you have saved me and others a lot of wasted time; does the
                    > steel have to be a certain bulk, or just a thin sheet in which case the
                    > idea still has some merit?
                    >
                    > Did wonder why no-one else had tried this idea
                    >
                    > Kev
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi,
                    > > Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it
                    > completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
                    > > Best,
                    > > Ron O
                    > >
                    > > --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: Kev A <kevin@...>
                    > > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
                    > > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Â
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock
                    > on the bench but not with a starter to hand.
                    > >
                    > > A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel
                    > casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your
                    > views were.
                    > >
                    > > The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to
                    > anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved
                    > coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?
                    > >
                    > > Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums
                    > >
                    > > Cheers in hope someone can assist
                    > >
                    > > Kev
                    > > (UK)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    > ### Lets use this list to build a knowledge base for those who are
                    > interested in flying with these engines. Don't forget you can search the
                    > messages archive for past discussions. Please keep comments on subject.
                    > Sorry, no attachments allowed.
                    >
                    > For access to the home page:
                    > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/<
                    >
                    > For direct access to the files area:
                    > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/files/<Yahoo! Groups
                    > Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • E
                    HI Please remember how strong the magnets are.they have to be held firm or the housing will deform (egg shape). may cause dragging. E.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 3, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      HI Please remember how strong the magnets are.they have to be held firm or the housing will deform (egg shape). may cause dragging. E.

                      --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Kev A" <kevin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.
                      >
                      > A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.
                      >
                      > The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?
                      >
                      > Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums
                      >
                      > Cheers in hope someone can assist
                      >
                      > Kev
                      > (UK)
                      >
                    • Mike
                      Rick I agree we are still an order of magnitude away from realizing the storage power density needed for PRACTICAL electric flight, but steady advances
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 4, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Rick

                        I agree we are still an order of magnitude away from realizing the storage power density needed for PRACTICAL electric flight, but steady advances continue to be made and the horizon looks very bright. Yes, the motors and speed controllers are already there.

                        Propulsion and starter applications are fundamentally different. The difficulty with propulsion lies with the fact you must have a way to vary the power. Thus, these are normally brushless motors controlled by multi phase AC speed controllers. They have permanent magnets.

                        For a starter motor, you want DC since you want to feed this motor all the current it'll take. These are normally brushed and yes, they also have permanent magnets.

                        That said, brushless AC motors (even figuring in the losses of the controller) are more efficient than their brushed DC counterparts.

                        You COULD design a brushless AC starter motor. Any torque and speed may be arrived at through sizing and gearing, I'm not sure it's worth the complexity and price.

                        ...just my .02 cents

                        Mike Phillips


                        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Martin" <ricknsharons@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Ron,
                        >
                        > Forgive me, as I am not a motor engineer, but are you sure about needing a steel housing? Ever since Airventure this year I've been studying electric aircraft propulsion. An ultralight with two electric motors at the show really caught my attention. The motors were each 21 HP(?) (he de-rated it to 13HP) and weighed only 6.5lbs, mostly aluminum with copper coils (see Joby motor webpage below). That is awesome performance! I think the motor technology is already here, but I have some concern over the batteries yet. Maybe a few more years and they'll have the battery or fuel cell technology nailed down.
                        >
                        > But my point is that motor was a permanent magnet motor, not unlike what is commonly found in small engine starters. I not sure if Kev has permanent magnets or an electro-magnet field but I can't see what the difference would be. As long as the electro-magnet has an iron core I think it'll work regardless of the housing material.
                        >
                        > BTW, Here is a great web site on a very lightweight "Ironless permanent magnet brushless DC motor" from NASA >> http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2004/RS/RS08S-kascak2.html
                        > Joby motor web page >> http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php
                        >
                        >
                        > Rick
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: ron ohler
                        > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 06:04
                        > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        > Sorry but you can't replace the frame with aluminum. It is steel as it completes the magnetic flux from one feild pole to the other.
                        > Best,
                        > Ron O
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Kev A <kevin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Kev A <kevin@...>
                        > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Starter lightening trick
                        > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 8:22 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for the assistnace on bearings, I've now got a Briggs smallblock on the bench but not with a starter to hand.
                        >
                        > A friend has a cheap facility for making a copy of the outer steel casing in 6082 (T6) alloy, but there may be snags and I wondered what your views were.
                        >
                        > The diameter, length and metal thickness would be really helpful to anyone standing near one, plus is it straightforward to unbolt the curved coils inside the casing and swap them over into a billet machined one?
                        >
                        > Potential weight saving is quite good, according to some rough sums
                        >
                        > Cheers in hope someone can assist
                        >
                        > Kev
                        > (UK)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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