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RE: Small EFI

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  • Percy Wood
    Have you ever used Forth as a programming language?    Real kick to program with. But the real pits for the professionals to understand, George, as I
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2010
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      "Have you ever used 'Forth' as a programming language?    Real kick to program

      with."
      But the real pits for the professionals to understand, George, as I recall.
      BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) was invented in the early 1960's by two guys at Dartmouth.  It is available on the PIC microprocessors, and I have seen it used in "embedded" applications where the application flew in a plane.
                       Percy in SE Bama





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bill
      I actually avoid learning languages. In the middle of my B.S. classes shifted from C++ to Java. I guess it forced me to put more effort into being concious
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 2010
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        I actually avoid learning languages. In the middle of my B.S. classes shifted from C++ to Java. I guess it forced me to put more effort into being concious of whether I was writing a DLL or a an object for the compiler, but I had to have the book next to me at all times. Like getting Spanish and Italian mixed up only the person you're talking to just shuts up when you do. Or rants a blue streak of Errors.

        The major issue with engine control is heartyness of the chip/circuitry. I haven't done the research, but you may find that EMF or vibration is less a problem with older higher voltage chips (5v being the standard before I think the i486). My gut instinct is that the absolute minimum of memory, program size, and CPU power is safest, even dismissing the possibility of bad programming.

        With memory on the chip and maybe some on the board, you absolutely want to know you're keeping the functionality of the engine in the chip if you can. That way, the circuitry to extra memory can't cause failure. This is one of the reasons why the lower the level you're writing to, the better.

        Bill

        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Percy Wood <pwood2128h@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Have you ever used 'Forth' as a programming language?    Real kick to program
        >
        > with."
        > But the real pits for the professionals to understand, George, as I recall.
        > BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) was invented in the early 1960's by two guys at Dartmouth.  It is available on the PIC microprocessors, and I have seen it used in "embedded" applications where the application flew in a plane.
        >                  Percy in SE Bama
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Bill
        Hey Bob, It s good to see someone getting into the nuts and volts. If I were ever to let a chip control stuff, I d take it a step further. When your engine
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 3, 2010
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          Hey Bob,

          It's good to see someone getting into the nuts and volts. If I were ever to let a chip control stuff, I'd take it a step further. When your engine dies in a car, you lose the power steering, but you can still move the wheel. How 'bout mechanical injection with a servo controlling the knob? With dual plugs, one set fired by the box, one on a mag? I wouldn't think for a second that "this thing never ever quits". I just try like hell to not give it any more reasons to. There is stuff (EMF, heat, shock/impact, etc.) that will make any number of chips fail at the same time. Still, if the sky's the limit, have a GPU and CPU doing esoteric IA on monitored input and control, the PIC as an electronic default, and, yeah for me atleast, mechanical everything if all else fails.

          Bill

          --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "bbtapb" <bbtapb@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm more of the RAID mindset than the AS/400 mindset. That is, go reasonably cheap but provide for "what happens when it breaks" rather than "keep it simple; this thing never ever quits".
          >
          > So, PIC and BASIC..sure, but two of them with the ability to run on either. Probably combine them at the injector signal with simple diodes.
          > Bob
          >
          > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <reflexbill@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > I actually avoid learning languages. In the middle of my B.S. classes shifted from C++ to Java. I guess it forced me to put more effort into being concious of whether I was writing a DLL or a an object for the compiler, but I had to have the book next to me at all times. Like getting Spanish and Italian mixed up only the person you're talking to just shuts up when you do. Or rants a blue streak of Errors.
          > >
          > > The major issue with engine control is heartyness of the chip/circuitry. I haven't done the research, but you may find that EMF or vibration is less a problem with older higher voltage chips (5v being the standard before I think the i486). My gut instinct is that the absolute minimum of memory, program size, and CPU power is safest, even dismissing the possibility of bad programming.
          > >
          > > With memory on the chip and maybe some on the board, you absolutely want to know you're keeping the functionality of the engine in the chip if you can. That way, the circuitry to extra memory can't cause failure. This is one of the reasons why the lower the level you're writing to, the better.
          > >
          > > Bill
          > >
          > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Percy Wood <pwood2128h@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > "Have you ever used 'Forth' as a programming language?    Real kick to program
          > > >
          > > > with."
          > > > But the real pits for the professionals to understand, George, as I recall.
          > > > BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) was invented in the early 1960's by two guys at Dartmouth.  It is available on the PIC microprocessors, and I have seen it used in "embedded" applications where the application flew in a plane.
          > > >                  Percy in SE Bama
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Peter Walker
          Hello  Heard of risk analysis? MTBF? fail modes? Risk analysis If this fails what happens? an engine out you land soon a spar fails and you crash very soon
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 3, 2010
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            Hello
             Heard of risk analysis? MTBF? fail modes?
            Risk analysis
            If this fails what happens? an engine out you land soon a spar fails and you crash very soon
            MTBF
            mean time between failure
            How many are used and how many fail (not wear out and change at service)
            a hire shop has 50 generacs and average 500 hours a year and lose a coil once a year (3 in 3 years) is one coil every 25000hours So on average you need to fly 250 years to lose a coil 50 hrs per year
            Fail modes
            Lose a coil you lose power and look for a place to land you are still flying Lose an ignition system and look to land NOW!!
            Failure analysis
            Why did it fail? How can i make it less likely to fail? Can I make if fail in a manageable way? Is the backup likely to suffer the same mode of failure (vibration voltage heat)?
            Peter




            --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Bill <reflexbill@...> wrote:

            From: Bill <reflexbill@...>
            Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Small EFI
            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 11:45 AM







             









            Hey Bob,



            It's good to see someone getting into the nuts and volts. If I were ever to let a chip control stuff, I'd take it a step further. When your engine dies in a car, you lose the power steering, but you can still move the wheel. How 'bout mechanical injection with a servo controlling the knob? With dual plugs, one set fired by the box, one on a mag? I wouldn't think for a second that "this thing never ever quits". I just try like hell to not give it any more reasons to. There is stuff (EMF, heat, shock/impact, etc.) that will make any number of chips fail at the same time. Still, if the sky's the limit, have a GPU and CPU doing esoteric IA on monitored input and control, the PIC as an electronic default, and, yeah for me atleast, mechanical everything if all else fails.



            Bill



            --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "bbtapb" <bbtapb@...> wrote:

            >

            > I'm more of the RAID mindset than the AS/400 mindset. That is, go reasonably cheap but provide for "what happens when it breaks" rather than "keep it simple; this thing never ever quits".

            >

            > So, PIC and BASIC..sure, but two of them with the ability to run on either. Probably combine them at the injector signal with simple diodes.

            > Bob

            >

            > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <reflexbill@> wrote:

            > >

            > >

            > > I actually avoid learning languages. In the middle of my B.S. classes shifted from C++ to Java. I guess it forced me to put more effort into being concious of whether I was writing a DLL or a an object for the compiler, but I had to have the book next to me at all times. Like getting Spanish and Italian mixed up only the person you're talking to just shuts up when you do. Or rants a blue streak of Errors.

            > >

            > > The major issue with engine control is heartyness of the chip/circuitry. I haven't done the research, but you may find that EMF or vibration is less a problem with older higher voltage chips (5v being the standard before I think the i486). My gut instinct is that the absolute minimum of memory, program size, and CPU power is safest, even dismissing the possibility of bad programming.

            > >

            > > With memory on the chip and maybe some on the board, you absolutely want to know you're keeping the functionality of the engine in the chip if you can. That way, the circuitry to extra memory can't cause failure. This is one of the reasons why the lower the level you're writing to, the better.

            > >

            > > Bill

            > >

            > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Percy Wood <pwood2128h@> wrote:

            > > >

            > > > "Have you ever used 'Forth' as a programming language?    Real kick to program

            > > >

            > > > with."

            > > > But the real pits for the professionals to understand, George, as I recall.

            > > > BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) was invented in the early 1960's by two guys at Dartmouth.  It is available on the PIC microprocessors, and I have seen it used in "embedded" applications where the application flew in a plane.

            > > >                  Percy in SE Bama

            > > >

            > > >

            > > >

            > > >

            > > >

            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            > > >

            > >

            >






















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Percy Wood
            I really had to be computer language agnostic, Bill.  I programmed in what the client told my company they wanted the code in. You probably should look at the
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 3, 2010
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              I really had to be computer language agnostic, Bill.  I programmed in what the client told my company they wanted the code in.

              You probably should look at the microcontrollers.  I studied PIC for a while for an angle of attack system that a friend was building.  They had machine language, of course, plus C (not C++ or C#).  And a BASIC, which I thought would stand the test of time better. 

              Percy in SE Bama






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • George Bearden
              ... still move the wheel. How bout mechanical injection with a servo controlling the knob? I was envisioning a system that uses the carb for a throttle body.
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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                > When your engine dies in a car, you lose the power steering, but you can
                still move the wheel. How 'bout mechanical injection with a servo
                controlling the knob?

                I was envisioning a system that uses the carb for a throttle body. If the
                EFI fails, just turn the fuel on to the carb float bowl, and away you go.
                Some types of systems do not even need the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) on
                the carb. I am gathering info on the 555-timer based EFI, I am interested in
                seeing it work. Some folks are flying on it. It is a natural for an
                over-ride knob for the mixture. But it wouldn't be functional if the EFI
                failed. But the carb would if you had time to get the float chambers full of
                fuel before the earth rises up to smite thee.

                I know that there are a number of mechanical injection system designs in
                existence but I know nothing of them. Can't add anything. They inject fuel
                under pressure I assume? They use a flapper valve like Bosch? Bosch DID make
                a mechanical system didn't they, before the Jetronic? I think somebody
                adapted a Bosch system to aircraft.... hmmm..



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jwmoon69
                GeoB wrote: ...it wouldn t be functional if the EFI failed. But the carb would if you had time to get the float chambers full of fuel before the earth rises up
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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                  GeoB wrote:
                  ...it wouldn't be functional if the EFI failed. But the carb would if you had time to get the float chambers full of fuel before the earth rises up to smite thee.

                  My reply:
                  A mechanical fuel primer should allow the pilot to keep the engine running for the short period of time it would take for the carburetor float bowl to fill. Don'cha think so?

                  Jsck
                • George Bearden
                  ... for the short period of time it would take for the carburetor float bowl to fill. Don cha think so? Well, yeah, now that you mention it. I have just never
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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                    > A mechanical fuel primer should allow the pilot to keep the engine running
                    for the short period of time it would take for the carburetor float bowl to
                    fill. Don'cha think so?

                    Well, yeah, now that you mention it. I have just never been around fuel
                    primers before and I just didn't flash on it. Group synergy is a wonderful
                    thing. But really we are mostly talking about the time it takes for the
                    pilot to realize he needs to turn the fuel on I think. Will the prop be wind
                    milling? If so, once the fuel is turned on it will be just a few seconds
                    till the engine starts and runs off the carb.

                    GeoB



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Peter Walker
                    Hello  Im all for safety Even redundancy has its place. Do some checks on just how long in the heat of an engine out you have to Work out what F.... has
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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                      Hello
                       Im all for safety Even redundancy has its place. Do some checks on just how long in the heat of an engine out you have to
                      Work out what F.... has happenedTried to restart hoping its just a blipChange to both redundant systems
                       Prime and startAll the time having to stay in control of of dead stick landing (if the restart fails) and not stall and I guess at 500'AGL (slow and low) tick Tick TIck TICk TICK.......
                      Peter





                      --- On Fri, 11/5/10, jwmoon69 <jackmoon1@...> wrote:

                      From: jwmoon69 <jackmoon1@...>
                      Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Small EFI
                      To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 8:31 AM







                       









                      GeoB wrote:

                      ...it wouldn't be functional if the EFI failed. But the carb would if you had time to get the float chambers full of fuel before the earth rises up to smite thee.



                      My reply:

                      A mechanical fuel primer should allow the pilot to keep the engine running for the short period of time it would take for the carburetor float bowl to fill. Don'cha think so?



                      Jsck






















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • mike_main@juno.com
                      George, If the EFI system used a carb for a throttle body, a preflight action could be to switch over and run the carb briefly to full the float bowl and do a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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                        George,
                        If the EFI system used a carb for a throttle body, a preflight action could be to switch over and run the carb briefly to full the float bowl and do a run-up check, and then go back to the primary EFI system. If you were to use the same high pressure EFI pump with the carb, it would need a pressure regulator. When the racket maker up front gets quiet, anything that gives you an option if you have the time and presence of mind is a comfort. My friend was a crew chief on a F-4 and some critical systems were 400% redundant, and 300% was a no-go. Talk about a long checklist if something quit in flight! Your idea is interesting. Hope that you find out more.

                        mike...in Los Angeles

                        ---------- Original Message ----------
                        From: "George Bearden" <gab16@...>
                        To: <Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Small EFI
                        Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 12:54:22 -0700


                        > When your engine dies in a car, you lose the power steering, but you can
                        still move the wheel. How 'bout mechanical injection with a servo
                        controlling the knob?

                        I was envisioning a system that uses the carb for a throttle body. If the
                        EFI fails, just turn the fuel on to the carb float bowl, and away you go.
                        Some types of systems do not even need the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) on
                        the carb. I am gathering info on the 555-timer based EFI, I am interested in
                        seeing it work. Some folks are flying on it. It is a natural for an
                        over-ride knob for the mixture. But it wouldn't be functional if the EFI
                        failed. But the carb would if you had time to get the float chambers full of
                        fuel before the earth rises up to smite thee.

                        I know that there are a number of mechanical injection system designs in
                        existence but I know nothing of them. Can't add anything. They inject fuel
                        under pressure I assume? They use a flapper valve like Bosch? Bosch DID make
                        a mechanical system didn't they, before the Jetronic? I think somebody
                        adapted a Bosch system to aircraft.... hmmm..

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • George Bearden
                        ... Yes. I visualize starting and warmup on the carbs maybe. Shut the fuel off, wait for the lean stumble then hit the EFI switch. Check the EGT or wideband O2
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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                          > a preflight action could be to switch over and run the carb briefly

                          Yes. I visualize starting and warmup on the carbs maybe. Shut the fuel off,
                          wait for the lean stumble then hit the EFI switch. Check the EGT or wideband
                          O2 sensor for rich mixture, adjust as necessary for TO.

                          The system I am thinking of runs individual injectors near the head. One
                          could go TBI but probably wouldn't.

                          I don't know what the future holds, or how well my Generac will push my Kolb
                          Firestar, but I think about a lean cruise mode afforded by an adjustable
                          EFI, an adjustable spark and a wide-band O2 sensor. You can do this with the
                          EGT and no mixture gage or spark adjust, but I like dials, gages, buttons,
                          knobs, lights, meters and stuff.

                          > If you were to use the same high pressure EFI pump with the carb

                          Prolly seek redundancy here too.

                          > anything that gives you an option if you have the time and presence of
                          mind is a comfort.

                          Hmmm... yeah.. let's cut back on pilot load in the emergency... When you
                          toggle the EFI switch it turns on the fuel flow to the carb? That's another
                          gadget to fail though. Hmmmm.. but the flow to the carb can be 'normally
                          open' so if power fails, or you toggle the EFI switch, it will turn the
                          carbs on with no pilot input. Maybe even switch to the carbs if certain
                          conditions exist, like no fuel pressure, etc.

                          The EFI is mostly separate, one for each cylinder. Air flow sensor I expect
                          to be used by both cylinder's EFI system. Wonder what kind of power the
                          Generac will make on one cylinder? Yeah, I know, enough to get me to the
                          crash site.
                        • Tony Fairbridge
                          The pilot, if he/she is thinking right, will be busy flying the aircraft. A mechanical fuel primer is the very last thing they ll want to spend time on, and if
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 5, 2010
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                            The pilot, if he/she is thinking right, will be busy flying the aircraft. A
                            mechanical fuel primer is the very last thing they'll want to spend time on,
                            and if they persist in doing so it may well be. Remember the first and only
                            law when the fan stops. "first, fly the airplane!"
                            Tony F.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Bearden
                            Sent: Friday, 5 November 2010 8:54 AM
                            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Small EFI

                            > A mechanical fuel primer should allow the pilot to keep the engine running
                            for the short period of time it would take for the carburetor float bowl to
                            fill. Don'cha think so?

                            Well, yeah, now that you mention it. I have just never been around fuel
                            primers before and I just didn't flash on it. Group synergy is a wonderful
                            thing. But really we are mostly talking about the time it takes for the
                            pilot to realize he needs to turn the fuel on I think. Will the prop be wind
                            milling? If so, once the fuel is turned on it will be just a few seconds
                            till the engine starts and runs off the carb.

                            GeoB



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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