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chain redrive

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  • garywolf@rogers.com
    One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank.
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 15, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side.

      At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks.

      Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there.

      Gary Wolf



      --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
      > Thanks Larry.
      >
      >
      > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it
      > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing
      > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
      > >
      > > Norm Heistand my .02
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine.
      > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine?
      > > >
      > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build
      > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop??
      > > >
      > > > Any thoughts about this??
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • larrymalone2000
      The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 15, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly successfully.

        The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, and interestingly, burned acetylene.

        Larry

        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, garywolf@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side.
        >
        > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks.
        >
        > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there.
        >
        > Gary Wolf
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
        > > Thanks Larry.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it
        > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing
        > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
        > > >
        > > > Norm Heistand my .02
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > **
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine.
        > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine?
        > > > >
        > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build
        > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop??
        > > > >
        > > > > Any thoughts about this??
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • garywolf@rogers.com
        Larry, If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle where
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 15, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Larry,
          If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the engine.

          Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.

          Gary Wolf

          --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly successfully.
          >
          > The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, and interestingly, burned acetylene.
          >
          > Larry
          >
          > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side.
          > >
          > > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks.
          > >
          > > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there.
          > >
          > > Gary Wolf
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
          > > > Thanks Larry.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it
          > > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing
          > > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
          > > > >
          > > > > Norm Heistand my .02
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > **
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine.
          > > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build
          > > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop??
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Any thoughts about this??
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • George Bearden
          Chains have both an rpm and torque (tension) spec. Thus in addition to the hp rating these other ratings must be considered.
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 15, 2013
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            Chains have both an rpm and torque (tension) spec. Thus in addition to the hp rating these other ratings must be considered.

          • George Bearden
            ... It didn t have a carb, it had a heated plate. They dripped gasoline down on to it and the vapor was drawn into the engine. They discovered that the engine
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 15, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              > If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine

              It didn't have a carb, it had a heated plate. They dripped gasoline down on to it and the vapor was drawn into the engine. They discovered that the engine was not running correctly when they did their first successful flight, it was down about 50% hp.

            • Mckee, Don - Contractor {QUAKER}
              Not only was their engine what we would consider dangerous, I believe that the stall speed of the Wright Flyer was in the low 20 s and the VNE was in the high
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 16, 2013
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                Not only was their engine what we would consider dangerous, I believe that the stall speed of the Wright Flyer was in the low 20’s and the VNE was in the high 20’s.  Not much room for error with first time pilots.

                Don

                 

                From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gypsyinvader
                Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:34 AM
                To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                 

                 

                I love this historical stuff! It makes their achievement even more incredible... Can you picture a modern ultralighter putting up with such? We whine when the modern two-stroke or four-stroke isn't 100% reliable. Previous generations were hardier folk, no doubts! That heated plate must have made cross winds a whole new element. :-)
                Garry

                --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "George Bearden" <gab16@...> wrote:
                >
                > > If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine
                >
                > It didn't have a carb, it had a heated plate. They dripped gasoline down on
                > to it and the vapor was drawn into the engine. They discovered that the
                > engine was not running correctly when they did their first successful
                > flight, it was down about 50% hp.
                >

              • George Bearden
                Even the jenny had a very narrow performance envelope. _____ From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 16, 2013
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                  Even the jenny had a very narrow performance envelope.

                   


                  From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mckee, Don - Contractor {QUAKER}
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:29 AM
                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                   

                   

                  Not only was their engine what we would consider dangerous, I believe that the stall speed of the Wright Flyer was in the low 20’s and the VNE was in the high 20’s.  Not much room for error with first time pilots.

                  Don

                   

                  From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of gypsyinvader
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:34 AM
                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                   

                   

                  I love this historical stuff! It makes their achievement even more incredible... Can you picture a modern ultralighter putting up with such? We whine when the modern two-stroke or four-stroke isn't 100% reliable. Previous generations were hardier folk, no doubts! That heated plate must have made cross winds a whole new element. :-)
                  Garry

                  --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "George Bearden" <gab16@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > > If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine
                  >
                  > It didn't have a carb, it had a heated plate. They dripped gasoline down
                  on
                  > to it and the vapor was drawn into the engine. They discovered that the
                  > engine was not running correctly when they did their first successful
                  > flight, it was down about 50% hp.
                  >

                • Larry Malone
                  When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see attachment) Is this what
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 16, 2013
                  When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from bouncing around.
                   
                  Larry


                  From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                  Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                   
                  Larry,
                  If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the engine.

                  Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.

                  Gary Wolf

                  --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly successfully.
                  >
                  > The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                  >
                  > Larry
                  >
                  > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side.
                  > >
                  > > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks.
                  > >
                  > > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there.
                  > >
                  > > Gary Wolf
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                  > > > Thanks Larry.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it
                  > > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing
                  > > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > **
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine.
                  > > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build
                  > > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop??
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >



                • woody king
                  I know from a few years as a motorcycle mechanic that all cam chain tensioners were built with a dampening slipper on the loaded side, and the tensioner
                  Message 9 of 29 , Jul 16, 2013
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                    I know from a few years as a motorcycle mechanic that all cam chain tensioners were built with a dampening slipper on the loaded side, and the tensioner slipper on the slack side. Honda had major trouble with certain models' camchains. The manually adjusted worked great, as long as adjusted often. The hydraulic tensioners had much trouble until they added a "one way mechanism" that let the hydraulic pressure from the oil take up the slack, but the tensioner was but with a one way cam on the hydraulic rod so that it locked at that setting. So, each time the engine started, there was no slack while waiting on oil pressure. And, any slack was taken out instantly by the oil pressure. Prior to that, a spring took up the slack when manually loosened, which meant unless the owner knew where to position the engine and did the procedure often, the chain would "slap".  The death of many good motors was due to the timing chain wearing a hole completely through the housing after beating the tensioner to death.       Woody 

                    From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                    To: "Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com" <Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:49 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [1 Attachment]
                     
                    When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from bouncing around.
                     
                    Larry

                    From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                    To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                    Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                     
                    Larry, If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the engine. Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin. Gary Wolf --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@...> wrote: > > The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly successfully. > > The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, and interestingly, burned acetylene. > > Larry > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote: > > > > > > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side. > > > > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks. > > > > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there. > > > > Gary Wolf > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly? > > > Thanks Larry. > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it > > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing > > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft. > > > > > > > > Norm Heistand my .02 > > > > > > > > > >
                    > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine. > > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine? > > > > > > > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build > > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop?? > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts about this?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                  • George Bearden
                    ... tensioners were built with a dampening slipper on the loaded side Honda and Toyota have been using the cam chain slipper thingee for prolly more than 50
                    Message 10 of 29 , Jul 16, 2013
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                      > I know from a few years as a motorcycle mechanic that all cam chain tensioners were built with a dampening slipper on the loaded side

                       

                      Honda and Toyota have been using the cam chain slipper thingee for prolly more than 50 years.

                       

                      Very very slightly on-topic, just a toe-hold really:

                      I bought a Celica at an auction really cheap. The engine was frozen. I tore it down. There was a thick black sludge in the engine, no liquid oil. Tried to scrape it out. It was weird, it was black but the places where I scraped looked white. I tasted it. It was sugar. I had all the rod caps off, all the main caps off but one. Put a really long cheater on the front nut, couldn't budge it with all my weight. Stuck really tight. I managed to get it all apart with some effort, cleaned and examined all the parts. Everything was good to go except the hydraulic piston of the cam chain tensioner. It looked like the piston had been oscillating back and forth within the cylinder and wore itself out. I could have simply reassembled the engine after replacing the piston but chose to freshen it up 1st. Ran great. Very nice car. Great deal. Papers in the glove box indicated a nasty divorce. I'm thinking some woman got her ex really ticked.

                    • Alan Muller
                      The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed like the obvious way to go. And it probably was for their design--high efficiency and
                      Message 11 of 29 , Jul 18, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to maximize static thrust/hp.

                        At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote:
                         
                        [Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below]

                        When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from bouncing around.
                         
                        Larry


                        From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                        Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                         
                        Larry,
                        If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the engine.

                        Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.

                        Gary Wolf

                        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly successfully.
                        >
                        > The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                        >
                        > Larry
                        >
                        > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side.
                        > >
                        > > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks.
                        > >
                        > > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there.
                        > >
                        > > Gary Wolf
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                        > > > Thanks Larry.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it
                        > > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing
                        > > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > **
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine.
                        > > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build
                        > > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop??
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >



                      • Larry Malone
                        As long as we are going to continue this topic.  Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the
                        Message 12 of 29 , Jul 18, 2013
                        As long as we are going to continue this topic. 
                        Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive. 
                          But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive. 
                          Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this. 
                          If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men.

                        I went on too long, didn't I
                        Larry


                        From: Alan Muller <alan@...>
                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                         
                        The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to maximize static thrust/hp.

                        At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote:
                         
                        [Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below]

                        When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from bouncing around.
                         
                        Larry


                        From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                        Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                         
                        Larry,
                        If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the engine.

                        Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.

                        Gary Wolf

                        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They managed to fly successfully.
                        >
                        > The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                        >
                        > Larry
                        >
                        > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on the tension side.
                        > >
                        > > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, just before something breaks.
                        > >
                        > > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity does the damping there.
                        > >
                        > > Gary Wolf
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                        > > > Thanks Larry.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand <nheistand@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. I drill 6 holes in it
                        > > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The sprocket uses an SH bushing
                        > > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa <lisa4682@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > **
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda engine.
                        > > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the crank out of the engine?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type of engine or can I build
                        > > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a prop??
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >





                      • Tony Cortez
                        I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                        Message 13 of 29 , Jul 20, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                           
                          Tony
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Art
                          Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 3:08 AM
                          Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                           

                          Same question here. I have chain driven camshafts in my 7800 rpm engine which is pretty quiet as small engines go. It does have hydraulic tensioners and sliders.

                          Art

                          From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Mazzoline
                          Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:59 PM
                          To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                           

                          Iv been peeking at this from a distance. But I have a question. You say a chain at 3600 rpm is trouble.  Well I'm thinking a timing chain on a V-8 spins faster than that, albeit not spinning a big prop.

                          On Jul 19, 2013, at 10:02 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:



                           

                          Hi,

                          I used to use a lithium base grease to boil my motor cycle chains in. I had a 1961 Harley Sprint and then a total of 4 1966 -1968 Suzuki X-6 Hustlers. Still have the Suzuki's.

                          I did some consulting at an alternative energy company that tried chain drive on a engine driven generator. Never again.

                          Chain drive is what it is. Best left for low speed operation. Anyone can look up various manufacturers of chain and their design criteria. Chain speed wrapping around a sprocket at 3600 rpm is going to create some serious issues. Go ahead and spend the money on all the parts and build it. You'll see - and hear - why it is not a good idea. Might not run it long enough to even deal with the maintenance issues.

                          Best,

                          RonO

                          From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                          To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:18 AM
                          Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive

                           

                          I have an old-fashioned recommendation I have used, and it works great. Put the chain in a pot with enough blocks of canning paraffin to cover when melted and heat it up. When all is melted and soaked in take the chain out and let it drain. When cooled go along and break the links loose and install. No more oiling, no oil spray, no rusting. That is early bicycle practice proven over time. I used it on ten-speed bikes to Harly Davidson bikes...
                          Garry

                          --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          > Have you ridden a chain drive motorcycle? Ever dealt with the constant maintenance? Oil slinging off? Noise and vibration? They put vibration dampeners in the drive hub for a reason. Are you going to do that with a plane's redrive?
                          > Best,
                          > RonO
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                          > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:15 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > And the engines they used had much lower HP and much slower RPM. 
                          >   A gokart chain definitely wouldn't work on a 50HP aircraft engine or even a twin honda. But, it might work on a 212cc predator hopped up to 12HP. I'm going to give it a shot. Not in the air. But on a sled of some sort. You can get a full 12HP without going over 3600RPM. 12HP isn't alot but it would be good for a para. I put a racing centrifugal clutch on it. Then the engine could be hand started without turning the prop. If two of these engines were used on a light weight UL, that would be 24HP. Still not a lot of HP, but enough. The advantage of using two small engines instead of one (like the Lazair) is if one engine goes out, level flight can be maintained with the other. With a centrifugal clutch the engine that is stalled will freewheel. The biggest advantage is money. Two 212cc engines hopped up, would be less than half the price of a Honda twin out of the box.  
                          >   On the the other hand I could just use a double belt centrifugal clutch too and not experiment.
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                          > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:48 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >  
                          > Hi,
                          > What must be remembered is that belt technology was still in it's infancy. We're talking cotton and rubber. Not some of the later elastomers and Kevlar. Chain was a known and understood product but with some significant limitations. It certainly is not the preferred product for a prop reduction drive at this time.
                          > Best,
                          > RonO
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                          > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:27 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [2 Attachments]
                          >
                          >  
                          > As long as we are going to continue this topic. 
                          > Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive. 
                          >   But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive. 
                          >   Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this. 
                          >   If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men.
                          >
                          > I went on too long, didn't I
                          > Larry
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Alan Muller <alan@...>
                          > To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                          >
                          >  
                          > The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed
                          > like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their
                          > design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on
                          > the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its
                          > motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational
                          > propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and
                          > figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to
                          > maximize static thrust/hp.
                          > At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote:
                          >  
                          > >[Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below]
                          > >
                          > >When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and
                          > a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see
                          > attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from
                          > bouncing around.
                          > > 
                          > >Larry
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                          > >To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                          > >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                          > >Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >Larry,
                          > >If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props
                          > chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle
                          > where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain
                          > does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the
                          > engine.
                          > >
                          > >Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which
                          > has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.
                          > >
                          > >Gary Wolf
                          > >
                          > >--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                          > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving
                          > two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They
                          > managed to fly successfully.
                          > >>
                          > >> The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead,
                          > used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big
                          > they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too,
                          > and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                          > >>
                          > >> Larry
                          > >>
                          > >> --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a
                          > standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either
                          > break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam
                          > chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or
                          > roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on
                          > the tension side.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush
                          > hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who
                          > had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about
                          > the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound,
                          > just before something breaks.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the
                          > dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive
                          > of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity
                          > does the damping there.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Gary Wolf
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                          > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid
                          > buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait
                          > forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how
                          > to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                          > >> > > Thanks Larry.
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand
                          > <nheistand@> wrote:
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth.
                          > I drill 6 holes in it
                          > >> > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The
                          > sprocket uses an SH bushing
                          > >> > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa
                          > <lisa4682@> wrote:
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > > **
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda
                          > engine.
                          > >> > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the
                          > crank out of the engine?
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type
                          > of engine or can I build
                          > >> > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a
                          > prop??
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> >
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • ron ohler
                          In an oil bath. ________________________________ From: Tony Cortez To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013
                          Message 14 of 29 , Jul 20, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In an oil bath.

                            From: Tony Cortez <tonico222@...>
                            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 6:45 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                             
                            I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                             
                            Tony
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Art
                            Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 3:08 AM
                            Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                             
                            Same question here. I have chain driven camshafts in my 7800 rpm engine which is pretty quiet as small engines go. It does have hydraulic tensioners and sliders.
                            Art
                            From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Mazzoline
                            Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:59 PM
                            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                             
                            Iv been peeking at this from a distance. But I have a question. You say a chain at 3600 rpm is trouble.  Well I'm thinking a timing chain on a V-8 spins faster than that, albeit not spinning a big prop.
                            On Jul 19, 2013, at 10:02 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:


                             
                            Hi,
                            I used to use a lithium base grease to boil my motor cycle chains in. I had a 1961 Harley Sprint and then a total of 4 1966 -1968 Suzuki X-6 Hustlers. Still have the Suzuki's.
                            I did some consulting at an alternative energy company that tried chain drive on a engine driven generator. Never again.
                            Chain drive is what it is. Best left for low speed operation. Anyone can look up various manufacturers of chain and their design criteria. Chain speed wrapping around a sprocket at 3600 rpm is going to create some serious issues. Go ahead and spend the money on all the parts and build it. You'll see - and hear - why it is not a good idea. Might not run it long enough to even deal with the maintenance issues.
                            Best,
                            RonO
                            From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                            To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:18 AM
                            Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                             
                            I have an old-fashioned recommendation I have used, and it works great. Put the chain in a pot with enough blocks of canning paraffin to cover when melted and heat it up. When all is melted and soaked in take the chain out and let it drain. When cooled go along and break the links loose and install. No more oiling, no oil spray, no rusting. That is early bicycle practice proven over time. I used it on ten-speed bikes to Harly Davidson bikes...
                            Garry

                            --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            > Have you ridden a chain drive motorcycle? Ever dealt with the constant maintenance? Oil slinging off? Noise and vibration? They put vibration dampeners in the drive hub for a reason. Are you going to do that with a plane's redrive?
                            > Best,
                            > RonO
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                            > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:15 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            > And the engines they used had much lower HP and much slower RPM. 
                            >   A gokart chain definitely wouldn't work on a 50HP aircraft engine or even a twin honda. But, it might work on a 212cc predator hopped up to 12HP. I'm going to give it a shot. Not in the air. But on a sled of some sort. You can get a full 12HP without going over 3600RPM. 12HP isn't alot but it would be good for a para. I put a racing centrifugal clutch on it. Then the engine could be hand started without turning the prop. If two of these engines were used on a light weight UL, that would be 24HP. Still not a lot of HP, but enough. The advantage of using two small engines instead of one (like the Lazair) is if one engine goes out, level flight can be maintained with the other. With a centrifugal clutch the engine that is stalled will freewheel. The biggest advantage is money. Two 212cc engines hopped up, would be less than half the price of a Honda twin out of the box.  
                            >   On the the other hand I could just use a double belt centrifugal clutch too and not experiment.
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                            > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:48 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >  
                            > Hi,
                            > What must be remembered is that belt technology was still in it's infancy. We're talking cotton and rubber. Not some of the later elastomers and Kevlar. Chain was a known and understood product but with some significant limitations. It certainly is not the preferred product for a prop reduction drive at this time.
                            > Best,
                            > RonO
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                            > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:27 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [2 Attachments]
                            >
                            >  
                            > As long as we are going to continue this topic. 
                            > Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive. 
                            >   But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive. 
                            >   Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this. 
                            >   If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men.
                            >
                            > I went on too long, didn't I
                            > Larry
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Alan Muller <alan@...>
                            > To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                            >
                            >  
                            > The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed
                            > like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their
                            > design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on
                            > the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its
                            > motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational
                            > propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and
                            > figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to
                            > maximize static thrust/hp.
                            > At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote:
                            >  
                            > >[Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below]
                            > >
                            > >When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and
                            > a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see
                            > attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from
                            > bouncing around.
                            > > 
                            > >Larry
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                            > >To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                            > >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                            > >Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                            > >
                            > > 
                            > >Larry,
                            > >If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props
                            > chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle
                            > where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain
                            > does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the
                            > engine.
                            > >
                            > >Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which
                            > has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.
                            > >
                            > >Gary Wolf
                            > >
                            > >--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                            > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving
                            > two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They
                            > managed to fly successfully.
                            > >>
                            > >> The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead,
                            > used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big
                            > they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too,
                            > and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                            > >>
                            > >> Larry
                            > >>
                            > >> --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                            > >> >
                            > >> >
                            > >> > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a
                            > standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either
                            > break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam
                            > chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or
                            > roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on
                            > the tension side.
                            > >> >
                            > >> > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush
                            > hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who
                            > had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about
                            > the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound,
                            > just before something breaks.
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the
                            > dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive
                            > of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity
                            > does the damping there.
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Gary Wolf
                            > >> >
                            > >> >
                            > >> >
                            > >> > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                            > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                            > >> > >
                            > >> > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid
                            > buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait
                            > forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how
                            > to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                            > >> > > Thanks Larry.
                            > >> > >
                            > >> > >
                            > >> > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand
                            > <nheistand@> wrote:
                            > >> > > >
                            > >> > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth.
                            > I drill 6 holes in it
                            > >> > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The
                            > sprocket uses an SH bushing
                            > >> > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                            > >> > > >
                            > >> > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                            > >> > > >
                            > >> > > >
                            > >> > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa
                            > <lisa4682@> wrote:
                            > >> > > >
                            > >> > > > > **
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda
                            > engine.
                            > >> > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the
                            > crank out of the engine?
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type
                            > of engine or can I build
                            > >> > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a
                            > prop??
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > > >
                            > >> > > >
                            > >> > >
                            > >> >
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Tony Cortez
                            I have run dry clutches which translates to a dry primary chain with no real hassle. Lubricated it the same as the drive chain. Tony ... From: ron ohler To:
                            Message 15 of 29 , Jul 20, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              
                              I have run dry clutches which translates to a dry primary chain with no real hassle. Lubricated it the same as the drive chain. 
                              Tony
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: ron ohler
                              Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 5:51 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                               

                              In an oil bath.

                              From: Tony Cortez <tonico222@...>
                              To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 6:45 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                               
                              I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                               
                              Tony
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Art
                              Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 3:08 AM
                              Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                               
                              Same question here. I have chain driven camshafts in my 7800 rpm engine which is pretty quiet as small engines go. It does have hydraulic tensioners and sliders.
                              Art
                              From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Mazzoline
                              Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:59 PM
                              To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                              Iv been peeking at this from a distance. But I have a question. You say a chain at 3600 rpm is trouble.  Well I'm thinking a timing chain on a V-8 spins faster than that, albeit not spinning a big prop.
                              On Jul 19, 2013, at 10:02 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:


                              Hi,
                              I used to use a lithium base grease to boil my motor cycle chains in. I had a 1961 Harley Sprint and then a total of 4 1966 -1968 Suzuki X-6 Hustlers. Still have the Suzuki's.
                              I did some consulting at an alternative energy company that tried chain drive on a engine driven generator. Never again.
                              Chain drive is what it is. Best left for low speed operation. Anyone can look up various manufacturers of chain and their design criteria. Chain speed wrapping around a sprocket at 3600 rpm is going to create some serious issues. Go ahead and spend the money on all the parts and build it. You'll see - and hear - why it is not a good idea. Might not run it long enough to even deal with the maintenance issues.
                              Best,
                              RonO
                              From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                              To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:18 AM
                              Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                              I have an old-fashioned recommendation I have used, and it works great. Put the chain in a pot with enough blocks of canning paraffin to cover when melted and heat it up. When all is melted and soaked in take the chain out and let it drain. When cooled go along and break the links loose and install. No more oiling, no oil spray, no rusting. That is early bicycle practice proven over time. I used it on ten-speed bikes to Harly Davidson bikes...
                              Garry

                              --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              > Have you ridden a chain drive motorcycle? Ever dealt with the constant maintenance? Oil slinging off? Noise and vibration? They put vibration dampeners in the drive hub for a reason. Are you going to do that with a plane's redrive?
                              > Best,
                              > RonO
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                              > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:15 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              > And the engines they used had much lower HP and much slower RPM. 
                              >   A gokart chain definitely wouldn't work on a 50HP aircraft engine or even a twin honda. But, it might work on a 212cc predator hopped up to 12HP. I'm going to give it a shot. Not in the air. But on a sled of some sort. You can get a full 12HP without going over 3600RPM. 12HP isn't alot but it would be good for a para. I put a racing centrifugal clutch on it. Then the engine could be hand started without turning the prop. If two of these engines were used on a light weight UL, that would be 24HP. Still not a lot of HP, but enough. The advantage of using two small engines instead of one (like the Lazair) is if one engine goes out, level flight can be maintained with the other. With a centrifugal clutch the engine that is stalled will freewheel. The biggest advantage is money. Two 212cc engines hopped up, would be less than half the price of a Honda twin out of the box.  
                              >   On the the other hand I could just use a double belt centrifugal clutch too and not experiment.
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                              > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:48 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >  
                              > Hi,
                              > What must be remembered is that belt technology was still in it's infancy. We're talking cotton and rubber. Not some of the later elastomers and Kevlar. Chain was a known and understood product but with some significant limitations. It certainly is not the preferred product for a prop reduction drive at this time.
                              > Best,
                              > RonO
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                              > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:27 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [2 Attachments]
                              >
                              >  
                              > As long as we are going to continue this topic. 
                              > Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive. 
                              >   But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive. 
                              >   Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this. 
                              >   If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men.
                              >
                              > I went on too long, didn't I
                              > Larry
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Alan Muller <alan@...>
                              > To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                              >
                              >  
                              > The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed
                              > like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their
                              > design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on
                              > the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its
                              > motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational
                              > propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and
                              > figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to
                              > maximize static thrust/hp.
                              > At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote:
                              >  
                              > >[Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below]
                              > >
                              > >When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and
                              > a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see
                              > attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from
                              > bouncing around.
                              > > 
                              > >Larry
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                              > >To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                              > >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                              > >Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                              > >
                              > > 
                              > >Larry,
                              > >If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props
                              > chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle
                              > where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain
                              > does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the
                              > engine.
                              > >
                              > >Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which
                              > has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.
                              > >
                              > >Gary Wolf
                              > >
                              > >--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                              > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >> The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving
                              > two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They
                              > managed to fly successfully.
                              > >>
                              > >> The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead,
                              > used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big
                              > they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too,
                              > and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                              > >>
                              > >> Larry
                              > >>
                              > >> --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a
                              > standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either
                              > break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam
                              > chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or
                              > roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on
                              > the tension side.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush
                              > hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who
                              > had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about
                              > the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound,
                              > just before something breaks.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the
                              > dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive
                              > of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity
                              > does the damping there.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > Gary Wolf
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                              > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                              > >> > >
                              > >> > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid
                              > buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait
                              > forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how
                              > to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                              > >> > > Thanks Larry.
                              > >> > >
                              > >> > >
                              > >> > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand
                              > <nheistand@> wrote:
                              > >> > > >
                              > >> > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth.
                              > I drill 6 holes in it
                              > >> > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The
                              > sprocket uses an SH bushing
                              > >> > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                              > >> > > >
                              > >> > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                              > >> > > >
                              > >> > > >
                              > >> > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa
                              > <lisa4682@> wrote:
                              > >> > > >
                              > >> > > > > **
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda
                              > engine.
                              > >> > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the
                              > crank out of the engine?
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type
                              > of engine or can I build
                              > >> > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a
                              > prop??
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > > >
                              > >> > > >
                              > >> > >
                              > >> >
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >

                            • ron ohler
                              Oh well, Go ahead and run it. I got nothing in this. Not going to keep wasting time on posts. I ve got a belt(banded) on my plane s redrive that I installed in
                              Message 16 of 29 , Jul 20, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Oh well,
                                Go ahead and run it. I got nothing in this. Not going to keep wasting time on posts. I've got a belt(banded) on my plane's redrive that I installed in 1992. Put some 350 hours on it and it's got untold amounts of life left in it. You gonna claim a dry chain would give 20,000 miles of service and still have life left in it and the sprockets? Like I said - go ahead and try it. I'm done with this.
                                Best,
                                RonO
                                From: Tony Cortez <tonico222@...>
                                To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:30 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                 
                                
                                I have run dry clutches which translates to a dry primary chain with no real hassle. Lubricated it the same as the drive chain. 
                                Tony
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: ron ohler
                                Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 5:51 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                                 
                                In an oil bath.

                                From: Tony Cortez <tonico222@...>
                                To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 6:45 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                 
                                I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                                 
                                Tony
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Art
                                Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 3:08 AM
                                Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                                 
                                Same question here. I have chain driven camshafts in my 7800 rpm engine which is pretty quiet as small engines go. It does have hydraulic tensioners and sliders.
                                Art
                                From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Mazzoline
                                Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:59 PM
                                To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                Iv been peeking at this from a distance. But I have a question. You say a chain at 3600 rpm is trouble.  Well I'm thinking a timing chain on a V-8 spins faster than that, albeit not spinning a big prop.
                                On Jul 19, 2013, at 10:02 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:

                                Hi,
                                I used to use a lithium base grease to boil my motor cycle chains in. I had a 1961 Harley Sprint and then a total of 4 1966 -1968 Suzuki X-6 Hustlers. Still have the Suzuki's.
                                I did some consulting at an alternative energy company that tried chain drive on a engine driven generator. Never again.
                                Chain drive is what it is. Best left for low speed operation. Anyone can look up various manufacturers of chain and their design criteria. Chain speed wrapping around a sprocket at 3600 rpm is going to create some serious issues. Go ahead and spend the money on all the parts and build it. You'll see - and hear - why it is not a good idea. Might not run it long enough to even deal with the maintenance issues.
                                Best,
                                RonO
                                From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                                To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:18 AM
                                Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                I have an old-fashioned recommendation I have used, and it works great. Put the chain in a pot with enough blocks of canning paraffin to cover when melted and heat it up. When all is melted and soaked in take the chain out and let it drain. When cooled go along and break the links loose and install. No more oiling, no oil spray, no rusting. That is early bicycle practice proven over time. I used it on ten-speed bikes to Harly Davidson bikes... Garry --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote: > > Hi, > Have you ridden a chain drive motorcycle? Ever dealt with the constant maintenance? Oil slinging off? Noise and vibration? They put vibration dampeners in the drive hub for a reason. Are you going to do that with a plane's redrive? > Best, > RonO > > > ________________________________ > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...> > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive > >   > > And the engines they used had much lower HP and much slower RPM.  >   A gokart chain definitely wouldn't work on a 50HP aircraft engine or even a twin honda. But, it might work on a 212cc predator hopped up to 12HP. I'm going to give it a shot. Not in the air. But on a sled of some sort. You can get a full 12HP without going over 3600RPM. 12HP isn't alot but it would be good for a para. I put a racing centrifugal clutch on it. Then the engine could be hand started without turning the prop. If two of these engines were used on a light weight UL, that would be 24HP. Still not a lot of HP, but enough. The advantage of using two small engines instead of one (like the Lazair) is if one engine goes out, level flight can be maintained with the other. With a centrifugal clutch the engine that is stalled will freewheel. The biggest advantage is money. Two 212cc engines hopped up, would be less than half the price of a Honda twin out of the box.   >   On the the other hand I could just use a double belt centrifugal clutch too and not experiment. > > > ________________________________ > From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive > >   > >   > Hi, > What must be remembered is that belt technology was still in it's infancy. We're talking cotton and rubber. Not some of the later elastomers and Kevlar. Chain was a known and understood product but with some significant limitations. It certainly is not the preferred product for a prop reduction drive at this time. > Best, > RonO > > > ________________________________ > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...> > To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [2 Attachments] > >   > As long as we are going to continue this topic.  > Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive.  >   But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive.  >   Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this.  >   If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men. > > I went on too long, didn't I > Larry > > > ________________________________ > From: Alan Muller <alan@...> > To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive > >   > The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed > like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their > design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on > the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its > motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational > propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and > figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to > maximize static thrust/hp. > At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote: >   > >[Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below] > > > >When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and > a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see > attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from > bouncing around. > >  > >Larry > > > > > >From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...> > >To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com > >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM > >Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive > > > >  > >Larry, > >If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props > chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle > where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain > does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the > engine. > > > >Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which > has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin. > > > >Gary Wolf > > > >--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" > <larrymalone2000@> wrote: > >> > >> The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving > two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They > managed to fly successfully. > >> > >> The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead, > used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big > they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too, > and interestingly, burned acetylene. > >> > >> Larry > >> > >> --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a > standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either > break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam > chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or > roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on > the tension side. > >> > > >> > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush > hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who > had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about > the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound, > just before something breaks. > >> > > >> > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the > dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive > of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity > does the damping there. > >> > > >> > Gary Wolf > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000" > <larrymalone2000@> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid > buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait > forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how > to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly? > >> > > Thanks Larry. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand > <nheistand@> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth. > I drill 6 holes in it > >> > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The > sprocket uses an SH bushing > >> > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft. > >> > > > > >> > > > Norm Heistand my .02 > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa > <lisa4682@> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > ** > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda > engine. > >> > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the > crank out of the engine? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type > of engine or can I build > >> > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a > prop?? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Any thoughts about this?? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >
                              • Norman Heistand
                                The modern alternative to the chain drive is the cog belt drive. I like the multi groove v belt drives with banded belts. One advantage is the v belt provides
                                Message 17 of 29 , Jul 20, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The modern alternative to the chain drive is the cog belt drive. I like the multi groove v belt drives with banded belts. One advantage is the v belt provides cushion for the power pulses.

                                  It is true that an "o ring" type motorcycle chain will stay lubed a long time and provide many miles of service. It is also true that the best way to avoid problems is to run an idler sprocket to maintain desired chain tension.

                                  Norm Heistand  my .02


                                  On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:37 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Oh well,
                                  Go ahead and run it. I got nothing in this. Not going to keep wasting time on posts. I've got a belt(banded) on my plane's redrive that I installed in 1992. Put some 350 hours on it and it's got untold amounts of life left in it. You gonna claim a dry chain would give 20,000 miles of service and still have life left in it and the sprockets? Like I said - go ahead and try it. I'm done with this.
                                  Best,
                                  RonO
                                  Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:30 AM

                                  Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                   
                                  I have run dry clutches which translates to a dry primary chain with no real hassle. Lubricated it the same as the drive chain. 
                                  Tony
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: ron ohler
                                  Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 5:51 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                                   
                                  In an oil bath.

                                  From: Tony Cortez <tonico222@...>
                                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 6:45 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                   
                                  I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                                   
                                  Tony
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Art
                                  Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 3:08 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                                   
                                  Same question here. I have chain driven camshafts in my 7800 rpm engine which is pretty quiet as small engines go. It does have hydraulic tensioners and sliders.
                                  Art
                                  From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Mazzoline
                                  Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:59 PM
                                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                  Iv been peeking at this from a distance. But I have a question. You say a chain at 3600 rpm is trouble.  Well I'm thinking a timing chain on a V-8 spins faster than that, albeit not spinning a big prop.
                                  On Jul 19, 2013, at 10:02 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:

                                  Hi,
                                  I used to use a lithium base grease to boil my motor cycle chains in. I had a 1961 Harley Sprint and then a total of 4 1966 -1968 Suzuki X-6 Hustlers. Still have the Suzuki's.
                                  I did some consulting at an alternative energy company that tried chain drive on a engine driven generator. Never again.
                                  Chain drive is what it is. Best left for low speed operation. Anyone can look up various manufacturers of chain and their design criteria. Chain speed wrapping around a sprocket at 3600 rpm is going to create some serious issues. Go ahead and spend the money on all the parts and build it. You'll see - and hear - why it is not a good idea. Might not run it long enough to even deal with the maintenance issues.
                                  Best,
                                  RonO
                                  From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                                  To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:18 AM
                                  Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                  I have an old-fashioned recommendation I have used, and it works great. Put the chain in a pot with enough blocks of canning paraffin to cover when melted and heat it up. When all is melted and soaked in take the chain out and let it drain. When cooled go along and break the links loose and install. No more oiling, no oil spray, no rusting. That is early bicycle practice proven over time. I used it on ten-speed bikes to Harly Davidson bikes...Garry--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:>> Hi,> Have you ridden a chain drive motorcycle? Ever dealt with the constant maintenance? Oil slinging off? Noise and vibration? They put vibration dampeners in the drive hub for a reason. Are you going to do that with a plane's redrive?> Best,> RonO> > > ________________________________> From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>> To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:15 AM> Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive> >   > > And the engines they used had much lower HP and much slower RPM. >   A gokart chain definitely wouldn't work on a 50HP aircraft engine or even a twin honda. But, it might work on a 212cc predator hopped up to 12HP. I'm going to give it a shot. Not in the air. But on a sled of some sort. You can get a full 12HP without going over 3600RPM. 12HP isn't alot but it would be good for a para. I put a racing centrifugal clutch on it. Then the engine could be hand started without turning the prop. If two of these engines were used on a light weight UL, that would be 24HP. Still not a lot of HP, but enough. The advantage of using two small engines instead of one (like the Lazair) is if one engine goes out, level flight can be maintained with the other. With a centrifugal clutch the engine that is stalled will freewheel. The biggest advantage is money. Two 212cc engines hopped up, would be less than half the price of a Honda twin out of the box.  >   On the the other hand I could just use a double belt centrifugal clutch too and not experiment.> > > ________________________________> From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>> To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:48 AM> Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive> >   > >   > Hi,> What must be remembered is that belt technology was still in it's infancy. We're talking cotton and rubber. Not some of the later elastomers and Kevlar. Chain was a known and understood product but with some significant limitations. It certainly is not the preferred product for a prop reduction drive at this time.> Best,> RonO> > > ________________________________> From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>> To: "mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:27 PM> Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [2 Attachments]> >   > As long as we are going to continue this topic. > Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive. >   But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive. >   Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this. >   If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men.> > I went on too long, didn't I> Larry> > > ________________________________> From: Alan Muller <alan@...>> To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM> Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive> >   > The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed> like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their> design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on> the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its> motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational> propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and> figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to> maximize static thrust/hp. > At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote: >   > >[Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below] > >> >When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and> a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see> attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from> bouncing around.> > > >Larry> >> >> >From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>> >To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com > >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM> >Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive> >> >  > >Larry,> >If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props> chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle> where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain> does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the> engine. > >> >Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which> has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin. > >> >Gary Wolf> >> >--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"> <larrymalone2000@> wrote:> >>> >> The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving> two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They> managed to fly successfully. > >> > >> The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead,> used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big> they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too,> and interestingly, burned acetylene.> >> > >> Larry> >> > >> --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:> >> >> >> > > >> > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a> standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either> break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam> chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or> roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on> the tension side. > >> > > >> > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush> hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who> had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about> the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound,> just before something breaks. > >> > > >> > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the> dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive> of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity> does the damping there.> >> > > >> > Gary Wolf> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"> <larrymalone2000@> wrote:> >> > >> >> > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid> buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait> forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how> to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly? > >> > > Thanks Larry.> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand> <nheistand@> wrote:> >> > > >> >> > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth.> I drill 6 holes in it> >> > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The> sprocket uses an SH bushing> >> > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.> >> > > > > >> > > > Norm Heistand my .02> >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa> <lisa4682@> wrote:> >> > > > > >> > > > > **> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda> engine.> >> > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the> crank out of the engine?> >> > > > >> >> > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type> of engine or can I build> >> > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a> prop??> >> > > > >> >> > > > > Any thoughts about this??> >> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>


                                • George Bearden
                                  ... Any manufacturer still using a primary chain? I haven t seen one in years. please don t say the H word to me.
                                  Message 18 of 29 , Jul 21, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    > I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle

                                     

                                    Any manufacturer still using a primary chain? I haven't seen one in years. please don't say the 'H' word to me.

                                  • George Bearden
                                    ... Way back they used to have a lil pipe that dripped oil on to the primary. And yes, it was messy. Some of those limey bikes I wish I could un-remember.
                                    Message 19 of 29 , Jul 21, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      > which translates to a dry primary chain

                                       

                                      Way back they used to have a lil pipe that dripped oil on to the primary. And yes, it was messy. Some of those limey bikes I wish I could un-remember.

                                    • Alan Muller
                                      Just because roller chain is an old thing doesn t mean it s not a good thing. It stays in use on bicycles not because alternatives haven t been tried.....
                                      Message 20 of 29 , Jul 22, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Just because roller chain is an old thing doesn't mean it's not a good thing.  It stays in use on bicycles not because alternatives haven't been tried.....  But it seems to me one of the limitations is that the design is not very fault-tolerant:  lots of little pieces subject to manufacturing defects and fatigue.

                                        At 10:39 AM 7/20/2013 -0500, you wrote:
                                         

                                        
                                        I have run dry clutches which translates to a dry primary chain with no real hassle. Lubricated it the same as the drive chain. 
                                        Tony
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: ron ohler
                                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 5:51 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                                         

                                        In an oil bath.

                                        From: Tony Cortez <tonico222@...>
                                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 6:45 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                         
                                        I would mention that the primary chain on most any motorcycle runs at crankshaft speeds and at a load that I would venture to guess higher than driving a prop.
                                         
                                        Tony
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Art
                                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 3:08 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive

                                         
                                        Same question here. I have chain driven camshafts in my 7800 rpm engine which is pretty quiet as small engines go. It does have hydraulic tensioners and sliders.
                                        Art
                                        From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Mazzoline
                                        Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:59 PM
                                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] chain redrive
                                        Iv been peeking at this from a distance. But I have a question. You say a chain at 3600 rpm is trouble.  Well I'm thinking a timing chain on a V-8 spins faster than that, albeit not spinning a big prop.
                                        On Jul 19, 2013, at 10:02 PM, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:


                                        Hi,
                                        I used to use a lithium base grease to boil my motor cycle chains in. I had a 1961 Harley Sprint and then a total of 4 1966 -1968 Suzuki X-6 Hustlers. Still have the Suzuki's.
                                        I did some consulting at an alternative energy company that tried chain drive on a engine driven generator. Never again.
                                        Chain drive is what it is. Best left for low speed operation. Anyone can look up various manufacturers of chain and their design criteria. Chain speed wrapping around a sprocket at 3600 rpm is going to create some serious issues. Go ahead and spend the money on all the parts and build it. You'll see - and hear - why it is not a good idea. Might not run it long enough to even deal with the maintenance issues.
                                        Best,
                                        RonO
                                        From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@... >
                                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:18 AM
                                        Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                        I have an old-fashioned recommendation I have used, and it works great. Put the chain in a pot with enough blocks of canning paraffin to cover when melted and heat it up. When all is melted and soaked in take the chain out and let it drain. When cooled go along and break the links loose and install. No more oiling, no oil spray, no rusting. That is early bicycle practice proven over time. I used it on ten-speed bikes to Harly Davidson bikes...
                                        Garry

                                        --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi,
                                        > Have you ridden a chain drive motorcycle? Ever dealt with the constant maintenance? Oil slinging off? Noise and vibration? They put vibration dampeners in the drive hub for a reason. Are you going to do that with a plane's redrive?
                                        > Best,
                                        > RonO
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                                        > To: " mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" < mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 10:15 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        > And the engines they used had much lower HP and much slower RPM.Â
                                        >   A gokart chain definitely wouldn't work on a 50HP aircraft engine or even a twin honda. But, it might work on a 212cc predator hopped up to 12HP. I'm going to give it a shot. Not in the air. But on a sled of some sort. You can get a full 12HP without going over 3600RPM. 12HP isn't alot but it would be good for a para. I put a racing centrifugal clutch on it. Then the engine could be hand started without turning the prop. If two of these engines were used on a light weight UL, that would be 24HP. Still not a lot of HP, but enough. The advantage of using two small engines instead of one (like the Lazair) is if one engine goes out, level flight can be maintained with the other. With a centrifugal clutch the engine that is stalled will freewheel. The biggest advantage is money. Two 212cc engines hopped up, would be less than half the price of a Honda twin out of the box. Â
                                        >   On the the other hand I could just use a double belt centrifugal clutch too and not experiment.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                                        > To: " mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" < mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:48 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > Hi,
                                        > What must be remembered is that belt technology was still in it's infancy. We're talking cotton and rubber. Not some of the later elastomers and Kevlar. Chain was a known and understood product but with some significant limitations. It certainly is not the preferred product for a prop reduction drive at this time.
                                        > Best,
                                        > RonO
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Larry Malone <larrymalone2000@...>
                                        > To: " mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com" < mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:27 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive [2 Attachments]
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > As long as we are going to continue this topic.Â
                                        > Glenn Curtiss, (the man that made the first offical airplane flight, he received pilot lic. #1) built the Junebug. A biplane pusher with direct drive.Â
                                        >   But, his later planes went on to have chain driven redrives. In 1908 he flew the Silverdart. A pusher with chain drive. See attachment. The first photo is of the original silverdart. The second photo is of an accurate reproduction which shows the engine and chain drive.Â
                                        >   Glenn Curtiss is arguably the most important of the early aviators. His use of ailerons, instead of the Wright wing warping, went on to become the aviation standard. (ailerons were invented by Alexander G. Bell) Curtis Aircraft Corp. went on to absorb the failing Wright Aircraft Corp. To form the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Corp. long after either of them had any real control over their companies. After years of bitter patent fights, the irony of having Curtiss before Wright in the company name, was not lost on either Curtiss or Wright. Who both lived to see this.Â
                                        >   If your not familar with the lives of the aviation pioneers. You should be. It is fascinating. Gustave Whitehead, Alberto Santos Dumont, The Wright Bros, Glenn Curtiss. Each one of these men developed aviation in it's infancy. It's fair to say, they worked independently of each other, and that each had reason to believe they were the first to fly. Whitehead before the wrights. The Wrights knew of no one else that had successfully flown a controllable airplane. Curtiss had heard of the secretive Wright Bros. But, they had not publicly flown, and many did not believe their stories of flight. Dumont, in isolation, in europe was celebrated as the first person to fly an airplane for years. I encourage you to read about these inventive men.
                                        >
                                        > I went on too long, didn't I
                                        > Larry
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Alan Muller <alan@...>
                                        > To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:46 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > The Wrights were bicycle people, so using roller chain probably seemed
                                        > like the obvious way to go.  And it probably was for their
                                        > design--high efficiency and not much tension needed to keep the chain on
                                        > the sprockets.  IIRC, they had the chain in tubes to control its
                                        > motion.  The Wrights may have been the first to figure out rational
                                        > propeller design.  They had wind tunnel data on airfoil sections and
                                        > figured out how to use that for props; apparently they got how to
                                        > maximize static thrust/hp.
                                        > At 11:49 AM 7/16/2013 -0700, you wrote:
                                        >  
                                        > >[Attachment(s) from Larry Malone included below]
                                        > >
                                        > >When you said a roller chain needs a tensioning slipper and
                                        > a damping slipper, I was not sure what you meant. I found a picture (see
                                        > attachment) Is this what you mean? A device to keep the chain from
                                        > bouncing around.
                                        > >Â
                                        > >Larry
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >From: "garywolf@..." <garywolf@...>
                                        > >To: mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com
                                        > >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 4:53 PM
                                        > >Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: chain redrive
                                        > >
                                        > > 
                                        > >Larry,
                                        > >If I recall correctly the Wrights had one central engine and two props
                                        > chain driven, one each side. This arrangement is similar to a motorcycle
                                        > where the chain runs are essentially horizontal and the mass of the chain
                                        > does the damping of the wave induced by the torsional vibration of the
                                        > engine.
                                        > >
                                        > >Also I think that they were using an inline four cylinder engine which
                                        > has a much different torsional vibration signature from that of a V-twin.
                                        > >
                                        > >Gary Wolf
                                        > >
                                        > >--- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                                        > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                                        > >>
                                        > >> The Wright Bros used chain redrive. They had a 12HP engine driving
                                        > two eight foot props. The engine was aluminum and their own design. They
                                        > managed to fly successfully.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> The first man to fly a heavier than air craft, Gustave Whitehead,
                                        > used a 30HP engine with chain, driving two props. I'm not sure how big
                                        > they were. Look to be 48 to 52 inches. His engine was his own design too,
                                        > and interestingly, burned acetylene.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Larry
                                        > >>
                                        > >> --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, garywolf@ wrote:
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> > One of the problems in using chain is that there can be a
                                        > standing wave in the run, and this can gain enough amplitude to either
                                        > break the chain or the crank. Look at how this is handled in the cam
                                        > chain of a motorcycle engine. There will be a tensioning slipper or
                                        > roller on the loose side of the chain and one or two damping slippers on
                                        > the tension side.
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> > At one time I intended to build a chain redrive using the cush
                                        > hub and sprocket from a motorcycle and was dissuaded by an old German who
                                        > had been adding motors to gliders just after the war. He told me about
                                        > the standing wave which can grow large enough to make a growling sound,
                                        > just before something breaks.
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> > Until the fellow explained this to me I had not understood the
                                        > dynamics. I had been thinking of how well a chain works on the rear drive
                                        > of motorcycles, but he explained that the runs are horizontal so gravity
                                        > does the damping there.
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> > Gary Wolf
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> >
                                        > >> > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, "larrymalone2000"
                                        > <larrymalone2000@> wrote:
                                        > >> > >
                                        > >> > > Thanks Norm. I was trying to think of a way to avoid
                                        > buying an expensive purpose made prop hub. That seems pretty strait
                                        > forward. Go kart parts were my first thought, but I wasn't clear on how
                                        > to execute the thing. Is there a picture of your assembly?
                                        > >> > > Thanks Larry.
                                        > >> > >
                                        > >> > >
                                        > >> > > --- In mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com, Norman Heistand
                                        > <nheistand@> wrote:
                                        > >> > > >
                                        > >> > > > I use a chain sprocket #35 chain type with 36 teeth.
                                        > I drill 6 holes in it
                                        > >> > > > 3.25 in bolt circle and mount a prop to it. The
                                        > sprocket uses an SH bushing
                                        > >> > > > that can be ordered to match your power shaft.
                                        > >> > > >
                                        > >> > > > Norm Heistand my .02
                                        > >> > > >
                                        > >> > > >
                                        > >> > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bishop Lisa
                                        > <lisa4682@> wrote:
                                        > >> > > >
                                        > >> > > > > **
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > > > I would like to go direct drive on a small honda
                                        > engine.
                                        > >> > > > > Is there any concern with the prop pulling the
                                        > crank out of the engine?
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > > > Does a direct drive prop hub exist for this type
                                        > of engine or can I build
                                        > >> > > > > one using a belt pully modified to mount to a
                                        > prop??
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > > > Any thoughts about this??
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > > >
                                        > >> > > >
                                        > >> > >
                                        > >> >
                                        > >>
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >

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