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Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

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  • Doug Hoffman
    ... Do you mean that thrust direction is considered by some to be an issue? Could you explain a bit more? Mark Calder says it is *not* an issue although I m
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 6, 2012
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      On Dec 6, 2012, at 3:34 PM, "Maldague" <jmmaldague@...> wrote:

       


      The issue with the carb position is known by the Luciole owners here in Europe. The comments are that after a long run at low idle (ex: approach for landing) if throttle needs to be applied, the engine will run rough for some seconds. That is due to condensed fuel laying behind the butterfly and being aspirated into the cylinders. Some are just dealing with that, some have moved back the carb to the original upper position. I heard that Michel Colomban is now proposing a solution to solve this.
      I also heard that one of the reasons to mount the propeller in that side of the engine is to avoid pulling on the bolted case.

      Do you mean that thrust direction is considered by some to be an issue?  Could you explain a bit more?

      Mark Calder says it is *not* an issue although I'm not sure how he knows this with certainty.

      -Doug




      All that said, the setup might not be perfect but it is working, many Luciole are flying (some have done hundreds of hours) with it allowing easy cruise at 90 mph burning 1.2 gallon/h and able of a v max around 120 mph.
      Jmm

      --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
      >
      > the thrust load is peanuts!!! 150 lbs max. That's not an issue
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t0004dh
      > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 12:21 PM
      > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kev A" <kevin@>
      > wrote:
      > > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft
      > Vanguard model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could
      > still throw away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on
      > and have had the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature
      > distribution across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest
      > part and warming the inlet side to stop icing.
      > >
      > > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
      > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
      > >
      > > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really
      > makes huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine
      > bolt-points on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done,
      > using stays and rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock
      > base mounts.
      > >
      > > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
      >
      > Are you sure about which way is best to load the crankshaft bearings for
      > propeller thrust? I have not done the analysis. But I had assumed that
      > Columban did and he had concluded that the tractor prop was best mounted
      > on the intake side of the engine for thrust bearing reasons which are
      > likely more important than other considerations.
      >
      > -Doug
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
      > address.
      >


    • Maldague
      Not at all, the thrust as the propeller is installed is pulling on the entire case. If it had been installed on the PTO side it would have pull on the bolted
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 6, 2012
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        Not at all, the thrust as the propeller is installed is pulling on the entire case. If it had been installed on the PTO side it would have pull on the bolted part of the case.
        The choice made by MC avoid pulling on the bolts.
        Jmm

        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Doug Hoffman <glidedog@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > On Dec 6, 2012, at 3:34 PM, "Maldague" <jmmaldague@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > The issue with the carb position is known by the Luciole owners here in Europe. The comments are that after a long run at low idle (ex: approach for landing) if throttle needs to be applied, the engine will run rough for some seconds. That is due to condensed fuel laying behind the butterfly and being aspirated into the cylinders. Some are just dealing with that, some have moved back the carb to the original upper position. I heard that Michel Colomban is now proposing a solution to solve this.
        > > I also heard that one of the reasons to mount the propeller in that side of the engine is to avoid pulling on the bolted case.
        > >
        > Do you mean that thrust direction is considered by some to be an issue? Could you explain a bit more?
        >
        > Mark Calder says it is *not* an issue although I'm not sure how he knows this with certainty.
        >
        > -Doug
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > All that said, the setup might not be perfect but it is working, many Luciole are flying (some have done hundreds of hours) with it allowing easy cruise at 90 mph burning 1.2 gallon/h and able of a v max around 120 mph.
        > > Jmm
        > >
        > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > the thrust load is peanuts!!! 150 lbs max. That's not an issue
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > >
        > > > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
        > > > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t0004dh
        > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 12:21 PM
        > > > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
        > > > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kev A" <kevin@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft
        > > > Vanguard model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could
        > > > still throw away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on
        > > > and have had the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature
        > > > distribution across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest
        > > > part and warming the inlet side to stop icing.
        > > > >
        > > > > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
        > > > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
        > > > >
        > > > > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really
        > > > makes huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine
        > > > bolt-points on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done,
        > > > using stays and rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock
        > > > base mounts.
        > > > >
        > > > > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
        > > >
        > > > Are you sure about which way is best to load the crankshaft bearings for
        > > > propeller thrust? I have not done the analysis. But I had assumed that
        > > > Columban did and he had concluded that the tractor prop was best mounted
        > > > on the intake side of the engine for thrust bearing reasons which are
        > > > likely more important than other considerations.
        > > >
        > > > -Doug
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
        > > > address.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • boxerbs
        Now ya done it! LOL! That has been debated here before; the how much can a briggs crankshaft take issue. Be warned, thicken your skin... :-) Garry
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 6, 2012
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          Now ya done it! LOL! That has been "debated" here before; the "how much can a briggs crankshaft take" issue. Be warned, thicken your skin... :-)
          Garry

          --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
          >
          > the thrust load is peanuts!!! 150 lbs max. That's not an issue
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t0004dh
          > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 12:21 PM
          > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kev A" <kevin@>
          > wrote:
          > > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft
          > Vanguard model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could
          > still throw away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on
          > and have had the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature
          > distribution across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest
          > part and warming the inlet side to stop icing.
          > >
          > > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
          > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
          > >
          > > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really
          > makes huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine
          > bolt-points on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done,
          > using stays and rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock
          > base mounts.
          > >
          > > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
          >
          > Are you sure about which way is best to load the crankshaft bearings for
          > propeller thrust? I have not done the analysis. But I had assumed that
          > Columban did and he had concluded that the tractor prop was best mounted
          > on the intake side of the engine for thrust bearing reasons which are
          > likely more important than other considerations.
          >
          > -Doug
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
          > address.
          >
        • GeoB
          ... But don t you consider the exhaust valves one of the most critical areas for cooling? I have read that valve failure is statistically a really common
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 6, 2012
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            > In that case, the cylinders would be enjoying nicely pre-warmed air

            But don't you consider the exhaust valves one of the most critical areas for cooling? I have read that valve failure is statistically a really common failure on aircraft.
          • Mario Mohl
            That s exactly what I m saying. Better to have the air cooling the heads directly than having to flow around the exhaust and get warmed in the process.
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 6, 2012
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              That's exactly what I'm saying.
              Better to have the air cooling the heads directly than having to flow around the exhaust and get warmed in the process.



              On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:10 PM, GeoB <gab16@...> wrote:
              > In that case, the cylinders would be enjoying nicely pre-warmed air

              But don't you consider the exhaust valves one of the most critical areas for cooling? I have read that valve failure is statistically a really common failure on aircraft.



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            • Peter Walker
              Hello You need to maintain the direction and flow to keep the engine cool The baffles are there to make the airflow go where it is needed to effectively cool
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
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                Hello
                You need to maintain the direction and flow to keep the engine cool The baffles are there to make the airflow go where it is needed to effectively cool the engine The exhaust area is engineered to run hotter and transfer more energy to the cooling air Exhaust valves fail due to running (too) lean of peak
                Peter



                From: Mario Mohl <mario.mohl@...>
                To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 11:56 AM
                Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                 
                That's exactly what I'm saying.
                Better to have the air cooling the heads directly than having to flow around the exhaust and get warmed in the process.



                On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:10 PM, GeoB <gab16@...> wrote:
                > In that case, the cylinders would be enjoying nicely pre-warmed air

                But don't you consider the exhaust valves one of the most critical areas for cooling? I have read that valve failure is statistically a really common failure on aircraft.



                ------------------------------------


                ### Lets use this list to build a knowledge base for those who are
                interested in flying with these engines. Don't forget you can search the
                messages archive for past discussions. Please keep comments on subject.
                Sorry, no attachments allowed.

                For access to the home page:
                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/<

                For direct access to the files area:
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                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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              • Doug Hoffman
                Interesting. Hadn t heard that one before. Seems like stronger (tensile) bolts and/or case mounting/stiffeners might address that. Meanwhile we have
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
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                  Interesting.  Hadn't heard that one before.  Seems like stronger (tensile) bolts and/or case mounting/stiffeners might address that.  Meanwhile we have Colomban wanting to use the flywheel side and many test hours using the flywheel side.  I would want to see the internals of the crank and the bearings with my eyes.  Ball bearings are not good in axial loads (good for radial loads).  The plain bearing on the flywheel side could be good for axial thrust but it depends on the details.  Meanwhile it seems that (most? all?) proof testing is using the flywheel side and they appear to be having success.  Not saying the PTO side wouldn't work but are we aware of significant prove out testing that way?

                  -Doug

                  On Dec 6, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Maldague <jmmaldague@...> wrote:

                   


                  Not at all, the thrust as the propeller is installed is pulling on the entire case. If it had been installed on the PTO side it would have pull on the bolted part of the case.
                  The choice made by MC avoid pulling on the bolts.
                  Jmm

                  --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Doug Hoffman <glidedog@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > On Dec 6, 2012, at 3:34 PM, "Maldague" <jmmaldague@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > The issue with the carb position is known by the Luciole owners here in Europe. The comments are that after a long run at low idle (ex: approach for landing) if throttle needs to be applied, the engine will run rough for some seconds. That is due to condensed fuel laying behind the butterfly and being aspirated into the cylinders. Some are just dealing with that, some have moved back the carb to the original upper position. I heard that Michel Colomban is now proposing a solution to solve this.
                  > > I also heard that one of the reasons to mount the propeller in that side of the engine is to avoid pulling on the bolted case.
                  > >
                  > Do you mean that thrust direction is considered by some to be an issue? Could you explain a bit more?
                  >
                  > Mark Calder says it is *not* an issue although I'm not sure how he knows this with certainty.
                  >
                  > -Doug
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > All that said, the setup might not be perfect but it is working, many Luciole are flying (some have done hundreds of hours) with it allowing easy cruise at 90 mph burning 1.2 gallon/h and able of a v max around 120 mph.
                  > > Jmm
                  > >
                  > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > the thrust load is peanuts!!! 150 lbs max. That's not an issue
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________________________
                  > > >
                  > > > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t0004dh
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 12:21 PM
                  > > > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kev A" <kevin@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft
                  > > > Vanguard model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could
                  > > > still throw away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on
                  > > > and have had the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature
                  > > > distribution across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest
                  > > > part and warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                  > > > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really
                  > > > makes huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine
                  > > > bolt-points on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done,
                  > > > using stays and rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock
                  > > > base mounts.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                  > > >
                  > > > Are you sure about which way is best to load the crankshaft bearings for
                  > > > propeller thrust? I have not done the analysis. But I had assumed that
                  > > > Columban did and he had concluded that the tractor prop was best mounted
                  > > > on the intake side of the engine for thrust bearing reasons which are
                  > > > likely more important than other considerations.
                  > > >
                  > > > -Doug
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                  > > > address.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • Calder, Mark
                  check the specifications on any ball bearing of the size used on the flywheel side of the engine. most are rated around 2100 lbs.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
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                    check the specifications on any ball bearing of the size used on the flywheel side of the engine. most are rated around 2100 lbs.


                    From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Hoffman
                    Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 2:42 PM
                    To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                     


                    On Dec 6, 2012, at 3:34 PM, "Maldague" <jmmaldague@...> wrote:

                     


                    The issue with the carb position is known by the Luciole owners here in Europe. The comments are that after a long run at low idle (ex: approach for landing) if throttle needs to be applied, the engine will run rough for some seconds. That is due to condensed fuel laying behind the butterfly and being aspirated into the cylinders. Some are just dealing with that, some have moved back the carb to the original upper position. I heard that Michel Colomban is now proposing a solution to solve this.
                    I also heard that one of the reasons to mount the propeller in that side of the engine is to avoid pulling on the bolted case.

                    Do you mean that thrust direction is considered by some to be an issue?  Could you explain a bit more?

                    Mark Calder says it is *not* an issue although I'm not sure how he knows this with certainty.

                    -Doug




                    All that said, the setup might not be perfect but it is working, many Luciole are flying (some have done hundreds of hours) with it allowing easy cruise at 90 mph burning 1.2 gallon/h and able of a v max around 120 mph.
                    Jmm

                    --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > the thrust load is peanuts!!! 150 lbs max. That's not an issue
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t0004dh
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 12:21 PM
                    > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kev A" <kevin@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft
                    > Vanguard model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could
                    > still throw away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on
                    > and have had the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature
                    > distribution across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest
                    > part and warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                    > >
                    > > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                    > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                    > >
                    > > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really
                    > makes huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine
                    > bolt-points on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done,
                    > using stays and rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock
                    > base mounts.
                    > >
                    > > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                    >
                    > Are you sure about which way is best to load the crankshaft bearings for
                    > propeller thrust? I have not done the analysis. But I had assumed that
                    > Columban did and he had concluded that the tractor prop was best mounted
                    > on the intake side of the engine for thrust bearing reasons which are
                    > likely more important than other considerations.
                    >
                    > -Doug
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                    > address.
                    >



                    This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail address.
                  • Kev A
                    Hi Mark If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you d need is a
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Mark
                      If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                      So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                      Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                      Cheers
                      Kev
                      PS you could stil have a mag too for charging



                      --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                      > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                      > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                      > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                      > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                      > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                      > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                      > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                      > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                      > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                      >
                      > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                      > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                      > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                      > tickover/starting being most used.
                      >
                      > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                      > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                      > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                      > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                      > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                      > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                      >
                      > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                      > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                      >
                      > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                      > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                      > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                      > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                      >
                      > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                      >
                      > Kev
                      >
                      > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                      > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Morning all,
                      > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                      > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                      > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                      > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                      > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                      > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                      > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                      > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                      > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                      > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                      > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                      > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                      > > I could be wrong.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                      > address.
                      >
                    • Kev A
                      Read the tech stuff from Cirrus Technical Director. Peak EGT is just lean of perfect, then as it gets leaner still the EGT actually falls. Exactly perfect
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Read the tech stuff from Cirrus' Technical Director.

                        Peak EGT is just lean of perfect, then as it gets leaner still the EGT actually falls. Exactly perfect mixture is the hottest of all.

                        Strange but true, I was always brought up to know that lean mixture burned valves, but it turns out that well past perfect nixture is good for crusie and actually cooler.

                        Found this out when installing a leaning device, dead easy to do using tiny plant irrigation hose, barbs and stuff from Hoselock, with a pneumo needle valve for the control. Picks up vac. from a position level with the main jets in the venturis, sends that to the valve then back to the top of the float chamber with a bleed air jet installed in the vent.

                        Cheers

                        Kev

                        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, Peter Walker <peterwalker58@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello
                        > You need to maintain the direction and flow to keep the engine cool The baffles are there to make the airflow go where it is needed to effectively cool the engine The exhaust area is engineered to run hotter and transfer more energy to the cooling air Exhaust valves fail due to running (too) lean of peak
                        > Peter
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Mario Mohl <mario.mohl@...>
                        > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 11:56 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        > That's exactly what I'm saying.
                        > Better to have the air cooling the heads directly than having to flow around the exhaust and get warmed in the process.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:10 PM, GeoB <gab16@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > In that case, the cylinders would be enjoying nicely pre-warmed air
                        > >
                        > >But don't you consider the exhaust valves one of the most critical areas for cooling? I have read that valve failure is statistically a really common failure on aircraft.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >### Lets use this list to build a knowledge base for those who are
                        > >interested in flying with these engines. Don't forget you can search the
                        > >messages archive for past discussions. Please keep comments on subject.
                        > >Sorry, no attachments allowed.
                        > >
                        > >For access to the home page:
                        > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/<
                        > >
                        > >For direct access to the files area:
                        > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Small4-strokeEngines/files/<Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Kev A
                        Briggs has twin standard ball races one side, they will take a certain level of thrust, the thrust from a propeller is peanuts compared to the maximum the
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Briggs has twin standard ball races one side, they will take a certain level of thrust, the thrust from a propeller is peanuts compared to the maximum the bearings are capable of, which is probably around 10 times the most the rig will ever see.

                          Check the bearing manufacturer specs and you will see what I mean; typical thrust max is 100-150 kilos or 1.47kN

                          Kev

                          --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "t0004dh" <glidedog@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Kev A" <kevin@> wrote:
                          > > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                          > >
                          > > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                          > >
                          > > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                          > >
                          > > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                          >
                          > Are you sure about which way is best to load the crankshaft bearings for propeller thrust? I have not done the analysis. But I had assumed that Columban did and he had concluded that the tractor prop was best mounted on the intake side of the engine for thrust bearing reasons which are likely more important than other considerations.
                          >
                          > -Doug
                          >
                        • dagwodzz@bellsouth.net
                          Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            From: Kev A
                            Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                            Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                             
                             

                            Hi Mark
                            If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                            So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                            Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                            Cheers
                            Kev
                            PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                            --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                            > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                            > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                            > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                            > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                            > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                            > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                            > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                            > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                            > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                            >
                            > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                            > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                            > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                            > tickover/starting being most used.
                            >
                            > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                            > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                            > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                            > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                            > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                            > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                            >
                            > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                            > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                            >
                            > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                            > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                            > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                            > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                            >
                            > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                            >
                            > Kev
                            >
                            > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                            > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Morning all,
                            > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                            > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                            > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                            > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                            > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                            > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                            > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                            > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                            > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                            > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                            > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                            > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                            > > I could be wrong.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                            > address.
                            >

                             
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                          • Norman Heistand
                            Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance weight needed is specified. You are correct, this weight is undoubtedly incoporated in the flywheel, or the crank assembly and flywheel are balanced together. See the Hummel Aircraft website for 1/2VW information. The main dynamic balance of the crank is by using counterweights to balance the weight contribution of the rods and pistons. That is why the 1/2VW uses counterweights added to a VW crank which originally had none. Maybe the 4 cylinder VW does not need the counterweights, however the aftermarket performance cranks use them.

                              With the V-Twins, odds are that the crank assembly is well balanced and the flywheel is balanced so when they are put together, very little additional balance would be needed. And if the flywheel is removed, the crank balance may still be good.

                              Norm Heistand  My .02



                              On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, dagwodzz@... <dagwodzz@...> wrote:
                               

                              Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                               
                               
                               
                               
                              -------Original Message-------
                               
                              From: Kev A
                              Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                              Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                               
                               

                              Hi Mark
                              If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                              So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                              Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                              Cheers
                              Kev
                              PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                              --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                              > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                              > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                              > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                              > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                              > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              >
                              > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                              > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                              > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                              > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                              > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                              >
                              > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                              > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                              > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                              > tickover/starting being most used.
                              >
                              > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                              > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                              > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                              > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                              > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                              > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                              >
                              > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                              > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                              >
                              > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                              > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                              > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                              > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                              >
                              > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                              >
                              > Kev
                              >
                              > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                              > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Morning all,
                              > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                              > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                              > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                              > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                              > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                              > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                              > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                              > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                              > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                              > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                              > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                              > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                              > > I could be wrong.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                              > address.
                              >

                               
                              FREE Christmas Animations for your email – by IncrediMail! Click Here!


                            • dagwodzz@bellsouth.net
                              Only speaking for the Generac. The ASSY is balanced. Drilling holes in the flywheel to make it balance. ... From: Norman Heistand Date: 12/7/2012 12:23:19 PM
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Only speaking for the Generac. The ASSY is balanced. Drilling holes in the flywheel to make it balance.   
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                -------Original Message-------
                                 
                                Date: 12/7/2012 12:23:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                 
                                 

                                Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance weight needed is specified. You are correct, this weight is undoubtedly incoporated in the flywheel, or the crank assembly and flywheel are balanced together. See the Hummel Aircraft website for 1/2VW information. The main dynamic balance of the crank is by using counterweights to balance the weight contribution of the rods and pistons. That is why the 1/2VW uses counterweights added to a VW crank which originally had none. Maybe the 4 cylinder VW does not need the counterweights, however the aftermarket performance cranks use them.

                                With the V-Twins, odds are that the crank assembly is well balanced and the flywheel is balanced so when they are put together, very little additional balance would be needed. And if the flywheel is removed, the crank balance may still be good.

                                Norm Heistand  My .02



                                On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, dagwodzz@... <dagwodzz@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                -------Original Message-------
                                 
                                From: Kev A
                                Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                                Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                 
                                 

                                Hi Mark
                                If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                                So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                                Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                                Cheers
                                Kev
                                PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                                --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                                > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                                > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                                > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                                > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                                > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                >
                                > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                                > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                                > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                                > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                                > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                                >
                                > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                                > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                                > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                                > tickover/starting being most used.
                                >
                                > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                                > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                                > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                                > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                                > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                                > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                                >
                                > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                                > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                                >
                                > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                                > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                                > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                                > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                                >
                                > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                                >
                                > Kev
                                >
                                > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                                > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Morning all,
                                > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                                > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                                > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                                > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                                > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                                > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                                > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                                > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                                > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                                > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                                > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                                > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                                > > I could be wrong.
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                                > address.
                                >

                                 
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                              • George Bearden
                                ... I am under the impression that the weight on the prop hub is to help lower the vibration from the rocking couple inherent in the boxer layout. This
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  > Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub.

                                   

                                  I am under the impression that the weight on the prop hub is to help lower the vibration from the rocking couple inherent in the boxer layout. This vibration mode would not exist if both connecting rods were in the same plane, which isn't possible with an opposed twin.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                • Bob
                                  MY 1/2 VW don t use an external weight... Bob Demillo did it his way...Scott Casler puts the external weight on his Hummel Engines... ... From: Norman Heistand
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    MY 1/2 VW don't use an external weight... Bob Demillo did it his way...Scott Casler puts the external weight on his Hummel Engines...
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:20 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                     

                                    Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance weight needed is specified. You are correct, this weight is undoubtedly incoporated in the flywheel, or the crank assembly and flywheel are balanced together. See the Hummel Aircraft website for 1/2VW information. The main dynamic balance of the crank is by using counterweights to balance the weight contribution of the rods and pistons. That is why the 1/2VW uses counterweights added to a VW crank which originally had none. Maybe the 4 cylinder VW does not need the counterweights, however the aftermarket performance cranks use them.

                                    With the V-Twins, odds are that the crank assembly is well balanced and the flywheel is balanced so when they are put together, very little additional balance would be needed. And if the flywheel is removed, the crank balance may still be good.

                                    Norm Heistand  My .02



                                    On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, dagwodzz@... <dagwodzz@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    -------Original Message-------
                                     
                                    From: Kev A
                                    Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                                    Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                     
                                     

                                    Hi Mark
                                    If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                                    So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                                    Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                                    Cheers
                                    Kev
                                    PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                                    --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                                    > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                                    > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                                    > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                                    > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                                    > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    >
                                    > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                                    > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                                    > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                                    > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                                    > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                                    >
                                    > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                                    > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                                    > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                                    > tickover/starting being most used.
                                    >
                                    > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                                    > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                                    > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                                    > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                                    > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                                    > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                                    >
                                    > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                                    > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                                    >
                                    > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                                    > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                                    > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                                    > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                                    >
                                    > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                                    >
                                    > Kev
                                    >
                                    > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                                    > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Morning all,
                                    > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                                    > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                                    > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                                    > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                                    > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                                    > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                                    > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                                    > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                                    > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                                    > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                                    > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                                    > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                                    > > I could be wrong.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                                    > address.
                                    >

                                     
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                                  • Bart Ferguson
                                    Please explain just what Demello did different to do away with the external weight. Thanks, Bart ________________________________ From: Bob
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Please explain just what Demello did different to do away with the external weight. Thanks, Bart



                                      From: Bob <rseverance@...>
                                      To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 8:12 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                       
                                      MY 1/2 VW don't use an external weight... Bob Demillo did it his way...Scott Casler puts the external weight on his Hummel Engines...
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:20 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                       
                                      Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance weight needed is specified. You are correct, this weight is undoubtedly incoporated in the flywheel, or the crank assembly and flywheel are balanced together. See the Hummel Aircraft website for 1/2VW information. The main dynamic balance of the crank is by using counterweights to balance the weight contribution of the rods and pistons. That is why the 1/2VW uses counterweights added to a VW crank which originally had none. Maybe the 4 cylinder VW does not need the counterweights, however the aftermarket performance cranks use them.

                                      With the V-Twins, odds are that the crank assembly is well balanced and the flywheel is balanced so when they are put together, very little additional balance would be needed. And if the flywheel is removed, the crank balance may still be good.

                                      Norm Heistand  My .02



                                      On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, dagwodzz@... <dagwodzz@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      -------Original Message-------
                                       
                                      From: Kev A
                                      Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                                      Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                       
                                       
                                      Hi Mark
                                      If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                                      So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                                      Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                                      Cheers
                                      Kev
                                      PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                                      --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                                      > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                                      > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                                      > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                                      > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                                      > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      >
                                      > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                                      > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                                      > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                                      > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                                      > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                                      >
                                      > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                                      > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                                      > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                                      > tickover/starting being most used.
                                      >
                                      > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                                      > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                                      > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                                      > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                                      > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                                      > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                                      >
                                      > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                                      > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                                      >
                                      > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                                      > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                                      > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                                      > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                                      >
                                      > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                                      >
                                      > Kev
                                      >
                                      > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                      > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                                      > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Morning all,
                                      > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                                      > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                                      > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                                      > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                                      > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                                      > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                                      > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                                      > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                                      > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                                      > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                                      > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                                      > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                                      > > I could be wrong.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                                      > address.
                                      >

                                       
                                      FREE Christmas Animations for your email – by IncrediMail! Click Here!



                                    • Bob
                                      THAT you would have to ask Mr. Demillo... I don t know what he does, but it has been commented by other 1/2 flyers that my engine is very smooth. Bob Severance
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        
                                        THAT you would have to ask Mr. Demillo... I don't know what he does, but it has been commented by other 1/2 flyers that my engine is very smooth.
                                         
                                        Bob Severance
                                        LEU #64H
                                        E038RS - Mini-Mig
                                        Search SAPropbuster on YouTube for videos
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:30 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                        Please explain just what Demello did different to do away with the external weight. Thanks, Bart



                                        From: Bob <rseverance@...>
                                        To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 8:12 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                         
                                        MY 1/2 VW don't use an external weight... Bob Demillo did it his way...Scott Casler puts the external weight on his Hummel Engines...
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:20 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                         
                                        Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance weight needed is specified. You are correct, this weight is undoubtedly incoporated in the flywheel, or the crank assembly and flywheel are balanced together. See the Hummel Aircraft website for 1/2VW information. The main dynamic balance of the crank is by using counterweights to balance the weight contribution of the rods and pistons. That is why the 1/2VW uses counterweights added to a VW crank which originally had none. Maybe the 4 cylinder VW does not need the counterweights, however the aftermarket performance cranks use them.

                                        With the V-Twins, odds are that the crank assembly is well balanced and the flywheel is balanced so when they are put together, very little additional balance would be needed. And if the flywheel is removed, the crank balance may still be good.

                                        Norm Heistand  My .02



                                        On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, dagwodzz@... <dagwodzz@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        -------Original Message-------
                                         
                                        From: Kev A
                                        Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                                        Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                         
                                         
                                        Hi Mark
                                        If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                                        So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                                        Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                                        Cheers
                                        Kev
                                        PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                                        --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                                        > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                                        > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                                        > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                                        > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                                        > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        >
                                        > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                                        > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                                        > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                                        > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                                        >
                                        > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                                        > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                                        > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                                        > tickover/starting being most used.
                                        >
                                        > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                                        > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                                        > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                                        > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                                        > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                                        > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                                        >
                                        > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                                        > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                                        >
                                        > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                                        > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                                        > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                                        > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                                        >
                                        > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                                        >
                                        > Kev
                                        >
                                        > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                                        > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Morning all,
                                        > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                                        > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                                        > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                                        > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                                        > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                                        > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                                        > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                                        > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                                        > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                                        > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                                        > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                                        > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                                        > > I could be wrong.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                                        > address.
                                        >

                                         
                                        FREE Christmas Animations for your email – by IncrediMail! Click Here!



                                      • Bart Ferguson
                                        Alright. Thanks for letting us know. Bart ________________________________ From: Bob To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 7, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          Alright. Thanks for letting us know. Bart


                                          From: Bob <rseverance@...>
                                          To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 8:48 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                           
                                          
                                          THAT you would have to ask Mr. Demillo... I don't know what he does, but it has been commented by other 1/2 flyers that my engine is very smooth.
                                           
                                          Bob Severance
                                          LEU #64H
                                          E038RS - Mini-Mig
                                          Search SAPropbuster on YouTube for videos
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:30 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                          Please explain just what Demello did different to do away with the external weight. Thanks, Bart



                                          From: Bob <rseverance@...>
                                          To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 8:12 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                           
                                          MY 1/2 VW don't use an external weight... Bob Demillo did it his way...Scott Casler puts the external weight on his Hummel Engines...
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:20 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos

                                           
                                          Thats why the 1/2VW engines often get a weight to attach to the prop hub. After the crankshaft assembly is balanced, the location and weight of the balance weight needed is specified. You are correct, this weight is undoubtedly incoporated in the flywheel, or the crank assembly and flywheel are balanced together. See the Hummel Aircraft website for 1/2VW information. The main dynamic balance of the crank is by using counterweights to balance the weight contribution of the rods and pistons. That is why the 1/2VW uses counterweights added to a VW crank which originally had none. Maybe the 4 cylinder VW does not need the counterweights, however the aftermarket performance cranks use them.

                                          With the V-Twins, odds are that the crank assembly is well balanced and the flywheel is balanced so when they are put together, very little additional balance would be needed. And if the flywheel is removed, the crank balance may still be good.

                                          Norm Heistand  My .02



                                          On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, dagwodzz@... <dagwodzz@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          Boys, Be advised. These motors are balanced as an assembly. Meaning all internal and flywheel. Removing the flywheel will through the internal out of balance.   
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          -------Original Message-------
                                           
                                          From: Kev A
                                          Date: 12/7/2012 11:14:19 AM
                                          Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                           
                                           
                                          Hi Mark
                                          If the prop is acting as a flywheel, as you correctly point out, you would ditch the stock flywheel on the other end of the crank. All you'd need is a lightweight spider to carry the whirling magnet for the ignition, and acounterweight on the opposite side.

                                          So you wouldn't have two flywheels opposing each other.

                                          Also, you may not realise but flywheel side has mounting holes too, I've got a pusher trike with redrive, fan cooled so it is hung off the two 8mm top bolt locations close to the inlet manifold/head joint, (which Briggs have kindly beefed up so they must have had this in mind), plus the base holes.

                                          Cheers
                                          Kev
                                          PS you could stil have a mag too for charging

                                          --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com, "Calder, Mark" <mcalder@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Kev, it has to be a lighter installation? He is using the prop as a
                                          > flywheel, he doesn't have opposing torsional forces by using the PTO
                                          > side. The PTO side has tout mounting bolt holes that he uses to support
                                          > the engine. I appreciate the comment about increasing the low end torque
                                          > with the longer intake manifolds. I wonder how hard it is to start?
                                          > Maybe a primer line to the intake would help?
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          >
                                          > From: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                          > [mailto:Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kev A
                                          > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:45 AM
                                          > To: Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [Small4-strokeEngines] Re: Colomban M C 30 B&S photos
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Columban is ridiculously clever, but the French often take unusual
                                          > routes when solving engineering issues, like the backwards way on front
                                          > wheel drive inline Renault 5 we used to own in 1980.
                                          >
                                          > Long inlet ducts can produce better torque, plus throttle-response isn't
                                          > as crucial on an aircraft as it would be a car or bike, we tend to set
                                          > throttle and move it less often, with cruise, full bore or
                                          > tickover/starting being most used.
                                          >
                                          > My only criticism is that if he had bought the taper PTO shaft Vanguard
                                          > model and put the propeller boss on the PTO side, he could still throw
                                          > away the heavy stock flywheel, mount his fancy ignition on and have had
                                          > the exhausts at the front, which would make the temperature distribution
                                          > across them perfect; air blast straight onto the hottest part and
                                          > warming the inlet side to stop icing.
                                          >
                                          > Not only that, with the stock carby and a scoop he could rig ram air
                                          > into the stock manifold for better speed performance.
                                          >
                                          > When you also think the ball races are on that side too, it really makes
                                          > huge sense to hang the prop off that side; there are engine bolt-points
                                          > on the inlet manifold so you can tie it on as I've done, using stays and
                                          > rubber mounts off the inlet and two of the the stock base mounts.
                                          >
                                          > I'd turn his engine round, wonder why he didn't?
                                          >
                                          > Kev
                                          >
                                          > --- In Small4-strokeEngines@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:Small4-strokeEngines%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dagwood"
                                          > <dagwodzz@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Morning all,
                                          > > Looking at the photos of the M C 30 B&S motor. Some interesting
                                          > pieces.There is one thing I think is going to give you problems. If I'm
                                          > seeing this correct. You have routed the intake and carb under the motor
                                          > a long way from the motor.The problem I see you having is. 1 The tubes
                                          > are very long. The carb will most likely not get a strong enough vacuum
                                          > signal to have a good throttle response. Especially in the lower RPM
                                          > range. That and the tubes are big in diameter adding to the problem of
                                          > low air speed needed to pull the fuel up the long distance. One other
                                          > thing. Gas being a coolant. You may find the fuel not atomizing due to
                                          > lack of heat. Fuel will puddle down at low RPM. At high RPM it will try
                                          > and pull up the extra fuel giving you a rich stumble. This condition
                                          > will repeat itself in the intake giving you tuning fits.
                                          > > I could be wrong.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > This message has been processed via your triumphgroup.com e-mail
                                          > address.
                                          >

                                           
                                          FREE Christmas Animations for your email – by IncrediMail! Click Here!





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