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Re: [Slovak-World] Czech translation: sla oferou

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  • Sabo, Gerald
    The churching is the Christian ceremony imitating the Jewish practice and ceremony that is highlighted in Luke s Gospel, Chapter two, when forty days after
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 30, 2013
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      The churching is the Christian ceremony imitating the Jewish practice and
      ceremony that is highlighted in Luke's Gospel, Chapter two, when forty days
      after Jesus' birth Mary and Joseph go to the temple with Jesus and there
      meet Simeon who predicts things about the child and the old woman
      prophetess Anna. One of the traditional names of the Feb. 2nd feastday for
      Catholics is Purification, since there was a cleansing of the woman after
      the impurity suffered in giving birth who could now return to interact with
      the religious community.
      Perhaps an article on any of the above could provide a better
      explanation of this ceremony. I am not sure whether the old edition (teens
      of the tweniteth century) or the new one from 1967 Catholic Encyclopedia
      would have anything on "churching." This may help with "she went," but is
      "oferou" instrumental case of "ofera"? and so "by means of" what?
      Sorry I am unable to do better--Jerry Sabo.


      On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Helen Fedor <helenfedor@...> wrote:

      > Joe,
      >
      > Could it mean that she brought some sort of offering (maybe a symbolic
      > one) to the ceremony and walked around the altar with it???????
      >
      >
      >
      > H
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > From: armata@...
      > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 14:51:24 -0400
      > Subject: [Slovak-World] Czech translation: sla oferou
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I ran across a phrase in Czech I'm having trouble with, and maybe some of
      > you familiar with Czech or from western Slovakia may be able to help. It's
      > describing the churching ritual - the blessing Catholic women used to
      > receive 40 days after giving birth. (You old timers may remember that!)
      >
      > The text says that after the priest blessed the woman she "s~la ofe~rou
      > kolem oltare" . How would that be translated? In the churching ritual, the
      > woman sometimes would kneel before the altar; is that all this means? In
      > that case, is "s~la ofe~rou" a standard expression that means to kneel, or
      > is the author being creative here?
      >
      > The noun ofe~ra seems to refer to the Offertory part of the Mass, so maybe
      > it means she went during the Offertory by/around the altar? But the
      > churching ceremony was a private one, it wasn't done during a Mass, so that
      > doesn't seem to fit.
      >
      > Any input would be appreciated.
      >
      > Joe
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William Brna
      ... Joe, I am somewhat familiar with the rite of churching . My ancestors came from Orava and churching was at least a local practice. Following the
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 30, 2013
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        On 7/30/2013 2:51 PM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:
        >
        > I ran across a phrase in Czech I'm having trouble with, and maybe some
        > of you familiar with Czech or from western Slovakia may be able to
        > help. It's describing the churching ritual - the blessing Catholic
        > women used to receive 40 days after giving birth. (You old timers may
        > remember that!)
        >
        > The text says that after the priest blessed the woman she "s~la
        > ofe~rou kolem oltare" . How would that be translated? In the churching
        > ritual, the woman sometimes would kneel before the altar; is that all
        > this means? In that case, is "s~la ofe~rou" a standard expression that
        > means to kneel, or is the author being creative here?
        >
        > The noun ofe~ra seems to refer to the Offertory part of the Mass, so
        > maybe it means she went during the Offertory by/around the altar? But
        > the churching ceremony was a private one, it wasn't done during a
        > Mass, so that doesn't seem to fit.
        >
        > Any input would be appreciated.
        >
        > Joe
        >
        >
        Joe,

        I am somewhat familiar with the rite of "churching". My ancestors came
        from Orava and "churching" was at least a local practice. Following the
        baptism of a baby, the mother knelt at a side altar and received a
        blessing from the parish priest, partly in thanksgiving for a successful
        delivery. The mother was then received into full communion with the church.

        Bill Brna


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Helen Fedor
        A good idea, Jerry. Here s the article on Churching that I found in the online Catholic Encyclopedia . I ll check an older
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 30, 2013
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          A good idea, Jerry.
          Here's the article on Churching that I found in the online Catholic Encyclopedia < http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ >. I'll check an older print version of the encyclopedia tomorrow.
          H

          A blessing given by the Church to mothers after recovery from childbirth. Only a Catholic woman who has given birth to a child in legitimate wedlock, provided she has not allowed the child to be baptized outside the Catholic Church, is entitled to it. It is not a precept, but a pious and praiseworthy custom (Rituale Romanum), dating from the early Christian ages, for a mother to present herself in the Church as soon as she is able to leave her house (St. Charles Borromeo, First Council of Milan), to render thanks to God for her happy delivery, and to obtain by means of the priestly blessing the graces necessary to bring up her child in a Christian manner. The prayers indicate that this blessing is intended solely for the benefit of the mother, and hence it is not necessary that she should bring the child with her; nevertheless, in many places the pious and edifying custom prevails of specially dedicating the child to God. For, as the Mother of Christ carried her Child to the Temple to offer Him to the Eternal Father, so a Christian mother is anxious to present her offspring to God and obtain for it the blessing of the Church. This blessing, in the ordinary form, without change or omission, is to be given to the mother, even if her child was stillborn, or has died without baptism (Cong. Sac. Rit., 19 May, 1896).
          The churching of women is not a strictly parochial function, yet the Congregation of Sacred Rites (21 November, 1893) decided that a parish priest, if asked to give it, must do so, and if another priest is asked to perform the rite, he may do so in any church or public oratory, provided the superior of said church or oratory be notified. It must be imparted in a church or in a place in which Mass is celebrated, as the very name "churching" is intended to suggest a pilgrimage of thanksgiving to the church, and as the rubrics indicate in the expressions: "desires to come to the church", "he conducts her into the church", shekneels before the altar", etc. Hence the Second Plenary Council of Baltimore (No. 246) prohibits the practice of churching in places in which Mass is not celebrated.
          The mother, kneeling in the vestibule, or within the church, and carrying a lighted candle, awaits the priest, who, vested in surplice and white stole, sprinkles her with holy water in the form of a cross. Having recited Psalm 23, "The earth is the Lord'sand the fullness thereof", he offers her the left extremity of the stole and leads her into the church, saying: "Enter thou into the temple of God, adore the Son of the Blessed Virgin Mary who has given thee fruitfulness of offspring." She advances to one of the altars and kneels before it, whilst the priest, turned towards her, recites a prayer which expresses the object of the blessing, and then, having sprinkled her again with holy water in the form of the cross, dismisses her, saying: "The peace and blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, descend upon thee, and remain forever. Amen."

          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          From: gsabo@...
          Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:59:53 -0400
          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Czech translation: sla oferou


























          The churching is the Christian ceremony imitating the Jewish practice and

          ceremony that is highlighted in Luke's Gospel, Chapter two, when forty days

          after Jesus' birth Mary and Joseph go to the temple with Jesus and there

          meet Simeon who predicts things about the child and the old woman

          prophetess Anna. One of the traditional names of the Feb. 2nd feastday for

          Catholics is Purification, since there was a cleansing of the woman after

          the impurity suffered in giving birth who could now return to interact with

          the religious community.

          Perhaps an article on any of the above could provide a better

          explanation of this ceremony. I am not sure whether the old edition (teens

          of the tweniteth century) or the new one from 1967 Catholic Encyclopedia

          would have anything on "churching." This may help with "she went," but is

          "oferou" instrumental case of "ofera"? and so "by means of" what?

          Sorry I am unable to do better--Jerry Sabo.



          On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Helen Fedor <helenfedor@...> wrote:



          > Joe,

          >

          > Could it mean that she brought some sort of offering (maybe a symbolic

          > one) to the ceremony and walked around the altar with it???????

          >

          >

          >

          > H

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

          > From: armata@...

          > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 14:51:24 -0400

          > Subject: [Slovak-World] Czech translation: sla oferou

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > I ran across a phrase in Czech I'm having trouble with, and maybe some of

          > you familiar with Czech or from western Slovakia may be able to help. It's

          > describing the churching ritual - the blessing Catholic women used to

          > receive 40 days after giving birth. (You old timers may remember that!)

          >

          > The text says that after the priest blessed the woman she "s~la ofe~rou

          > kolem oltare" . How would that be translated? In the churching ritual, the

          > woman sometimes would kneel before the altar; is that all this means? In

          > that case, is "s~la ofe~rou" a standard expression that means to kneel, or

          > is the author being creative here?

          >

          > The noun ofe~ra seems to refer to the Offertory part of the Mass, so maybe

          > it means she went during the Offertory by/around the altar? But the

          > churching ceremony was a private one, it wasn't done during a Mass, so that

          > doesn't seem to fit.

          >

          > Any input would be appreciated.

          >

          > Joe

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >

          >

          >

          > ------------------------------------

          >

          > Yahoo! Groups Links

          >

          >

          >

          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Dubelko
          I took a history class a few years back in which I read a book about peasant culture in the early modern European era. If I recall correctly, pregnant women
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 30, 2013
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            I took a history class a few years back in which I read a book about
            peasant culture in the early modern European era. If I recall correctly,
            pregnant women were banned from attending mass. Women were considered to
            be "unclean" when pregnant and they were kept away from the church--as well
            as away from men, during their pregnancy. After giving birth, the woman
            was "welcomed" back to the church in a cleansing ritual administered by a
            priest.

            Jim Dubelko


            On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:40 PM, William Brna <wfbrna@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > On 7/30/2013 2:51 PM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:
            > >
            > > I ran across a phrase in Czech I'm having trouble with, and maybe some
            > > of you familiar with Czech or from western Slovakia may be able to
            > > help. It's describing the churching ritual - the blessing Catholic
            > > women used to receive 40 days after giving birth. (You old timers may
            > > remember that!)
            > >
            > > The text says that after the priest blessed the woman she "s~la
            > > ofe~rou kolem oltare" . How would that be translated? In the churching
            > > ritual, the woman sometimes would kneel before the altar; is that all
            > > this means? In that case, is "s~la ofe~rou" a standard expression that
            > > means to kneel, or is the author being creative here?
            > >
            > > The noun ofe~ra seems to refer to the Offertory part of the Mass, so
            > > maybe it means she went during the Offertory by/around the altar? But
            > > the churching ceremony was a private one, it wasn't done during a
            > > Mass, so that doesn't seem to fit.
            > >
            > > Any input would be appreciated.
            > >
            > > Joe
            > >
            > >
            > Joe,
            >
            > I am somewhat familiar with the "churching" rite. My ancestors are from
            > Orava and the rite was performed right after the child was baptized.
            > The new mother knelt before a side altar and the priest who baptized the
            > child, prayed and welcomed the mother back into the church. I don't
            > know whether this was a local practice or not, but I do know that my
            > sister-in-law was welcomed back into full communion with the church
            > after her son was born.
            >
            > Bill Brna
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Jim Dubelko
            6051 Sandpiper Lane
            North Olmsted, OH 44070
            *cell: *440-829-8801
            *home:* 440-734-7858


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Daniel E. Miller
            Greetings! I m not that old (I am about to turn 59, so it s a matter of opinion), and I remember how my mother was shocked that my sister-in-law did not get
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 31, 2013
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              Greetings!

              I'm not that old (I am about to turn 59, so it's a matter of opinion), and I remember how my mother was shocked that my sister-in-law did not "get churched" after having her first baby in 1967.  My sister-in-law did not even know what it was.  Since we were in a non-Slavic atmosphere in a borough of Pittsburgh where most of the church goers were from the suburbs, I assumed this was a rite that had gone the way of the Latin mass.  The phrase has brought back memories for me.

              Take care!

              Dan Miller




              ________________________________
              From: James Dubelko <jdubelko@...>
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:31 PM
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Czech translation: sla oferou


              I took a history class a few years back in which I read a book about
              peasant culture in the early modern European era. If I recall correctly,
              pregnant women were banned from attending mass.  Women were considered to
              be "unclean" when pregnant and they were kept away from the church--as well
              as away from men, during their pregnancy.  After giving birth, the woman
              was "welcomed" back to the church in a cleansing ritual administered by a
              priest.

              Jim Dubelko


              On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:40 PM, William Brna <wfbrna@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > On 7/30/2013 2:51 PM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:
              > >
              > > I ran across a phrase in Czech I'm having trouble with, and maybe some
              > > of you familiar with Czech or from western Slovakia may be able to
              > > help. It's describing the churching ritual - the blessing Catholic
              > > women used to receive 40 days after giving birth. (You old timers may
              > > remember that!)
              > >
              > > The text says that after the priest blessed the woman she "s~la
              > > ofe~rou kolem oltare" . How would that be translated? In the churching
              > > ritual, the woman sometimes would kneel before the altar; is that all
              > > this means? In that case, is "s~la ofe~rou" a standard expression that
              > > means to kneel, or is the author being creative here?
              > >
              > > The noun ofe~ra seems to refer to the Offertory part of the Mass, so
              > > maybe it means she went during the Offertory by/around the altar? But
              > > the churching ceremony was a private one, it wasn't done during a
              > > Mass, so that doesn't seem to fit.
              > >
              > > Any input would be appreciated.
              > >
              > > Joe
              > >
              > >
              > Joe,
              >
              > I am somewhat familiar with the "churching" rite. My ancestors are from
              > Orava and the rite was performed right after the child was baptized.
              > The new mother knelt before a side altar and the priest who baptized the
              > child, prayed and welcomed the mother back into the church. I don't
              > know whether this was a local practice or not, but I do know that my
              > sister-in-law was welcomed back into full communion with the church
              > after her son was born.
              >
              > Bill Brna
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              >



              --
              Jim Dubelko
              6051 Sandpiper Lane
              North Olmsted, OH  44070
              *cell: *440-829-8801
              *home:* 440-734-7858


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Armata, Joseph R
              Thanks to all! I got an email from a Czech speaker who indicated that ofe~rou here meant with an offering , so she went round the altar with an offering
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 31, 2013
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                Thanks to all! I got an email from a Czech speaker who indicated that "ofe~rou" here meant "with an offering", so "she went round the altar with an offering" . That instrumental ending of ofe~rou was confusing for me.

                The article I'm plowing through is talking about Czech and Slovak customs after birth in the 19th and very early 20th century. For six weeks / 40 days the mother was excused from church or any other duties (woohoo, six weeks off!). She was supposed to remain in bed behind a curtain with her baby, though that may not have been always strictly followed. This was not only important for the protection and health of mother and baby (infant deaths were common), but there was magical thinking involved too. The mother had used up all her fertility in giving birth, and if she went about tending the crops or visiting young healthy women, all their fertility and life would naturally flow into her, leading to crop failure and infertile women. We can't have that! After a few weeks, her fertility batteries had recharged, and she could resume normal life without endangering the environment around her. The churching rite made that change in status official, and it was regarded more as a blessing of the mother and a thanksgiving for a happy birth than a purification.

                Joe
              • Helen Fedor
                So I was right in my semi-wild guess! Modern-day medicine also dictates that a new mother shouldn t drive, go back to a workplace, or do anything strenuous for
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 31, 2013
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                  So I was right in my semi-wild guess!



                  Modern-day medicine also dictates that a new mother shouldn't drive, go back to a workplace, or do anything strenuous for 6 weeks after giving birth.



                  For a woman, anytime a flow of blood was involved, the result was impurity. I'm sure that stretches way back into history, back beyond Old Testament times.


                  H




                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  From: armata@...
                  Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 10:09:41 -0400
                  Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Czech translation: sla oferou





                  Thanks to all! I got an email from a Czech speaker who indicated that "ofe~rou" here meant "with an offering", so "she went round the altar with an offering" . That instrumental ending of ofe~rou was confusing for me.

                  The article I'm plowing through is talking about Czech and Slovak customs after birth in the 19th and very early 20th century. For six weeks / 40 days the mother was excused from church or any other duties (woohoo, six weeks off!). She was supposed to remain in bed behind a curtain with her baby, though that may not have been always strictly followed. This was not only important for the protection and health of mother and baby (infant deaths were common), but there was magical thinking involved too. The mother had used up all her fertility in giving birth, and if she went about tending the crops or visiting young healthy women, all their fertility and life would naturally flow into her, leading to crop failure and infertile women. We can't have that! After a few weeks, her fertility batteries had recharged, and she could resume normal life without endangering the environment around her. The churching rite made that change in status official, and it was regarded more as a blessing of the mother and a thanksgiving for a happy birth than a purification.

                  Joe







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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