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Re: German Mahren

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  • votrubam
    ... Old Slavs used the word _morava_ or its plural _moravy_ to indicate marsh(es). In those days, they pronounced the modern [v] as [w]. The neighboring
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 4, 2012
      > Morava and Mähren and Moravia 
      > translations of one another.

      Old Slavs used the word _morava_ or its plural _moravy_ to indicate marsh(es). In those days, they pronounced the modern [v] as [w]. The neighboring Germanic tribes missed the [w] and adopted the place name name as Ma"hren, it eventually gave name to the whole Margraviate of Moravia. Several small, historically marshy localities scattered in the Slavic countries are called that, not just the two better known rivers.

      The loss of the Old Slavic [w] when a place name was adopted into a neighboring non-Slavic language happened with some regularity.

      ----- E.g., Pankow (originally a Slavic place name), an elegant borough of the former communist-ruled part of Berlin, is pronounced [panko] by Berliners, not [pankof] as one might expect.

      ----- Liptov (pronounced [liptow] then by the Slovaks' ancestors) was adopted as Lipto by the Ugric tribes when they arrived around 900 CE; Novohrad, originally Nov Grad ("New Castle") became Nograd in Hungarian, etc.


      Martin
    • Helen Fedor
      What struck me about the name Marchevka is that, in the Zemplin dialect (one of the eastern ones, as is the Spis~ dialect), it means carrot . H To:
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 5, 2012
        What struck me about the name Marchevka is that, in the Zemplin dialect (one of the eastern ones, as is the Spis~ dialect), it means 'carrot'.

        H




        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        From: senzus@...
        Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:31:18 -0700
        Subject: [Slovak-World] German Mahren





        Background for this topic:

        SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com


        Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:47 PMVilo, I changed the topic to 'German Mahren' in case you didn't see it.
        It's questionable if name etymology is off-topic. But if you do move it to
        SW then let me know.

        Peter M.

        On 5 July 2012 08:39, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:

        Ron,


        I would like to further argue but on Slovak World because itt is rather

        off Roots.


        Awe c'mon!, it's fun an' intrestin'. Besides, Martin might get in to it..


        Z Bohom,


        Vilo


        From: Ron <amiak27@...>

        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 1:09 PM


        Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka


        Vilo,


        We disagree, but I am happy for the conversation and thoughts to consider.


        Yes, mention of the Morava River in Serbia is relevant simply because it

        is sometimes confused with the Slovak-Czech Morava, and anyone researching

        or reading about it should be aware, so they can avoid the confusion

        themselves. There are even historians who have argued that Greater Moravia

        was centered in Serbia rather than in Czecho-Slovakia.


        On another point, I do not consider Morava and Mähren and Moravia

        translations of one another. That would be like saying the Moldau and

        Vltava are translations, when in reality they are two different names for

        the same river.


        Related, perhaps is the example Zuzanna and Zsuzsanna in Slovak and

        Hungarian, differences in orthography of the different languages. We also

        must consider how the orthography (spelling) has changed over time as

        writing standards change.


        150 years ago we would have said the Neanderthal skeleton was found in the

        Neanderthal Valley. Today we say the Neanderthal skeleton was found in the

        Neandertal Valley, a change in orthography, but not in the proper name.


        Ron


        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth"


        Ron,

        Your statement, and should not even address the other Morava River in

        Serbia,

        "Die Morava (serbisch �'�µ�»�¸�º�°

        Ã�Å"Ã�¾Ã`€Ã�°Ã�²Ã�°/Velika Morava, deutsch

        auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und

        Hauptfluss

        Serbiens.".

        The Morava mentioned in Slovakia would be Western Slovak border which

        emptiest into the Danube which would be translated into Austrian German.Â

        In Eastern Slovakia, the German would come from the early settlements there

        by Germans.


        I am interested and do not mean to "correct" you.

        Z Bohom,


        From: Ron <amiak27@...>

        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:50 AM

        Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka

        For anyone having trouble reading this or any message with accent marks,

        go to "View", "Character Encoding" and choose "UTF-8"


        Peter, what readings lead you to believe Marchevka is based on German? I

        am fluent in German and working on learning Slovak, so I am familiar with

        how similar some of the words can be in different languages and how easy it

        is to err in ascribing certain relationships.


        It is handy to check things on www.google.de to get a German

        perspective, which is often closer to the usual European view, as opposed

        to our views from the USA. Sometimes there is much more detailed


        In this case a quick look at the German Wiki entry yields "Die March

        (tschechisch und slowakisch Morava, lat. Marus) ist ein linker Nebenfluss

        der Donau in Mitteleuropa. Sie entwässert etwa drei Viertel des nach ihr

        benannten Mähren und ist dessen Hauptfluss."


        and that does not even address the other Morava River in Serbia,

        "Die Morava (serbisch �'�µ�»�¸�º�°

        Ã�Å"Ã�¾Ã`€Ã�°Ã�²Ã�°/Velika Morava, deutsch auch Große Morava) ist

        ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und Hauptfluss Serbiens."


        Also, why would you take it to the German and not to the older Latin?


        Ron

        In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:


        Vilo, Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah] - From my readings, I'm pretty sure

        that > this name is based on the German *Mähren* -> mährische for

        Moravian. So > the name Marchevka and Marhefka are related in this way.

        I'm interested in this name as I think it is related to Morav (Slav)

        versions - eg Moravka - Moravko - Morafko - Marafko and so on.

        Do you think this is a possiblity?


        Peter M.


        On 4 July 2012 15:22, William C. Wormuth <senzus@> wrote:

        Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah].
        http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/Marchevka/Jakubany/


        From: "stibila@" <stibila@>

        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:55 AM


        Subject: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka


        Josif, Joseph, was born in Jakubany to Joannes Stucka, Stuczka, and

        Anna

        Marchevka, Marhefka. Josif was born in 1929 and is my Mother's

        brother. He

        moved to Czechoslovakia, somewhere around 1945 but before 1970. His

        wife

        was Maria, last name maybe Verka. They had 4 daughters. He may still

        be

        alive but we have no way of communicating with relatives in

        Jakubany. If

        any one knows anything about Josif, please post to the message board.

        Someone did send me 2 Stucka phone numbers in Czech Republic and
        I
        called them, but they did not speak English.

        ________________________________
        From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
        To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 11:04 AM
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE



        Below is todays article in the Kúty News article concerning the subject.

        http://kuty.sk/

        Vilo

        ________________________________
        From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
        To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:53 PM
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE

        Helena,

        Diki Vam!

        S Panem Bohom,

        Vilo

        ________________________________
        From: Helen Fedor <helenfedor@...>
        To: Slovak World <slovak-world@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:58 PM
        Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE

        Ahoj Vilo,I just hope it pans out for your friends.
        H

        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        From: senzus@...
        Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 15:33:42 -0700
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE

        Helen,

        Thanks, I forwarded all messages and I gave them your name and email. address. The message is very long but if you want a copy, I will send.Helen thanks again for your input.

        S Panem Bohem,

        Vilo

        ________________________________

        From: Helen Fedor <helenfedor@...>

        To: Slovak World <slovak-world@yahoogroups.com>

        Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:50 PM

        Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE

        Vilo,Have the two men been in contact with UL'UV? If I'm not mistaken, they planned to do a survey and document all the kroje in the country. About 30 years ago, I was allowed to take photos of the drawings they'd made of the traditional kroje in my two ancestral villages (women's warm weather everyday, men's wintertime overcoats, etc.). I don't know if they ever published the materials as a book or series of books, but maybe they could see the original materials. H

        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

        From: senzus@...

        Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 21:32:21 -0700

        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE

        Barbara,

        It is sad and the same thing is occurring in Slovakia. In "My Town", Kúty, Zahorie, Western Slovakia

        In January, I received emails from two men, Richard Drs~ka Drrrsh-kah] and Filip Hus~t'ava [Huhshtya-vah], requesting Photos of original kroje and other historical info from our immegrants here in Johnstown, NY. Their intention is to preserve them, locally in a yet to be built museum. Richard is employed in the Zahorie muzeum in Skalica [Skahlee-tsah]. They are working with people from
        Moravia who are expert in Kroje making and preservation.

        On Thursday, I was reading news from our kuty.sk site and saw that Filip has scheduled a gathering of youth, to teach our traditional Polka and Waltz waltz. He wants them to be prepared for dancing during our Hody [Hoh-dee] the yearly celebration of the consecration of our church, (ST. Josephs), held on the weekend closest to the feast of Our Lady of Snows, (Panenka Maria Sniez~u) (August 5th).

        I hope that this preservation work will occur in communities all over Slovakia, preserving our beautiful cultural heritage.

        Barbara, you are to be commended for your contributions and I would suggest you let the kids know how hurt your feelings are.

        S Panem Bohom,

        Vilo

        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:48 PM

        Subject: [Slovak-World] SLOVAK HERITAGE

        All my ancestors are from Slovakia,I am second and third generation american. I have 4 sisters we do live far apart. I have 6 grown children. We grew up with Christmas and Easter Slovak traditions and food alike through out the year. I have raised my children with the traditions and the food in which I still make today. I have never been to Slovakia finances set me back from going.But I love to draw and have drawn many a scenery from pictures of Slovakia. I also listen to Slovak folk music and do much embroidery.I even made an heirloom wallhanging of the villages and pictures of the ancestors. My next attempt is to try Pysanky eggs. I have taught my daughters to cook,sew,other various crafts, housekeep,garden. I do have many documents
        of my ancestors including a 1857 book in the Czech language "Life of Jesus Christ" that my great grandfather brought here. What bothers me is that none of my children are interested in our heritage as well as my sisters.

        And I live here in rural Kentucky so not too many people care either.Can anyone give me some suggestions. I love my heritage and I think it is important it has such a beautiful culture and I am afraid that it is dying out in this family. Messages in this topic (13)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • votrubam
        ... That s what it is in Polish, too (marchew/marchewka). Both marchevka and mrkva, as well as the (north and east) German Mo hre (earlier also Morke/Mokra),
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 5, 2012
          > What struck me about the name Marchevka is that,
          > in the Zemplin dialect (one of the eastern ones, as
          > is the Spis~ dialect), it means 'carrot'.

          That's what it is in Polish, too (marchew/marchewka). Both marchevka and mrkva, as well as the (north and east) German Mo"hre (earlier also Morke/Mokra), are linked to an old word for "root." The word used in the sense of "carrot" probably went from Germanic to Slavic (the -v- was added in Slavic declensions and eventually migrated to the nominative).


          Martin
        • Peter M
          Well that s fascinating and very significant to the work I m doing. So Marchevka (root meaning root ) has been otherwise spelt as Marhefka, which I assumed to
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 5, 2012
            Well that's fascinating and very significant to the work I'm doing.
            So Marchevka (root meaning 'root') has been otherwise spelt as Marhefka, which I assumed to be of German origin from Mähren. If Marhefka means something else, then I'd be interested in that very much.

            Thanks

            Peter M.

            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "votrubam" <votrubam@...> wrote:
            >
            > > What struck me about the name Marchevka is that,
            > > in the Zemplin dialect (one of the eastern ones, as
            > > is the Spis~ dialect), it means 'carrot'.
            >
            > That's what it is in Polish, too (marchew/marchewka). Both marchevka and mrkva, as well as the (north and east) German Mo"hre (earlier also Morke/Mokra), are linked to an old word for "root." The word used in the sense of "carrot" probably went from Germanic to Slavic (the -v- was added in Slavic declensions and eventually migrated to the nominative).
            >
            >
            > Martin
            >
          • votrubam
            ... Impossible; no historical or linguistic grounds for assuming that. It is a Polish and East-Slovak word for carrot (it may also occur as a regional
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 5, 2012
              > Marhefka, which I assumed to be of German origin from Mähren.

              Impossible; no historical or linguistic grounds for "assuming" that. It is a Polish and East-Slovak word for "carrot" (it may also occur as a regional word elsewhere in the Slavic-speaking area). The meaning "root" was only present in old-Old German, and had already shifted to "carrot" by the Middle German period, but German never had the -v- in it -- that was inserted after the word entered the Slavic languages. The family name Marhefka means "carrot" and is Slavic in origin.


              Martin
            • Peter M
              Thanks Martin. I m happy that s been cleared up. Peter M.
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 6, 2012
                Thanks Martin. I'm happy that's been cleared up.
                Peter M.

                --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "votrubam" <votrubam@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Marhefka, which I assumed to be of German origin from Mähren.
                >
                > Impossible; no historical or linguistic grounds for "assuming" that. It is a Polish and East-Slovak word for "carrot" (it may also occur as a regional word elsewhere in the Slavic-speaking area). The meaning "root" was only present in old-Old German, and had already shifted to "carrot" by the Middle German period, but German never had the -v- in it -- that was inserted after the word entered the Slavic languages. The family name Marhefka means "carrot" and is Slavic in origin.
                >
                >
                > Martin
                >
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