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Re: [Slovak-World] Re: The Moravian Question

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  • LongJohn Wayne
    Let s ask the dead.  And those imprisoned.   Their opinions & experiences should also count. ________________________________ From: Ron
    Message 1 of 26 , May 15, 2012
      Let's ask the dead.  And those imprisoned.   Their opinions & experiences should also count.



      ________________________________
      From: Ron <amiak27@...>
      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 10:43 PM
      Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: The Moravian Question


       
      Vilo,

      Did you also see some attitude of morality in it all? I ran across a few where people had the attitude 'we are all in this together and we are working for the common good. We are improving everyone's life. We are morally superior to you in the west with your drive for material wealth and selfishness."

      I would like to know if you did run across any conversation or attitude like that, and what you thought of the people. Were they motivated by morality or by political one up-manship?

      Ron

      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
      >
      > Those whom I heard say this were older people who complained selectively as" we were better off....we had the ambulance come when we wanted to go to the doctor and now I have to take the train...theyhad only minor complaints like this.
      >
      > S Panem Bohem,
      >
      > Vilo
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthehey
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      > Vilowarrior@...>
      > To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 6:04 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: The Moravian Question
      >
      >
      >  
      > Yes, we were all equally poor.
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Peter M <htcstech@...>
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 6:35 AM
      > Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: The Moravian Question
      >
      >  
      > lol - I have heard that before! I also have relatives that are saddened by the loss of the 'old times' of Soviet control. They say that things were better then. Things were predictable and everyone had security.
      > Peter M.
      >
      > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Maybe we should put back the Austo-Hungarian empire?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@>
      > > To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 6:06 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: The Moravian Question
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > Peter,
      > > Have you or do you live in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, or Hungary? 
      > > Ben
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Peter M <htcstech@>
      > > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 4:50 AM
      > > Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: The Moravian Question
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > Hello Martin,
      > >
      > > There is a certain sense of political correctness in what you write. I live in a very multicultural society that includes hundreds of 'tribes' of indigenous peoples, and very generally speaking, there is acceptance by all of the nature of this society. I'm speaking holistically here. As you rightly point out, ethnicity and statehood in Europe is also characterised by the same acceptance.
      > > That's the official line and everybody believes it and works within this ideological framework.
      > > There are problems though, and it is the responsibility of the governing bodies to try and either assimilate the population (doesn't work) or provide resources (both human and material) that makes life easier for the ethnic populations and educates the rest to arrive at a workable level of acceptance and co-operation, for the sake of peace, a good economy and cultural diversity.
      > > These are basic tenants of a modern multicultural society. Note that I haven't as yet mentioned any specific 'nation'. This applies to all countries.
      > > Now when we look at specific countries like HU/SK/CZ/RO/, all of them have issues with ethnic groups that are of foreign origins.
      > > There are significant portions of Romania that include German, Slovak and Magyar settlements for example. The same in Slovakia, Czech and Hungary. It's how each deals with their their ethnicities that causes alarm in my mind.
      > >
      > > I come here via the Slovak genealogy group where ethnicity and race are aspects that lead onto good research. I want to find my roots, and what I've discovered has irritated me and made me somewhat angry.
      > > All I can do is to support those who are trying to remedy the situation and at least, let others know what is actually happening.
      > >
      > > As for the Moravian 'ethnics' or should I say 'Moravians' as what you wrote has dispossessed them of the status of ethnicity, comes the saying that my departed father once told me, that "We are from Morva Orsag" ~ meaning that we are from the country of Moravia.
      > > I agree with you that the political separatist movement is in dead water and as well that many Moravians don't distinguish themselves as such, unaware of any cultural differences that might exist. Those who do however all group together under the banner of Morva Nationalism.
      > >
      > > The issues do exist and a politically correct viewpoint just devalues its significance.
      > >
      > > Here in Australia, about 50% of the population is ethnic. There has been a lot of work done here by governments, think tanks and social organisations to work on ethnic issues over the past 60 years. It's not perfect but a lot of ground has been covered. From that standpoint and world view, I find the Slovak-Magyar one-upmanship child like and irresponsible on both sides.
      > > Mind you, my Slovakian family who are multi-lingual Hungarian ethnics (the whole town is Magyar) have absolutely no problems. They are happy to be Slovak citizens, send their children to the Hungarian elementary school and Slovak high schools and are proud of their heritage.
      > >
      > > Regards
      > >
      > > Peter M
      > >
      > > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "votrubam" <votrubam@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > A very important topic, Peter, a key source of massive misunderstanding between Central Europe and the English-speaking world (from academia through foreign policy). The problem kicks in with the English word _nation_ used as an equivalent of _narod_, and the other way round, by both sides.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > that these restrictions apply to all
      > > > > Slovak citizens is moot considering that any
      > > > > Slovak ethnic group are Slovaks.
      > > >
      > > > That is not the way citizenship (obcianstvo) and ethnicity (narodnost) are understood in Central Europe. The citizens of Slovakia ("Slovak citizens" for short) are Slovaks, Hungarians, Rusyns, Czechs... Obcianstvo is determied by the law on citizenship, narodnost is each person's free choice (with no legal consequences and freely changeable throughout their lives). Only you (or your parents when you're a child) decide what you call yourself.
      > > >
      > > > For instance, Rudolf Schuster, Slovakia's president a while back, called himself, and was in the Central European understanding, a _German_ (born in Slovakia). The Slovaks happily elected him their president knowing that he was a German. He was not a "Slovak," did not want to be a Slovak, and no one wanted him to be a Slovak. That's "normal" in Central Europe. The same applies to all the traditional minorities in Slovakia (and elsewhere in Central Europe). They do not use the name of the country as a label for themselves, many find it offensive. They only speak of themselves as Slovak citizens (Slovak = adjective, attribute), but not as "Slovaks" (noun).
      > > >
      > > > That's how people's take on citizenship and identity differs in Central Europe from the "Anglo" take on these things. The Central Europeans, majorities and minorities, are happy with that. It is not a source of friction. Quite the contrary: an attempt to change it, e.g., if the authorities began to call the Hungarians in Slovakia "Slovaks," would probably have dire consequences (as it did for the Kingdom of Hungary: it broke the kingdom up). But it doesn't occur to anyone, Slovaks or Hungarians, to do something so at odds with their reality today. Only some English speakers come up with the alien and destructive idea on occasion that, e.g., each Slovak (Polish, German, etc.) citizen should be called a Slovak (etc.). "Whew," is the Central Europeans' incredulous response.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > territory to a newly formed Republic of Moravia.
      > > >
      > > > That's a perspective of a tiny fraction of the population. Over 80 percent of those in Moravia don't even call themselves Moravians, they call themselves Czechs. Those of them who'd want a Republic of Moravia are about as relevant as those who speak of "Aztlan" in the U.S.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > My point being that the Czech government doesn't want to
      > > > > see Moravians as different
      > > >
      > > > Again, the government, Czech or regional Moravian, has nothing to do with that today. What ethnicity people ascribe to themselves is entirely the people's call. There is absolutely no governmental involvement in people's ethnicity (Czech or other), the government has jurisdiction only over their citizenship.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > yet they saw Slovaks as an ethnic group.
      > > >
      > > > (If you wish, Peter, or anyone, we can take the intricate SK--CZ status in Czechoslovakia under a separate "Subject:", just say so.) There was a clear and substantial difference -- Moravia was always ruled by Prague in the past millennium, while the Slovak-majority counties (Slovakia) were in a separate country for 900 years, under Budapest, not under Prague.
      > > >
      > > > By contrast to Slovakia, the Margraviate of Moravia was an inalienable, hereditary body politic under the Crown of Bohemia, not a separate country, during that time. In other words, whoever was the King of Bohemia was also the Margrave of Moravia. As a result, the popular perspective from Bohemia saw the people in Moravia, a province of one larger country, as little different from, e.g., the largely disappeared colorful _Chods_ [pron.: hod-] in south-western Bohemia: "Czechs with an attribute."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Martin
      > > >
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