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Re: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city

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  • Marilyn Murphy
    Martin My spouse and I had a phenomenal visit 2 years ago. We met several extended family members in both the east and the west of Slovakia All were quite
    Message 1 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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      Martin
      My spouse and I had a phenomenal visit 2 years ago. We met several extended family members in both the east and the west of Slovakia All were quite engaging. We discussed history and architecture, beliefs, art, you name it. We saw castles and cathedrals, villages and cities. We were in the Tatry where their enthusiasm for local skiing was infectious (and I am not a skier) we all marveled at some similarities between the families that spanned the years of no communication. The train trip across the country was fascinating. We spent 2 very short weeks which only served to whet out desire to return. There was never a lack of things to do or see or discuss. Some of the younger members if the family had lived abroad but returned to raise their children. All in all we were presented with a very positive concept if life in present day Slovakia
      Marilyn


      Sent from my iPhone

      On May 1, 2012, at 12:21 AM, "votrubam" <votrubam@...> wrote:

      > > I wish more people here would visit.
      >
      > Well, yes, Vilo, but Slovakia, or rather, Slovaks are rather lacking when it comes to providing services. A lot of Slovak bloggers comment on that, many say, for instance, that they prefer to go skiing to pricier Austria, because they get so much more for their money. Others speak of nothing to do after a day of looking at historical towns or hiking, of incompetent or dismissive service personnel. The difference between the Slovak and Polish side of the Tatras, for instance, is quite astonishing in this respect, although Poland has just a small and substantially less attractive part of the mountains.
      >
      > Martin
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • votrubam
      ... Thanks for sharing, Marilyn. I ve rarely heard less than enthusiastic accounts by Americans. I wonder whether the difference from the experiences Slovaks
      Message 2 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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        > had a phenomenal visit 2 years ago.

        Thanks for sharing, Marilyn. I've rarely heard less than enthusiastic accounts by Americans.

        I wonder whether the difference from the experiences Slovaks commonly relate may partly be due to the Americans often visiting their friends and family (= a buffer between a lot of the direct interactions and program organizers), while the Slovaks talk of vacationing on their own; and to the Slovaks' staying in less costly establishments, being more concerned with their budgets and expecting more for what's a lot of money for them.

        A cultural difference that may contribute is the Americans' perennial enthusiasm about what they do (however trivial -- A: "Let's meet on Friday." B: "Great."), and the Slovaks' inclination to present their world in a negative light (A: "How have you been?" B: "Kind-of survivable."). Slovaks' comments on their trips abroad are not as negative as what they commonly decide to blog about their Slovak vacations.


        Martin
      • William
        ... accounts by Americans.
        Message 3 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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          On 5/1/2012 8:43 AM, votrubam wrote:

          >Thanks for sharing, Marilyn. I've rarely heard less than enthusiastic
          accounts by Americans.<

          Martin,
          >
          > I have visited Slovakia six times for a total of 16 weeks. As a
          > Slovak speaking American, I was welcomed into the homes of several
          > relatives, both on my mother's side and my father's. I stayed in
          > Miloslavov twice, twice in Medvedzie and twice in Hladovka. I was
          > invited to a wedding in Oravice, an odpust in Hladovka and a folk
          > festival. On my last visit in Nov.-Dec., 2010, I was accompanied by
          > my 93 year old sister-in-law, who was born in Brezovice nad Torysou.
          > She came to the US at the age of three and had not returned until our
          > visit. I had inquired of my relatives about bus or train schedules to
          > Brezovice. Rather than furnish schedules, we were driven from
          > Hladovka to Brezovice and back to Hladovka, a total of nine hours.
          > They would not even consider any payment for their hospitality.

          I cannot possibly thank them for their whole-hearted acceptance. I was
          unable to spend any money of my own. It may have been because I spoke
          Slovak , and did not make any demands on them. I enjoyed their company
          and did my best to fit in with their wishes.

          The one thing that I am at a loss to explain, is, how did they know that
          I was an American? Even before I said anything, I was pegged as an
          American.

          William F. Brna
        • votrubam
          ... Indeed, Bill, I remember your accounts of the trips when you came back. Slovak bloggers do not complain about visits to their relatives, they consider
          Message 4 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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            > I cannot possibly thank them for their whole-hearted acceptance.

            Indeed, Bill, I remember your accounts of the trips when you came back. Slovak bloggers do not complain about visits to their relatives, they consider Slovak tourist services rather lacking.

            One thing easy to miss in the transatlantic perspective is the difference between a tourist (not a relative/friend staying in people's homes) visiting a distant foreign country for a short time, and someone visiting more familiar locations within a short distance of one's home.

            The Slovak law guarantees everyone a 4-week paid vacation, which goes up to 5 weeks after one's 33rd birthday (plus 15 paid holiday days for a total of 7 paid weeks off work each year). So when the Slovaks drive perhaps just 100 miles from home in their own country and stay put in the same place for 2 weeks, they will have different expectations and take on it than thrilled Americans zipping around an excitingly different country with much more money to spend for barely a week.

            And because Slovaks will also have spent time abroad during their legally guaranteed long, long paid vacation time, they will compare what they get for their money in tourist-efficient coastal resorts like in Croatia, Greece, Egypt (the Slovaks' main foreign destinations) with any crude waiters and receptionists, and with the half-dead historical towns and vacations spots when the sun gets closer to the horizon back in Slovakia.


            Martin
          • William C. Wormuth
            But yet, Germans and Cechs abound in Slovakia both winter and summer.  The Tatra ski areas attract many and the Spas, like Piestany attract many.  I just
            Message 5 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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              But yet, Germans and Cechs abound in Slovakia both winter and summer.  The Tatra ski areas attract many and the Spas, like Piestany attract many.  I just wish more of our people would visit.

              I wonder if there isn't a place where the "bloggers" could send complaints????

              Z Bohom, 


              Vilo



              ________________________________
              From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:21 AM
              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city


               
              > I wish more people here would visit.

              Well, yes, Vilo, but Slovakia, or rather, Slovaks are rather lacking when it comes to providing services. A lot of Slovak bloggers comment on that, many say, for instance, that they prefer to go skiing to pricier Austria, because they get so much more for their money. Others speak of nothing to do after a day of looking at historical towns or hiking, of incompetent or dismissive service personnel. The difference between the Slovak and Polish side of the Tatras, for instance, is quite astonishing in this respect, although Poland has just a small and substantially less attractive part of the mountains.

              Martin




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William C. Wormuth
              http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/45907/8/nitra_famous_even_in_outer_space.html ________________________________ From: William C. Wormuth
              Message 6 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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                http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/45907/8/nitra_famous_even_in_outer_space.html


                ________________________________
                From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:29 PM
                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city


                But yet, Germans and Cechs abound in Slovakia both winter and summer.  The Tatra ski areas attract many and the Spas, like Piestany attract many.  I just wish more of our people would visit.

                I wonder if there isn't a place where the "bloggers" could send complaints????

                Z Bohom, 


                Vilo



                ________________________________
                From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:21 AM
                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city


                 
                > I wish more people here would visit.

                Well, yes, Vilo, but Slovakia, or rather, Slovaks are rather lacking when it comes to providing services. A lot of Slovak bloggers comment on that, many say, for instance, that they prefer to go skiing to pricier Austria, because they get so much more for their money. Others speak of nothing to do after a day of looking at historical towns or hiking, of incompetent or dismissive service personnel. The difference between the Slovak and Polish side of the Tatras, for instance, is quite astonishing in this respect, although Poland has just a small and substantially less attractive part of the mountains.

                Martin




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • votrubam
                ... Germans in the first place? What is the number of visitors from Germany to Slovakia by comparison to visitors from other countries? Tourism makes up but
                Message 7 of 15 , May 1, 2012
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                  > But yet, Germans and Cechs abound in Slovakia

                  Germans in the first place? What is the number of visitors from Germany to Slovakia by comparison to visitors from other countries?

                  Tourism makes up but 1.5 percent of Slovakia's GDP, the average length of a visitor's stay is barely two days. Comparisons with Slovakia's neighbors are available, it makes sense to look them up before posting.


                  > I wonder if there isn't a place where the "bloggers"
                  > could send complaints????

                  Where? They're complaining about the management of the places they visit.


                  Martin
                • William C. Wormuth
                  Informative Article concerning Slovakia.  Note:  Under Slovak Profile are Tabs covering all info. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17847682
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 2, 2012
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                    Informative Article concerning Slovakia.  Note:  Under "Slovak Profile" are Tabs covering all info.

                    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17847682


                    ________________________________
                    From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                    To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:39 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city


                    http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/45907/8/nitra_famous_even_in_outer_space.html


                    ________________________________
                    From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                    To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:29 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city


                    But yet, Germans and Cechs abound in Slovakia both winter and summer.  The Tatra ski areas attract many and the Spas, like Piestany attract many.  I just wish more of our people would visit.

                    I wonder if there isn't a place where the "bloggers" could send complaints????

                    Z Bohom, 


                    Vilo



                    ________________________________
                    From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:21 AM
                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: A velvety visit to old city


                     
                    > I wish more people here would visit.

                    Well, yes, Vilo, but Slovakia, or rather, Slovaks are rather lacking when it comes to providing services. A lot of Slovak bloggers comment on that, many say, for instance, that they prefer to go skiing to pricier Austria, because they get so much more for their money. Others speak of nothing to do after a day of looking at historical towns or hiking, of incompetent or dismissive service personnel. The difference between the Slovak and Polish side of the Tatras, for instance, is quite astonishing in this respect, although Poland has just a small and substantially less attractive part of the mountains.

                    Martin




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ron
                    There is the age of the buildings, Vilo, and and also the methods of construction that are strange to Americans, and thus make it hard to tell if a building is
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 4, 2012
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                      There is the age of the buildings, Vilo, and and also the methods of construction that are strange to Americans, and thus make it hard to tell if a building is old or simply built in a traditional way. Simply the use of stucco over brick and heavy timbers for roof framing make it difficult to judge. On the US embassy in Vilnius, one of the American workers was astounded to work on renovating a 16th century building - and was shocked when he was told it was built in 1936.

                      Much of what passes for old buildings in Germany are new buildings build more-or-less after the old styles in the reconstruction following WW II. The Frankfurt Romer Platz (loosely town square) is one specific example.

                      I have seen claims of log buildings dating from the 1200's existing in both the Carpathians and in Scandinavia. In the former, the one fellow used phrases "tradition has it" and "reputed to be", whereas some dendrochronological (tree ring) dating would seem to settle most questions about age. The problem to overcome with that exact science is what percentage of the building would count as the age? A log from 1250, or a renovation log from 1764?

                      Periodic fires and natural rotting of wood over centuries have eliminated most of the ancient wooden buildings, and the better protected and often restored brick and plaster buildings are what we see today. They are still quite old by our standards.
                      Ron

                      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Martin,
                      >
                      >
                      > Americans who have never traveled to Europe  Slovakia, can hardly believe the age of some of the buildings in the cities and towns.
                      >
                      >
                    • LongJohn Wayne
                      Ron:   Germans are fond of [re-]using the braces & supports of the Bavarian style buildings, but filling in the brick/stucco/straw portions of the outside
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 7, 2012
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                        Ron:
                         
                        Germans are fond of [re-]using the braces & supports of the Bavarian style buildings, but filling in the brick/stucco/straw portions of the outside walls w/ more modern insulated components.
                         
                        Warsaw was rebuilt after what the Germans did to it after 'The Rising' & the approach of the Communists as they retreated.  The Russians 'killed two birds w/ one stone by allowing the Poles to slaughter themselves by attacking the Germans.  In so doing they made sure that the patriots & heroes who would oppose the Communist yolk of oppression which would soon replace the Fascist yolk.  But in Warsaw, the reconstruction was made possible by the virtual destruction of other Polish towns for the bricks to rebuild Warsaw.
                         
                        http://www.warsawuprising.com/
                        http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/restoration-polish-cities-ww-destruction-32836/
                         
                        I actually forget which town(s) was destroyed to recreate Warsaw.  I was only there a few hours & took in what I could.
                         
                        Chuck


                        ________________________________
                        From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 12:05 PM
                        Subject: [Slovak-World] Old Buildings in Slovakia


                         
                        There is the age of the buildings, Vilo, and and also the methods of construction that are strange to Americans, and thus make it hard to tell if a building is old or simply built in a traditional way. Simply the use of stucco over brick and heavy timbers for roof framing make it difficult to judge. On the US embassy in Vilnius, one of the American workers was astounded to work on renovating a 16th century building - and was shocked when he was told it was built in 1936.

                        Much of what passes for old buildings in Germany are new buildings build more-or-less after the old styles in the reconstruction following WW II. The Frankfurt Romer Platz (loosely town square) is one specific example.

                        I have seen claims of log buildings dating from the 1200's existing in both the Carpathians and in Scandinavia. In the former, the one fellow used phrases "tradition has it" and "reputed to be", whereas some dendrochronological (tree ring) dating would seem to settle most questions about age. The problem to overcome with that exact science is what percentage of the building would count as the age? A log from 1250, or a renovation log from 1764?

                        Periodic fires and natural rotting of wood over centuries have eliminated most of the ancient wooden buildings, and the better protected and often restored brick and plaster buildings are what we see today. They are still quite old by our standards.
                        Ron

                        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Martin,
                        >
                        >
                        > Americans who have never traveled to Europe  Slovakia, can hardly believe the age of some of the buildings in the cities and towns.
                        >
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ron
                        The Germans were good at a lot of things and weaker in othres, as you might find in different parts of the USA. Central and southern Germans would hire north
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 7, 2012
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                          The Germans were good at a lot of things and weaker in othres, as you might find in different parts of the USA. Central and southern Germans would hire north Germans to do finish brickwork.

                          For the really fine custom decorations in plasterwork, the medallions and shields you see on walls and ceilings of palaces, they would import Polish workers who had the skills required. I know the topic intimately, I was engaged to a woman who took over the family specialty business, and once her dad retired even the superbly skilled workers she had could not do that work. It is sad the Poles had so much destruction in their lands that they had to keep those highly skilled tradesmen busy so long!

                          Ahhh .. the materials and methods used... another difference in culture. Don't try to find an American who can plaster a wall or a German who can do a decent job on sheet rock! But we should enjoy the differences, as I told a young engineer who returned from Iraq and criticized their materials and methods, with no appreciation for the materials they have, their traditions, and the occasional inappropriateness of our methods and materials.
                          You have been to Berlin, so Teufelsberg has meaning for you. I have some good stories of that and Lithuania someday.

                          Ron
                          PS. I know Pawian from another Polish forum, a very interesting fellow.


                          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ron:
                          >  
                          > Germans are fond of [re-]using the braces & supports of the Bavarian style buildings, but filling in the brick/stucco/straw portions of the outside walls w/ more modern insulated components.
                          >  
                          > Warsaw was rebuilt after what the Germans did to it after 'The Rising' & the approach of the Communists as they retreated.  The Russians 'killed two birds w/ one stone by allowing the Poles to slaughter themselves by attacking the Germans.  In so doing they made sure that the patriots & heroes who would oppose the Communist yolk of oppression which would soon replace the Fascist yolk.  But in Warsaw, the reconstruction was made possible by the virtual destruction of other Polish towns for the bricks to rebuild Warsaw.
                          >  
                          > http://www.warsawuprising.com/
                          > http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/restoration-polish-cities-ww-destruction-32836/
                          >  
                          > I actually forget which town(s) was destroyed to recreate Warsaw.  I was only there a few hours & took in what I could.
                          >  
                          > Chuck
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                          > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 12:05 PM
                          > Subject: [Slovak-World] Old Buildings in Slovakia
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          > There is the age of the buildings, Vilo, and and also the methods of construction that are strange to Americans, and thus make it hard to tell if a building is old or simply built in a traditional way. Simply the use of stucco over brick and heavy timbers for roof framing make it difficult to judge. On the US embassy in Vilnius, one of the American workers was astounded to work on renovating a 16th century building - and was shocked when he was told it was built in 1936.
                          >
                          > Much of what passes for old buildings in Germany are new buildings build more-or-less after the old styles in the reconstruction following WW II. The Frankfurt Romer Platz (loosely town square) is one specific example.
                          >
                          > I have seen claims of log buildings dating from the 1200's existing in both the Carpathians and in Scandinavia. In the former, the one fellow used phrases "tradition has it" and "reputed to be", whereas some dendrochronological (tree ring) dating would seem to settle most questions about age. The problem to overcome with that exact science is what percentage of the building would count as the age? A log from 1250, or a renovation log from 1764?
                          >
                          > Periodic fires and natural rotting of wood over centuries have eliminated most of the ancient wooden buildings, and the better protected and often restored brick and plaster buildings are what we see today. They are still quite old by our standards.
                          > Ron
                          >
                          > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Martin,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Americans who have never traveled to Europe  Slovakia, can hardly believe the age of some of the buildings in the cities and towns.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • LongJohn Wayne
                          Ron: I knew a man in South Florida who was the equal of any European plasterer.  He was definitely old school.  John Sutton.  He once fashioned the doorway,
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 9, 2012
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                            Ron:

                            I knew a man in South Florida who was the equal of any European plasterer.  He was definitely old school.  John Sutton.  He once fashioned the doorway, not the door, mind you, which was imported from Spain or Italy (from an old estate) with rolled archways & in his time & materials estimated the cost at about $250,000.00.  This was over 20 years ago.  It would have to be over a million now.

                            We are staying far off topic, but thought you might like to know.

                            On my first trip to Parchovany, SK, I was fascinated by the way the rain gutters appeared to be works of art the way they were ornamented or perforated at the tops w/ crosses, crests, or coats of arms, and the way the downspouts would have junctions to deviate away from the structural accents on the buildings.  And this was just in a simple peasant village.

                            Chuck
                            [Recovering from jetlag, albeit slowly]


                            If you haven't already left.



                            ________________________________
                            From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 7:35 PM
                            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Old Buildings in Slovakia


                             
                            The Germans were good at a lot of things and weaker in othres, as you might find in different parts of the USA. Central and southern Germans would hire north Germans to do finish brickwork.

                            For the really fine custom decorations in plasterwork, the medallions and shields you see on walls and ceilings of palaces, they would import Polish workers who had the skills required. I know the topic intimately, I was engaged to a woman who took over the family specialty business, and once her dad retired even the superbly skilled workers she had could not do that work. It is sad the Poles had so much destruction in their lands that they had to keep those highly skilled tradesmen busy so long!

                            Ahhh .. the materials and methods used... another difference in culture. Don't try to find an American who can plaster a wall or a German who can do a decent job on sheet rock! But we should enjoy the differences, as I told a young engineer who returned from Iraq and criticized their materials and methods, with no appreciation for the materials they have, their traditions, and the occasional inappropriateness of our methods and materials.
                            You have been to Berlin, so Teufelsberg has meaning for you. I have some good stories of that and Lithuania someday.

                            Ron
                            PS. I know Pawian from another Polish forum, a very interesting fellow.

                            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Ron:
                            >  
                            > Germans are fond of [re-]using the braces & supports of the Bavarian style buildings, but filling in the brick/stucco/straw portions of the outside walls w/ more modern insulated components.
                            >  
                            > Warsaw was rebuilt after what the Germans did to it after 'The Rising' & the approach of the Communists as they retreated.  The Russians 'killed two birds w/ one stone by allowing the Poles to slaughter themselves by attacking the Germans.  In so doing they made sure that the patriots & heroes who would oppose the Communist yolk of oppression which would soon replace the Fascist yolk.  But in Warsaw, the reconstruction was made possible by the virtual destruction of other Polish towns for the bricks to rebuild Warsaw.
                            >  
                            > http://www.warsawuprising.com/
                            > http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/restoration-polish-cities-ww-destruction-32836/
                            >  
                            > I actually forget which town(s) was destroyed to recreate Warsaw.  I was only there a few hours & took in what I could.
                            >  
                            > Chuck
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                            > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 12:05 PM
                            > Subject: [Slovak-World] Old Buildings in Slovakia
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            > There is the age of the buildings, Vilo, and and also the methods of construction that are strange to Americans, and thus make it hard to tell if a building is old or simply built in a traditional way. Simply the use of stucco over brick and heavy timbers for roof framing make it difficult to judge. On the US embassy in Vilnius, one of the American workers was astounded to work on renovating a 16th century building - and was shocked when he was told it was built in 1936.
                            >
                            > Much of what passes for old buildings in Germany are new buildings build more-or-less after the old styles in the reconstruction following WW II. The Frankfurt Romer Platz (loosely town square) is one specific example.
                            >
                            > I have seen claims of log buildings dating from the 1200's existing in both the Carpathians and in Scandinavia. In the former, the one fellow used phrases "tradition has it" and "reputed to be", whereas some dendrochronological (tree ring) dating would seem to settle most questions about age. The problem to overcome with that exact science is what percentage of the building would count as the age? A log from 1250, or a renovation log from 1764?
                            >
                            > Periodic fires and natural rotting of wood over centuries have eliminated most of the ancient wooden buildings, and the better protected and often restored brick and plaster buildings are what we see today. They are still quite old by our standards.
                            > Ron
                            >
                            > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Martin,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Americans who have never traveled to Europe  Slovakia, can hardly believe the age of some of the buildings in the cities and towns.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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