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Geo-miscrafs

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  • votrubam
    ... The above is quite elementary: Bavaria, Thuringia, Upper Palatinate, Upper Franconia [...] Styria, Tirol, Carinthia. ... No as to and what not. Of
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 12, 2010
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      Time for some (geo)graphic embarrassment:

      > As for the journeymen from Bayern, Thurn, Upper Phalen,
      > Upper Franken [...] Steiermark, the Tyrol, Ka:rnten

      The above is quite elementary: Bavaria, Thuringia, Upper Palatinate, Upper Franconia [...] Styria, Tirol, Carinthia.

      Just like it's Austria, not Oesterreich, in English, it's also Bavaria, not Bayern except for the soccer team, etc. The phrasing is geographically challenged too:

      > As for the journeymen from Bayern [...] the German-speaking
      > regions of the upper Danube region, quite a high percentage
      > of them came from Saxony...

      No "as to" and what not. "Of them" must be made to refer to all the German-speaking journeymen, not just those from the Upper Danube, because Saxony and Silesia have nothing to do with the Danube, do they. The text says that journeymen from all the listed regions came to Bratislava, and their sum total was three times as many as...


      > the "body of information"? Does Slovak use "body" in the same sense?

      No. _Torzovity_, a fairly common albeit sophisticated word, means what Ron said.


      > when the rest of Hungary liberated itself from the Ottomans

      _Was liberated_ (when since 1242 has Hungary liberated "itself"?).


      > a transportation crossroads [Is this right?]

      Just a crossroads, travelers' crossroads if necessary.


      > reason was probably a lack of individual professionalism[???]

      Because the German territories started to move ahead so much faster, apprentices from there began to have no reason to go and train in the Kingdom that lagged behind, it was like why don't American students flock to get their MBAs in Russia now.


      > journeymen arriving from Bohemia and Moravia increased from 1% to 7%

      _Ranged_, not "increased," the same applies to all the "from - to" percentages there.


      > the Sudetenland [or would "Sudeten Mts." be more accurate?]

      The Sudetenland is good, mountains would really mean just the mountains there.


      > weekly markets made it possible for home-producers to sell
      > what they had saved [?] during the agricultural season

      No saving of anything: ... for home manufacturers to sell their products, which they did especially during the farming off-season.


      Martin
    • Fedor, Helen
      Martin, Thanks for all the corrections. Some of the mistakes are my own. I thought I changed Bayern to Bavaria...I must have forgotten to hit the save
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 13, 2010
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        Martin,
        Thanks for all the corrections. Some of the mistakes are my own. I thought I changed Bayern to Bavaria...I must have forgotten to hit the "save" button, but I don't know much about the German world and didn't do enough checking. My bad. I'm always glad to be corrected and learn. The translator though, did her best to muddle some of the rest. Having the original Slovak would be a big help, so I'm glad that at least you have it.

        H
        All opinions my own

        ________________________________________
        From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of votrubam [votrubam@...]
        Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:59 PM
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Slovak-World] Geo-miscrafs

        Time for some (geo)graphic embarrassment:

        > As for the journeymen from Bayern, Thurn, Upper Phalen,
        > Upper Franken [...] Steiermark, the Tyrol, Ka:rnten

        The above is quite elementary: Bavaria, Thuringia, Upper Palatinate, Upper Franconia [...] Styria, Tirol, Carinthia.

        Just like it's Austria, not Oesterreich, in English, it's also Bavaria, not Bayern except for the soccer team, etc. The phrasing is geographically challenged too:

        > As for the journeymen from Bayern [...] the German-speaking
        > regions of the upper Danube region, quite a high percentage
        > of them came from Saxony...

        No "as to" and what not. "Of them" must be made to refer to all the German-speaking journeymen, not just those from the Upper Danube, because Saxony and Silesia have nothing to do with the Danube, do they. The text says that journeymen from all the listed regions came to Bratislava, and their sum total was three times as many as...

        > the "body of information"? Does Slovak use "body" in the same sense?

        No. _Torzovity_, a fairly common albeit sophisticated word, means what Ron said.

        > when the rest of Hungary liberated itself from the Ottomans

        _Was liberated_ (when since 1242 has Hungary liberated "itself"?).

        > a transportation crossroads [Is this right?]

        Just a crossroads, travelers' crossroads if necessary.

        > reason was probably a lack of individual professionalism[???]

        Because the German territories started to move ahead so much faster, apprentices from there began to have no reason to go and train in the Kingdom that lagged behind, it was like why don't American students flock to get their MBAs in Russia now.

        > journeymen arriving from Bohemia and Moravia increased from 1% to 7%

        _Ranged_, not "increased," the same applies to all the "from - to" percentages there.

        > the Sudetenland [or would "Sudeten Mts." be more accurate?]

        The Sudetenland is good, mountains would really mean just the mountains there.

        > weekly markets made it possible for home-producers to sell
        > what they had saved [?] during the agricultural season

        No saving of anything: ... for home manufacturers to sell their products, which they did especially during the farming off-season.

        Martin
      • votrubam
        ... The Danube flows from the Black Forest east through Bavaria, Austria, and turns south not much past Bratislava. Silesia, PL: Slask, SK: Sliezsko, CZ:
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 13, 2010
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          > don't know much about the German world

          The Danube flows from the Black Forest east through Bavaria, Austria, and turns south not much past Bratislava.

          Silesia, PL: Slask, SK: Sliezsko, CZ: Slezsko, German: Schlesien, has been partly part of Poland for almost a century, since the collapse of the Habsburg monarchy after WW I, and entirely for more than a half of that time, since the end of WW II:

          <http://gospodarka.silesia-region.pl/en/imagespl/mapa-adm-pl.jpg>

          It's the shaded region, the adjacent lands to the south-west of it, and the two Polish counties to the north-west of it. There have been various links between Silesia and Slovak history, e.g.:

          An influential author and compiler of the key Slovak Lutheran hymnal, the Slovaks' first published work of literature not in Latin, still in use today came from Silesia in the early 17th century.

          The first extensive account/novel/travelogue concerning Slovakia was written by a person from Silesia who studied music in Spis County and traveled farther east, as well as briefly to Liptov County, in the 1650s.

          A top mid-19th-century Slovak novelist was a headmaster of a high school in Silesia for about a decade.

          Towards the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century, when the pressure from Budapest to undermine education in non-Hungarian languages culminated, some Slovak students (male and female) went to high schools in Silesia.



          Martin
        • Fedor, Helen
          In what language were the HS students who went to Silesia taught? H All opinions my own ________________________________________ From:
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 14, 2010
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            In what language were the HS students who went to Silesia taught?

            H
            All opinions my own

            ________________________________________
            From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of votrubam [votrubam@...]
            Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:05 PM
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Geo-miscrafs

            > don't know much about the German world

            The Danube flows from the Black Forest east through Bavaria, Austria, and turns south not much past Bratislava.

            Silesia, PL: Slask, SK: Sliezsko, CZ: Slezsko, German: Schlesien, has been partly part of Poland for almost a century, since the collapse of the Habsburg monarchy after WW I, and entirely for more than a half of that time, since the end of WW II:

            <http://gospodarka.silesia-region.pl/en/imagespl/mapa-adm-pl.jpg>

            It's the shaded region, the adjacent lands to the south-west of it, and the two Polish counties to the north-west of it. There have been various links between Silesia and Slovak history, e.g.:

            An influential author and compiler of the key Slovak Lutheran hymnal, the Slovaks' first published work of literature not in Latin, still in use today came from Silesia in the early 17th century.

            The first extensive account/novel/travelogue concerning Slovakia was written by a person from Silesia who studied music in Spis County and traveled farther east, as well as briefly to Liptov County, in the 1650s.

            A top mid-19th-century Slovak novelist was a headmaster of a high school in Silesia for about a decade.

            Towards the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century, when the pressure from Budapest to undermine education in non-Hungarian languages culminated, some Slovak students (male and female) went to high schools in Silesia.

            Martin
          • votrubam
            ... Mostly German. They preferred it to Hungarian for personal-political reasons, and for practical ones too -- Hungarian has never been of any use for the
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 14, 2010
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              > In what language were the HS students who went to Silesia taught?

              Mostly German. They preferred it to Hungarian for personal-political reasons, and for practical ones too -- Hungarian has never been of any use for the non-Hungarian Central Europeans except to communicate with the Hungarian ethnics, while German has been a major lingua franca of Central Europe. But there was Czech teaching too, also preferable over Hungarian for those who traveled to go to school in Silesia. More Slovaks went to the newly opened Czech branch of Charles University in Prague for the same reason(s).


              Martin
            • LongJohn Wayne
              Martin: During which time frame?  Was there no time frame when Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign? D akujem in advance. Chuck [Not
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 15, 2010
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                Martin:

                During which time frame?  Was there no time frame when Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?

                D'akujem in advance.

                Chuck
                [Not doubting, just questioning]

                --- On Sun, 11/14/10, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Geo-miscrafs
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 3:30 PM







                 









                > In what language were the HS students who went to Silesia taught?



                Mostly German. They preferred it to Hungarian for personal-political reasons, and for practical ones too -- Hungarian has never been of any use for the non-Hungarian Central Europeans except to communicate with the Hungarian ethnics, while German has been a major lingua franca of Central Europe. But there was Czech teaching too, also preferable over Hungarian for those who traveled to go to school in Silesia. More Slovaks went to the newly opened Czech branch of Charles University in Prague for the same reason(s).



                Martin

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • votrubam
                ... The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who were in the majority
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 15, 2010
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                  > During which time frame?  Was there no time frame when
                  > Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?

                  The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.

                  Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom, which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs' provinces.


                  Martin
                • LongJohn Wayne
                  Thank you kindly, sir, for patiently answering my redundant question. ... From: votrubam Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Geo-miscrafs To:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 15, 2010
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                    Thank you kindly, sir, for patiently answering my redundant question.

                    --- On Mon, 11/15/10, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                    From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Geo-miscrafs
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, November 15, 2010, 9:43 PM







                     









                    > During which time frame?  Was there no time frame when

                    > Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?



                    The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.



                    Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom, which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs' provinces.



                    Martin

























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Julie Michutka
                    Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start digging into sources
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 15, 2010
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                      Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up
                      the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                      digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what
                      might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                      run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a
                      nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....

                      Julie Michutka
                      jmm@...

                      On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:

                      >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                      >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                      >
                      > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                      > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                      > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                      >
                      > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                      > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                      > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                      > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                      > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                      > provinces.
                      >
                      >
                      > Martin
                    • Fedor, Helen
                      Let me add Ukrainian to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad s village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
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                        Let me add 'Ukrainian' to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad's village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a few years, then reverted back to Hungarian. It couldn't hurt to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (even though the different languages using it use slightly different versions of it (more, or fewer, characters))...for just in case.

                        H

                        From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Julie Michutka
                        Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:20 PM
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                        Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up
                        the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                        digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what
                        might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                        run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a
                        nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....

                        Julie Michutka
                        jmm@...<mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>

                        On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:

                        >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                        >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                        >
                        > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                        > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                        > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                        >
                        > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                        > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                        > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                        > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                        > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                        > provinces.
                        >
                        >
                        > Martin



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • CurtB
                        Julie, Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and Ukrainian do come up. [As
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
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                          Julie,
                          Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and Ukrainian do come up. [As Helen noted] I have been working on two towns over the last ten years, and made two trips to find sources. I am doing one study of causes of death in a village, and most is in Hungarian which is a real pain for me. I can read Cyrillic script but frequently don't understand the language. I am dependent on making a lot of friends who can help. There are surprising numbers of books in Hungarian and German that have fragments of information as well.

                          Part of what you need depends on what aspects of local history interest you.

                          I remember you from a long ago trip with Helene...
                          Best of luck with the project.

                          Curt B.

                          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up
                          > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                          > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what
                          > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                          > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a
                          > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....
                          >
                          > Julie Michutka
                          > jmm@...
                          >
                          > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:
                          >
                          > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                          > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                          > >
                          > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                          > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                          > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                          > >
                          > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                          > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                          > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                          > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                          > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                          > > provinces.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Martin
                          >
                        • Julie Michutka
                          Sheesh, I forgot about Cyrillic! I don t need if for my own work (yet!), as my family came from the nw of the country, but I ve seen it when working on
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
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                            Sheesh, I forgot about Cyrillic! I don't need if for my own work
                            (yet!), as my family came from the nw of the country, but I've seen it
                            when working on others' genealogies.

                            So Curt, where have you been doing research? Archives? (district?
                            local? other?) Or parish records? (Curt, was the trip in 2002?)

                            Anyone else spent time in Slovakia researching sources beyond church
                            records?

                            Julie Michutka

                            On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:36 PM, CurtB wrote:

                            > Julie,
                            > Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and
                            > depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and
                            > Ukrainian do come up. [As Helen noted] I have been working on two
                            > towns over the last ten years, and made two trips to find sources.
                            > I am doing one study of causes of death in a village, and most is in
                            > Hungarian which is a real pain for me. I can read Cyrillic script
                            > but frequently don't understand the language. I am dependent on
                            > making a lot of friends who can help. There are surprising numbers
                            > of books in Hungarian and German that have fragments of information
                            > as well.
                            >
                            > Part of what you need depends on what aspects of local history
                            > interest you.
                            >
                            > I remember you from a long ago trip with Helene...
                            > Best of luck with the project.
                            >
                            > Curt B.
                            >
                            > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape
                            >> up
                            >> the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                            >> digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of
                            >> what
                            >> might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                            >> run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm
                            >> asking a
                            >> nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I
                            >> wonder....
                            >>
                            >> Julie Michutka
                            >> jmm@...
                            >>
                            >> On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:
                            >>
                            >>>> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                            >>>> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                            >>>
                            >>> The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                            >>> the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                            >>> were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                            >>>
                            >>> Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                            >>> who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                            >>> not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                            >>> Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                            >>> which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                            >>> provinces.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> Martin
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • LongJohn Wayne
                            Please keep us posted on this.  I am [hopefully] going back in April next year. ... From: Julie Michutka Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
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                              Please keep us posted on this.  I am [hopefully] going back in April next year.

                              --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                              From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 3:20 PM







                               









                              Sheesh, I forgot about Cyrillic! I don't need if for my own work

                              (yet!), as my family came from the nw of the country, but I've seen it

                              when working on others' genealogies.



                              So Curt, where have you been doing research? Archives? (district?

                              local? other?) Or parish records? (Curt, was the trip in 2002?)



                              Anyone else spent time in Slovakia researching sources beyond church

                              records?



                              Julie Michutka



                              On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:36 PM, CurtB wrote:



                              > Julie,

                              > Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and

                              > depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and

                              > Ukrainian do come up. [As Helen noted] I have been working on two

                              > towns over the last ten years, and made two trips to find sources.

                              > I am doing one study of causes of death in a village, and most is in

                              > Hungarian which is a real pain for me. I can read Cyrillic script

                              > but frequently don't understand the language. I am dependent on

                              > making a lot of friends who can help. There are surprising numbers

                              > of books in Hungarian and German that have fragments of information

                              > as well.

                              >

                              > Part of what you need depends on what aspects of local history

                              > interest you.

                              >

                              > I remember you from a long ago trip with Helene...

                              > Best of luck with the project.

                              >

                              > Curt B.

                              >

                              > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                              >>

                              >> Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape

                              >> up

                              >> the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start

                              >> digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of

                              >> what

                              >> might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would

                              >> run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm

                              >> asking a

                              >> nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I

                              >> wonder....

                              >>

                              >> Julie Michutka

                              >> jmm@...

                              >>

                              >> On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:

                              >>

                              >>>> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when

                              >>>> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?

                              >>>

                              >>> The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on

                              >>> the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who

                              >>> were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.

                              >>>

                              >>> Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those

                              >>> who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was

                              >>> not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian

                              >>> Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,

                              >>> which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'

                              >>> provinces.

                              >>>

                              >>>

                              >>> Martin

                              >>

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > ------------------------------------

                              >

                              > Yahoo! Groups Links

                              >

                              >

                              >

























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • LongJohn Wayne
                              What areas of Slovakia are you investigating?  Are you going to publish your results? ... From: CurtB Subject: [Slovak-World] Re:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                What areas of Slovakia are you investigating?  Are you going to publish your results?

                                --- On Tue, 11/16/10, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                                From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>
                                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 2:36 PM







                                 









                                Julie,

                                Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and Ukrainian do come up. [As Helen noted] I have been working on two towns over the last ten years, and made two trips to find sources. I am doing one study of causes of death in a village, and most is in Hungarian which is a real pain for me. I can read Cyrillic script but frequently don't understand the language. I am dependent on making a lot of friends who can help. There are surprising numbers of books in Hungarian and German that have fragments of information as well.



                                Part of what you need depends on what aspects of local history interest you.



                                I remember you from a long ago trip with Helene...

                                Best of luck with the project.



                                Curt B.



                                --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                                >

                                > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up

                                > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start

                                > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what

                                > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would

                                > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a

                                > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....

                                >

                                > Julie Michutka

                                > jmm@...

                                >

                                > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:

                                >

                                > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when

                                > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?

                                > >

                                > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on

                                > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who

                                > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.

                                > >

                                > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those

                                > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was

                                > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian

                                > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,

                                > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'

                                > > provinces.

                                > >

                                > >

                                > > Martin

                                >

























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • CurtB
                                Julie, We met on an earlier trip in the 90 s, but it s so long ago I d have to look at old records, probably 1996 or so. I ve been researching villages of my
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Julie,
                                  We met on an earlier trip in the 90's, but it's so long ago I'd have to look at old records, probably 1996 or so.

                                  I've been researching villages of my grandparents in Saris and Zemplin. Visited the regional archives, village halls, churches, talked to very old people, etc. Everyone except some archive people were particularly forthcoming and gracious. [perhaps not untypical of bureaucrats in U.S. as well] For libraries I've done better here in the U.S. -- the Czech and Slovak archive at the Univ. of Chicago, plus the great Slavic collections there and at the Univ. of Illinois at Champaigne-Urbana. I've found lots of materials there including much economic and demographic information in tables in older Hungarian sources. They both have vast Slovak collections as well, and librarians probably almost as good as Helen at L.C.

                                  I learned to read and write Cyrillic as a teenager. It is like learning to ride a bike, once you do it you never forget. A college course in paleography certainly helped as well as Latin and German. I've recently retired to now I have the time to do things like this.

                                  Very best,
                                  Curt B.
                                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sheesh, I forgot about Cyrillic! I don't need if for my own work
                                  > (yet!), as my family came from the nw of the country, but I've seen it
                                  > when working on others' genealogies.
                                  >
                                  > So Curt, where have you been doing research? Archives? (district?
                                  > local? other?) Or parish records? (Curt, was the trip in 2002?)
                                  >
                                  > Anyone else spent time in Slovakia researching sources beyond church
                                  > records?
                                  >
                                  > Julie Michutka
                                  >
                                  > On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:36 PM, CurtB wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Julie,
                                  > > Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and
                                  > > depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and
                                  > > Ukrainian do come up. [As Helen noted] I have been working on two
                                  > > towns over the last ten years, and made two trips to find sources.
                                  > > I am doing one study of causes of death in a village, and most is in
                                  > > Hungarian which is a real pain for me. I can read Cyrillic script
                                  > > but frequently don't understand the language. I am dependent on
                                  > > making a lot of friends who can help. There are surprising numbers
                                  > > of books in Hungarian and German that have fragments of information
                                  > > as well.
                                  > >
                                  > > Part of what you need depends on what aspects of local history
                                  > > interest you.
                                  > >
                                  > > I remember you from a long ago trip with Helene...
                                  > > Best of luck with the project.
                                  > >
                                  > > Curt B.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@> wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape
                                  > >> up
                                  > >> the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                                  > >> digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of
                                  > >> what
                                  > >> might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                                  > >> run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm
                                  > >> asking a
                                  > >> nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I
                                  > >> wonder....
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Julie Michutka
                                  > >> jmm@
                                  > >>
                                  > >> On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >>>> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                                  > >>>> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                                  > >>> the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                                  > >>> were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                                  > >>> who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                                  > >>> not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                                  > >>> Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                                  > >>> which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                                  > >>> provinces.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Martin
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • CurtB
                                  Dax, I am looking at two villages, one on Saris near Presov and one in Zemplin near Humenne. I am researching out of curiosity about family. I have 2d
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dax,
                                    I am looking at two villages, one on Saris near Presov and one in Zemplin near Humenne. I am researching out of curiosity about family. I have 2d cousins in Slovakia that I visit as well. I discovered them some years ago on a visit with Helene Cincebeaux.
                                    I circulate stuff among family here and in Slovakia as well, but never thought about publishing anything. I am only a dabbler when it comes to Slovak history so it likely is not publishable.
                                    My current project is to look at parish records to see patterns and causes of death in the 19th century. Amazing to see cholera epidemic etc, and the enormous difference of life. My dad's brother died in an epidemic of diphtheria. In both villages about 50 percent of all deaths are of children under fifteen. Ah, the days before antibiotics and widespread vaccinations.

                                    Reading general history interests me, but this kind of research is much more enlightening but the languages required make it slow...

                                    Curt B.

                                    --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > What areas of Slovakia are you investigating?  Are you going to publish your results?
                                    >
                                    > --- On Tue, 11/16/10, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>
                                    > Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                    > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Julie,
                                    >
                                    > Congratulations, do it! You are right about the languages and depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and Ukrainian do come up. [As Helen noted] I have been working on two towns over the last ten years, and made two trips to find sources. I am doing one study of causes of death in a village, and most is in Hungarian which is a real pain for me. I can read Cyrillic script but frequently don't understand the language. I am dependent on making a lot of friends who can help. There are surprising numbers of books in Hungarian and German that have fragments of information as well.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Part of what you need depends on what aspects of local history interest you.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I remember you from a long ago trip with Helene...
                                    >
                                    > Best of luck with the project.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Curt B.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up
                                    >
                                    > > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                                    >
                                    > > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what
                                    >
                                    > > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                                    >
                                    > > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a
                                    >
                                    > > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Julie Michutka
                                    >
                                    > > jmm@
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                                    >
                                    > > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                                    >
                                    > > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                                    >
                                    > > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                                    >
                                    > > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                                    >
                                    > > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                                    >
                                    > > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                                    >
                                    > > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                                    >
                                    > > > provinces.
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > Martin
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Ron
                                    For those of us who can stumble through printed Cyrillic but not written, it is a real eye opener to go to
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      For those of us who can stumble through printed Cyrillic but not written, it is a real eye opener to go to
                                      http://stevemorse.org/russian/cyrprintcurs.html?font=print
                                      and type in relevant names and variations to get a view of the names in Cyrillic. The site offers choice of print or script. I used it primarily to get a visual idea of what the names look like in Cyrillic script = and there is a FAR greater differnce than I expected!

                                      So if you run across occasional Cyrillic records, it pays to have a print out (or screen view) of that you are looking for. At least you can then identify records that warrant additional work.

                                      Ron

                                      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      You are right about the languages and depending on where you have interest, the Cyrillic Rusin and Ukrainian do come up.... I can read Cyrillic script but
                                    • William C. Wormuth
                                      My first exposure to Cyrill in Slovakia was in the Greek Catholic cemetery in Huta, near Bardejov.  Most of the writing on the stones was in Cyrilic, (not
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        My first exposure to Cyrill in Slovakia was in the Greek Catholic cemetery in Huta, near Bardejov.  Most of the writing on the stones was in Cyrilic, (not "Ukrainian")

                                        Vilo

                                        --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Fedor, Helen <hfed@...> wrote:

                                        From: Fedor, Helen <hfed@...>
                                        Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                        To: "'Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com'" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 9:13 AM







                                         









                                        Let me add 'Ukrainian' to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad's village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a few years, then reverted back to Hungarian. It couldn't hurt to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (even though the different languages using it use slightly different versions of it (more, or fewer, characters))...for just in case.



                                        H



                                        From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Julie Michutka

                                        Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:20 PM

                                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

                                        Subject: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                                        Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up

                                        the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start

                                        digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what

                                        might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would

                                        run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a

                                        nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....



                                        Julie Michutka

                                        jmm@...<mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>



                                        On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:



                                        >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when

                                        >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?

                                        >

                                        > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on

                                        > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who

                                        > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.

                                        >

                                        > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those

                                        > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was

                                        > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian

                                        > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,

                                        > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'

                                        > provinces.

                                        >

                                        >

                                        > Martin



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Julie Michutka
                                        Hmm, Curt, I don t think we ve met, then. My first trip to Slovakia (on one of Helene s tours) was in 2000. Thanks for the insight into your research! Julie
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hmm, Curt, I don't think we've met, then. My first trip to Slovakia
                                          (on one of Helene's tours) was in 2000.

                                          Thanks for the insight into your research!

                                          Julie


                                          On Nov 16, 2010, at 4:52 PM, CurtB wrote:

                                          > Julie,
                                          > We met on an earlier trip in the 90's, but it's so long ago I'd have
                                          > to look at old records, probably 1996 or so.
                                          >
                                          > I've been researching villages of my grandparents in Saris and
                                          > Zemplin. Visited the regional archives, village halls, churches,
                                          > talked to very old people, etc. Everyone except some archive
                                          > people were particularly forthcoming and gracious. [perhaps not
                                          > untypical of bureaucrats in U.S. as well] For libraries I've done
                                          > better here in the U.S. -- the Czech and Slovak archive at the Univ.
                                          > of Chicago, plus the great Slavic collections there and at the
                                          > Univ. of Illinois at Champaigne-Urbana. I've found lots of
                                          > materials there including much economic and demographic information
                                          > in tables in older Hungarian sources. They both have vast Slovak
                                          > collections as well, and librarians probably almost as good as Helen
                                          > at L.C.
                                          >
                                          > I learned to read and write Cyrillic as a teenager. It is like
                                          > learning to ride a bike, once you do it you never forget. A college
                                          > course in paleography certainly helped as well as Latin and German.
                                          > I've recently retired to now I have the time to do things like this.
                                          >
                                          > Very best,
                                          > Curt B.
                                        • CurtB
                                          Julie, OK then, I was also in the 2000 trip. My second with Helene. I have been there twice since alone. So I think we did meet. CB
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Julie,
                                            OK then, I was also in the 2000 trip. My second with Helene. I have been there twice since alone. So I think we did meet.

                                            CB

                                            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hmm, Curt, I don't think we've met, then. My first trip to Slovakia
                                            > (on one of Helene's tours) was in 2000.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the insight into your research!
                                            >
                                            > Julie
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Nov 16, 2010, at 4:52 PM, CurtB wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Julie,
                                            > > We met on an earlier trip in the 90's, but it's so long ago I'd have
                                            > > to look at old records, probably 1996 or so.
                                            > >
                                            > > I've been researching villages of my grandparents in Saris and
                                            > > Zemplin. Visited the regional archives, village halls, churches,
                                            > > talked to very old people, etc. Everyone except some archive
                                            > > people were particularly forthcoming and gracious. [perhaps not
                                            > > untypical of bureaucrats in U.S. as well] For libraries I've done
                                            > > better here in the U.S. -- the Czech and Slovak archive at the Univ.
                                            > > of Chicago, plus the great Slavic collections there and at the
                                            > > Univ. of Illinois at Champaigne-Urbana. I've found lots of
                                            > > materials there including much economic and demographic information
                                            > > in tables in older Hungarian sources. They both have vast Slovak
                                            > > collections as well, and librarians probably almost as good as Helen
                                            > > at L.C.
                                            > >
                                            > > I learned to read and write Cyrillic as a teenager. It is like
                                            > > learning to ride a bike, once you do it you never forget. A college
                                            > > course in paleography certainly helped as well as Latin and German.
                                            > > I've recently retired to now I have the time to do things like this.
                                            > >
                                            > > Very best,
                                            > > Curt B.
                                            >
                                          • CurtB
                                            Vilo, Cyrillic is just the alphabet, not a language. What language these people spoke is another question. Some spoke an Eastern Slovak dialect, some spoke
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Nov 16, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Vilo,
                                              Cyrillic is just the alphabet, not a language. What language these people spoke is another question. Some spoke an Eastern Slovak dialect, some spoke what some call Rusyn, and others further east spoke Ukrainian. From just an inscription or even a short text one frequently can't tell. There are great arguments about this among partisans and scholars. I don't get involved in those discussions. I am just confronted with written monuments, documents, and texts and deal with each one separately.

                                              Curt B.

                                              --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > My first exposure to Cyrill in Slovakia was in the Greek Catholic cemetery in Huta, near Bardejov.  Most of the writing on the stones was in Cyrilic, (not "Ukrainian")
                                              >
                                              > Vilo
                                              >
                                              > --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Fedor, Helen <hfed@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > From: Fedor, Helen <hfed@...>
                                              > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                              > To: "'Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com'" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 9:13 AM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Let me add 'Ukrainian' to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad's village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a few years, then reverted back to Hungarian. It couldn't hurt to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (even though the different languages using it use slightly different versions of it (more, or fewer, characters))...for just in case.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > H
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Julie Michutka
                                              >
                                              > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:20 PM
                                              >
                                              > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              > Subject: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up
                                              >
                                              > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start
                                              >
                                              > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what
                                              >
                                              > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would
                                              >
                                              > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a
                                              >
                                              > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Julie Michutka
                                              >
                                              > jmm@...<mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when
                                              >
                                              > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on
                                              >
                                              > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who
                                              >
                                              > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those
                                              >
                                              > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was
                                              >
                                              > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian
                                              >
                                              > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,
                                              >
                                              > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'
                                              >
                                              > > provinces.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > Martin
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • William C. Wormuth
                                              Curt, I do realize what you are saying andbut was not clear in my message.  These people are Slovaks but because of their Greek Catholic religion, wrote in
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Nov 17, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Curt,
                                                I do realize what you are saying andbut was not clear in my message.  These people are Slovaks but because of their Greek Catholic religion, wrote in Cyrilic
                                                z Bohom,
                                                Vilo

                                                --- On Tue, 11/16/10, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                                                From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>
                                                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 7:46 PM







                                                 









                                                Vilo,

                                                Cyrillic is just the alphabet, not a language. What language these people spoke is another question. Some spoke an Eastern Slovak dialect, some spoke what some call Rusyn, and others further east spoke Ukrainian. From just an inscription or even a short text one frequently can't tell. There are great arguments about this among partisans and scholars. I don't get involved in those discussions. I am just confronted with written monuments, documents, and texts and deal with each one separately.



                                                Curt B.



                                                --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:

                                                >

                                                > My first exposure to Cyrill in Slovakia was in the Greek Catholic cemetery in Huta, near Bardejov.  Most of the writing on the stones was in Cyrilic, (not "Ukrainian")

                                                >

                                                > Vilo

                                                >

                                                > --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Fedor, Helen <hfed@...> wrote:

                                                >

                                                > From: Fedor, Helen <hfed@...>

                                                > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs

                                                > To: "'Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com'" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>

                                                > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 9:13 AM

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >  

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > Let me add 'Ukrainian' to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad's village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a few years, then reverted back to Hungarian. It couldn't hurt to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (even though the different languages using it use slightly different versions of it (more, or fewer, characters))...for just in case.

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > H

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Julie Michutka

                                                >

                                                > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:20 PM

                                                >

                                                > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

                                                >

                                                > Subject: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up

                                                >

                                                > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start

                                                >

                                                > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what

                                                >

                                                > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would

                                                >

                                                > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a

                                                >

                                                > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > Julie Michutka

                                                >

                                                > jmm@...<mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when

                                                >

                                                > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?

                                                >

                                                > >

                                                >

                                                > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on

                                                >

                                                > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who

                                                >

                                                > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.

                                                >

                                                > >

                                                >

                                                > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those

                                                >

                                                > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was

                                                >

                                                > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian

                                                >

                                                > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,

                                                >

                                                > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'

                                                >

                                                > > provinces.

                                                >

                                                > >

                                                >

                                                > >

                                                >

                                                > > Martin

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                >

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                                                >

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                                                >

                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                >

























                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • LongJohn Wayne
                                                Were not the Byzantine churches nationalistic in nature?  Would they not have been Slovak  Orthodox? ... From: William C. Wormuth Subject:
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Nov 17, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Were not the Byzantine churches nationalistic in nature?  Would they not have been Slovak  Orthodox?

                                                  --- On Wed, 11/17/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:

                                                  From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 8:32 PM







                                                   









                                                  Curt,

                                                  I do realize what you are saying andbut was not clear in my message.  These people are Slovaks but because of their Greek Catholic religion, wrote in Cyrilic

                                                  z Bohom,

                                                  Vilo



                                                  --- On Tue, 11/16/10, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:



                                                  From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>

                                                  Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs

                                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 7:46 PM



                                                   



                                                  Vilo,



                                                  Cyrillic is just the alphabet, not a language. What language these people spoke is another question. Some spoke an Eastern Slovak dialect, some spoke what some call Rusyn, and others further east spoke Ukrainian. From just an inscription or even a short text one frequently can't tell. There are great arguments about this among partisans and scholars. I don't get involved in those discussions. I am just confronted with written monuments, documents, and texts and deal with each one separately.



                                                  Curt B.



                                                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:



                                                  >



                                                  > My first exposure to Cyrill in Slovakia was in the Greek Catholic cemetery in Huta, near Bardejov.  Most of the writing on the stones was in Cyrilic, (not "Ukrainian")



                                                  >



                                                  > Vilo



                                                  >



                                                  > --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Fedor, Helen <hfed@...> wrote:



                                                  >



                                                  > From: Fedor, Helen <hfed@...>



                                                  > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                                                  > To: "'Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com'" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>



                                                  > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 9:13 AM



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >  



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > Let me add 'Ukrainian' to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad's village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a few years, then reverted back to Hungarian. It couldn't hurt to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (even though the different languages using it use slightly different versions of it (more, or fewer, characters))...for just in case.



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > H



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Julie Michutka



                                                  >



                                                  > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:20 PM



                                                  >



                                                  > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com



                                                  >



                                                  > Subject: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up



                                                  >



                                                  > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start



                                                  >



                                                  > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what



                                                  >



                                                  > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would



                                                  >



                                                  > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a



                                                  >



                                                  > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > Julie Michutka



                                                  >



                                                  > jmm@...<mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when



                                                  >



                                                  > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?



                                                  >



                                                  > >



                                                  >



                                                  > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on



                                                  >



                                                  > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who



                                                  >



                                                  > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.



                                                  >



                                                  > >



                                                  >



                                                  > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those



                                                  >



                                                  > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was



                                                  >



                                                  > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian



                                                  >



                                                  > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,



                                                  >



                                                  > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'



                                                  >



                                                  > > provinces.



                                                  >



                                                  > >



                                                  >



                                                  > >



                                                  >



                                                  > > Martin



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                  >



                                                  >



                                                  >



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                                                  >



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                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                  >



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • William C. Wormuth
                                                  I am a Roman Catholic and have limited knowledge concerning the Byzantine Church.  I do know that my the referenced church was Greek Catholic and because the
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Nov 18, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I am a Roman Catholic and have limited knowledge concerning the Byzantine Church. 

                                                    I do know that my the referenced church was Greek Catholic and because the language used in the mass was "old Slav", (as I believe), was as written by St. John Chrysostom. Cyrillic is the written form of the mass for the Slavs.  Therefore, the writing on the stones, reflect the belief of the people and have nothing to do with nationality. 
                                                    I believe that the mass is the same in all  Byzantine Uniate as well as the Orthodox Churches.

                                                    It would be interesting to all if someone here were to supply factual info on the history of slovak and Rusin Byzantines and the Rusin, "Russian" Orthodox, whose adherent were Greek Orthodox Uniate believers.

                                                    Z Bohom,

                                                    Vilo

                                                    --- On Wed, 11/17/10, LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...> wrote:

                                                    From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs
                                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 9:53 PM







                                                     









                                                    Were not the Byzantine churches nationalistic in nature?  Would they not have been Slovak  Orthodox?



                                                    --- On Wed, 11/17/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:



                                                    From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>

                                                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs

                                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

                                                    Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 8:32 PM



                                                     



                                                    Curt,



                                                    I do realize what you are saying andbut was not clear in my message.  These people are Slovaks but because of their Greek Catholic religion, wrote in Cyrilic



                                                    z Bohom,



                                                    Vilo



                                                    --- On Tue, 11/16/10, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:



                                                    From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>



                                                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com



                                                    Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 7:46 PM



                                                     



                                                    Vilo,



                                                    Cyrillic is just the alphabet, not a language. What language these people spoke is another question. Some spoke an Eastern Slovak dialect, some spoke what some call Rusyn, and others further east spoke Ukrainian. From just an inscription or even a short text one frequently can't tell. There are great arguments about this among partisans and scholars. I don't get involved in those discussions. I am just confronted with written monuments, documents, and texts and deal with each one separately.



                                                    Curt B.



                                                    --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:



                                                    >



                                                    > My first exposure to Cyrill in Slovakia was in the Greek Catholic cemetery in Huta, near Bardejov.  Most of the writing on the stones was in Cyrilic, (not "Ukrainian")



                                                    >



                                                    > Vilo



                                                    >



                                                    > --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Fedor, Helen <hfed@...> wrote:



                                                    >



                                                    > From: Fedor, Helen <hfed@...>



                                                    > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                                                    > To: "'Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com'" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>



                                                    > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 9:13 AM



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >  



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > Let me add 'Ukrainian' to your list. Imagine my surprise when the church records for my dad's village (SSE of Kos~ice) suddenly appeared in Ukrainian for a few years, then reverted back to Hungarian. It couldn't hurt to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (even though the different languages using it use slightly different versions of it (more, or fewer, characters))...for just in case.



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > H



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Julie Michutka



                                                    >



                                                    > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:20 PM



                                                    >



                                                    > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com



                                                    >



                                                    > Subject: [Slovak-World] languages, was: Geo-miscrafs



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > Martin (and anyone else who is knowledgeable), if I can ever scrape up



                                                    >



                                                    > the money to get back to Slovakia and get to some archives to start



                                                    >



                                                    > digging into sources of local history, verrry roughly how much of what



                                                    >



                                                    > might be available will be in Hungarian? I'm assuming that I would



                                                    >



                                                    > run into Latin, Slovak, German, and Hungarian. I realize I'm asking a



                                                    >



                                                    > nearly impossible-to-accurately-answer question, but still I wonder....



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > Julie Michutka



                                                    >



                                                    > jmm@...<mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:43 PM, votrubam wrote:



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > >> During which time frame? Was there no time frame when



                                                    >



                                                    > >> Hungarian was taught during the Austo-Hungarian reign?



                                                    >



                                                    > >



                                                    >



                                                    > > The strongest pressure to impose Hungarian ethnicity and language on



                                                    >



                                                    > > the non-ethnic-Hungarian subjects of the Kingdom of Hungary, who



                                                    >



                                                    > > were in the majority when all were added up, started in the 1870s.



                                                    >



                                                    > >



                                                    >



                                                    > > Helen's question was about the language taught in Silesia to those



                                                    >



                                                    > > who left the Kingdom to attend high schools there. Hungarian was



                                                    >



                                                    > > not taught anywhere in the Habsburg monarchy (i.e., the Austrian



                                                    >



                                                    > > Empire, renamed and hyphenated A-H in 1867) outside of the Kingdom,



                                                    >



                                                    > > which was only one of the about three dozen of the Habsburgs'



                                                    >



                                                    > > provinces.



                                                    >



                                                    > >



                                                    >



                                                    > >



                                                    >



                                                    > > Martin



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    >



                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                    >



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