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Traditional agriculture--46

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  • Fedor, Helen
    During the feudal period, the importance of animal breeding increased in parallel with the development of agriculture, and also with the country s development
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 28, 2010
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      During the feudal period, the importance of animal breeding increased in parallel with the development of agriculture, and also with the country's development overall. The Wallachian Colonization that took place on Slovak territory in the 15th-17th centuries played an important role in the development of animal breeding. The colonization, and the system of so-called Wallachian sheep breeding, were rather quickly adopted, not only on feudal estates, but also on feudal land-estates [Anyone know the difference here?], reaching Slovak territory from the Carpathian regions to the east.

      Until then, sheep in Slovakia were grazed only in the lowlands or valleys, but Wallachian breeding-also called mountain sheepfolding-made use of pastures and ridges located at higher elevations, which had not been the case earlier. This system of sheep breeding also influenced other components of culture and the way of life: the structure of agriculture, settlement patterns, food, the artistic culture, etc. This period saw the beginning of a symbiosis between sheep farming and mountain sheepfolding. Both these systems gradually drew closer together, and accommodated the agricultural needs of the time.

      During the feudal period, cattle breeding in mountainous areas was essential, because livestock production here supplemented agriculture. In lowland areas, breeding was more limited by a shortage of pastures. However, farm animals here also were an important part of the economy of farming estates, primarily as draft animals. These were mainly oxen, whose ratio to horses, even at the beginning of the 18th century, was 2:1. The number of horses was higher towards the south, where they were bred more in the flatter regions.

      It was mainly landlords (especially those involved in the transport business) and the army (for the needs of the state) who were interested in increasing the number of their horses. Often during this period, a large number of cattle were bred for draft teams rather than for milk and meat. The best conditions for breeding cattle were in northern Slovakia. For example, in northwest Slovakia, in the first half of the 18th century, one serf family bred an average of 6-7 head of cattle, although there were also cases of 15-20 head per family.

      H
      All opinions and guesses my own


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Armata, Joseph R
      One of Helen s latest agriculture posts mentioned horses. I find it interesting that some ethnic groups traditionally ride horses, while others use them only
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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        One of Helen's latest agriculture posts mentioned horses. I find it interesting that some ethnic groups traditionally ride horses, while others use them only as draft animals. (I'm not talking about horse riding as a sport among the upper classes, but about daily village/town life.)

        My impression is that the Slavs, at least the northern group (Eastern & Western) are decidedly in the draft animal category. They don't ride horses except for ritual or special occasions like inviting people to weddings, or spring horse rituals like the Ride of Kings in Moravia or the Easter races among the Wends. Someone going visiting would never ride a horse, they'd harness the horse to a wagon and ride the empty wagon. I lived in Poland for a year ages ago, and while I commonly saw people riding in horse-drawn wagons, even in the streets of Krakow, I never saw anyone ride horseback (except for once at a folk festival reenacting wedding invitations).

        There are exceptions to the rule of course - from what I've read, Slavs who do ride horses include the plains folk in western Poland (Biskupizna area), and the Hutsuls in the Carpathians (one source I read attributed this to a Turkic substrata there).

        I'm not clear about western Europe. Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?

        Over in Asia on the other hand, people seem to be in the horse rider camp. I realize Asia is a big place, but I think of Turks, Mongols, Tatars, Tibetans, all horseback riders.

        Any thoughts on this from our world travelers? Do I just not get out enough?

        Joe
      • LongJohn Wayne
        I saw a riding club in a small  town on a prior to trip to SK in 2007.  But that was either a jumper club or dressage. I did see a lovely young lady riding
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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          I saw a riding club in a small  town on a prior to trip to SK in 2007.  But that was either a jumper club or dressage.

          I did see a lovely young lady riding through town on a warm spring day in Hlucin CZ last year.  So perhaps that is a recent phenomenon.

          My 1.5 cents, since I no longer have 2.

          --- On Fri, 7/30/10, Armata, Joseph R <armata@...> wrote:

          From: Armata, Joseph R <armata@...>
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Slavs and Horseback Riding
          To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 9:56 AM







           









          One of Helen's latest agriculture posts mentioned horses. I find it interesting that some ethnic groups traditionally ride horses, while others use them only as draft animals. (I'm not talking about horse riding as a sport among the upper classes, but about daily village/town life.)



          My impression is that the Slavs, at least the northern group (Eastern & Western) are decidedly in the draft animal category. They don't ride horses except for ritual or special occasions like inviting people to weddings, or spring horse rituals like the Ride of Kings in Moravia or the Easter races among the Wends. Someone going visiting would never ride a horse, they'd harness the horse to a wagon and ride the empty wagon. I lived in Poland for a year ages ago, and while I commonly saw people riding in horse-drawn wagons, even in the streets of Krakow, I never saw anyone ride horseback (except for once at a folk festival reenacting wedding invitations).



          There are exceptions to the rule of course - from what I've read, Slavs who do ride horses include the plains folk in western Poland (Biskupizna area), and the Hutsuls in the Carpathians (one source I read attributed this to a Turkic substrata there).



          I'm not clear about western Europe. Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?



          Over in Asia on the other hand, people seem to be in the horse rider camp. I realize Asia is a big place, but I think of Turks, Mongols, Tatars, Tibetans, all horseback riders.



          Any thoughts on this from our world travelers? Do I just not get out enough?



          Joe

























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • votrubam
          ... A great observation, Joe. The Asian Ugric tribes (later Hungarians) that invaded Central and Western Europe in the 10th cent. had an important advantage
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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            > Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?
            >
            > Over in Asia on the other hand

            A great observation, Joe. The Asian Ugric tribes (later Hungarians) that invaded Central and Western Europe in the 10th cent. had an important advantage in this, which helped them destroy Great Moravia, pillage Rome, etc. The European farmers traditionally kept the much stronger heavy/draft horses, the nimble riding breeds were kept by the nobility.


            Martin
          • William C. Wormuth
            My first visit to  CzechoSlovakia was in 1971.  In my travels through Moravia, Zahorie and East to Poprad, I saw people going to fields and through villages
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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              My first visit to  CzechoSlovakia was in 1971.  In my travels through Moravia, Zahorie and East to Poprad, I saw people going to fields and through villages using horse and oxen driven wagons. 
              I suspect that living in this way was out of necessity and traditional due to the strict control by Magyar rulers then  inability to modernize because of the 2 world wars, then communism.
              Life was traditionally hard and  our people could only use the tool available to them. 
              I think you will find that Slovaks did raise and train now famous breeds of horses and I was told by my grandfather the area around Piestany and along the Vah river was such an area.
              the horse breeding was not for use by the Slovaks but for the Magyar aristocracy.
              Most possibly that was the reason for the Hutsel people breeding the most popular breed, the Hutsel horse.
              Life has been very hard for our people.  They had no way to obtain money for more than the bare necessities and usually only the few  Jewish population, official tax collectors for the aristocracy, had the means to have businesses, with few exceptions.
              For that reason our people immigrated to the USA with the aim of making a "fortune", returning home and making an easy life for their families.
              Because of the poor living conditions, horses were used for work transportation of families and not pleasure.
              Development of train transportation was not until after ours.   Therefore wagons were the only means of transport between towns and cities.
              I am not an historian and the information I have is mostly handed down to me from my grandparents.  This includes those facts told to them by their parents.

              Vilo
              --- On Fri, 7/30/10, LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...> wrote:

              From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...>
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slavs and Horseback Riding
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 11:55 AM







               









              I saw a riding club in a small  town on a prior to trip to SK in 2007.  But that was either a jumper club or dressage.



              I did see a lovely young lady riding through town on a warm spring day in Hlucin CZ last year.  So perhaps that is a recent phenomenon.



              My 1.5 cents, since I no longer have 2.



              --- On Fri, 7/30/10, Armata, Joseph R <armata@...> wrote:



              From: Armata, Joseph R <armata@...>

              Subject: [Slovak-World] Slavs and Horseback Riding

              To: "Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com" <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>

              Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 9:56 AM



               



              One of Helen's latest agriculture posts mentioned horses. I find it interesting that some ethnic groups traditionally ride horses, while others use them only as draft animals. (I'm not talking about horse riding as a sport among the upper classes, but about daily village/town life.)



              My impression is that the Slavs, at least the northern group (Eastern & Western) are decidedly in the draft animal category. They don't ride horses except for ritual or special occasions like inviting people to weddings, or spring horse rituals like the Ride of Kings in Moravia or the Easter races among the Wends. Someone going visiting would never ride a horse, they'd harness the horse to a wagon and ride the empty wagon. I lived in Poland for a year ages ago, and while I commonly saw people riding in horse-drawn wagons, even in the streets of Krakow, I never saw anyone ride horseback (except for once at a folk festival reenacting wedding invitations).



              There are exceptions to the rule of course - from what I've read, Slavs who do ride horses include the plains folk in western Poland (Biskupizna area), and the Hutsuls in the Carpathians (one source I read attributed this to a Turkic substrata there).



              I'm not clear about western Europe. Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?



              Over in Asia on the other hand, people seem to be in the horse rider camp. I realize Asia is a big place, but I think of Turks, Mongols, Tatars, Tibetans, all horseback riders.



              Any thoughts on this from our world travelers? Do I just not get out enough?



              Joe



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Matchett
              When I was in Zakopane, Poland in 05, two young men rode horseback through the center of the town. It added interest and nice sound to the video I was
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                When I was in Zakopane, Poland in '05, two young men rode horseback
                through the center of the town. It added interest and nice sound to
                the video I was taking. Julia Matchett

                On Jul 30, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:

                > One of Helen's latest agriculture posts mentioned horses. I find it
                > interesting that some ethnic groups traditionally ride horses, while
                > others use them only as draft animals. (I'm not talking about horse
                > riding as a sport among the upper classes, but about daily village/
                > town life.)
                >
                > My impression is that the Slavs, at least the northern group
                > (Eastern & Western) are decidedly in the draft animal category. They
                > don't ride horses except for ritual or special occasions like
                > inviting people to weddings, or spring horse rituals like the Ride
                > of Kings in Moravia or the Easter races among the Wends. Someone
                > going visiting would never ride a horse, they'd harness the horse to
                > a wagon and ride the empty wagon. I lived in Poland for a year ages
                > ago, and while I commonly saw people riding in horse-drawn wagons,
                > even in the streets of Krakow, I never saw anyone ride horseback
                > (except for once at a folk festival reenacting wedding invitations).
                >
                > There are exceptions to the rule of course - from what I've read,
                > Slavs who do ride horses include the plains folk in western Poland
                > (Biskupizna area), and the Hutsuls in the Carpathians (one source I
                > read attributed this to a Turkic substrata there).
                >
                > I'm not clear about western Europe. Maybe not riding horses is
                > Europe-wide?
                >
                > Over in Asia on the other hand, people seem to be in the horse rider
                > camp. I realize Asia is a big place, but I think of Turks, Mongols,
                > Tatars, Tibetans, all horseback riders.
                >
                > Any thoughts on this from our world travelers? Do I just not get out
                > enough?
                >
                > Joe
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Claudia Medvik
                I do know that emmigrants in the US, mostly farmers, kept horses for only work purposes. Laura Ingels Wilder s father used the team 6 days a week on the
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                  I do know that emmigrants in the US, mostly farmers, kept horses for only work purposes. Laura Ingels Wilder's father used the 'team' 6 days a week on the farm, and let them rest Sunday's. So the family walked to church. The girls walked miles to school in all kinds of weather. I assume this was a custom brought from Europe. And in Britain before the advent of the tractor, teams of horses were for ploughing and farm work. Attached is a picture of a huge team pulling an old harvester.

                  Also, the price of a saddle would be beyond most people's means. Harness could be made at home with blacksmith parts. But a saddle was more complicated than any furniture or wagon. Ask my sister, she rode English for years. Saddles are locked up even today because of their value. A poor farmer could barely afford the leather of his boots much less a saddle..



                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  From: votrubam@...
                  Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:27:56 +0000
                  Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding






                  > Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?
                  >
                  > Over in Asia on the other hand

                  A great observation, Joe. The Asian Ugric tribes (later Hungarians) that invaded Central and Western Europe in the 10th cent. had an important advantage in this, which helped them destroy Great Moravia, pillage Rome, etc. The European farmers traditionally kept the much stronger heavy/draft horses, the nimble riding breeds were kept by the nobility.

                  Martin





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • votrubam
                  ... The key thing was that they were _draft/heavy horses_ (i.e., breeds that are different from riding horses), Claudia. They were not trained to be saddled
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                    > the price of a saddle would be beyond most people's means.

                    The key thing was that they were _draft/heavy horses_ (i.e., breeds that are different from riding horses), Claudia. They were not trained to be saddled (and it would not even be that easy to put a saddle on them or sit on them simply because of their body structure). That type, a draft/heavy horse, was what "a horse" commonly meant in Europe throughout much of its more distant history.


                    Martin
                  • coptic2@aol.com
                    By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road fast nimble horses. In a message dated 7/30/2010 11:32:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ... A great
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                      By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road fast nimble horses.


                      In a message dated 7/30/2010 11:32:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
                      votrubam@... writes:




                      > Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?
                      >
                      > Over in Asia on the other hand

                      A great observation, Joe. The Asian Ugric tribes (later Hungarians) that
                      invaded Central and Western Europe in the 10th cent. had an important
                      advantage in this, which helped them destroy Great Moravia, pillage Rome, etc.
                      The European farmers traditionally kept the much stronger heavy/draft horses,
                      the nimble riding breeds were kept by the nobility.

                      Martin






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • William C. Wormuth
                      Many of our folk songs attest to this. vilo ... From: coptic2@aol.com Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding To:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                        Many of our folk songs attest to this.

                        vilo

                        --- On Fri, 7/30/10, coptic2@... <coptic2@...> wrote:

                        From: coptic2@... <coptic2@...>
                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 10:31 PM







                         









                        By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road fast nimble horses.





                        In a message dated 7/30/2010 11:32:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

                        votrubam@... writes:



                        > Maybe not riding horses is Europe-wide?

                        >

                        > Over in Asia on the other hand



                        A great observation, Joe. The Asian Ugric tribes (later Hungarians) that

                        invaded Central and Western Europe in the 10th cent. had an important

                        advantage in this, which helped them destroy Great Moravia, pillage Rome, etc.

                        The European farmers traditionally kept the much stronger heavy/draft horses,

                        the nimble riding breeds were kept by the nobility.



                        Martin



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • votrubam
                        ... Of course. They could not have ridden the horses that the farmers kept. Martin
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                          > By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road
                          > fast nimble horses.

                          Of course. They could not have ridden the horses that the farmers kept.


                          Martin
                        • votrubam
                          ... There are no folk songs about the Slovak cavalry. All the Slovak folk songs concerning the army and horses refer to the Habsburg army, the army of the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                            >> By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road
                            >> fast nimble horses.
                            >
                            > Many of our folk songs attest to this.

                            There are no folk songs about "the Slovak cavalry." All the Slovak folk songs concerning the army and horses refer to the Habsburg army, the army of the Austrian monarchy.


                            Martin
                          • lkocik@comcast.net
                            ... From: votrubam To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 04:02:19 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                              ...not to beat a dead horse, as far as this thread is going, but wasn't the Hapsburg army that of the Hungarian Empire as opposed to the Austrians'. Or were they one in the same?
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 04:02:19 -0000 (UTC)
                              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding













                              >> By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road


                              >> fast nimble horses.


                              >


                              > Many of our folk songs attest to this.



                              There are no folk songs about "the Slovak cavalry." All the Slovak folk songs concerning the army and horses refer to the Habsburg army, the army of the Austrian monarchy.



                              Martin








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • William C. Wormuth
                              Martin, I didn t agree with Slovak Cavalry , I understood it to mean mean, Slovaks riding in the Cavalry, as in the song Slovak som a Slovak budem. That song
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 30, 2010
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                                Martin,
                                I didn't agree with "Slovak Cavalry", I understood it to mean mean, Slovaks riding in the Cavalry, as in the song Slovak som a Slovak budem.
                                That song so impressed me as a 6 year old, I used to dream of me riding a big white horse, wearing a cape and brandishing a shiny sword.

                                And this made me feel brave:
                                 

                                neumriem na slame,


                                umriem ja na koni


                                a ked z kona spadnem,

                                sablenka zavoni

                                Z Bohom,

                                Vilko

                                --- On Sat, 7/31/10, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                                From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 12:02 AM







                                 









                                >> By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road

                                >> fast nimble horses.

                                >

                                > Many of our folk songs attest to this.



                                There are no folk songs about "the Slovak cavalry." All the Slovak folk songs concerning the army and horses refer to the Habsburg army, the army of the Austrian monarchy.



                                Martin

























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • votrubam
                                ... Understood, Vilko. ... They were one and the same, Larry. Even after the 1867 compromise and hyphenation of the monarchy (_Austro-Hungarian_ instead of
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                                  > "Slovak Cavalry", I understood it to mean mean, Slovaks
                                  > riding in the Cavalry

                                  Understood, Vilko.


                                  > wasn't the Hapsburg army that of the Hungarian Empire as
                                  > opposed to the Austrians'. Or were they one in the same?

                                  They were one and the same, Larry. Even after the 1867 compromise and hyphenation of the monarchy (_Austro-Hungarian_ instead of the previous _Austrian_), the army remained centralized and united, as did the whole country's finances and foreign policy. The three corresponding departments (government ministries) were only in Vienna, not in Budapest. BTW, there never was an entity called the "Hungarian Empire," the only name the body politic ever had was _the Kingdom of Hungary_.


                                  Martin
                                • Carl
                                  While it is true that there was no Slovak cavalry , there were Hussar regiments that were made up primarily from the Slovak regions of Hungary. During the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                                    While it is true that there was no "Slovak cavalry", there were Hussar regiments that were made up primarily from the Slovak regions of Hungary. During the Napoleonic era, the Austrian Army had the largest cavalry in all of Europe. They had approximately 45,000 soldiers in various types of cavalry units. Hussars were light cavalry and came primarily from Hungary. In 1800, the 10th Hussar regiment came from what is now Eastern Slovakia and the 8th Hussars came from what is now Western Slovakia. Because the Austrian Cavalry was so large at this time, young men who could ride were usually conscripted into cavalry units. Shepherds were also more likely to be placed in cavalry units than farmers. And since it took longer to train a horseman vs someone in the infantry, cavalry soldiers typically had to serve actively for longer periods before being placed in the reserves.

                                    --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "votrubam" <votrubam@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >> By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road
                                    > >> fast nimble horses.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many of our folk songs attest to this.
                                    >
                                    > There are no folk songs about "the Slovak cavalry." All the Slovak folk songs concerning the army and horses refer to the Habsburg army, the army of the Austrian monarchy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Martin
                                    >
                                  • votrubam
                                    ... Of course. The Habsburg army made units of people with the same mother tongue, Slovak, Romanian, Hungarian, Croatian, German... in order to facilitate
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                                      > it is true that there was no "Slovak cavalry", there were
                                      > Hussar regiments that were made up primarily from the
                                      > Slovak regions of Hungary

                                      Of course. The Habsburg army made units of people with the same mother tongue, Slovak, Romanian, Hungarian, Croatian, German... in order to facilitate communication.


                                      Martin
                                    • LongJohn Wayne
                                      Vilko: I can almost see you, even w/ your visor down. Chuck Vilko s Squire ... From: William C. Wormuth Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 2 10:39 AM
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                                        Vilko:

                                        I can almost see you, even w/ your visor down.

                                        Chuck
                                        Vilko's Squire

                                        --- On Sat, 7/31/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:

                                        From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding
                                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 2:47 AM







                                         









                                        Martin,

                                        I didn't agree with "Slovak Cavalry", I understood it to mean mean, Slovaks riding in the Cavalry, as in the song Slovak som a Slovak budem.

                                        That song so impressed me as a 6 year old, I used to dream of me riding a big white horse, wearing a cape and brandishing a shiny sword.



                                        And this made me feel brave:

                                         



                                        neumriem na slame,



                                        umriem ja na koni



                                        a ked z kona spadnem,



                                        sablenka zavoni



                                        Z Bohom,



                                        Vilko



                                        --- On Sat, 7/31/10, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:



                                        From: votrubam <votrubam@...>

                                        Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Slavs and Horseback Riding

                                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com

                                        Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 12:02 AM



                                         



                                        >> By grandfather was in the Slovak cavalry and they road



                                        >> fast nimble horses.



                                        >



                                        > Many of our folk songs attest to this.



                                        There are no folk songs about "the Slovak cavalry." All the Slovak folk songs concerning the army and horses refer to the Habsburg army, the army of the Austrian monarchy.



                                        Martin



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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