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Re: Food & Eating-25

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  • votrubam
    ... No, conspicuous is na padny in Slovak. Martin
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 3 6:18 AM
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      > Just another word, conspicuous

      No, conspicuous is na'padny' in Slovak.


      Martin
    • Ron
      Food and Eating ANIMAL FATS p.109
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4 11:06 PM
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        Food and Eating
        ANIMAL FATS p.109
        <<" butter was whipped manually in a long wooden vessel with a shaft that ended in a circular board with openings">>
        <butter churn>
        There was one still in use by one family I visited in 1970.

        Stepping into the dangerous complexities of language:
        "<<Vnu'trozemsky' is "landlocked,>>"
        My mind automatically thinks interior or inland, as Interior Alaska; it is a distinct region, but without specific, surveyed borders. Perhaps an East Coaster can think of the variations in meaning of "Appalachia". For Interior, my computer dictionary gives Vnu'trozemnjnhy' or vnutorny> (yes, it is an electronic dictionary and gave two answers when asked different ways).

        <<"Food & Eating"—19 For a long time, beer was not as popular in Slovakia as it was in the Czech or German lands. Change came gradually, only during the 20th century, when beers of high quality and affordable price were first brewed in Slovakia">>

        Interesting that you properly chose "affordable" where the author chose "convenient".
        In dealing with English speaking Russians in the Baltics they occasionally would state that something was "not convenient" and in each case we ended up agreeing on a more "convenient" solution. Eventually I ciphered out that their use of "not convenient" meant "not possible". I believe I confirmed that mis-definition is common in their Russian language dictionaries.

        The point is that I see the same root problem here, where the beer in Slovakia became popular once it became "convenient" or "possible, affordable".

        I wonder how typical this is of Slavic languages translating to English??


        "There were already two wine-making regions in the Middle Ages, …"

        If we fall back on the Hungarian fairy tales of their arrival in the Danubian Basin, they "arrived in an empty land, and rode their horses past the vineyard workers to the top of the hill and claimed this land for the king".

        It sounds like Columbus arriving, but refusing to acknowledge that there were natives. I have read some references to Roman influence beyond the Limes establishing vineyards in Slovakia.
        _ _ _ _
        My electronic notes were not 100% on these, and I am working from 2 computers these days, preparing a new netbook for travels this summer. Nice, but troublesome when you connect to the internet & do work on 2 different computers!

        The next posting should bring my questions and comments up to date. They are sitting on the other computer!

        Thanks for your patience, all of your work, Helen, and your clarifications, Martin!

        Ron
      • Ron
        Food & Eating —20
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 4 11:22 PM
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          Food & Eating"—20

          <<Alcohol distillates (brandy from wine, cereals, or fruit juices) have
          been produced since the Middle Ages. …. Until the 20th century, brandy was also distilled illegally from various raw materials, often with serious health consequences, mainly in village households, At present, the production of distillates in legal distilleries [licensed stills?] is permitted by the state,… >>

          as acousin described it to me, they can take their fruit to the official distillery and receive distilled alcohol. I don't know the details of rate of exchange, quality (what I tasted wasn't as good as home made!) or options in strength and flavor, or triple distillation. This reminded me of taking apples to the "Wiloughby Winery" for pressing into apple juice, exchanging fruit for juice.

          Food & Eating"--21
          THE EATING TIMETABLE

          <<"the practice of a so-called double breakfast">>
          This is still practiced by some tradesmen in Germany, generally about 6 & 9 AM.

          Food & Eating"--22 <<"In the folk culture, the most commonly used names for the three basic meals "sn~adan~je." >>
          Snidane is still commonly used in the Czech republic and understood in Slovakia.

          inland[??]

          Vnu'trozemsky' is "landlocked, "it is dangerous to step into the field of language with declensions, cases and meanings, but being from Alaska I took it to mean "interior", as we refer to "Interior Alaska" as a specific region but without finely defined borders, perhaps as easterners use Appalachia for a general region with somewhat varying borders… And this matches up with my dictionary saying "vnútorný vnutorny".
          "landlocked."? Perhaps accurate but not as we would apply it.
        • Ron
          24 Ways of Eating
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 4 11:25 PM
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            24 "Ways of Eating"
            <<The table itself, as well as the corner of the room where it stood, was considered a sacred space.">>
            Helen, here the authors used the word "cult space" and in communist era papers I have always seen "cult corner" (used later on the same page) for the corner of the room where the holy pictures or icons were kept. Thus "sacred space" for payer and eating is quite appropriate, but I wonder what meaning the traditional (pre-communist) Slovak words for this corner may have carried.

            <<"In some households, the tradition of all family members eating from one big bowl lasted into the early part of the 20th century.">> My mother told of my 5 year old uncle teaching English to the "Russians" on the next farm in PA, and how my grandmother introduced them to individual dishes and silverware – in the 1930's.

            <<"Eating from a single large bowl disappeared gradually, particularly once the old patriarchal system of family life began to disintegrate.">>
            This tells us that we are not the first to experience the disintegration of the family as we hold it dear. Combined with massive emigration of the younger generation, it would be a time of turmoil.
          • Helen Fedor
            Maybe I missed it the first time you explained it, but what s the difference between tas~lky and pirohy ? H All opinions my own ... Probably
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 5 6:48 AM
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              Maybe I missed it the first time you explained it, but what's the difference between "tas~lky" and "pirohy"?

              H
              All opinions my own



              >>> "votrubam" <votrubam@...> 4/2/2010 1:11 PM >>>
              > The most expressive[?] regional variation was krac~un

              Probably najvy'raznejs~i, the most distinctive, noticeable, emblematic. (Their mix-up probably stems from vy'raz = expression.)


              > Pasta, such as noodles with poppy seed
              > or filled pies [no doubt the tas~ky

              The tasky can also be closer to ravioli:

              <http://tinyurl.com/yjta6x6>
              <http://tinyurl.com/ykyk89c>

              This version has typically been filled with jam, poppy seeds, cottage cheese (but also meat, and on the cheap with cabbage, even mashed potatoes).


              Martin
            • votrubam
              ... The labels cult or sacred are what academics use to describe the people s approach to it. What it means is that the corner was not treated like the
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 5 7:10 AM
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                > what meaning the traditional (pre-communist) Slovak words for
                > this corner may have carried.

                The labels "cult" or "sacred" are what academics use to describe the people's approach to it. What it means is that the corner was not treated like the rest of the room, but people used no such descriptive word although they were able to describe it in vaguely related terms when pressed (there would typically be a cross, a religious picture, statuette, on the wall there).

                Although with a greater dose of religiosity in the case of the "eating corner," an aspect of people's take on it was comparable to having a special room to receive guests in wealthier homes in the past ("drawing room," "salon") -- a spiffy room where children weren't allowed to play, etc., a special area in one's home whose use and even entry was subject to a degree of ceremonial regulation.


                > "interior", as we refer to "Interior Alaska"

                I agree, Ron. The problem is not so much the word (interior/inland/landlocked), but that the authors imagined that Slovak culture was an "interior" culture _as opposed to_ the cultures of the Saxons and Bavarians (the main "Teutonic" immigrants to Slovakia).

                The authors confused modern countries with historical ethnic cultures. Most European ethnic cultures were interior cultures -- including the cultures of the immigrant Saxons and Bavarians in the 13th and subsequent centuries, whose cultures the authors confuse with a modern pan-German culture (not a particularly "seafaring" culture in its entirety, either).


                > Russians in the Baltics they occasionally would state that
                > something was "not convenient" and in each case we ended up
                > agreeing on a more "convenient" solution. Eventually I ciphered
                > out that their use of "not convenient" meant "not possible".

                The above is a cultural difference (not a likely problem with English as in the book). The Central Europeans do not say "inconvenient" in order to avoid a direct refusal or rejection. They sometimes see the degree to which such avoidance occurs, e.g., in Russian culture as an "eastern" habit.


                >> "Eating from a single large bowl disappeared
                >> gradually, particularly once the old patriarchal system
                >
                > This tells us that we are not the first to experience the
                > disintegration of the family

                Somewhat similar to the authors' "interior" conjecture, what they say here certainly doesn't hold water with Slovak burghers', noblemen's, and professionals' historical customs. Eating from a common dish disappeared so long ago among them that there's no record of it and yet, there was no family disintegration.

                The book misstates two parallel occurrences in (merely) some farmers' lives -- family structure and the use of dishes -- as causally related, which they were not.


                Martin
              • votrubam
                ... The latter one is not a traditional word in much of Slovakia, most people think of it as foreign, Russian, Ukrainian. As to what the labels refer
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 5 7:26 AM
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                  > the difference between "tas~ky" and "pirohy"?

                  The latter one is not a traditional word in much of Slovakia, most people think of it as "foreign," "Russian," "Ukrainian." As to what the labels refer to, there's a lot of overlap.


                  Martin
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