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WWII Slovak Republik

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  • William C. Wormuth
    Perhaps some have some memories form our families of what occurred during and just after the wars end: My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 10, 2010
      Perhaps some have some memories form our families of

      what occurred during and just after the wars end:

      My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and
      Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.

      As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.

      Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.

      They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.

      The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.

      The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.

      Vilo


      ________________________________




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron
      It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin s town. It wasn t so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
        It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.

        In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.

        That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.

        Ron

        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
        >
        > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of
        >
        > what occurred during and just after the wars end:
        >
        > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and
        > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.
        >
        > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.
        >
        > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.
        >
        > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.
        >
        > The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.
        >
        > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.
        >
        > Vilo
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Mader, Michelle A. (GRC-CHC0)
        I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband s father fought
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
          I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband's father fought on the Axis side. The Russians did rape the Germans quite wantonly and several of my husband's very young and elderly relatives suffered this fate. On the other hand, my father's troops were the first ones to reach and free one of the concentration camps. Plenty of first-hand knowledge about the evil the Germans did.

          My children are in the interesting position of knowing that their grandparents were literally at war with each other.

          Michelle Maco Mader
          Cleveland, Ohio USA
          From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron
          Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:39 AM
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik



          It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.

          In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.

          That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.

          Ron

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Slovak-World%40yahoogroups.com>, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of
          >
          > what occurred during and just after the wars end:
          >
          > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and
          > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.
          >
          > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.
          >
          > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.
          >
          > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.
          >
          > The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.
          >
          > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.
          >
          > Vilo
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Claudia Medvik
          I have bio, Hour of the Women of an East German lady, Libussa von Krockow, who said the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons back to
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
            I have bio, 'Hour of the Women' of an East German lady, Libussa von Krockow, who said the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons back to Russia. And they forced young girls to herd the cattle who were never heard from again. I can guess this happened also in other countries as well?



            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            From: Michelle.A.Mader@...
            Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:31:27 -0600
            Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik





            I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband's father fought on the Axis side. The Russians did rape the Germans quite wantonly and several of my husband's very young and elderly relatives suffered this fate. On the other hand, my father's troops were the first ones to reach and free one of the concentration camps. Plenty of first-hand knowledge about the evil the Germans did.

            My children are in the interesting position of knowing that their grandparents were literally at war with each other.

            Michelle Maco Mader
            Cleveland, Ohio USA
            From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron
            Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:39 AM
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik

            It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.

            In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.

            That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.

            Ron

            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Slovak-World%40yahoogroups.com>, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
            >
            > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of
            >
            > what occurred during and just after the wars end:
            >
            > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and
            > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.
            >
            > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.
            >
            > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.
            >
            > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.
            >
            > The people in K�ty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.
            >
            > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.
            >
            > Vilo
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            _________________________________________________________________
            Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
            http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William C. Wormuth
            Claudia, No I have never heard of caoturing younf girls but I can believe it. My favorite was that the Russians stole the Sinks and toilets from a fancy hotel
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
              Claudia,

              No I have never heard of caoturing younf girls but I can believe it.

              My favorite was that the Russians stole the Sinks and toilets from a fancy hotel in Vienna. They placed tgem in their homes in Russia then cursed God because the water didn't flow.




              ________________________________
              From: Claudia Medvik <cmmedvik@...>
              To: SlovakWorld <slovak-world@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 2:07:48 PM
              Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik


              I have bio, 'Hour of the Women' of an East German lady, Libussa von Krockow, who said the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons back to Russia. And they forced young girls to herd the cattle who were never heard from again. I can guess this happened also in other countries as well?



              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              From: Michelle.A.Mader@...
              Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:31:27 -0600
              Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik





              I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband's father fought on the Axis side. The Russians did rape the Germans quite wantonly and several of my husband's very young and elderly relatives suffered this fate. On the other hand, my father's troops were the first ones to reach and free one of the concentration camps. Plenty of first-hand knowledge about the evil the Germans did.

              My children are in the interesting position of knowing that their grandparents were literally at war with each other.

              Michelle Maco Mader
              Cleveland, Ohio USA
              From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron
              Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:39 AM
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik

              It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.

              In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.

              That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.

              Ron

              --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Slovak-World%40yahoogroups.com>, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...> wrote:
              >
              > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of
              >
              > what occurred during and just after the wars end:
              >
              > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and
              > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.
              >
              > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.
              >
              > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.
              >
              > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.
              >
              > The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.
              >
              > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.
              >
              > Vilo
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              _________________________________________________________________
              Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
              http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • votrubam
              ... [...] ... Not to the same degree. They did it more freely in Germany, because they saw it as reparations from _the_ enemy who attacked, destroyed, and
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                > the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons
                > back to Russia.
                [...]
                > happened also in other countries as well?

                Not to the same degree. They did it more freely in Germany, because they saw it as reparations from _the_ enemy who attacked, destroyed, and killed them. Slovakia, which attacked the Soviet Union ("Russia") side-by-side with the German troops (as did Hungary, Romania) was reunited with the Czech part after WW II and, as a result, was treated as "Czechoslovakia," a victim of German aggression, not an attacker, by the Allies, including by the U.S.

                Martin
              • Ron
                For anyone really interested in the aftermath of the war, there is an autobiographical book published in West Germany in the 1950 s by a woman telling how she
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                  For anyone really interested in the aftermath of the war, there is an autobiographical book published in West Germany in the 1950's by a woman telling how she coped with the rape. It caused quite a scandal, as the topic was verbotten by society in West Germany and by politics in East Germany, so the book was never a best seller. Recently the Germans produced a movie "A Woman in Berlin" based on the book. Perhaps it will come to America in the art theaters.

                  I lived in Germany for 9 of my 10 years in Europe & had regular contact with former soldiers from the war. There was quite a cross section - two severely wounded, one a 'good SS' as opposed to 'bad SS' (he had to hide his former ID as Americans were hunting for all SS after the war for special handling), and a socialist drafted at the tender age of 17 in time to be traumatized and join in the defeat. Oh, and then there was the skunk who was in the Wehrmacht for 13 years (3 years of it in POW camp) who behaved much like an ex-nazi. To my Aunt's credit (the Aunt mercilessly beaten by the German soldiers), when I visited Slovakia with my German fiance she and the family showed no hesitation in extending their welcome.

                  Ron

                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Claudia Medvik <cmmedvik@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I have bio, 'Hour of the Women' of an East German lady, Libussa von Krockow, who said the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons back to Russia. And they forced young girls to herd the cattle who were never heard from again. I can guess this happened also in other countries as well?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: Michelle.A.Mader@...
                  > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:31:27 -0600
                  > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband's father fought on the Axis side. The Russians did rape the Germans quite wantonly and several of my husband's very young and elderly relatives suffered this fate. On the other hand, my father's troops were the first ones to reach and free one of the concentration camps. Plenty of first-hand knowledge about the evil the Germans did.
                  >
                  > My children are in the interesting position of knowing that their grandparents were literally at war with each other.
                  >
                  > Michelle Maco Mader
                  > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                  > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron
                  > Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:39 AM
                  > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik
                  >
                  > It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.
                  >
                  > In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.
                  >
                  > That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.
                  >
                  > Ron
                  >
                  > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Slovak-World%40yahoogroups.com>, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of
                  > >
                  > > what occurred during and just after the wars end:
                  > >
                  > > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and
                  > > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.
                  > >
                  > > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.
                  > >
                  > > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.
                  > >
                  > > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.
                  > >
                  > > The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.
                  > >
                  > > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.
                  > >
                  > > Vilo
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                  > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • William C. Wormuth
                  Martin, Thanks! I had never thought of the situation in this light: Czechoslovakia, a victim of German aggression, not an attacker, by the Allies, including
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                    Martin,

                    Thanks!
                    I had never thought of the situation in this light: "Czechoslovakia, " a victim of German aggression, not an attacker, by the Allies, including by the U.S." .

                    Now I have a better understanding as to the reason the Nazi Label given to Monsignor Jozef Tiso and the 1st Slovak Republik.

                    also it is very interesting to read from contributors about the treatment of people in other areas. I do not know if it made a difference but the people of Zahorie had command of the German language as their "second language".

                    Just a humerous point here that you might understand. There is an old joke told in Zahorie: Keď Nemci boli útek, vojak Kucan zastavil a opýtal sa: "je to cesta do Deutschland? Odpoveď znela:" Prvá C~ary potom Dojč~ ".

                    Vilo




                    ________________________________
                    From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 5:58:25 PM
                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik


                    > the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons
                    > back to Russia.
                    [...]
                    > happened also in other countries as well?

                    Not to the same degree. They did it more freely in Germany, because they saw it as reparations from _the_ enemy who attacked, destroyed, and killed them. Slovakia, which attacked the Soviet Union ("Russia") side-by-side with the German troops (as did Hungary, Romania) was reunited with the Czech part after WW II and, as a result, was treated as "Czechoslovakia, " a victim of German aggression, not an attacker, by the Allies, including by the U.S.

                    Martin







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • lkocik@comcast.net
                    Ron Your input here is insightful and finally makes me realize the question I need to ask;... This is tricky to phrase with sensitivity. ...Can I make a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                      Ron
                      Your input here is insightful and finally makes me realize the question I need to ask;...
                      This is tricky to phrase with sensitivity.
                      ...Can I make a distinction between a member of the German Army [non commissioned types] and a member of the Nazi party. Could a German citizen with a sense of patriotism, which I can understand and respect, serve his counrty with honor as a soldier, as opposed to one choosing to serve the ideals of the nazi party. Or more simply;could you be a loyal soldier without having to embrace the ideals of the Nazi party?
                      Can I direct my hatred associated with the holacost to the Nazi party
                      exclusivly and look for honorable intentions with the German army?The fact Hitler was "commander-in-chief" of both entities clouds the issue, but even there, Hitler in the early years was instrumental in bringing Germany from the devastation on the first world war back to a vital world power... Certainly something the German people could rightly ralley behind. I do realize German soldiers committed atrocities, but as Ben Sorenson pointed out so didn't members of all armies throughout history...including U.S. soldiers, so I need to keep that subject seperate.
                      Finding the distinction I'm after would help me understand the attitude of the Slovak people in WW2. Is it concievable that the people who had no choice in having to live with this war could have made this distinction.
                      Lastly, after reading Vilo's input I could defineately understand choosing the lesser of the two evils when you compare the German army and the Red army.
                      again with respect to everyone's sensibilities...
                      Larry From: Ron
                      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:19:16 +0000 (UTC)
                      Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik













                      For anyone really interested in the aftermath of the war, there is an autobiographical book published in West Germany in the 1950's by a woman telling how she coped with the rape. It caused quite a scandal, as the topic was verbotten by society in West Germany and by politics in East Germany, so the book was never a best seller. Recently the Germans produced a movie "A Woman in Berlin" based on the book. Perhaps it will come to America in the art theaters.



                      I lived in Germany for 9 of my 10 years in Europe & had regular contact with former soldiers from the war. There was quite a cross section - two severely wounded, one a 'good SS' as opposed to 'bad SS' (he had to hide his former ID as Americans were hunting for all SS after the war for special handling), and a socialist drafted at the tender age of 17 in time to be traumatized and join in the defeat. Oh, and then there was the skunk who was in the Wehrmacht for 13 years (3 years of it in POW camp) who behaved much like an ex-nazi. To my Aunt's credit (the Aunt mercilessly beaten by the German soldiers), when I visited Slovakia with my German fiance she and the family showed no hesitation in extending their welcome.



                      Ron



                      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Claudia Medvik <cmmedvik@...> wrote:


                      >


                      >


                      > I have bio, 'Hour of the Women' of an East German lady, Libussa von Krockow, who said the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons back to Russia. And they forced young girls to herd the cattle who were never heard from again. I can guess this happened also in other countries as well?


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com


                      > From: Michelle.A.Mader@...


                      > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:31:27 -0600


                      > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      > I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband's father fought on the Axis side. The Russians did rape the Germans quite wantonly and several of my husband's very young and elderly relatives suffered this fate. On the other hand, my father's troops were the first ones to reach and free one of the concentration camps. Plenty of first-hand knowledge about the evil the Germans did.


                      >


                      > My children are in the interesting position of knowing that their grandparents were literally at war with each other.


                      >


                      > Michelle Maco Mader


                      > Cleveland, Ohio USA


                      > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron


                      > Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:39 AM


                      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com


                      > Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik


                      >


                      > It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.


                      >


                      > In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.


                      >


                      > That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.


                      >


                      > Ron


                      >


                      > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Slovak-World%40yahoogroups.com>, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@> wrote:


                      > >


                      > > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of


                      > >


                      > > what occurred during and just after the wars end:


                      > >


                      > > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and


                      > > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.


                      > >


                      > > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.


                      > >


                      > > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.


                      > >


                      > > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.


                      > >


                      > > The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.


                      > >


                      > > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.


                      > >


                      > > Vilo


                      > >


                      > >


                      > > ________________________________


                      > >


                      > >


                      > >


                      > >


                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      > >


                      >


                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      >


                      > __________________________________________________________


                      > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.


                      > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/


                      >


                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      >








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • votrubam
                      ... Yes, Vilo, those are the marvels of international diplomacy. Once WW II was over, London and Paris were so embarrassed by their role in Munich in 1938,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                        > I had never thought of the situation in this light:
                        > "Czechoslovakia, " a victim of German aggression

                        Yes, Vilo, those are the marvels of international diplomacy. Once WW II was over, London and Paris were so embarrassed by their role in Munich in 1938, that they decided, and Washington went along, that in diplomatic terms, "Munich" wasn't an agreement, Czechoslovakia never ceased to exist, and Slovakia never was a separate country. The propagandists faced an issue when on the one hand, e.g., they wanted to blame Bratislava for the deportation of the Jews, and on the other hand to say that Slovakia was as much part of Germany as Bohemia and Moravia were.

                        That never became much of a conundrum to address under the Communist regimes, they didn't trouble themselves with facts and contradictions, but it is indicative of the world as it is that the historians in the democracies danced exactly the same dance the whole time. It didn't begin to change until the collapse of Communism.

                        Martin
                      • votrubam
                        ... That s the illusion of a country as if it were an ethical value in itself. No one who serves a totalitarian regime, in whatever function, with
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                          > German citizen with a sense of patriotism, which I can
                          > understand and respect, serve his counrty with honor
                          > as a soldier

                          That's the illusion of "a country" as if it were an ethical value in itself. No one who serves a totalitarian regime, in whatever function, with enthusiasm "serves his country with honor." Those distinctions are clearer in Central Europe:

                          Slovaks and Czechs defected from the Habsburg army on a massive scale during WW I, they put ethical values above "their country," the Habsburg monarchy. No one except anti-democrats blamed the defectors from the Slovak Army fighting for "their country" during WW II, only the anti-democrats would have blamed defectors from the Czechoslovak Army if, in a WW III, "their country" were fighting the democratic West.

                          There would be no value in having the US if it were a dictatorship, just like there is no value in having mainland China, North Korea, Belarus, Myanmar/Burma... Where the borders are drawn has nothing to do with ethics, morality.

                          Martin
                        • William C. Wormuth
                          As in all countries, Armed Forces personnel are Obliged under penaltyto follow orders or face court marshal. In wartime an order disobeyed in the field could
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                            As in all countries, Armed Forces personnel are Obliged under penaltyto follow orders or face court marshal. In wartime an order disobeyed in the field could mean immediate execution by a superior officer.

                            I would believe that the conscripted members of the German Army had noo choice but to obey. I also believe that the "party members" and believers in Hitlers Philosophy, were those responsible fro the atrocities.

                            It is hard to define who was holy and who was sinful but the one case I mentioned is that the solders who were retreating from our village knocked on doors to warn the people to hide their young daughters and valueables. I have always been impressed with that happening.

                            Vilo




                            ________________________________
                            From: "lkocik@..." <lkocik@...>
                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 8:55:31 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik


                            Ron
                            Your input here is insightful and finally makes me realize the question I need to ask;...
                            This is tricky to phrase with sensitivity.
                            ...Can I make a distinction between a member of the German Army [non commissioned types] and a member of the Nazi party. Could a German citizen with a sense of patriotism, which I can understand and respect, serve his counrty with honor as a soldier, as opposed to one choosing to serve the ideals of the nazi party. Or more simply;could you be a loyal soldier without having to embrace the ideals of the Nazi party?
                            Can I direct my hatred associated with the holacost to the Nazi party
                            exclusivly and look for honorable intentions with the German army?The fact Hitler was "commander-in- chief" of both entities clouds the issue, but even there, Hitler in the early years was instrumental in bringing Germany from the devastation on the first world war back to a vital world power... Certainly something the German people could rightly ralley behind. I do realize German soldiers committed atrocities, but as Ben Sorenson pointed out so didn't members of all armies throughout history...including U.S. soldiers, so I need to keep that subject seperate.
                            Finding the distinction I'm after would help me understand the attitude of the Slovak people in WW2. Is it concievable that the people who had no choice in having to live with this war could have made this distinction.
                            Lastly, after reading Vilo's input I could defineately understand choosing the lesser of the two evils when you compare the German army and the Red army.
                            again with respect to everyone's sensibilities. ..
                            Larry From: Ron
                            To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:19:16 +0000 (UTC)
                            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik

                            For anyone really interested in the aftermath of the war, there is an autobiographical book published in West Germany in the 1950's by a woman telling how she coped with the rape. It caused quite a scandal, as the topic was verbotten by society in West Germany and by politics in East Germany, so the book was never a best seller. Recently the Germans produced a movie "A Woman in Berlin" based on the book. Perhaps it will come to America in the art theaters.

                            I lived in Germany for 9 of my 10 years in Europe & had regular contact with former soldiers from the war. There was quite a cross section - two severely wounded, one a 'good SS' as opposed to 'bad SS' (he had to hide his former ID as Americans were hunting for all SS after the war for special handling), and a socialist drafted at the tender age of 17 in time to be traumatized and join in the defeat. Oh, and then there was the skunk who was in the Wehrmacht for 13 years (3 years of it in POW camp) who behaved much like an ex-nazi. To my Aunt's credit (the Aunt mercilessly beaten by the German soldiers), when I visited Slovakia with my German fiance she and the family showed no hesitation in extending their welcome.

                            Ron

                            --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Claudia Medvik <cmmedvik@.. .> wrote:

                            >

                            >

                            > I have bio, 'Hour of the Women' of an East German lady, Libussa von Krockow, who said the Russians tooks everything, every horse, cows, ect and wagons back to Russia. And they forced young girls to herd the cattle who were never heard from again. I can guess this happened also in other countries as well?

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com

                            > From: Michelle.A.Mader@ ...

                            > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:31:27 -0600

                            > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > I got to hear this from both sides as my Slovak-American father (and his 3 brothers) all fought on the side of the Allies and my German husband's father fought on the Axis side. The Russians did rape the Germans quite wantonly and several of my husband's very young and elderly relatives suffered this fate. On the other hand, my father's troops were the first ones to reach and free one of the concentration camps. Plenty of first-hand knowledge about the evil the Germans did.

                            >

                            > My children are in the interesting position of knowing that their grandparents were literally at war with each other.

                            >

                            > Michelle Maco Mader

                            > Cleveland, Ohio USA

                            > From: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ron

                            > Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:39 AM

                            > To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com

                            > Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republik

                            >

                            > It sounds like the Germans would kill you in a nice gentlemanly manner in your cousin's town. It wasn't so luxurious in Sulin where the Germans beat the crap out of my aunt with their rifle butts and left her with hungry kids and the frame of the house. There were no complaints about the Russians when they arrived, perhaps in part because of the Partizans who fought against the nazis.

                            >

                            > In most histories I read they refer to the front line troops of any army as quite well disciplined, as you might expect from a soldier who's life depends upon his comrades. It was the second wave of troops that had to be watched out for. Worthy of note also is the reference to "Asiatic troops", which has the propaganda effect of making the raping and despoliation all the worse.

                            >

                            > That is not to say there is not a core of truth to one story or another. The Soviets did have a policy of rape and revenge for the damage the Nazis did to their people, and the writing of history is quite flexible.

                            >

                            > Ron

                            >

                            > --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com<mailto:Slovak- World%40yahoogro ups.com>, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@> wrote:

                            > >

                            > > Perhaps some have some memories form our families of

                            > >

                            > > what occurred during and just after the wars end:

                            > >

                            > > My friend Jan told me how the fighting between Germans and

                            > > Russians was like a war film...."The troops would be firing at each other, hiding around the corners of houses. If a child ran out into the street, the firing stopped until the mother came running to get the child.

                            > >

                            > > As the Germans were about to retreat, they knocked on doors and told people to spread the word that if they had any valuables, or young daughters, hide them because the Russians would rape and pillage.

                            > >

                            > > Rape and Pillage began with the first wave consisting of were Asiatic soldiers. They raped my cousins old grandmother on her deathbed.

                            > >

                            > > They came to the door of a friend and demanded she make coffee. She told them that she did not have any but they threatened to kill her unless she complied. She boiled beans and they thought it was coffee.

                            > >

                            > > The people in Kúty, had buried the dead adjacent to the church. When the Russians came they made them dig up the rotting corpses and transport them, in wagons to the cemetery, located outside of the village. The task was a filthy stinking mess, with body parts falling from the wagons.

                            > >

                            > > The second wave of Russians were more humane but seeds of what was to come.

                            > >

                            > > Vilo

                            > >

                            > >

                            > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                            > >

                            > >

                            > >

                            > >

                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            > >

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

                            > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.

                            > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 196390707/ direct/01/

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • votrubam
                            ... But after the war, it was not clear who was ordered to do what and how much of it. Where s the evidence whether private A was ordered to kill 2 people in
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                              > I would believe that the conscripted members of the German
                              > Army had noo choice but to obey.

                              But after the war, it was not clear who was ordered to do what and how much of it.

                              Where's the evidence whether private A was ordered to kill 2 people in the village, 8, 17? Rape one or two women? Was he really in the position that he either killed 7 or would be killed himself, or could he have killed 5 and still remain alive?

                              If private B exterminated a whole village just to save himself, couldn't the only moral choice have been to refuse and die?

                              Those are the problems. There is no blanket moral pardon for someone obeying orders of any sort, including military orders.


                              > As in all countries, Armed Forces personnel are Obliged under
                              > penaltyto follow orders or face court marshal.

                              The ethic of that isn't so simple, either, e.g., guards in concentration camps who helped exterminate people were tried and sentenced after WW II. The law and any penalty it entails is one thing, but "moral, ethical, right" are not the same as "the law."

                              Martin
                            • Ron
                              Larry, Yes, I will say that a German citizen could be a loyal patriot and not be a Nazi. The German Socialist that I mentioned before came from a politically
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                                Larry,

                                Yes, I will say that a German citizen could be a loyal patriot and not be a Nazi. The German Socialist that I mentioned before came from a politically active Socialist family, and they had to keep their mouths shut during the Nazi time. Socialists were among the first residents of Dachau. The boy had to go in the army when drafted - or be shot.

                                All of the right wingers that fled Eastern Europe and communism were not Nazis (using the Cold War designation for Eastern Central Europe). They may have fought with the German Nazis against the Soviets, but that fight would easily attract Nationalists, Royalists, and good Christians wanting to fight the godless Bolsheviks. Oh, and attract Hungarians who wanted to restore historical Hungary, reversing the treaty of Trianon – making Slovaks Hungarian subjects again. Personally I do not refer to the Tiso Slovak government as Nazi but rather prefer the term Clerico-Faschist. I have read a lot of history from western refugees and some from the communists and do not claim to be an expert, but I prefer this unique designation for Tiso, just as Mussolini and Franco had their own brands of Fascism. The Tiso government does seem to fit Clerico-Fascism.

                                Once you get into a war I believe that loyalty goes from the abstract fighting for the country to the stronger drive of fighting for your fellow soldiers. From my personal experience I don't trust armies or officers. They are the careerists and the fanatics. Who was a Nazi or a fanatic or a racist comes down to a personal evaluation. I don't fully trust the Germans to this day. Their voice changes ever so subtly when they mention Poles. That said, I want to emphasize that the German people and the country of Germany have removed themselves far, far from the Nazi ideas. To assure there is never a return of a Hitler they take great pains and expense to keep an eye on the neo-Nazi right wing, to protect against thought control (thus they refuse to accept Scientology as a religion and were offended when Tom Cruise played the part of the anti-Nazi fellow in that recent movie. They see Scientology as a mind control group).

                                The German army did commit atrocities on a grand scale, beyond those of most modern armies. The Germans themselves are still struggling with this and a few years ago had a roving photo exhibition and national discussion on to what degree the common soldier was involved in the atrocities of WW II. I believe that old fanaticism is dead, and the racism that went along with their programs is as close to dead as human prejudices anywhere in the world will allow. Perhaps more so than in most of the world, because they have strong memories of where it mis-led them 80 years ago.

                                In some ways I must disagree with what Martin said in an earlier post. Any citizen, even in a dictatorship, will defend his country if it is invaded. You had the USSR and Nazi Germany going at each other, each under a dictatorship. We had Iraq and Iran two decades ago – each fighting patriotically under dictatorships. I haven't offered an opinion to your question of guilt for the Holocaust, was it the Nazis, the German army or the German people who carry responsibility? All must carry a share but Solomon would struggle with it, and a 20 second opinion can only screw it up. To me it is much like Abu Grab today - all of us in America carry that burden, those leaders who perpetrated it, those who executed it, and we citizens who were unaware and decided one way or the other after the fact. I decided during Vietnam they should never put a soldier on trial without having a Colonel or a General sit right beside him awaiting the same punishment. You should see Colonels pale at the thought of answering for the corporate atmosphere they deliberately establish! It all seems a deadly game, one the common man always loses.
                              • William C. Wormuth
                                Martin, You are right again. During the trials the defense for most was, I was only following orders . This went all the way to the Top but did not work.
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 11, 2010
                                  Martin,

                                  You are right again. During the trials the defense for most was, "I was only following orders".

                                  This went all the way to the Top but did not work.

                                  Vilo




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tue, January 12, 2010 12:01:26 AM
                                  Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republic


                                  > I would believe that the conscripted members of the German
                                  > Army had noo choice but to obey.

                                  But after the war, it was not clear who was ordered to do what and how much of it.

                                  Where's the evidence whether private A was ordered to kill 2 people in the village, 8, 17? Rape one or two women? Was he really in the position that he either killed 7 or would be killed himself, or could he have killed 5 and still remain alive?

                                  If private B exterminated a whole village just to save himself, couldn't the only moral choice have been to refuse and die?

                                  Those are the problems. There is no blanket moral pardon for someone obeying orders of any sort, including military orders.

                                  > As in all countries, Armed Forces personnel are Obliged under
                                  > penaltyto follow orders or face court marshal.

                                  The ethic of that isn't so simple, either, e.g., guards in concentration camps who helped exterminate people were tried and sentenced after WW II. The law and any penalty it entails is one thing, but "moral, ethical, right" are not the same as "the law."

                                  Martin







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Gergely
                                  We re going through those same questions today in the US. A family friend is one of the three Seals who Umbamba s politically correct military are now trying
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 12, 2010
                                    We're going through those same questions today in the US. A family friend is one of the three Seals who Umbamba's politically correct military are now trying to screw over for supposedly bitch-slapping the terrorist who killed, hung and publicly burnt the Blackwater guys.
                                    Jack Gergely
                                    Newport News, Occupied Virginia
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: votrubam
                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:01 AM
                                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republic



                                    > I would believe that the conscripted members of the German
                                    > Army had noo choice but to obey.

                                    But after the war, it was not clear who was ordered to do what and how much of it.

                                    Where's the evidence whether private A was ordered to kill 2 people in the village, 8, 17? Rape one or two women? Was he really in the position that he either killed 7 or would be killed himself, or could he have killed 5 and still remain alive?

                                    If private B exterminated a whole village just to save himself, couldn't the only moral choice have been to refuse and die?

                                    Those are the problems. There is no blanket moral pardon for someone obeying orders of any sort, including military orders.

                                    > As in all countries, Armed Forces personnel are Obliged under
                                    > penaltyto follow orders or face court marshal.

                                    The ethic of that isn't so simple, either, e.g., guards in concentration camps who helped exterminate people were tried and sentenced after WW II. The law and any penalty it entails is one thing, but "moral, ethical, right" are not the same as "the law."

                                    Martin





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • lkocik@comcast.net
                                    Martin Thank you...I will hold this as a truth, and gladdly dump all my privious thoughts on this subject. Larry ... From: votrubam To:
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 14, 2010
                                      Martin
                                      Thank you...I will hold this as a truth, and gladdly dump all my privious thoughts on this subject.
                                      Larry

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: votrubam
                                      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:03:06 +0000 (UTC)
                                      Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: WWII Slovak Republic













                                      > German citizen with a sense of patriotism, which I can


                                      > understand and respect, serve his counrty with honor


                                      > as a soldier



                                      That's the illusion of "a country" as if it were an ethical value in itself. No one who serves a totalitarian regime, in whatever function, with enthusiasm "serves his country with honor." Those distinctions are clearer in Central Europe:



                                      Slovaks and Czechs defected from the Habsburg army on a massive scale during WW I, they put ethical values above "their country," the Habsburg monarchy. No one except anti-democrats blamed the defectors from the Slovak Army fighting for "their country" during WW II, only the anti-democrats would have blamed defectors from the Czechoslovak Army if, in a WW III, "their country" were fighting the democratic West.



                                      There would be no value in having the US if it were a dictatorship, just like there is no value in having mainland China, North Korea, Belarus, Myanmar/Burma... Where the borders are drawn has nothing to do with ethics, morality.



                                      Martin








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