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Re: Wki

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  • votrubam
    ... Yes, it happens on a massive scale. Then you find something and see that what you yourself wrote earlier and thought was known wasn t the case either.
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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      > how unreliable many sources- including primary sources-
      > really are.

      Yes, it happens on a massive scale. Then you find something and see that what you yourself wrote earlier and thought was "known" wasn't the case either. And so it goes. That really teaches you how we really live in a mental reality that really ain't the way things really are. 8-)

      > Follow them- and not one source agrees with anything written there.

      Ha! I actually came across a link to something on the Slovak Studies Pages here at Pitt, which -- exactly as you say -- doesn't say what the Wki guy used it to "support."

      Martin
    • Ron
      Ahhh. . . and history as Ben and Martin have pointed out are quite flexible. In my lifetime I have witnessed about 4 events that were later reported in the
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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        Ahhh. . . and history as Ben and Martin have pointed out are quite flexible. In my lifetime I have witnessed about 4 events that were later reported in the newspapers. I almost did not recognize the stories printed!

        So much for going to 'original sources' or 'contemporaneous reports'.

        Now at the price of offending some of you, I will say that I worked up a respect for the Soviets and how they openly re-wrote history. They seemed to recognize the flexibility of it, and were honest and straight forward about changing it to fit the moment. In America we are less open about it. On one hand we have the true believers in a division between "Fox or the Alphabet networks" and choose one or the other to follow and condemn the other as unreliable.

        Complaints about revising history I dismiss, as some of it definitely needs revision. If we stuck with the Hungarian version of history then we would never write the history of the Slovak people. I remember how shocked I was at age 21 when I first heard mention of Black cowboys, what seemed at first blush a ridiculous idea . . . but a topic totally ignored in our history at the time, and one that truly called for a revision.

        Sometimes I must wonder how much difference there is between 'real' history and historical novels.
      • Ron
        Geez, and then we get into proper written language and the difference between are and is when it comes to subject agreement!
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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          Geez, and then we get into proper written language and the difference between are and is when it comes to subject agreement!

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ahhh. . . and history as Ben and Martin have pointed out are quite flexible. In my lifetime I have witnessed about 4 events that were later reported in the newspapers. I almost did not recognize the stories printed!
          >
          > So much for going to 'original sources' or 'contemporaneous reports'.
          >
          > Now at the price of offending some of you, I will say that I worked up a respect for the Soviets and how they openly re-wrote history. They seemed to recognize the flexibility of it, and were honest and straight forward about changing it to fit the moment. In America we are less open about it. On one hand we have the true believers in a division between "Fox or the Alphabet networks" and choose one or the other to follow and condemn the other as unreliable.
          >
          > Complaints about revising history I dismiss, as some of it definitely needs revision. If we stuck with the Hungarian version of history then we would never write the history of the Slovak people. I remember how shocked I was at age 21 when I first heard mention of Black cowboys, what seemed at first blush a ridiculous idea . . . but a topic totally ignored in our history at the time, and one that truly called for a revision.
          >
          > Sometimes I must wonder how much difference there is between 'real' history and historical novels.
          >
        • votrubam
          ... Ha, ha! An excellent point and a fun way of putting it, Ron. ... Their version for the domestic audience, though, was that their new historical narrative
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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            > wonder how much difference there is between 'real'
            > history and historical novels.

            Ha, ha! An excellent point and a fun way of putting it, Ron.

            > seemed to recognize the flexibility of it, and were honest and
            > straight forward about changing it to fit the moment.

            Their version for the domestic audience, though, was that their new historical narrative was the ultimate truth and not to be questioned. That "fit the moment" was applied to the histories written by others. There was no honesty about the Communists' utilitarian motives under their own rule, as opposed to, perhaps, among the Marxists in the West.

            Martin
          • cerrunos1@yahoo.com
            Speaking of histories, I have been reading two histories- one called _Ivan s War_ and another called _Stopy davnej minulosti_. The one in Slovak is wonderful-
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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              Speaking of histories, I have been reading two histories- one called _Ivan's War_ and another called _Stopy davnej minulosti_. The one in Slovak is wonderful- but the one in English hit directly on one of my biggest pet peeves (pat piv? To je vela...) :-). When speaking to Russian locals, the writer depicts their speech as truncated and them as 'simple.' Many English-speaking historians have a bad habit of translating villagers in Russia (and in Sloavkia, for that matter) in a way that makes them seem like idiots- knowing many of these 'simple people' personally, I can see how one not very familiar with slavic languages would hear it as truncated or simple- but it is an injustice to these villagers. Those people were hardly as simple as they are today depicted... Grrr.
              Ben
              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: "votrubam" <votrubam@...>
              Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:45:54
              To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Wki

              > wonder how much difference there is between 'real'
              > history and historical novels.

              Ha, ha! An excellent point and a fun way of putting it, Ron.

              > seemed to recognize the flexibility of it, and were honest and
              > straight forward about changing it to fit the moment.

              Their version for the domestic audience, though, was that their new historical narrative was the ultimate truth and not to be questioned. That "fit the moment" was applied to the histories written by others. There was no honesty about the Communists' utilitarian motives under their own rule, as opposed to, perhaps, among the Marxists in the West.

              Martin





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            • William C. Wormuth
              O k Marcin, guessI have to rely on my memories given by those who lived then. You can may this here say but I mustbelieve those whom I loved and are no
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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                O'k Marcin, guessI have to rely on my memories given by those who lived then. You can may this " here say" but I mustbelieve those whom I loved and are no longer here.

                I do remember the war well. My birthday is Dec. 7,1935 and as my mother was preparing dinner, her brother was there, listening to the radio. When they announced the Attack, he shouted to my mother to come from the kitchen. "What is wrong" she said, "thereis a war" he repled and they both cried.

                My Mother's sister was an Army nurse and she participated in the second wave at Normandy. she continued all the way to Vienna. She wanted to visit our relatives in Kúty but was denied passage by her superiors.

                She had seen piles of bodies from prison camps and she was called on frequently to translate from Slovaks and Czechs, (some of whom were captive Nazis from Sudetenland).

                We attended Novena of the Blessed Virgin, once a week to pray for my Aunt and all the fighters.

                She came home safely but suffered a nervous breakdown, soon after she came home.

                Thanks Martin, I had never heard that Wiki was known as very unreliable.

                Vilo




                ________________________________
                From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 2:38:02 AM
                Subject: [Slovak-World] Wki


                > I am answering your message as a continuation of discussion.

                Not you, Vilo. There's no way to discuss things with Wki. Anyone, no matter how ill informed, ignorant, biased, hateful... can write anything there, and does. It is not a meaningful source of information when it comes to sensitive ethnic and national issues. Just check the link that Ben just posted, should one regard that as a factual account too?

                There are dozens of pages in Wki on the same topic that contradict each other, including on matters Slovak, depending on who happened to win the battle over that page and managed to get it locked, or watches over it constantly (our students often don't have a clue, for instance, that you can set it so that you get an e-mail the minute anyone changes anything on a page, dash there, and change it back to your "truth" -- Wki warriors do it on a massive scale).

                Regardless, Wki is not a SK-W member and does not post here. But it's easier to grasp the blurring and pother with Wki and similar web pages as sources.

                Martin







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • votrubam
                ... Yes, Vilo, for interests sake: director Steven Spielberg s research team discovered that when working on the screenplay of Saving Private Ryan (1998).
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 5, 2010
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                  > she was called on frequently to translate from Slovaks and
                  > Czechs, (some of whom were captive Nazis from Sudetenland).

                  Yes, Vilo, for interests' sake: director Steven Spielberg's research team discovered that when working on the screenplay of Saving Private Ryan (1998). They used it in the opening sequence -- one of the Wehrmacht soldiers being shot at by the US troops during the Normandy Landings in 1944 starts to speak Czech, hoping that it would make him look like he had nothing to do with the war. Spielberg actually cast a Czech stuntman in the role.

                  > never heard that Wiki was known as very unreliable.

                  It varies, it tends to be better at the natural sciences (an academic survey of a few of such topics found them quite correct in Wki's early stages), and worse-to-deranged at controversial topics, which, of course, includes all ethnic, national, political issues, but also global warming, etc. I always suggest to our students to write for Wki for a while (consider it too if you can afford the time), that's the best lesson in its workings and reliability, or "reliability."

                  Martin
                • LongJohn Wayne
                  Hats off to two of the most accurate researchers I know. Chuck [Guilty on occasion of quoting inaccurate sources] [frequently wood-shedded by Martin & Helen]
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 9, 2010
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                    Hats off to two of the most accurate researchers I know.

                    Chuck
                    [Guilty on occasion of quoting inaccurate sources]
                    [frequently wood-shedded by Martin & Helen]

                    --- On Tue, 1/5/10, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:

                    From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Wki
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 10:23 AM







                     









                    Hey Martin,

                    I am sure that you are familiar with Randy Pausch's "Last Lecture" given right down the road at Carnagie Mellon (it is on youTube...):

                    There he jokes that after dealing with _World Book_, Wikipedia seems to be perfectly reliable resource. :-)

                    I know, he was kidding. But it does just show how much work research professors really have to do, and just how unreliable many sources- including primary sources- really are. It certainly instills new respect for people in your position!  I know of a few modern books on the reign of Justinian that actually use the _Secret History_ by Procopius as a source. Shudder.....

                    Ben



                    ____________ _________ _________ __

                    From: votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com>

                    To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com

                    Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 2:38:02 AM

                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Wki



                     

                    > I am answering your message as a continuation of discussion.



                    Not you, Vilo. There's no way to discuss things with Wki. Anyone, no matter how ill informed, ignorant, biased, hateful... can write anything there, and does. It is not a meaningful source of information when it comes to sensitive ethnic and national issues. Just check the link that Ben just posted, should one regard that as a factual account too?



                    There are dozens of pages in Wki on the same topic that contradict each other, including on matters Slovak, depending on who happened to win the battle over that page and managed to get it locked, or watches over it constantly (our students often don't have a clue, for instance, that you can set it so that you get an e-mail the minute anyone changes anything on a page, dash there, and change it back to your "truth" -- Wki warriors do it on a massive scale).



                    Regardless, Wki is not a SK-W member and does not post here. But it's easier to grasp the blurring and pother with Wki and similar web pages as sources.



                    Martin



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                  • William C. Wormuth
                    Dear Group, I wish everyone to say a pray, wishing Helene and Helen God s Blessings on them for Happy and Safe trip today. I will think of them basking in the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 9, 2010
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                      Dear Group,

                      I wish everyone to say a pray, wishing Helene
                      and Helen God's Blessings on them for Happy and Safe trip today. I
                      will think of them basking in the Hot Mud and Mineral Water in Piestany.

                      I cannot say that I "envy them" for their travel to Slovakia, in the winter Time but a good vacation never hurt anybody.
                      Helen, enjoy your Birthday party and remember, NOT TO MUCH SLIVOVICA, you know how it made your toe nails curl, last year.

                      Helene,
                      thanks for the favor of taking the clothing for my cousin. I'll make
                      sure they feed you with as many PAGACE you can eat. That is what the
                      P&E restaurant is for.

                      Este raz, Stastlivu Cestu!

                      S Panem Bohem,

                      Vilo




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • LongJohn Wayne
                      There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia. ... From: William C. Wormuth Subject: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 10, 2010
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                        There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia.

                        --- On Sun, 1/10/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:

                        From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                        Subject: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 12:08 AM







                         











                        Dear Group,



                        I wish everyone to say a pray, wishing Helene

                        and Helen God's Blessings on them for Happy and Safe trip today. I

                        will think of them basking in the Hot Mud and Mineral Water in Piestany.



                        I cannot say that I "envy them" for their travel to Slovakia, in the winter Time but a good vacation never hurt anybody.

                        Helen, enjoy your Birthday party and remember, NOT TO MUCH SLIVOVICA, you know how it made your toe nails curl, last year.



                        Helene,

                        thanks for the favor of taking the clothing for my cousin. I'll make

                        sure they feed you with as many PAGACE you can eat. That is what the

                        P&E restaurant is for.



                        Este raz, Stastlivu Cestu!



                        S Panem Bohem,



                        Vilo



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • William C. Wormuth
                        Prepac~te! You are correct, There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia . ________________________________ From: LongJohn Wayne
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 10, 2010
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                          Prepac~te! You are correct, "There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia".




                          ________________________________
                          From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...>
                          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, January 10, 2010 2:21:04 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine


                          There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia.

                          --- On Sun, 1/10/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@ymail. com> wrote:

                          From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@ymail. com>
                          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine
                          To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 12:08 AM



                          Dear Group,

                          I wish everyone to say a pray, wishing Helene

                          and Helen God's Blessings on them for Happy and Safe trip today. I

                          will think of them basking in the Hot Mud and Mineral Water in Piestany.

                          I cannot say that I "envy them" for their travel to Slovakia, in the winter Time but a good vacation never hurt anybody.

                          Helen, enjoy your Birthday party and remember, NOT TO MUCH SLIVOVICA, you know how it made your toe nails curl, last year.

                          Helene,

                          thanks for the favor of taking the clothing for my cousin. I'll make

                          sure they feed you with as many PAGACE you can eat. That is what the

                          P&E restaurant is for.

                          Este raz, Stastlivu Cestu!

                          S Panem Bohem,

                          Vilo

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • LongJohn Wayne
                          Happy New Year, Vilo! ... From: William C. Wormuth Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine To:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 10, 2010
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                            Happy New Year, Vilo!

                            --- On Sun, 1/10/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:

                            From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@...>
                            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine
                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 2:35 PM







                             









                            Prepac~te! You are correct, "There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia".



                            ____________ _________ _________ __

                            From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@ yahoo.com>

                            To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com

                            Sent: Sun, January 10, 2010 2:21:04 PM

                            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine



                            There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia.



                            --- On Sun, 1/10/10, William C. Wormuth <senzus@ymail. com> wrote:



                            From: William C. Wormuth <senzus@ymail. com>

                            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine

                            To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com

                            Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 12:08 AM



                            Dear Group,



                            I wish everyone to say a pray, wishing Helene



                            and Helen God's Blessings on them for Happy and Safe trip today. I



                            will think of them basking in the Hot Mud and Mineral Water in Piestany.



                            I cannot say that I "envy them" for their travel to Slovakia, in the winter Time but a good vacation never hurt anybody.



                            Helen, enjoy your Birthday party and remember, NOT TO MUCH SLIVOVICA, you know how it made your toe nails curl, last year.



                            Helene,



                            thanks for the favor of taking the clothing for my cousin. I'll make



                            sure they feed you with as many PAGACE you can eat. That is what the



                            P&E restaurant is for.



                            Este raz, Stastlivu Cestu!



                            S Panem Bohem,



                            Vilo



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Julie Michutka
                            ... As much as I respect the knowledge and opinions of the people on this list, I d like to research this for myself before coming to any conclusions! ;-)
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 11, 2010
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                              On Jan 10, 2010, at 2:21 PM, LongJohn Wayne wrote:

                              > There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia.

                              As much as I respect the knowledge and opinions of the people on this
                              list, I'd like to research this for myself before coming to any
                              conclusions! ;-)

                              Julie Michutka, wishing I could visit any time of year
                              jmm@...
                            • William F Brna
                              Julie, I have visited Slovakia in May, August, September and October and enjoyed every visit. I have been fortunate to have stayed with relatives each time,
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 11, 2010
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                                Julie,

                                I have visited Slovakia in May, August, September and October and enjoyed
                                every visit. I have been fortunate to have stayed with relatives each
                                time, so I was able to visit many different high spots, e. g., the Orava
                                Castle, the 34th Annual Folklore Festival in Zuberec, Meander Park, a new
                                (2005) spa in Oravice, the Maria Medvecka Gallery in Tvrdosin. I was
                                invited to a Goral Wedding in Zuberec and Oravice (which I photographed
                                with a camcorder). On my last visit, in August, 2009, we had planned a
                                visit to Auschwitz, but simply ran out of time. I had also planned to
                                visit the Tatra Park but could not do so, since we forgot to bring
                                Polish money and there was no place to convert our money. It is
                                certainly true that there is no bad time to visit Slovakia!

                                William F. Brna

                                On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:06:17 -0500 Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                writes:


                                On Jan 10, 2010, at 2:21 PM, LongJohn Wayne wrote:

                                > There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia.

                                As much as I respect the knowledge and opinions of the people on this
                                list, I'd like to research this for myself before coming to any
                                conclusions! ;-)

                                Julie Michutka, wishing I could visit any time of year
                                jmm@...


                                ____________________________________________________________
                                Weight Loss Program
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • William C. Wormuth
                                The last time I visited in winter was in the 70 s. The Temerature was low but not freezing. Roses were still growing in the front of houses. Everyone was
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 11, 2010
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                                  The last time I visited in winter was in the 70's. The Temerature was low but not freezing. Roses were still growing in the front of houses. Everyone was using that brown coal to heat with. The pollution hung over the village like fog and when the conditions were right came down as low as the rooftops.
                                  Vilo





                                  ________________________________
                                  From: William F Brna <wfbrna@...>
                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 7:33:05 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re:helene Cincebeaux and Helen Zemek Baine

                                  Julie,

                                  I have visited Slovakia in May, August, September and October and enjoyed
                                  every visit. I have been fortunate to have stayed with relatives each
                                  time, so I was able to visit many different high spots, e. g., the Orava
                                  Castle, the 34th Annual Folklore Festival in Zuberec, Meander Park, a new
                                  (2005) spa in Oravice, the Maria Medvecka Gallery in Tvrdosin. I was
                                  invited to a Goral Wedding in Zuberec and Oravice (which I photographed
                                  with a camcorder). On my last visit, in August, 2009, we had planned a
                                  visit to Auschwitz, but simply ran out of time. I had also planned to
                                  visit the Tatra Park but could not do so, since we forgot to bring
                                  Polish money and there was no place to convert our money. It is
                                  certainly true that there is no bad time to visit Slovakia!

                                  William F. Brna

                                  On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:06:17 -0500 Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                  writes:


                                  On Jan 10, 2010, at 2:21 PM, LongJohn Wayne wrote:

                                  > There is no such thing as a bad time to visit Slovakia.

                                  As much as I respect the knowledge and opinions of the people on this
                                  list, I'd like to research this for myself before coming to any
                                  conclusions! ;-)

                                  Julie Michutka, wishing I could visit any time of year
                                  jmm@...


                                  ____________________________________________________________
                                  Weight Loss Program
                                  Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
                                  http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=q26qAzmmAuVizAUvsCmf5wAAJ1D4BwlR4ftpi7iFil_CpFskAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA=

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