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Re: Halpogroups

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  • amiak27
    ... What in the world ever gave you the idea you are of a single nationality or ethnicity ? What is so disturbing about not being able to define yourself
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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      >>>Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I?

      What in the world ever gave you the idea you are of a single 'nationality' or 'ethnicity'? What is so disturbing about not being able to define yourself in one word?

      Ron


      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "j_coulter77" <j_coulter77@...> wrote:
      >
      > After watching the Nat. Geo. special on DNA I started to ask questions and google alot about DNA and where the Carpathian Rus,non Gypsy fall.
      >
      > My initial thought is that we, are like the program said, part of the M173 that migrated into Central Asia but then there is the added issue of the Swedish mix. Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I? Am I Asian, am I Swedish, am I Russian or just some crazy mix of all of that?
      >
      > After reading alot about the Rus I have questions that are not being satisfied by the information that I have found so far... so I will be sending away for the DNA Kit but in the mean time Im just wondering...
      > If someone has any insight please share
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Jennie
      >
    • j_coulter77@yahoo.com
      There is nothing wrong with being multi-ethnic. Its not about not being just one ethnicity, I m also German. What more or less I m looking for is the origin of
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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        There is nothing wrong with being multi-ethnic. Its not about not being just one ethnicity, I'm also German.
        What more or less I'm looking for is the origin of the Rus, and who we are more related to. If one were to be put into a genetic group, what Marker Group would it be? Would it be Group U (Western Eurasia) or Group R1b which is found in Central Europe?

        The question was really were we the group that went right or the group that went left when people migrated into Europe.
        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "amiak27" <amiak27@...>

        Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:26:35
        To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Halpogroups


        >>>Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I?

        What in the world ever gave you the idea you are of a single 'nationality' or 'ethnicity'? What is so disturbing about not being able to define yourself in one word?

        Ron


        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "j_coulter77" <j_coulter77@...> wrote:
        >
        > After watching the Nat. Geo. special on DNA I started to ask questions and google alot about DNA and where the Carpathian Rus,non Gypsy fall.
        >
        > My initial thought is that we, are like the program said, part of the M173 that migrated into Central Asia but then there is the added issue of the Swedish mix. Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I? Am I Asian, am I Swedish, am I Russian or just some crazy mix of all of that?
        >
        > After reading alot about the Rus I have questions that are not being satisfied by the information that I have found so far... so I will be sending away for the DNA Kit but in the mean time Im just wondering...
        > If someone has any insight please share
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Jennie
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • William C. Wormuth
        What would be your feeling if you found that you are part Roma? There were and are out of wedlock pregnancies and it was and is not unusual to have mixed ,
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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          What would be your feeling if you found that you are part Roma? There were and are out of wedlock pregnancies and it was and is not unusual to have "mixed", babies.

          There are also mixed Roma families and it is not unusual to see a Roma mother with dark and light skinned children.

          I heard a word for mixed Roma, "white" Children but cannot remember it.

          Vilo





          ________________________________
          From: amiak27 <amiak27@...>
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 10:26:35 PM
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Halpogroups


          >>>Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I?

          What in the world ever gave you the idea you are of a single 'nationality' or 'ethnicity'? What is so disturbing about not being able to define yourself in one word?

          Ron

          --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, "j_coulter77" <j_coulter77@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > After watching the Nat. Geo. special on DNA I started to ask questions and google alot about DNA and where the Carpathian Rus,non Gypsy fall.
          >
          > My initial thought is that we, are like the program said, part of the M173 that migrated into Central Asia but then there is the added issue of the Swedish mix. Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I? Am I Asian, am I Swedish, am I Russian or just some crazy mix of all of that?
          >
          > After reading alot about the Rus I have questions that are not being satisfied by the information that I have found so far... so I will be sending away for the DNA Kit but in the mean time Im just wondering...
          > If someone has any insight please share
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Jennie
          >







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ben Sorensen
          The next question will be Where did the Swedes come from? I remember in my Byzantine class- we found that the Russian Invasion of 860 was a very Scandinavian
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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            The next question will be "Where did the Swedes come from?"
            I remember in my Byzantine class- we found that the Russian Invasion of 860 was a very Scandinavian event (as these were very likely Vikings or at least closely related to them).  Let's not forget, also, that some surnames in Slovakia are extremely Scandinavian: I have a friend who makes fujaras- he is the nephew of Peter Paciga- his name: Jozef SVOREN.

            If you are going back to the very first origins of a people- then don't forget the Saxons in Slovakia or the Celtic Boii (where we get the name Bohemia from!) in the Czech Republic.  And lets not forget the fact that the Kievan Rus were ruled by Scandinavians for a good period of time....

            What I am getting at here is that you won't be able to fully define yourself as JUST one nationality. The further you go with this, the more convoluted the bloodlines become. I would like to refer you back to Martin's comments on nationality and how one defines himself during our conversation about "Rusyns."
            Ben




            ________________________________
            From: amiak27 <amiak27@...>
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 10:26:35 PM
            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Halpogroups

             
            >>>Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I?

            What in the world ever gave you the idea you are of a single 'nationality' or 'ethnicity'? What is so disturbing about not being able to define yourself in one word?

            Ron

            --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, "j_coulter77" <j_coulter77@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > After watching the Nat. Geo. special on DNA I started to ask questions and google alot about DNA and where the Carpathian Rus,non Gypsy fall.
            >
            > My initial thought is that we, are like the program said, part of the M173 that migrated into Central Asia but then there is the added issue of the Swedish mix. Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I? Am I Asian, am I Swedish, am I Russian or just some crazy mix of all of that?
            >
            > After reading alot about the Rus I have questions that are not being satisfied by the information that I have found so far... so I will be sending away for the DNA Kit but in the mean time Im just wondering...
            > If someone has any insight please share
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Jennie
            >







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Vladimir Linder
            Yes, today I have reached a milestone as I had my 500000 viewer viewing my videos. recently added HIGH QUALITY VIDEOS. Go and take a look. More to come.
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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              Yes, today I have reached a milestone as I had my 500000 viewer
              viewing my videos.

              recently added HIGH QUALITY VIDEOS. Go and take a look. More to come.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B5sHNHY24w

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHU2YHIIlpE

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE8KkssEAuo

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUGN6bJFABA

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbUy9zA4aeA

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXlmRKtdgnA

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzlEuRXhbZw

              Or simply go to:

              www.youtube.com/vladi49

              Vladi
            • jenna-m
              Hi Jennie,   You seem to wonder about matters of   true nationality in terms of biology, but nationalities are social and political creations that often
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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                Hi Jennie,
                 
                You seem to wonder about matters of  "true nationality" in terms of biology, but nationalities are social and political creations that often change based on power relations. For example, in old census records, my grandfather was listed as Czechoslovakian on the 1930 census, as Austrian on the 1920 census and Hungarian on the ship's manifest coming over to the states. Ethnically, he was Slovak and his abilities to speak and understand Slovak were not contingent on whether his ancestors came from a place called Czechoslovakia or the earlier Austro-Hungarian empire (although often times dominant groups try eradicate minority languages in promoting assimilation policies).
                 
                If you want to know more about your proposal as to whether you are "just some crazy mix"...PBS has a great film series and a lot of readings that address that very question. One film series is called "Race: The Power of an Illusion" and Episode One "The Difference Between Us" is particularly relevant to the questions you raise. Of the readings that are posted to the pbs website (at www.pbs.org) one or two by biological anthropologist Alan Goodman discuss processes of mixing, mating, mutating and how we are all mongrels, biologically.
                 
                Parts of Episode One also shows people making discoveries based on decoding DNA sequencing. So you might find it GENERALLY helpful although sending for a DNA kit will move you into more personal territory. Keep us posted as to what discoveries you make in your explorations. 
                 
                Jenna
                 
                 
                 


                --- On Tue, 9/1/09, j_coulter77 <j_coulter77@...> wrote:


                From: j_coulter77 <j_coulter77@...>
                Subject: [Slovak-World] Halpogroups
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 12:15 PM


                 



                After watching the Nat. Geo. special on DNA I started to ask questions and google alot about DNA and where the Carpathian Rus,non Gypsy fall.

                My initial thought is that we, are like the program said, part of the M173 that migrated into Central Asia but then there is the added issue of the Swedish mix. Which leaves me wondering just what true nationality am I? Am I Asian, am I Swedish, am I Russian or just some crazy mix of all of that?

                After reading alot about the Rus I have questions that are not being satisfied by the information that I have found so far... so I will be sending away for the DNA Kit but in the mean time Im just wondering...
                If someone has any insight please share

                Thanks,
                Jennie



















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • LongJohn Wayne
                To all @ S/W:   Thus far, we have visited the following.  My jet lag is better, but I m still in a a daze:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlstein_Castle
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 1, 2009
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                  To all @ S/W:
                   
                  Thus far, we have visited the following.  My jet lag is better, but I'm still in a a daze:
                   
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlstein_Castle
                  http://www.hrad-karlstejn.com/en/
                   
                  http://www.hradceskysternberk.cz/?en.index
                   
                  9/1:
                  http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=m&lat=49.620165&lon=16.34725&zoom=9&q1=prague%2C%20cz&q2=cesky%20sternberk&q3=hlucin%2C%20cz
                   
                  9/2:
                  http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=m&lat=49.280165&lon=18.98773&zoom=9&q1=hlucin%2C%20cz&q2=plavinca%2C%20sk&q3=hlucin%2C%20cz
                   
                  We went to Carlstein & took a tour mit Eva, our lovely Czech guide (saved 200 CZ Koruna each) & Tomas tranlated.  We visited another CZ castle int Cesky Sternberk, but it was closed.  We wandered the grounds & saw the dungeon. And spent the night mit Tomas' Mamy in Hlucin (Ostrava).  Today we go to take Steve to his relatives in Plavnica SK.  Near the Tatras.  It is amazing to be here.  Today had a small bkfst mit Tomas Mamy.  Good STRONG coffee.
                   
                  Smiled yesterday when I saw the Xwalk sign mit the man in the hat walking on the stripes.  And the cute kids mit the hair bow for the school Xing.  So cute.
                   
                  I love the lovely Czech countryside.  Rolling hills & nice castles everywhere.  FRA airport is insane.  Every time I thought I would turn down the wrong corridor & end up on the street.  But I found my way eventually.  PRG airport is MUCH more organized, if you can believe it.  Wide open & simple to navigate.  FRA is like a maze.
                   
                  Sorry to write so much, but I try to keep you posted on where I am.  Much love to you ALL @ S/W for all your help & suggestions.  Any of you who have not been, make time to go!  I am still pinching myself since it is like a dream to wake up here.
                   
                  Especially, Martin, Helen @ LOC, Ben, and all the other regulars that have helped w/ so much input in S/W!
                   
                  No internet access for a few days.  Update you later
                   
                  Steve & Tomas say, "Hi."
                   
                  Chuck from CLT NC.





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • votrubam
                  ... That could translate to First Drinkers of Fresh Cow Milk for the genetic Slovaks and other Central Europeans according to a research article published
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 2, 2009
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                    > "true nationality" in terms of biology

                    That could translate to "First Drinkers of Fresh Cow Milk" for the "genetic" Slovaks and other Central Europeans according to a research article published in Computational Biology this week.

                    It says that humankind first began to drink fresh cow milk (as opposed to mostly fermented sheep or goat milk common elsewhere and earlier) in Central Europe about 7500 years ago and sees a possible link with the spread of the Linear Pottery culture that probably emerged in today's south-western Slovakia and north-western Hungary. Here's a map of, roughly, the original concentration of the lactase gene haplotype needed for fresh milk digestion:

                    <http://tinyurl.com/l5dqus>

                    Slovakia is between the 17th and 30th meridians. A few heavily edited lines from the article:

                    "the spread of the Neolithic lifestyle from the Aegean to Central Europe goes hand in hand with the decline of the importance of sheep and goat and the rise in frequency of cattle [...] the middle Neolithic in SE-Europe and the earliest Neolithic in Central Europe after 7,500 BP show a clear preponderance of cattle [...] the following averaged rates for the respective domestic species: cattle 55.2 percent, sheep and goat 32.6 percent, pig 12 percent.

                    "The proportion of cattle in Central Europe increases during the following centuries to an average of 73 percent [...] a fully developed dairying-based farming economy emerges first during the late Neolithic in Southeast Europe and the Middle Neolithic Cultures following the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) in Central Europe [...]

                    "In the Mediterranean, milking of cattle occurs episodically and sheep and goat remain the dominant domestics, as they were earlier in Anatolia and the Aegean. It is very likely that the goat and sheep, and to a lesser extent cattle, based economies of the Mediterranean used processed milk in the form of yoghurt, cheese and other milk-derived products instead of fresh milk. The nutritional and agricultural differences between southern Europe, the Mediterranean and central and northern Europe, as well as historic reports, point to this. For instance, the Romans used goat and sheep milk for the production of cheese, and cattle as a draught animal. [...] The geographic region of origin of the LBK –- in modern day Northwest Hungary and Southwest Slovakia -– certainly correlates well with our results."

                    The whole rather technical article is here:

                    <http://tinyurl.com/l37g5n>

                    |
                    Martin
                  • votrubam
                    Correction: Slovakia is between the 17th and 22nd meridians, not what I typed in the previous post by mistake. M.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 2, 2009
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                      Correction: Slovakia is between the 17th and 22nd meridians, not what I typed in the previous post by mistake. M.
                    • jenna-m
                      Thanks for posting this, Martin. I love articles that address the interaction between changes in cultural practices and physical composition.   Jenna ...
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                        Thanks for posting this, Martin. I love articles that address the interaction between changes in cultural practices and physical composition.
                         
                        Jenna

                        --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:


                        From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                        Subject: [Slovak-World] Haplogroups
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:29 AM


                         



                        > "true nationality" in terms of biology

                        That could translate to "First Drinkers of Fresh Cow Milk" for the "genetic" Slovaks and other Central Europeans according to a research article published in Computational Biology this week.

                        It says that humankind first began to drink fresh cow milk (as opposed to mostly fermented sheep or goat milk common elsewhere and earlier) in Central Europe about 7500 years ago and sees a possible link with the spread of the Linear Pottery culture that probably emerged in today's south-western Slovakia and north-western Hungary. Here's a map of, roughly, the original concentration of the lactase gene haplotype needed for fresh milk digestion:

                        <http://tinyurl. com/l5dqus>

                        Slovakia is between the 17th and 30th meridians. A few heavily edited lines from the article:

                        "the spread of the Neolithic lifestyle from the Aegean to Central Europe goes hand in hand with the decline of the importance of sheep and goat and the rise in frequency of cattle [...] the middle Neolithic in SE-Europe and the earliest Neolithic in Central Europe after 7,500 BP show a clear preponderance of cattle [...] the following averaged rates for the respective domestic species: cattle 55.2 percent, sheep and goat 32.6 percent, pig 12 percent.

                        "The proportion of cattle in Central Europe increases during the following centuries to an average of 73 percent [...] a fully developed dairying-based farming economy emerges first during the late Neolithic in Southeast Europe and the Middle Neolithic Cultures following the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) in Central Europe [...]

                        "In the Mediterranean, milking of cattle occurs episodically and sheep and goat remain the dominant domestics, as they were earlier in Anatolia and the Aegean. It is very likely that the goat and sheep, and to a lesser extent cattle, based economies of the Mediterranean used processed milk in the form of yoghurt, cheese and other milk-derived products instead of fresh milk. The nutritional and agricultural differences between southern Europe, the Mediterranean and central and northern Europe, as well as historic reports, point to this. For instance, the Romans used goat and sheep milk for the production of cheese, and cattle as a draught animal. [...] The geographic region of origin of the LBK –- in modern day Northwest Hungary and Southwest Slovakia -– certainly correlates well with our results."

                        The whole rather technical article is here:

                        <http://tinyurl. com/l37g5n>

                        |
                        Martin



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Claudia Medvik
                        There was a book published some time recently that postulated that because Europeans live so closely with cattle we developed immunity to some diseases.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                          There was a book published some time recently that postulated that because Europeans live so closely with cattle we developed immunity to some diseases. Something like those Europeans that survived the Black Plague have decendents today that are somewhat resistant to HIV.



                          Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk? Some people say its healthier that pasturized.



                          Claudia



                          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          From: votrubam@...
                          Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 05:29:53 +0000
                          Subject: [Slovak-World] Haplogroups





                          > "true nationality" in terms of biology

                          That could translate to "First Drinkers of Fresh Cow Milk" for the "genetic" Slovaks and other Central Europeans according to a research article published in Computational Biology this week.

                          It says that humankind first began to drink fresh cow milk (as opposed to mostly fermented sheep or goat milk common elsewhere and earlier) in Central Europe about 7500 years ago and sees a possible link with the spread of the Linear Pottery culture that probably emerged in today's south-western Slovakia and north-western Hungary. Here's a map of, roughly, the original concentration of the lactase gene haplotype needed for fresh milk digestion:

                          <http://tinyurl.com/l5dqus>

                          Slovakia is between the 17th and 30th meridians. A few heavily edited lines from the article:

                          "the spread of the Neolithic lifestyle from the Aegean to Central Europe goes hand in hand with the decline of the importance of sheep and goat and the rise in frequency of cattle [...] the middle Neolithic in SE-Europe and the earliest Neolithic in Central Europe after 7,500 BP show a clear preponderance of cattle [...] the following averaged rates for the respective domestic species: cattle 55.2 percent, sheep and goat 32.6 percent, pig 12 percent.

                          "The proportion of cattle in Central Europe increases during the following centuries to an average of 73 percent [...] a fully developed dairying-based farming economy emerges first during the late Neolithic in Southeast Europe and the Middle Neolithic Cultures following the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) in Central Europe [...]

                          "In the Mediterranean, milking of cattle occurs episodically and sheep and goat remain the dominant domestics, as they were earlier in Anatolia and the Aegean. It is very likely that the goat and sheep, and to a lesser extent cattle, based economies of the Mediterranean used processed milk in the form of yoghurt, cheese and other milk-derived products instead of fresh milk. The nutritional and agricultural differences between southern Europe, the Mediterranean and central and northern Europe, as well as historic reports, point to this. For instance, the Romans used goat and sheep milk for the production of cheese, and cattle as a draught animal. [...] The geographic region of origin of the LBK �- in modern day Northwest Hungary and Southwest Slovakia -� certainly correlates well with our results."

                          The whole rather technical article is here:

                          <http://tinyurl.com/l37g5n>

                          |
                          Martin









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                          With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • votrubam
                          ... Rather little. Basically, it s not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op s outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                            > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?

                            Rather little. Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places. But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places. People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.

                            Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers. They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk. Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.

                            The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia. The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:

                            <http://www.polnoinfo.sk/img/34/1016.jpg>
                            <http://tinyurl.com/me5gmc>

                            It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day. The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.


                            Martin
                          • Matchett
                            ... When I was little, we had raw milk delivered. My Slovak father was very particular. He was suspicious of anything done to milk. He was healthy food
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                              On Sep 3, 2009, at 11:40 AM, Claudia Medvik wrote:

                              > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk? Some people say
                              > its healthier that pasturized.
                              > Claudia

                              When I was little, we had "raw" milk delivered. My Slovak father was
                              very particular. He was suspicious of anything done to milk. He was
                              healthy food conscious. When Koolaid came on the market, it was
                              forbidden in our house. We had currant juice, grape juice, tomato,
                              etc. from the garden. Julia M.




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • LongJohn Wayne
                              Martin: What a coincidence.  Today, for the first time in my life, I had my first sip of raw, unpasteurized sheep s milk fresh from the pasture just outside
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                                Martin:

                                What a coincidence.  Today, for the first time in my life, I had my first sip of raw, unpasteurized sheep's milk fresh from the pasture just outside of Stary Lubovna.  I don't suppose that may be slightly OT, but I think it's neat.  Also had some fresh sheep's cheese today that was made earlier in the day, also unpasteurized.

                                I cannot describe how peaceful it was in the shadow of the High Tatras, to see the sheep herded in to the pen for evening milking, their tiny bells sounding like a million wind chimes as they approached.

                                I am truly blessed to be here.  And to have learned to do such crazy things on this site.  I just learned about the Slovak sheep dogs, and met some lovely pups, and some very well-trained adult Cuvacs.  Incredible animals.

                                Off for Parchovany & Kosice tomorrow.  Thank you all for all your help over the years, and for your support!

                                Regards,
                                Chuck
                                Stary Lubovna

                                --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                                From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:30 PM






                                 





                                > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?



                                Rather little. Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places. But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places. People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.



                                Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers. They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk. Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.



                                The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia. The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:



                                <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>

                                <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>



                                It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day. The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.



                                Martin































                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • LongJohn Wayne
                                I have my own issues w/ the OECD calculations.  Certain factors have nothing to do w/ health, & much more to do w/ how the health care is disbursed. ...
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                                  I have my own issues w/ the OECD calculations.  Certain factors have nothing to do w/ 'health," & much more to do w/ how the health care is disbursed.

                                  --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                                  From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                  Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Haplogroups - correction
                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:35 AM






                                   





                                  Correction: Slovakia is between the 17th and 22nd meridians, not what I typed in the previous post by mistake. M.































                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • cerrunos1@yahoo.com
                                  Chuck! I am thrilled to hear that you are having a great time in SK. I wish I were there... Ben Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: LongJohn
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
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                                    Chuck!
                                    I am thrilled to hear that you are having a great time in SK. I wish I were there...
                                    Ben
                                    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...>

                                    Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 15:03:55
                                    To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk


                                    Martin:

                                    What a coincidence.� Today, for the first time in my life, I had my first sip of raw, unpasteurized sheep's milk fresh from the pasture just outside of Stary Lubovna.� I don't suppose that may be slightly OT, but I think it's neat.� Also had some fresh sheep's cheese today that was made earlier in the day, also unpasteurized.

                                    I cannot describe how peaceful it was in the shadow of the High Tatras, to see the sheep herded in to the pen for evening milking, their tiny bells sounding like a million wind chimes as they approached.

                                    I am truly blessed to be here.� And to have learned to do such crazy things on this site.� I just learned about the Slovak sheep dogs, and met some lovely pups, and some very well-trained adult Cuvacs.� Incredible animals.

                                    Off for Parchovany & Kosice tomorrow.� Thank you all for all your help over the years, and for your support!

                                    Regards,
                                    Chuck
                                    Stary Lubovna

                                    --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                                    From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:30 PM












                                    > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?



                                    Rather little. Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places. But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places. People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.



                                    Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers. They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk. Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.



                                    The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia. The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:



                                    <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>

                                    <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>



                                    It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day. The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.



                                    Martin































                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • LongJohn Wayne
                                    I am also watching over your school report suggestions.  We are going to have to get you an outfit w/ tights & a cape.  Not for Superman, but for Super
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I am also watching over your school report suggestions.  We are going to have to get you an outfit w/ tights & a cape.  Not for Superman, but for Super Slovak Man.

                                      LOL

                                      --- On Thu, 9/3/09, cerrunos1@... <cerrunos1@...> wrote:

                                      From: cerrunos1@... <cerrunos1@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 6:28 PM

                                      Chuck!
                                      I am thrilled to hear that you are having a great time in SK.  I wish I were there...
                                      Ben
                                      Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...>

                                      Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 15:03:55
                                      To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk


                                      Martin:

                                      What a coincidence.  Today, for the first time in my life, I had my first sip of raw, unpasteurized sheep's milk fresh from the pasture just outside of Stary Lubovna.  I don't suppose that may be slightly OT, but I think it's neat.  Also had some fresh sheep's cheese today that was made earlier in the day, also unpasteurized.

                                      I cannot describe how peaceful it was in the shadow of the High Tatras, to see the sheep herded in to the pen for evening milking, their tiny bells sounding like a million wind chimes as they approached.

                                      I am truly blessed to be here.  And to have learned to do such crazy things on this site.  I just learned about the Slovak sheep dogs, and met some lovely pups, and some very well-trained adult Cuvacs.  Incredible animals.

                                      Off for Parchovany & Kosice tomorrow.  Thank you all for all your help over the years, and for your support!

                                      Regards,
                                      Chuck
                                      Stary Lubovna

                                      --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:

                                      From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                      Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:30 PM






                                       




                                         
                                                        > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?



                                      Rather little.  Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places.  But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places.  People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.



                                      Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers.  They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk.  Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.



                                      The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia.  The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:



                                      <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>

                                      <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>



                                      It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day.  The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.



                                      Martin






                                           

                                         
                                         
                                         
                                           
                                         
                                         








                                         


                                         
                                         


                                           

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ben Sorensen
                                      Wow... Stara Lubovna! I love that place. Isn t it amazing how the sheep move together as if they were of one mind, like a flock of birds?  You are not far
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 3, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Wow... Stara Lubovna! I love that place. Isn't it amazing how the sheep move together as if they were of one mind, like a flock of birds?  You are not far from Pribylina- a great place to get a taste of the old Liptov villages! However, you will be going in the OPPOSITE direction tomorrow... Parchovany is a nice lil' place, and Kosice- especially the centre should the singing fountains be going- will blow you away! Go to the Zlaty Dukat for a beer for me...

                                        I love that milk- and I love zincica too. The sound of those bells takes me back to some wonderful moments with Dusan and Niki. They say that in Sumiac, the bells are tuned to the sound of thier singing. Whoever is your tour-guide should know about the singing in Sumiac. The first time anyone hears it, it leaves an impression. (In case your tour guide doesn't know what I am talking about, I am putting a great example in the files area for everyone. I claim fair use. :-P)

                                        Remember, small bells for lambs, medium bells for ewes, and rams get the largest bells.... :-)
                                        Nite, and have a good trip tomorrow!
                                        Ben




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@...>
                                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2009 6:39:53 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk

                                         
                                        I am also watching over your school report suggestions.  We are going to have to get you an outfit w/ tights & a cape.  Not for Superman, but for Super Slovak Man.

                                        LOL

                                        --- On Thu, 9/3/09, cerrunos1@yahoo. com <cerrunos1@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                        From: cerrunos1@yahoo. com <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                        To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 6:28 PM

                                        Chuck!
                                        I am thrilled to hear that you are having a great time in SK.  I wish I were there...
                                        Ben
                                        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@ yahoo.com>

                                        Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 15:03:55
                                        To: <Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com>
                                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk

                                        Martin:

                                        What a coincidence.  Today, for the first time in my life, I had my first sip of raw, unpasteurized sheep's milk fresh from the pasture just outside of Stary Lubovna.  I don't suppose that may be slightly OT, but I think it's neat.  Also had some fresh sheep's cheese today that was made earlier in the day, also unpasteurized.

                                        I cannot describe how peaceful it was in the shadow of the High Tatras, to see the sheep herded in to the pen for evening milking, their tiny bells sounding like a million wind chimes as they approached.

                                        I am truly blessed to be here.  And to have learned to do such crazy things on this site.  I just learned about the Slovak sheep dogs, and met some lovely pups, and some very well-trained adult Cuvacs.  Incredible animals.

                                        Off for Parchovany & Kosice tomorrow.  Thank you all for all your help over the years, and for your support!

                                        Regards,
                                        Chuck
                                        Stary Lubovna

                                        --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                        From: votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com>
                                        Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                        To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:30 PM

                                         

                                           
                                                          > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?

                                        Rather little.  Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places.  But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places.  People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.

                                        Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers.  They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk.  Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.

                                        The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia.  The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:

                                        <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>

                                        <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>

                                        It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day.  The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.

                                        Martin

                                             

                                           
                                           
                                           
                                             
                                           
                                           

                                           

                                           
                                           

                                             

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • LongJohn Wayne
                                        Thanks, Ben   Made it to Parchovy late AM yest.  Visited the church and then went to the archives just outside Presov.  There, it was too late to gain
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 5, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Ben
                                           
                                          Made it to Parchovy late AM yest.  Visited the church and then went to the archives just outside Presov.  There, it was too late to gain access, but one of the researchers came downstairs and referred us to the office in Kosice.  None of this was bad.  Driving in SK w- the dramatic scenery is a treat no matter where one goes, w- or w=out detours.
                                           
                                          Thanks for your memories of the shepherds.  Now I know why the bells all sounded different.  We didnt have a guide, only a kind local neighbor who knew of this place.  It was picturesque.  Sorry about my typing, the keys are different here.
                                           
                                          But none the less, I fear that this is a lost art that is going away. 
                                           
                                          I had some business to attend to in Kosice so I couldn§t visit the Centrum of the old city, but I did see the Dom, the Opera House on a Fri night and the singing fountains.  It was also a full moon and one of the most romantic spots I§ve ever been.
                                           
                                          Thanks again, Ben.  Unfortunatelz, I am w- some others so it is difficult to deviate from the path w- zour suggestions.  And I am back in Hlucin w- my host now.  If onlz yzou could communicate telepathicallz....
                                           
                                          Off for more sightseeing....
                                           
                                          Chuck
                                          --- On Fri, 9/4/09, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:


                                          From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Friday, September 4, 2009, 12:51 AM


                                           



                                          Wow... Stara Lubovna! I love that place. Isn't it amazing how the sheep move together as if they were of one mind, like a flock of birds?  You are not far from Pribylina- a great place to get a taste of the old Liptov villages! However, you will be going in the OPPOSITE direction tomorrow... Parchovany is a nice lil' place, and Kosice- especially the centre should the singing fountains be going- will blow you away! Go to the Zlaty Dukat for a beer for me...

                                          I love that milk- and I love zincica too. The sound of those bells takes me back to some wonderful moments with Dusan and Niki. They say that in Sumiac, the bells are tuned to the sound of thier singing. Whoever is your tour-guide should know about the singing in Sumiac. The first time anyone hears it, it leaves an impression. (In case your tour guide doesn't know what I am talking about, I am putting a great example in the files area for everyone. I claim fair use. :-P)

                                          Remember, small bells for lambs, medium bells for ewes, and rams get the largest bells.... :-)
                                          Nite, and have a good trip tomorrow!
                                          Ben

                                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                                          From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@ yahoo.com>
                                          To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2009 6:39:53 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk

                                           
                                          I am also watching over your school report suggestions.  We are going to have to get you an outfit w/ tights & a cape.  Not for Superman, but for Super Slovak Man.

                                          LOL

                                          --- On Thu, 9/3/09, cerrunos1@yahoo. com <cerrunos1@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                          From: cerrunos1@yahoo. com <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                                          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                          To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 6:28 PM

                                          Chuck!
                                          I am thrilled to hear that you are having a great time in SK.  I wish I were there...
                                          Ben
                                          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: LongJohn Wayne <daxthewarrior@ yahoo.com>

                                          Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 15:03:55
                                          To: <Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com>
                                          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk

                                          Martin:

                                          What a coincidence.  Today, for the first time in my life, I had my first sip of raw, unpasteurized sheep's milk fresh from the pasture just outside of Stary Lubovna.  I don't suppose that may be slightly OT, but I think it's neat.  Also had some fresh sheep's cheese today that was made earlier in the day, also unpasteurized.

                                          I cannot describe how peaceful it was in the shadow of the High Tatras, to see the sheep herded in to the pen for evening milking, their tiny bells sounding like a million wind chimes as they approached.

                                          I am truly blessed to be here.  And to have learned to do such crazy things on this site.  I just learned about the Slovak sheep dogs, and met some lovely pups, and some very well-trained adult Cuvacs.  Incredible animals.

                                          Off for Parchovany & Kosice tomorrow.  Thank you all for all your help over the years, and for your support!

                                          Regards,
                                          Chuck
                                          Stary Lubovna

                                          --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                          From: votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com>
                                          Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                          To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 1:30 PM

                                           

                                             
                                                            > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?

                                          Rather little.  Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places.  But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places.  People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.

                                          Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers.  They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk.  Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.

                                          The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia.  The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:

                                          <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>

                                          <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>

                                          It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day.  The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.

                                          Martin

                                               

                                             
                                             
                                             
                                               
                                             
                                             

                                             

                                             
                                             

                                               

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • George Sirko
                                          Dangers of drinking Raw Milk.   http://www.in.gov/isdh/24190.htm ... From: votrubam Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk To:
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 6, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dangers of drinking Raw Milk.
                                             
                                            http://www.in.gov/isdh/24190.htm

                                            --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@...> wrote:


                                            From: votrubam <votrubam@...>
                                            Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 10:30 AM


                                             



                                            > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?

                                            Rather little. Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places. But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places. People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.

                                            Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers. They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk. Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.

                                            The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia. The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:

                                            <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>
                                            <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>

                                            It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day. The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.

                                            Martin
















                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • LongJohn Wayne
                                            Too late, George, I m doomed! ... From: George Sirko Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday,
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 10, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Too late, George, I'm doomed!

                                              --- On Sun, 9/6/09, George Sirko <gsirko@...> wrote:


                                              From: George Sirko <gsirko@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:43 PM


                                               



                                              Dangers of drinking Raw Milk.
                                               
                                              http://www.in. gov/isdh/ 24190.htm

                                              --- On Thu, 9/3/09, votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                              From: votrubam <votrubam@yahoo. com>
                                              Subject: [Slovak-World] Raw milk
                                              To: Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com
                                              Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 10:30 AM

                                               

                                              > Is there an enthusiasm in Slovakia for 'raw' milk?

                                              Rather little. Basically, it's not available except directly from a farmer or a farm co-op's outlet, of which there are few, mostly just in small places. But in the past few months, co-op farms started selling fresh unpasteurized milk through vending machines in a couple of places. People come with vessels, push a button and chilled fresh unpasteurized milk -- milked just hours earlier -- pours out.

                                              Slovak and other Central European milk producers are saying they've been hit hard by competition from Denmark, France, and some other well-established producers. They complain that if they want to sell to a chain now, they have to go below their own cost of milk. Cattle's being sold on a massive scale, some predict that this is the beginning of the end of milk production in Slovakia.

                                              The novelty vending machines, already fairly common in Switzerland, for instance, are apparently proving successful for the few who set them up in Slovakia. The first one was set up in the small village of Sunava (between Poprad and Liptovsky Mikulas) in the summer:

                                              <http://www.polnoinf o.sk/img/ 34/1016.jpg>
                                              <http://tinyurl. com/me5gmc>

                                              It apparently sells about 14 gallons a day. The second one, in the town of Banovce nad Bebravou, apparently sells 200-260 gallons a day.

                                              Martin

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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