Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question

Expand Messages
  • Julie Michutka
    ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 3 4:45 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
      >
      >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
      >
      > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
      > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

      Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
      time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
      division of the records like this.
      >
      >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
      >
      > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

      'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
      peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
      the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
      obviously, have not.)

      > But perhaps there's a Russian
      > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
      > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
      > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

      OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
      a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
      a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
      for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
      being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
      potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
      many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

      Ed wrote:
      Were any beets grown
      in the area?

      It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
      book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
      village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

      Ron wrote:
      nuances in one language do not always carry
      over in another language.

      I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
      expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
      distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
      our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
      something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
      teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
      "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
      baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
      for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
      to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
      used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

      I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
      in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
      Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
      what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
      modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

      Julie Michutka
      jmm@...
    • Ben Sorensen
      Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 3 5:24 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi all,
         
        I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
        Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
         
        There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
         
        Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
         Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
        Ben



        --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

        From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







        On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
        >
        >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
        >
        > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
        > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

        Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
        time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
        division of the records like this.
        >
        >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
        >
        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

        'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
        peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
        the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
        obviously, have not.)

        > But perhaps there's a Russian
        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

        OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
        a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
        a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
        for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
        being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
        potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
        many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

        Ed wrote:
        Were any beets grown
        in the area?

        It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
        book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
        village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

        Ron wrote:
        nuances in one language do not always carry
        over in another language.

        I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
        expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
        distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
        our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
        something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
        teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
        "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
        baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
        for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
        to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
        used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

        I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
        in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
        Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
        what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
        modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@pathbridge. net


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ben Sorensen
        The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 3 5:38 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
          He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
          Ben

          --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

          From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






          While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
          where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
          convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
          least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
          reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
          "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

          Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
          dictionary offers
          convenient = vhodný
          possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

          essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
          have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
          'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
          translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
          over in another language.

          Ron
          PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
          ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

          --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
          confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
          proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Ben
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
          > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
          > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
          > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
          > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
          > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
          > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
          > called _cvikla_).
          >
          > Martin
          >


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fbican@att.net
          I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 3 7:10 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

            Ben--

            I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

            Laskavy pozdravy,

            Skeeter


            -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

            Hi all,

            I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
            Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

            There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

            Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
            Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
            Ben

            --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

            From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

            On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
            >
            >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
            >
            > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
            > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

            Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
            time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
            division of the records like this.
            >
            >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
            >
            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

            'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
            peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
            the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
            obviously, have not.)

            > But perhaps there's a Russian
            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

            OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
            a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
            a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
            for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
            being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
            potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
            many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

            Ed wrote:
            Were any beets grown
            in the area?

            It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
            book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
            village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

            Ron wrote:
            nuances in one language do not always carry
            over in another language.

            I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
            expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
            distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
            our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
            something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
            teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
            "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
            baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
            for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
            to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
            used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

            I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
            in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
            Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
            what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
            modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@pathbridge. net

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Polko
            Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 3 7:36 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello all,

              Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
              where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
              I have Pivo.

              Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
              always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

              Best regards,

              John e. Polko.

              ----Original Message-----

              From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
              Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
              Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


              Hi all,

              I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
              wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
              Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
              of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
              Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
              and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
              Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
              had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

              There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
              sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
              doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
              "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
              someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
              English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
              refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

              Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
              than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
              foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
              VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
              love to know what got me.
              Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
              walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
              two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
              alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
              live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
              shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
              small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
              first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
              Ben

              --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

              From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

              On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
              >
              >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
              >
              > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
              > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

              Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
              time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
              division of the records like this.
              >
              >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
              >
              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

              'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
              peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
              the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
              obviously, have not.)

              > But perhaps there's a Russian
              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

              OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
              a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
              a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
              for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
              being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
              potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
              many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

              Ed wrote:
              Were any beets grown
              in the area?

              It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
              book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
              village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

              Ron wrote:
              nuances in one language do not always carry
              over in another language.

              I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
              expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
              distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
              our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
              something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
              teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
              "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
              baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
              for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
              to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
              used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

              I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
              in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
              Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
              what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
              modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@pathbridge. net

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Martin Votruba
              ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3 8:43 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                > and this book is a translation.

                If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                as an ingredient to improve the product.


                > growing potatoes makes sense because

                I agree completely, Julie.


                Martin
              • Martin Votruba
                ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3 12:31 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                  Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                  shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                  starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                  There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                  meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                  years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                  same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                  arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                  applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                  seen before.

                  The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                  _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                  Martin
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.