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Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question

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  • fbican@att.net
    Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak, Inconvenient = nevhodny Impossible = nemozny I don t know if this is of any help. Kindest regards,
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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      Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak,

      Inconvenient = nevhodny

      Impossible = nemozny

      I don't know if this is of any help.

      Kindest regards,

      Skeeter

      -------------- Original message from "Ron Matviyak" <rmat@...>: --------------

      While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
      where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
      convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
      least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
      reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
      "inconvenient" and "impossible".

      Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
      dictionary offers
      convenient = vhodný
      possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

      essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
      have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
      'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
      translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
      over in another language.

      Ron
      PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
      ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
      confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
      proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Ben
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
      > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
      > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
      > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
      > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
      > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
      > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
      > called _cvikla_).
      >
      > Martin
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Julie Michutka
      ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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        On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
        >
        >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
        >
        > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
        > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

        Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
        time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
        division of the records like this.
        >
        >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
        >
        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

        'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
        peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
        the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
        obviously, have not.)

        > But perhaps there's a Russian
        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

        OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
        a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
        a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
        for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
        being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
        potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
        many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

        Ed wrote:
        Were any beets grown
        in the area?

        It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
        book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
        village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

        Ron wrote:
        nuances in one language do not always carry
        over in another language.

        I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
        expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
        distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
        our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
        something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
        teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
        "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
        baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
        for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
        to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
        used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

        I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
        in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
        Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
        what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
        modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@...
      • Ben Sorensen
        Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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          Hi all,
           
          I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
          Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
           
          There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
           
          Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
           Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
          Ben



          --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

          From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







          On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
          >
          >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
          >
          > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
          > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

          Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
          time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
          division of the records like this.
          >
          >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
          >
          > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

          'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
          peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
          the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
          obviously, have not.)

          > But perhaps there's a Russian
          > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
          > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
          > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

          OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
          a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
          a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
          for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
          being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
          potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
          many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

          Ed wrote:
          Were any beets grown
          in the area?

          It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
          book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
          village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

          Ron wrote:
          nuances in one language do not always carry
          over in another language.

          I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
          expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
          distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
          our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
          something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
          teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
          "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
          baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
          for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
          to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
          used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

          I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
          in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
          Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
          what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
          modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

          Julie Michutka
          jmm@pathbridge. net


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ben Sorensen
          The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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            The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
            He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
            Ben

            --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

            From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






            While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
            where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
            convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
            least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
            reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
            "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

            Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
            dictionary offers
            convenient = vhodný
            possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

            essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
            have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
            'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
            translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
            over in another language.

            Ron
            PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
            ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

            --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
            confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
            proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Ben
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
            > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
            > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
            > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
            > called _cvikla_).
            >
            > Martin
            >


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • fbican@att.net
            I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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              "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

              Ben--

              I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

              Laskavy pozdravy,

              Skeeter


              -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

              Hi all,

              I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
              Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

              There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

              Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
              Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
              Ben

              --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

              From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

              On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
              >
              >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
              >
              > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
              > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

              Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
              time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
              division of the records like this.
              >
              >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
              >
              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

              'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
              peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
              the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
              obviously, have not.)

              > But perhaps there's a Russian
              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

              OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
              a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
              a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
              for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
              being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
              potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
              many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

              Ed wrote:
              Were any beets grown
              in the area?

              It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
              book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
              village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

              Ron wrote:
              nuances in one language do not always carry
              over in another language.

              I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
              expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
              distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
              our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
              something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
              teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
              "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
              baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
              for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
              to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
              used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

              I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
              in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
              Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
              what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
              modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@pathbridge. net

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Polko
              Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello all,

                Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
                where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
                I have Pivo.

                Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
                always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

                Best regards,

                John e. Polko.

                ----Original Message-----

                From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
                Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


                Hi all,

                I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
                wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
                of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
                Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
                and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
                Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
                had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
                sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
                doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
                "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
                someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
                English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
                refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
                than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
                foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
                VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
                love to know what got me.
                Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
                walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
                two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
                alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
                live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
                shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
                small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
                first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                Ben

                --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                >
                >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                >
                > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                division of the records like this.
                >
                >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                >
                > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                obviously, have not.)

                > But perhaps there's a Russian
                > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                Ed wrote:
                Were any beets grown
                in the area?

                It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                Ron wrote:
                nuances in one language do not always carry
                over in another language.

                I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@pathbridge. net

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Votruba
                ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  > and this book is a translation.

                  If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                  I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                  It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                  now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                  > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                  "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                  the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                  in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                  reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                  To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                  that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                  been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                  have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                  that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                  commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                  as an ingredient to improve the product.


                  > growing potatoes makes sense because

                  I agree completely, Julie.


                  Martin
                • Martin Votruba
                  ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                    Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                    shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                    starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                    There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                    meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                    years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                    same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                    arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                    applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                    seen before.

                    The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                    _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                    Martin
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