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Re: marriage records question

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  • Ron Matviyak
    While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase that is not convenient , with the
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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      While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
      where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
      convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
      least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
      reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
      "inconvenient" and "impossible".

      Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
      dictionary offers
      convenient = vhodný
      possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

      essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
      have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
      'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
      translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
      over in another language.

      Ron
      PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
      ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine


      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
      confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
      proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Ben
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
      > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
      > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
      > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
      > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
      > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
      > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
      > called _cvikla_).
      >
      > Martin
      >
    • fbican@att.net
      Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak, Inconvenient = nevhodny Impossible = nemozny I don t know if this is of any help. Kindest regards,
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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        Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak,

        Inconvenient = nevhodny

        Impossible = nemozny

        I don't know if this is of any help.

        Kindest regards,

        Skeeter

        -------------- Original message from "Ron Matviyak" <rmat@...>: --------------

        While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
        where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
        convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
        least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
        reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
        "inconvenient" and "impossible".

        Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
        dictionary offers
        convenient = vhodný
        possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

        essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
        have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
        'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
        translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
        over in another language.

        Ron
        PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
        ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
        confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
        proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Ben
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
        > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
        > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
        > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
        > called _cvikla_).
        >
        > Martin
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Julie Michutka
        ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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          On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
          >
          >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
          >
          > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
          > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

          Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
          time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
          division of the records like this.
          >
          >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
          >
          > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

          'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
          peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
          the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
          obviously, have not.)

          > But perhaps there's a Russian
          > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
          > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
          > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

          OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
          a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
          a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
          for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
          being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
          potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
          many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

          Ed wrote:
          Were any beets grown
          in the area?

          It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
          book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
          village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

          Ron wrote:
          nuances in one language do not always carry
          over in another language.

          I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
          expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
          distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
          our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
          something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
          teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
          "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
          baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
          for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
          to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
          used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

          I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
          in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
          Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
          what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
          modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

          Julie Michutka
          jmm@...
        • Ben Sorensen
          Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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            Hi all,
             
            I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
            Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
             
            There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
             
            Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
             Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
            Ben



            --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

            From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







            On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
            >
            >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
            >
            > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
            > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

            Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
            time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
            division of the records like this.
            >
            >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
            >
            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

            'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
            peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
            the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
            obviously, have not.)

            > But perhaps there's a Russian
            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

            OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
            a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
            a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
            for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
            being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
            potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
            many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

            Ed wrote:
            Were any beets grown
            in the area?

            It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
            book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
            village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

            Ron wrote:
            nuances in one language do not always carry
            over in another language.

            I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
            expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
            distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
            our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
            something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
            teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
            "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
            baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
            for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
            to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
            used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

            I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
            in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
            Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
            what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
            modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@pathbridge. net


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ben Sorensen
            The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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              The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
              He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
              Ben

              --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

              From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






              While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
              where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
              convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
              least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
              reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
              "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

              Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
              dictionary offers
              convenient = vhodný
              possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

              essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
              have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
              'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
              translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
              over in another language.

              Ron
              PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
              ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

              --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
              confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
              proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Ben
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
              > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
              > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
              > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
              > called _cvikla_).
              >
              > Martin
              >


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • fbican@att.net
              I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

                Ben--

                I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

                Laskavy pozdravy,

                Skeeter


                -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                Hi all,

                I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                Ben

                --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                >
                >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                >
                > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                division of the records like this.
                >
                >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                >
                > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                obviously, have not.)

                > But perhaps there's a Russian
                > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                Ed wrote:
                Were any beets grown
                in the area?

                It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                Ron wrote:
                nuances in one language do not always carry
                over in another language.

                I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@pathbridge. net

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Polko
                Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello all,

                  Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
                  where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
                  I have Pivo.

                  Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
                  always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

                  Best regards,

                  John e. Polko.

                  ----Original Message-----

                  From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
                  Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
                  Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


                  Hi all,

                  I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
                  wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                  Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
                  of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
                  Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
                  and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
                  Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
                  had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                  There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
                  sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
                  doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
                  "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
                  someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
                  English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
                  refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                  Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
                  than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
                  foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
                  VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
                  love to know what got me.
                  Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
                  walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
                  two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
                  alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
                  live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
                  shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
                  small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
                  first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                  Ben

                  --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                  On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                  >
                  >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                  >
                  > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                  > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                  Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                  time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                  division of the records like this.
                  >
                  >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                  >
                  > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                  'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                  peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                  the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                  obviously, have not.)

                  > But perhaps there's a Russian
                  > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                  > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                  > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                  OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                  a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                  a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                  for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                  being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                  potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                  many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                  Ed wrote:
                  Were any beets grown
                  in the area?

                  It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                  book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                  village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                  Ron wrote:
                  nuances in one language do not always carry
                  over in another language.

                  I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                  expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                  distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                  our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                  something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                  teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                  "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                  baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                  for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                  to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                  used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                  I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                  in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                  Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                  what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                  modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@pathbridge. net

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Martin Votruba
                  ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > and this book is a translation.

                    If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                    I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                    It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                    now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                    > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                    "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                    the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                    in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                    reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                    To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                    that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                    been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                    have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                    that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                    commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                    as an ingredient to improve the product.


                    > growing potatoes makes sense because

                    I agree completely, Julie.


                    Martin
                  • Martin Votruba
                    ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                      > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                      Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                      shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                      starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                      There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                      meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                      years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                      same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                      arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                      applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                      seen before.

                      The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                      _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                      Martin
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