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Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question

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  • fbican@att.net
    Not to disrespect Martin, as I m sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I ve found
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
      Not to disrespect Martin, as I'm sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I've found

      http://www.ectaco.co.uk/Electronic-Dictionaries/

      I've been using the Lingo Global 29 pocket translator,

      http://www.amazon.com/Lingo-TR-2900-Global-Language-Translator/dp/B000AI2TU6

      and it usually gets me by. I did not like Babylon and had a hard time uninstalling it from my computer. The Lingo is no replacement for a multi-lingual grandmothers, but it's the best I can do. My grandmothers passed away many years ago.

      Kindest regards,

      Skeeter



      -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

      Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

      I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

      I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

      Thanks,
      Ben

      Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
      forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
      Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
      confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
      of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
      plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
      regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
      called _cvikla_).

      Martin




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Matviyak
      While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase that is not convenient , with the
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
        While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
        where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
        convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
        least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
        reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
        "inconvenient" and "impossible".

        Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
        dictionary offers
        convenient = vhodný
        possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

        essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
        have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
        'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
        translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
        over in another language.

        Ron
        PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
        ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine


        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
        confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
        proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Ben
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
        > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
        > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
        > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
        > called _cvikla_).
        >
        > Martin
        >
      • fbican@att.net
        Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak, Inconvenient = nevhodny Impossible = nemozny I don t know if this is of any help. Kindest regards,
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
          Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak,

          Inconvenient = nevhodny

          Impossible = nemozny

          I don't know if this is of any help.

          Kindest regards,

          Skeeter

          -------------- Original message from "Ron Matviyak" <rmat@...>: --------------

          While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
          where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
          convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
          least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
          reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
          "inconvenient" and "impossible".

          Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
          dictionary offers
          convenient = vhodný
          possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

          essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
          have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
          'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
          translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
          over in another language.

          Ron
          PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
          ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
          confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
          proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Ben
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
          > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
          > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
          > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
          > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
          > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
          > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
          > called _cvikla_).
          >
          > Martin
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Julie Michutka
          ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
            On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
            >
            >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
            >
            > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
            > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

            Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
            time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
            division of the records like this.
            >
            >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
            >
            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

            'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
            peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
            the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
            obviously, have not.)

            > But perhaps there's a Russian
            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

            OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
            a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
            a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
            for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
            being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
            potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
            many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

            Ed wrote:
            Were any beets grown
            in the area?

            It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
            book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
            village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

            Ron wrote:
            nuances in one language do not always carry
            over in another language.

            I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
            expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
            distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
            our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
            something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
            teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
            "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
            baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
            for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
            to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
            used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

            I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
            in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
            Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
            what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
            modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...
          • Ben Sorensen
            Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
              Hi all,
               
              I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
              Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
               
              There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
               
              Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
               Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
              Ben



              --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

              From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







              On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
              >
              >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
              >
              > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
              > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

              Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
              time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
              division of the records like this.
              >
              >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
              >
              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

              'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
              peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
              the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
              obviously, have not.)

              > But perhaps there's a Russian
              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

              OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
              a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
              a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
              for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
              being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
              potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
              many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

              Ed wrote:
              Were any beets grown
              in the area?

              It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
              book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
              village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

              Ron wrote:
              nuances in one language do not always carry
              over in another language.

              I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
              expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
              distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
              our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
              something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
              teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
              "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
              baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
              for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
              to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
              used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

              I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
              in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
              Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
              what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
              modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@pathbridge. net


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ben Sorensen
              The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
                He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
                Ben

                --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

                From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






                While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
                reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

                Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                dictionary offers
                convenient = vhodný
                possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                over in another language.

                Ron
                PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

                --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Ben
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                > called _cvikla_).
                >
                > Martin
                >


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • fbican@att.net
                I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                  "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

                  Ben--

                  I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

                  Laskavy pozdravy,

                  Skeeter


                  -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                  Hi all,

                  I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                  Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                  There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                  Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                  Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                  Ben

                  --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                  On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                  >
                  >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                  >
                  > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                  > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                  Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                  time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                  division of the records like this.
                  >
                  >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                  >
                  > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                  'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                  peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                  the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                  obviously, have not.)

                  > But perhaps there's a Russian
                  > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                  > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                  > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                  OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                  a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                  a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                  for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                  being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                  potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                  many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                  Ed wrote:
                  Were any beets grown
                  in the area?

                  It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                  book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                  village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                  Ron wrote:
                  nuances in one language do not always carry
                  over in another language.

                  I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                  expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                  distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                  our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                  something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                  teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                  "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                  baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                  for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                  to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                  used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                  I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                  in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                  Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                  what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                  modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@pathbridge. net

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Polko
                  Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                    Hello all,

                    Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
                    where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
                    I have Pivo.

                    Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
                    always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

                    Best regards,

                    John e. Polko.

                    ----Original Message-----

                    From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
                    Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


                    Hi all,

                    I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
                    wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                    Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
                    of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
                    Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
                    and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
                    Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
                    had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                    There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
                    sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
                    doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
                    "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
                    someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
                    English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
                    refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                    Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
                    than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
                    foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
                    VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
                    love to know what got me.
                    Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
                    walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
                    two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
                    alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
                    live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
                    shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
                    small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
                    first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                    Ben

                    --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                    From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                    On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                    >
                    >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                    >
                    > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                    > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                    Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                    time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                    division of the records like this.
                    >
                    >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                    >
                    > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                    'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                    peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                    the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                    obviously, have not.)

                    > But perhaps there's a Russian
                    > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                    > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                    > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                    OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                    a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                    a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                    for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                    being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                    potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                    many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                    Ed wrote:
                    Were any beets grown
                    in the area?

                    It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                    book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                    village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                    Ron wrote:
                    nuances in one language do not always carry
                    over in another language.

                    I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                    expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                    distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                    our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                    something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                    teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                    "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                    baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                    for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                    to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                    used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                    I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                    in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                    Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                    what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                    modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                    Julie Michutka
                    jmm@pathbridge. net

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Martin Votruba
                    ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                      > and this book is a translation.

                      If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                      I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                      It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                      now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                      > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                      "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                      the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                      in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                      reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                      To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                      that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                      been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                      have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                      that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                      commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                      as an ingredient to improve the product.


                      > growing potatoes makes sense because

                      I agree completely, Julie.


                      Martin
                    • Martin Votruba
                      ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                        > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                        Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                        shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                        starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                        There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                        meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                        years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                        same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                        arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                        applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                        seen before.

                        The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                        _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                        Martin
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