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Re: marriage records question

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  • Martin Votruba
    ... As Ben has already said, the phrase simply means marriages registered [in this record]. ... Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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      > uzavrete manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva.

      As Ben has already said, the phrase simply means "marriages registered
      [in this record]."


      > mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?

      Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
      customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.


      > groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"

      Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
      forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
      Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
      confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
      of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
      plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
      regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
      called _cvikla_).


      Martin
    • Ben Sorensen
      Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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        Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

        I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

        I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

        Thanks,
        Ben




        Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
        forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
        Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
        confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
        of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
        plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
        regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
        called _cvikla_).

        Martin
      • fbican@att.net
        Not to disrespect Martin, as I m sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I ve found
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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          Not to disrespect Martin, as I'm sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I've found

          http://www.ectaco.co.uk/Electronic-Dictionaries/

          I've been using the Lingo Global 29 pocket translator,

          http://www.amazon.com/Lingo-TR-2900-Global-Language-Translator/dp/B000AI2TU6

          and it usually gets me by. I did not like Babylon and had a hard time uninstalling it from my computer. The Lingo is no replacement for a multi-lingual grandmothers, but it's the best I can do. My grandmothers passed away many years ago.

          Kindest regards,

          Skeeter



          -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

          Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

          I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

          I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

          Thanks,
          Ben

          Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
          forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
          Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
          confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
          of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
          plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
          regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
          called _cvikla_).

          Martin




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Matviyak
          While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase that is not convenient , with the
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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            While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
            where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
            convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
            least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
            reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
            "inconvenient" and "impossible".

            Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
            dictionary offers
            convenient = vhodný
            possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

            essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
            have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
            'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
            translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
            over in another language.

            Ron
            PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
            ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine


            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
            confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
            proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Ben
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
            > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
            > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
            > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
            > called _cvikla_).
            >
            > Martin
            >
          • fbican@att.net
            Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak, Inconvenient = nevhodny Impossible = nemozny I don t know if this is of any help. Kindest regards,
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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              Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak,

              Inconvenient = nevhodny

              Impossible = nemozny

              I don't know if this is of any help.

              Kindest regards,

              Skeeter

              -------------- Original message from "Ron Matviyak" <rmat@...>: --------------

              While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
              where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
              convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
              least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
              reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
              "inconvenient" and "impossible".

              Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
              dictionary offers
              convenient = vhodný
              possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

              essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
              have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
              'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
              translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
              over in another language.

              Ron
              PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
              ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

              --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
              confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
              proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Ben
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
              > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
              > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
              > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
              > called _cvikla_).
              >
              > Martin
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Julie Michutka
              ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                >
                >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                >
                > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                division of the records like this.
                >
                >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                >
                > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                obviously, have not.)

                > But perhaps there's a Russian
                > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
                > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                Ed wrote:
                Were any beets grown
                in the area?

                It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                Ron wrote:
                nuances in one language do not always carry
                over in another language.

                I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@...
              • Ben Sorensen
                Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                  Hi all,
                   
                  I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                  Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
                   
                  There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
                   
                  Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                   Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                  Ben



                  --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







                  On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                  >
                  >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                  >
                  > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                  > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                  Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                  time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                  division of the records like this.
                  >
                  >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                  >
                  > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                  'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                  peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                  the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                  obviously, have not.)

                  > But perhaps there's a Russian
                  > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                  > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                  > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                  OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                  a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                  a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                  for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                  being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                  potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                  many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                  Ed wrote:
                  Were any beets grown
                  in the area?

                  It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                  book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                  village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                  Ron wrote:
                  nuances in one language do not always carry
                  over in another language.

                  I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                  expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                  distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                  our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                  something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                  teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                  "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                  baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                  for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                  to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                  used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                  I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                  in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                  Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                  what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                  modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@pathbridge. net


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ben Sorensen
                  The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                    The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
                    He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
                    Ben

                    --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

                    From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
                    Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






                    While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                    where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                    convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                    least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
                    reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                    "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

                    Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                    dictionary offers
                    convenient = vhodný
                    possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                    essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                    have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                    'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                    translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                    over in another language.

                    Ron
                    PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                    ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

                    --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                    confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                    proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Ben
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                    > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                    > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                    > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                    > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                    > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                    > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                    > called _cvikla_).
                    >
                    > Martin
                    >


















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • fbican@att.net
                    I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                      "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

                      Ben--

                      I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

                      Laskavy pozdravy,

                      Skeeter


                      -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                      Hi all,

                      I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                      Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                      There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                      Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                      Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                      Ben

                      --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                      From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                      On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                      >
                      >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                      >
                      > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                      > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                      Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                      time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                      division of the records like this.
                      >
                      >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                      >
                      > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                      'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                      peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                      the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                      obviously, have not.)

                      > But perhaps there's a Russian
                      > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                      > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                      > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                      OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                      a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                      a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                      for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                      being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                      potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                      many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                      Ed wrote:
                      Were any beets grown
                      in the area?

                      It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                      book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                      village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                      Ron wrote:
                      nuances in one language do not always carry
                      over in another language.

                      I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                      expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                      distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                      our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                      something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                      teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                      "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                      baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                      for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                      to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                      used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                      I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                      in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                      Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                      what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                      modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                      Julie Michutka
                      jmm@pathbridge. net

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John Polko
                      Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello all,

                        Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
                        where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
                        I have Pivo.

                        Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
                        always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

                        Best regards,

                        John e. Polko.

                        ----Original Message-----

                        From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
                        Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
                        Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


                        Hi all,

                        I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
                        wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                        Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
                        of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
                        Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
                        and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
                        Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
                        had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                        There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
                        sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
                        doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
                        "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
                        someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
                        English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
                        refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                        Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
                        than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
                        foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
                        VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
                        love to know what got me.
                        Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
                        walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
                        two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
                        alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
                        live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
                        shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
                        small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
                        first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                        Ben

                        --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                        From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                        On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                        >
                        >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                        >
                        > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                        > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                        Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                        time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                        division of the records like this.
                        >
                        >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                        >
                        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                        'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                        peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                        the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                        obviously, have not.)

                        > But perhaps there's a Russian
                        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                        OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                        a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                        a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                        for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                        being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                        potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                        many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                        Ed wrote:
                        Were any beets grown
                        in the area?

                        It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                        book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                        village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                        Ron wrote:
                        nuances in one language do not always carry
                        over in another language.

                        I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                        expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                        distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                        our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                        something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                        teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                        "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                        baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                        for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                        to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                        used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                        I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                        in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                        Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                        what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                        modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                        Julie Michutka
                        jmm@pathbridge. net

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Martin Votruba
                        ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                          > and this book is a translation.

                          If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                          I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                          It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                          now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                          > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                          "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                          the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                          in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                          reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                          To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                          that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                          been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                          have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                          that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                          commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                          as an ingredient to improve the product.


                          > growing potatoes makes sense because

                          I agree completely, Julie.


                          Martin
                        • Martin Votruba
                          ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                            > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                            Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                            shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                            starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                            There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                            meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                            years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                            same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                            arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                            applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                            seen before.

                            The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                            _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                            Martin
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