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  • Ben Sorensen
    Hello all, Over the weekend, I saw an article (on a Slovak site) that stated America will do away with the traveler s visa for Slovakia by January (at the
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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      Hello all,
      Over the weekend, I saw an article (on a Slovak site) that stated America will do away with the traveler's visa for Slovakia by January (at the latest, they say.)
       
      While I was in Slovakia again this summer visiting family and friends, I couldn't help but wonder what the hold-up was... I saw the "middle-class" being able to afford things that we would have probably never thought affordable two and a half years ago, and also something that blew me away: People coming close to retirement were planning to do things FUN rather than take on odd jobs and crafts to be able to help out thier children and grandchildren! This mindset blew me away as it was always a bane to retire there, rather than a benefit. Gardening, helping build houses or add-ons to those houses, odd jobs, and craft-work were before the run of the mill post-retirement plans. (This is my observation, so it may or may not fit with "statistical findings.") Now, many are planning to run around the world, start new hobbies, etc...  I was sitting with my friend Milan in Spissky Stiavnik, and while talking about it, he too was amazed at what he saw. Newer
      cars, which were a norm in Bratislava or other more metropolitan areas were also becoming commonplace in the "vidiek" areas.  I joked that it is necessity- as the Skoda favorits are probably dying out. :-)
      All jokes aside, it is proof that the middle class in Slovakia, which wasn't in the depths of penury to begin with, is becoming much more affluent in spite of rising prices. (The prices, by the way, were rising and blowing me and my American income away:-P Milka too was a bit astounded, but we still went out and enjoyed.)
       
      When I compared the buying power in Slovakia and America, I realized that Slovaks could pick up so much stuff here in the way of suvenirs and clothing- for far less than what we pay there. So here is my big question: WHAT HAS BEEN THE HOLD UP? Why does an affluent country still have a travel visa placed on them? My friends all say that they would love to come and visit, but the truth is that working here at a summer job doesn't do them all that well- there are better places for them to go in the EU than here. The dollar is at about 20SK right now, and the Euro will do them better. What keeps that visa in place? Does anyone know if it will be gone in January, or is this again wishful thinking? (When George Bush met Vladimir Putin in BA in 2005, he commented on the visa. EVERYONE seemed to think that the visa would then be gone by 2006- even though Bush never said that.)
       
      I would love to hear your thoughts on this...
      Ben 




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ben Sorensen
      I just asked my wife to be sure, and she told me that we have a uzavrete manzelstvo... uzavreli sme manzelstvo 19,6,2004... So, a uzavrete manzelstvo is a
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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        I just asked my wife to be sure, and she told me that we have a "uzavrete manzelstvo... uzavreli sme manzelstvo 19,6,2004..."
        So, a uzavrete manzelstvo is a term for a "done deal (NOT an official translation...)" :-P It is an official wedding. It is the end of life as every single man knows it.
         
        She then reminded me that I am NOT allowed to forget our anniversary.... jaj, zivot pokracuje dalej...
        Ben

        --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

        From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
        Subject: [Slovak-World] marriage records question
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 8:17 AM






        Dobre rano, y'all!

        I recently returned from an awesome vacation/road trip, driving from
        Denver to San Francisco. We spent a day and a half in Salt Lake City,
        and I squeezed in about 3 hours at Mecca, I mean, at the Family
        History Library, where I attempted to batter down my biggest Slovak
        brick wall. I had no luck, unfortunately, but I saved myself a lot of
        time and aggravation and some money by not having to order films, wait
        for them to arrive, wait for my local little FHL to be open, etc.
        Whizzed through the records of 3 villages, trying to find my great-
        grandmother' s baptismal and/or marriage records. Jeez, I still don't
        know where she came from.....

        Anyway, I noticed that the film details for one village had some terms
        regarding marriage records that I'm not familiar with: uzavrete
        manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva. (I didn't examine the latter
        records, as they did not cover the time period I was searching, and
        only realized there were two different labels for marriage records
        later.) Looking at my Slovak dictionary, I'd guess that uzavrete
        manzelstva probably means "private marriage"? The basic meaning
        appears to be "enclosed", and by extension, "private"; while zmiesane
        manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
        maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
        Or maybe "inside the auspices of the Catholic church" and
        "outside..." ? But if I remember right, civil marriages were non-
        existent in the mid-1800s in Slovakia.... .

        Does anyone know for sure what these mean and why the marriage records
        would be divided like this? The years covered do overlap, the
        uzavrete manzelstva records cover 1798-1898,and the zmiesane
        manzelstva records 1832-1864.

        D'akujem za pomoc,

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@pathbridge. net

















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • fbican@att.net
        Julie-- while zmiesane manzelstva seems to mean mixed marriage . Wish I d looked at those, maybe it d be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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          Julie--

          "while zmiesane
          manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
          maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic? "

          That's most likely the case. Not to hijack your thread, but as an aside, back in the 1960's, my cousin married a Jewish man, whom my Polish-Catholic uncle referred to as "That Jew bastard". Well, that Jew served the US Army in the Korean war, and came back to set up his own company. He gave both myself and my brother jobs that enabled us to go to college with no student loans. I'm a Christian, but while I was in college I belonged to a Jewish fraternity.

          http://www.aepi.org/site/pp.asp?c=geJQIUOwErH&b=2116949

          I learned a great many things and met some great fellows while I was there.

          Even today, I think there's a great deal of intra-religious animosity, and I'm guessing that's what " zmiesane
          manzelstva" probably referred to.

          Kindest regards,

          Skeeter

          -------------- Original message from Julie Michutka <jmm@...>: --------------

          Dobre rano, y'all!

          I recently returned from an awesome vacation/road trip, driving from
          Denver to San Francisco. We spent a day and a half in Salt Lake City,
          and I squeezed in about 3 hours at Mecca, I mean, at the Family
          History Library, where I attempted to batter down my biggest Slovak
          brick wall. I had no luck, unfortunately, but I saved myself a lot of
          time and aggravation and some money by not having to order films, wait
          for them to arrive, wait for my local little FHL to be open, etc.
          Whizzed through the records of 3 villages, trying to find my great-
          grandmother's baptismal and/or marriage records. Jeez, I still don't
          know where she came from.....

          Anyway, I noticed that the film details for one village had some terms
          regarding marriage records that I'm not familiar with: uzavrete
          manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva. (I didn't examine the latter
          records, as they did not cover the time period I was searching, and
          only realized there were two different labels for marriage records
          later.) Looking at my Slovak dictionary, I'd guess that uzavrete
          manzelstva probably means "private marriage"? The basic meaning
          appears to be "enclosed", and by extension, "private"; while zmiesane
          manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
          maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
          Or maybe "inside the auspices of the Catholic church" and
          "outside..."? But if I remember right, civil marriages were non-
          existent in the mid-1800s in Slovakia.....

          Does anyone know for sure what these mean and why the marriage records
          would be divided like this? The years covered do overlap, the
          uzavrete manzelstva records cover 1798-1898,and the zmiesane
          manzelstva records 1832-1864.

          D'akujem za pomoc,

          Julie Michutka
          jmm@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Julie Michutka
          Thanks, guys. Wish I d looked at the mixed marriages, just out of curiosity, but it wasn t the time period I was searching, and I had really limited time at
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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            Thanks, guys. Wish I'd looked at the mixed marriages, just out of
            curiosity, but it wasn't the time period I was searching, and I had
            really limited time at the library. Next trip ;)


            On Sep 2, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:

            > I believe uzavrete manzelstva here just means contracted marriages
            > ("closed/concluded" like in closing a legal arrangement or business
            > deal). You're right, zmiesane malzenstva means mixed marriages.
            and Ben wrote:

            uzavrete manzelstvo is a term for a "done deal (NOT an official
            translation...)" :-P It is an official wedding.
          • fbican@att.net
            Ahoj, Julie, et.al.-- If you haven t done so already, here s a genealogy site that you might want to investigate. http://www.cyndislist.com/ It s worth a shot.
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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              Ahoj, Julie, et.al.--

              If you haven't done so already, here's a genealogy site that you might want to investigate.

              http://www.cyndislist.com/

              It's worth a shot.

              Kindest regards,

              Skeeter

              -------------- Original message from Julie Michutka <jmm@...>: --------------

              Thanks, guys. Wish I'd looked at the mixed marriages, just out of
              curiosity, but it wasn't the time period I was searching, and I had
              really limited time at the library. Next trip ;)

              On Sep 2, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:

              > I believe uzavrete manzelstva here just means contracted marriages
              > ("closed/concluded" like in closing a legal arrangement or business
              > deal). You're right, zmiesane malzenstva means mixed marriages.
              and Ben wrote:

              uzavrete manzelstvo is a term for a "done deal (NOT an official
              translation...)" :-P It is an official wedding.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Martin Votruba
              ... As Ben has already said, the phrase simply means marriages registered [in this record]. ... Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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                > uzavrete manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva.

                As Ben has already said, the phrase simply means "marriages registered
                [in this record]."


                > mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?

                Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.


                > groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"

                Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
                confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                called _cvikla_).


                Martin
              • Ben Sorensen
                Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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                  Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

                  I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

                  I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

                  Thanks,
                  Ben




                  Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                  forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                  Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                  confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                  of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                  plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                  regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                  called _cvikla_).

                  Martin
                • fbican@att.net
                  Not to disrespect Martin, as I m sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I ve found
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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                    Not to disrespect Martin, as I'm sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I've found

                    http://www.ectaco.co.uk/Electronic-Dictionaries/

                    I've been using the Lingo Global 29 pocket translator,

                    http://www.amazon.com/Lingo-TR-2900-Global-Language-Translator/dp/B000AI2TU6

                    and it usually gets me by. I did not like Babylon and had a hard time uninstalling it from my computer. The Lingo is no replacement for a multi-lingual grandmothers, but it's the best I can do. My grandmothers passed away many years ago.

                    Kindest regards,

                    Skeeter



                    -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                    Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

                    I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

                    I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

                    Thanks,
                    Ben

                    Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                    forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                    Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                    confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                    of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                    plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                    regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                    called _cvikla_).

                    Martin




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ron Matviyak
                    While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase that is not convenient , with the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                      While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                      where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                      convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                      least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
                      reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                      "inconvenient" and "impossible".

                      Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                      dictionary offers
                      convenient = vhodný
                      possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                      essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                      have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                      'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                      translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                      over in another language.

                      Ron
                      PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                      ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine


                      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                      confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                      proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Ben
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                      > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                      > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                      > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                      > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                      > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                      > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                      > called _cvikla_).
                      >
                      > Martin
                      >
                    • fbican@att.net
                      Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak, Inconvenient = nevhodny Impossible = nemozny I don t know if this is of any help. Kindest regards,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                        Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak,

                        Inconvenient = nevhodny

                        Impossible = nemozny

                        I don't know if this is of any help.

                        Kindest regards,

                        Skeeter

                        -------------- Original message from "Ron Matviyak" <rmat@...>: --------------

                        While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                        where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                        convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                        least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
                        reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                        "inconvenient" and "impossible".

                        Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                        dictionary offers
                        convenient = vhodný
                        possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                        essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                        have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                        'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                        translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                        over in another language.

                        Ron
                        PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                        ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

                        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                        confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                        proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Ben
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                        > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                        > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                        > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                        > called _cvikla_).
                        >
                        > Martin
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Julie Michutka
                        ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                          On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                          >
                          >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                          >
                          > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                          > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                          Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                          time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                          division of the records like this.
                          >
                          >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                          >
                          > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                          'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                          peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                          the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                          obviously, have not.)

                          > But perhaps there's a Russian
                          > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                          > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
                          > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                          OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                          a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                          a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                          for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                          being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                          potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                          many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                          Ed wrote:
                          Were any beets grown
                          in the area?

                          It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                          book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                          village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                          Ron wrote:
                          nuances in one language do not always carry
                          over in another language.

                          I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                          expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                          distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                          our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                          something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                          teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                          "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                          baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                          for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                          to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                          used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                          I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                          in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                          Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                          what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                          modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                          Julie Michutka
                          jmm@...
                        • Ben Sorensen
                          Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                            Hi all,
                             
                            I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                            Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
                             
                            There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
                             
                            Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                             Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                            Ben



                            --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                            From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







                            On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                            >
                            >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                            >
                            > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                            > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                            Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                            time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                            division of the records like this.
                            >
                            >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                            >
                            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                            'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                            peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                            the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                            obviously, have not.)

                            > But perhaps there's a Russian
                            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                            OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                            a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                            a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                            for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                            being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                            potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                            many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                            Ed wrote:
                            Were any beets grown
                            in the area?

                            It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                            book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                            village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                            Ron wrote:
                            nuances in one language do not always carry
                            over in another language.

                            I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                            expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                            distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                            our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                            something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                            teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                            "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                            baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                            for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                            to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                            used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                            I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                            in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                            Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                            what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                            modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                            Julie Michutka
                            jmm@pathbridge. net


















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ben Sorensen
                            The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                              The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
                              He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
                              Ben

                              --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

                              From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
                              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






                              While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                              where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                              convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                              least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
                              reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                              "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

                              Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                              dictionary offers
                              convenient = vhodný
                              possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                              essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                              have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                              'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                              translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                              over in another language.

                              Ron
                              PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                              ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

                              --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                              confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                              proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Ben
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                              > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                              > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                              > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                              > called _cvikla_).
                              >
                              > Martin
                              >


















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • fbican@att.net
                              I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                                "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

                                Ben--

                                I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

                                Laskavy pozdravy,

                                Skeeter


                                -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                                Hi all,

                                I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                                Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                                There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                                Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                                Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                                Ben

                                --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                                From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                                On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                                >
                                >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                                >
                                > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                                > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                                Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                                time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                                division of the records like this.
                                >
                                >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                                >
                                > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                                'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                                peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                                the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                                obviously, have not.)

                                > But perhaps there's a Russian
                                > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                                > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                                > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                                OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                                a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                                a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                                for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                                being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                                potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                                many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                                Ed wrote:
                                Were any beets grown
                                in the area?

                                It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                                book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                                village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                                Ron wrote:
                                nuances in one language do not always carry
                                over in another language.

                                I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                                expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                                distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                                our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                                something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                                teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                                "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                                baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                                for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                                to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                                used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                                I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                                in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                                Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                                what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                                modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                                Julie Michutka
                                jmm@pathbridge. net

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John Polko
                                Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                                  Hello all,

                                  Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
                                  where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
                                  I have Pivo.

                                  Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
                                  always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

                                  Best regards,

                                  John e. Polko.

                                  ----Original Message-----

                                  From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
                                  Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
                                  Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


                                  Hi all,

                                  I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
                                  wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                                  Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
                                  of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
                                  Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
                                  and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
                                  Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
                                  had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                                  There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
                                  sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
                                  doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
                                  "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
                                  someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
                                  English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
                                  refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                                  Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
                                  than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
                                  foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
                                  VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
                                  love to know what got me.
                                  Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
                                  walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
                                  two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
                                  alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
                                  live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
                                  shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
                                  small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
                                  first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                                  Ben

                                  --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                                  On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                                  >
                                  > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                                  > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                                  Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                                  time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                                  division of the records like this.
                                  >
                                  >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                                  >
                                  > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                                  'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                                  peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                                  the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                                  obviously, have not.)

                                  > But perhaps there's a Russian
                                  > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                                  > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                                  > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                                  OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                                  a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                                  a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                                  for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                                  being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                                  potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                                  many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                                  Ed wrote:
                                  Were any beets grown
                                  in the area?

                                  It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                                  book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                                  village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                                  Ron wrote:
                                  nuances in one language do not always carry
                                  over in another language.

                                  I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                                  expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                                  distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                                  our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                                  something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                                  teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                                  "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                                  baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                                  for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                                  to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                                  used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                                  I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                                  in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                                  Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                                  what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                                  modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                                  Julie Michutka
                                  jmm@pathbridge. net

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Martin Votruba
                                  ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                                    > and this book is a translation.

                                    If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                                    I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                                    It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                                    now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                                    > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                                    "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                                    the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                                    in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                                    reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                                    To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                                    that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                                    been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                                    have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                                    that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                                    commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                                    as an ingredient to improve the product.


                                    > growing potatoes makes sense because

                                    I agree completely, Julie.


                                    Martin
                                  • Martin Votruba
                                    ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                                      > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                                      Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                                      shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                                      starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                                      There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                                      meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                                      years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                                      same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                                      arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                                      applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                                      seen before.

                                      The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                                      _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                                      Martin
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