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RE: [Slovak-World] marriage records question

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  • Armata, Joseph R
    I believe uzavrete manzelstva here just means contracted marriages ( closed/concluded like in closing a legal arrangement or business deal). You re right,
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
      I believe uzavrete manzelstva here just means contracted marriages ("closed/concluded" like in closing a legal arrangement or business deal). You're right, zmiesane malzenstva means mixed marriages.

      Joe



      >
      > Anyway, I noticed that the film details for one village had some terms
      > regarding marriage records that I'm not familiar with: uzavrete
      > manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva. (I didn't examine the latter
      > records, as they did not cover the time period I was searching, and
      > only realized there were two different labels for marriage records
      > later.) Looking at my Slovak dictionary, I'd guess that uzavrete
      > manzelstva probably means "private marriage"? The basic meaning
      > appears to be "enclosed", and by extension, "private"; while zmiesane
      > manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
      > maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
      > Or maybe "inside the auspices of the Catholic church" and
      > "outside..."? But if I remember right, civil marriages were non-
      > existent in the mid-1800s in Slovakia.....
      >
      > Does anyone know for sure what these mean and why the marriage records
      > would be divided like this? The years covered do overlap, the
      > uzavrete manzelstva records cover 1798-1898,and the zmiesane
      > manzelstva records 1832-1864.
      >
      > D'akujem za pomoc,
      >
      > Julie Michutka
      > jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>
      >
    • Ben Sorensen
      Hello all, Over the weekend, I saw an article (on a Slovak site) that stated America will do away with the traveler s visa for Slovakia by January (at the
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
        Hello all,
        Over the weekend, I saw an article (on a Slovak site) that stated America will do away with the traveler's visa for Slovakia by January (at the latest, they say.)
         
        While I was in Slovakia again this summer visiting family and friends, I couldn't help but wonder what the hold-up was... I saw the "middle-class" being able to afford things that we would have probably never thought affordable two and a half years ago, and also something that blew me away: People coming close to retirement were planning to do things FUN rather than take on odd jobs and crafts to be able to help out thier children and grandchildren! This mindset blew me away as it was always a bane to retire there, rather than a benefit. Gardening, helping build houses or add-ons to those houses, odd jobs, and craft-work were before the run of the mill post-retirement plans. (This is my observation, so it may or may not fit with "statistical findings.") Now, many are planning to run around the world, start new hobbies, etc...  I was sitting with my friend Milan in Spissky Stiavnik, and while talking about it, he too was amazed at what he saw. Newer
        cars, which were a norm in Bratislava or other more metropolitan areas were also becoming commonplace in the "vidiek" areas.  I joked that it is necessity- as the Skoda favorits are probably dying out. :-)
        All jokes aside, it is proof that the middle class in Slovakia, which wasn't in the depths of penury to begin with, is becoming much more affluent in spite of rising prices. (The prices, by the way, were rising and blowing me and my American income away:-P Milka too was a bit astounded, but we still went out and enjoyed.)
         
        When I compared the buying power in Slovakia and America, I realized that Slovaks could pick up so much stuff here in the way of suvenirs and clothing- for far less than what we pay there. So here is my big question: WHAT HAS BEEN THE HOLD UP? Why does an affluent country still have a travel visa placed on them? My friends all say that they would love to come and visit, but the truth is that working here at a summer job doesn't do them all that well- there are better places for them to go in the EU than here. The dollar is at about 20SK right now, and the Euro will do them better. What keeps that visa in place? Does anyone know if it will be gone in January, or is this again wishful thinking? (When George Bush met Vladimir Putin in BA in 2005, he commented on the visa. EVERYONE seemed to think that the visa would then be gone by 2006- even though Bush never said that.)
         
        I would love to hear your thoughts on this...
        Ben 




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ben Sorensen
        I just asked my wife to be sure, and she told me that we have a uzavrete manzelstvo... uzavreli sme manzelstvo 19,6,2004... So, a uzavrete manzelstvo is a
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
          I just asked my wife to be sure, and she told me that we have a "uzavrete manzelstvo... uzavreli sme manzelstvo 19,6,2004..."
          So, a uzavrete manzelstvo is a term for a "done deal (NOT an official translation...)" :-P It is an official wedding. It is the end of life as every single man knows it.
           
          She then reminded me that I am NOT allowed to forget our anniversary.... jaj, zivot pokracuje dalej...
          Ben

          --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

          From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
          Subject: [Slovak-World] marriage records question
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 8:17 AM






          Dobre rano, y'all!

          I recently returned from an awesome vacation/road trip, driving from
          Denver to San Francisco. We spent a day and a half in Salt Lake City,
          and I squeezed in about 3 hours at Mecca, I mean, at the Family
          History Library, where I attempted to batter down my biggest Slovak
          brick wall. I had no luck, unfortunately, but I saved myself a lot of
          time and aggravation and some money by not having to order films, wait
          for them to arrive, wait for my local little FHL to be open, etc.
          Whizzed through the records of 3 villages, trying to find my great-
          grandmother' s baptismal and/or marriage records. Jeez, I still don't
          know where she came from.....

          Anyway, I noticed that the film details for one village had some terms
          regarding marriage records that I'm not familiar with: uzavrete
          manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva. (I didn't examine the latter
          records, as they did not cover the time period I was searching, and
          only realized there were two different labels for marriage records
          later.) Looking at my Slovak dictionary, I'd guess that uzavrete
          manzelstva probably means "private marriage"? The basic meaning
          appears to be "enclosed", and by extension, "private"; while zmiesane
          manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
          maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
          Or maybe "inside the auspices of the Catholic church" and
          "outside..." ? But if I remember right, civil marriages were non-
          existent in the mid-1800s in Slovakia.... .

          Does anyone know for sure what these mean and why the marriage records
          would be divided like this? The years covered do overlap, the
          uzavrete manzelstva records cover 1798-1898,and the zmiesane
          manzelstva records 1832-1864.

          D'akujem za pomoc,

          Julie Michutka
          jmm@pathbridge. net

















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fbican@att.net
          Julie-- while zmiesane manzelstva seems to mean mixed marriage . Wish I d looked at those, maybe it d be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
            Julie--

            "while zmiesane
            manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
            maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic? "

            That's most likely the case. Not to hijack your thread, but as an aside, back in the 1960's, my cousin married a Jewish man, whom my Polish-Catholic uncle referred to as "That Jew bastard". Well, that Jew served the US Army in the Korean war, and came back to set up his own company. He gave both myself and my brother jobs that enabled us to go to college with no student loans. I'm a Christian, but while I was in college I belonged to a Jewish fraternity.

            http://www.aepi.org/site/pp.asp?c=geJQIUOwErH&b=2116949

            I learned a great many things and met some great fellows while I was there.

            Even today, I think there's a great deal of intra-religious animosity, and I'm guessing that's what " zmiesane
            manzelstva" probably referred to.

            Kindest regards,

            Skeeter

            -------------- Original message from Julie Michutka <jmm@...>: --------------

            Dobre rano, y'all!

            I recently returned from an awesome vacation/road trip, driving from
            Denver to San Francisco. We spent a day and a half in Salt Lake City,
            and I squeezed in about 3 hours at Mecca, I mean, at the Family
            History Library, where I attempted to batter down my biggest Slovak
            brick wall. I had no luck, unfortunately, but I saved myself a lot of
            time and aggravation and some money by not having to order films, wait
            for them to arrive, wait for my local little FHL to be open, etc.
            Whizzed through the records of 3 villages, trying to find my great-
            grandmother's baptismal and/or marriage records. Jeez, I still don't
            know where she came from.....

            Anyway, I noticed that the film details for one village had some terms
            regarding marriage records that I'm not familiar with: uzavrete
            manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva. (I didn't examine the latter
            records, as they did not cover the time period I was searching, and
            only realized there were two different labels for marriage records
            later.) Looking at my Slovak dictionary, I'd guess that uzavrete
            manzelstva probably means "private marriage"? The basic meaning
            appears to be "enclosed", and by extension, "private"; while zmiesane
            manzelstva seems to mean "mixed marriage". Wish I'd looked at those,
            maybe it'd be obvious what they were--mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
            Or maybe "inside the auspices of the Catholic church" and
            "outside..."? But if I remember right, civil marriages were non-
            existent in the mid-1800s in Slovakia.....

            Does anyone know for sure what these mean and why the marriage records
            would be divided like this? The years covered do overlap, the
            uzavrete manzelstva records cover 1798-1898,and the zmiesane
            manzelstva records 1832-1864.

            D'akujem za pomoc,

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Julie Michutka
            Thanks, guys. Wish I d looked at the mixed marriages, just out of curiosity, but it wasn t the time period I was searching, and I had really limited time at
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
              Thanks, guys. Wish I'd looked at the mixed marriages, just out of
              curiosity, but it wasn't the time period I was searching, and I had
              really limited time at the library. Next trip ;)


              On Sep 2, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:

              > I believe uzavrete manzelstva here just means contracted marriages
              > ("closed/concluded" like in closing a legal arrangement or business
              > deal). You're right, zmiesane malzenstva means mixed marriages.
              and Ben wrote:

              uzavrete manzelstvo is a term for a "done deal (NOT an official
              translation...)" :-P It is an official wedding.
            • fbican@att.net
              Ahoj, Julie, et.al.-- If you haven t done so already, here s a genealogy site that you might want to investigate. http://www.cyndislist.com/ It s worth a shot.
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
                Ahoj, Julie, et.al.--

                If you haven't done so already, here's a genealogy site that you might want to investigate.

                http://www.cyndislist.com/

                It's worth a shot.

                Kindest regards,

                Skeeter

                -------------- Original message from Julie Michutka <jmm@...>: --------------

                Thanks, guys. Wish I'd looked at the mixed marriages, just out of
                curiosity, but it wasn't the time period I was searching, and I had
                really limited time at the library. Next trip ;)

                On Sep 2, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Armata, Joseph R wrote:

                > I believe uzavrete manzelstva here just means contracted marriages
                > ("closed/concluded" like in closing a legal arrangement or business
                > deal). You're right, zmiesane malzenstva means mixed marriages.
                and Ben wrote:

                uzavrete manzelstvo is a term for a "done deal (NOT an official
                translation...)" :-P It is an official wedding.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Votruba
                ... As Ben has already said, the phrase simply means marriages registered [in this record]. ... Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
                  > uzavrete manzelstva and zmiesane manzelstva.

                  As Ben has already said, the phrase simply means "marriages registered
                  [in this record]."


                  > mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?

                  Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                  customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.


                  > groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"

                  Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                  forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                  Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
                  confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                  of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                  plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                  regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                  called _cvikla_).


                  Martin
                • Ben Sorensen
                  Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
                    Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

                    I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

                    I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

                    Thanks,
                    Ben




                    Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                    forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                    Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                    confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                    of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                    plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                    regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                    called _cvikla_).

                    Martin
                  • fbican@att.net
                    Not to disrespect Martin, as I m sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I ve found
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
                      Not to disrespect Martin, as I'm sure he knows far more than I do, but these are the best free online dictionaries I've found

                      http://www.ectaco.co.uk/Electronic-Dictionaries/

                      I've been using the Lingo Global 29 pocket translator,

                      http://www.amazon.com/Lingo-TR-2900-Global-Language-Translator/dp/B000AI2TU6

                      and it usually gets me by. I did not like Babylon and had a hard time uninstalling it from my computer. The Lingo is no replacement for a multi-lingual grandmothers, but it's the best I can do. My grandmothers passed away many years ago.

                      Kindest regards,

                      Skeeter



                      -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                      Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries. For example, "spokojny" is often presented as "content," but it isn't REALLY this. It doesn't feel the same. Close, but no proverbial cigar.

                      I have also seen some outright mistakes in them too and wonder if there is a really GOOD bilingual dictionary out there.

                      I have one question that MAY shed light on the subject of potatos and molasses (or melasa): what is the main ingredient of um? IF it is the byproduct of melasa, we may be onto something....

                      Thanks,
                      Ben

                      Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                      forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                      Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                      confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                      of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                      plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                      regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                      called _cvikla_).

                      Martin




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ron Matviyak
                      While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase that is not convenient , with the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                        While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                        where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                        convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                        least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
                        reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                        "inconvenient" and "impossible".

                        Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                        dictionary offers
                        convenient = vhodný
                        possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                        essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                        have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                        'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                        translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                        over in another language.

                        Ron
                        PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                        ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine


                        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                        confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                        proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Ben
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                        > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                        > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                        > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                        > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                        > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                        > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                        > called _cvikla_).
                        >
                        > Martin
                        >
                      • fbican@att.net
                        Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak, Inconvenient = nevhodny Impossible = nemozny I don t know if this is of any help. Kindest regards,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                          Well, acording to my electronic translator, into Slovak,

                          Inconvenient = nevhodny

                          Impossible = nemozny

                          I don't know if this is of any help.

                          Kindest regards,

                          Skeeter

                          -------------- Original message from "Ron Matviyak" <rmat@...>: --------------

                          While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                          where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                          convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                          least VERY inconvenient". It was only a few years ago that I found a
                          reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                          "inconvenient" and "impossible".

                          Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                          dictionary offers
                          convenient = vhodný
                          possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                          essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                          have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                          'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                          translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                          over in another language.

                          Ron
                          PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                          ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

                          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                          confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                          proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Ben
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                          > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                          > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                          > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                          > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                          > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                          > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                          > called _cvikla_).
                          >
                          > Martin
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Julie Michutka
                          ... Interesting, hadn t thought of that; makes sense. There s a first time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a division of the records
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                            On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                            >
                            >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                            >
                            > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                            > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                            Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                            time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                            division of the records like this.
                            >
                            >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                            >
                            > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                            'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                            peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                            the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                            obviously, have not.)

                            > But perhaps there's a Russian
                            > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                            > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish)--English lexical
                            > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                            OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                            a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                            a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                            for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                            being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                            potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                            many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                            Ed wrote:
                            Were any beets grown
                            in the area?

                            It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                            book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                            village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                            Ron wrote:
                            nuances in one language do not always carry
                            over in another language.

                            I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                            expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                            distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                            our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                            something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                            teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                            "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                            baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                            for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                            to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                            used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                            I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                            in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                            Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                            what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                            modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                            Julie Michutka
                            jmm@...
                          • Ben Sorensen
                            Hi all,   I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                              Hi all,
                               
                              I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                              Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."
                               
                              There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)
                               
                              Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                               Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                              Ben



                              --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                              From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM







                              On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                              >
                              >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                              >
                              > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                              > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                              Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                              time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                              division of the records like this.
                              >
                              >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                              >
                              > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                              'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                              peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                              the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                              obviously, have not.)

                              > But perhaps there's a Russian
                              > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                              > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                              > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                              OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                              a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                              a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                              for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                              being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                              potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                              many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                              Ed wrote:
                              Were any beets grown
                              in the area?

                              It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                              book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                              village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                              Ron wrote:
                              nuances in one language do not always carry
                              over in another language.

                              I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                              expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                              distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                              our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                              something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                              teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                              "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                              baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                              for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                              to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                              used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                              I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                              in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                              Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                              what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                              modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                              Julie Michutka
                              jmm@pathbridge. net


















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Ben Sorensen
                              The voice for the Little Big Country Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68. He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                                The voice for the "Little Big Country" Slovakia ad died. Don Lafontaine was only 68.
                                He did alot of voice-overs for movie trailers and his voice was one of the most recognizable in the industry. Just thought I would let you all know.
                                Ben

                                --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:

                                From: Ron Matviyak <rmat@...>
                                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:03 AM






                                While working in Lithuania in 1993 there were a number of instances
                                where an (ethnic Russian) Lithuanian used the phrase "that is not
                                convenient", with the intonation that "that is not possible, or at
                                least VERY inconvenient" . It was only a few years ago that I found a
                                reference in writing that stated Russians will often confuse
                                "inconvenient" and "impossible" .

                                Just checking for a Slovak connection now, I find my electronic
                                dictionary offers
                                convenient = vhodný
                                possible = mo¾ný, vhodný

                                essentially carrying over the same confusion of terms. I believe we
                                have brushed on the topic of languages and cultures cutting their
                                'language pie' differrntly, and there not always being direct
                                translations of a word; nuances in one language do not always carry
                                over in another language.

                                Ron
                                PS the Hessians (Germans) have a fun song about a sugar beet machine
                                ... the Rebe Rübe Reibmaschine

                                --- In Slovak-World@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@. ..> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Martin, this is an AMAZING idea about the English lexical
                                confusion. I find that there is ALOT of confusion- and very often
                                proliferated by the bilingual dictionaries.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Ben
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-) But perhaps there's a Russian
                                > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                                > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                                > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet? New crops had a variety
                                > of local names and the same name was sometimes applied to different
                                > plants. Eg., the Slovak _repa_ mostly means "sugar beet," but is used
                                > regionally to refer to potatoes (and also to beetroot, which is mostly
                                > called _cvikla_).
                                >
                                > Martin
                                >


















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • fbican@att.net
                                I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-) Ben-- I m something of an insomniac, take
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                                  "I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)"

                                  Ben--

                                  I'm something of an insomniac, take little cat-naps throughout the day. I usually poop-out around midnight and wake up about 4AM. There's a plus-side to that. I called my friend in Australia (12hr time difference) at 6AM this morning (6PM his time), so that works out well.

                                  Laskavy pozdravy,

                                  Skeeter


                                  -------------- Original message from Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>: --------------

                                  Hi all,

                                  I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                                  Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                                  There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code" doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                                  Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would love to know what got me.
                                  Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank- alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                                  Ben

                                  --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                                  On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                                  >
                                  > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                                  > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                                  Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                                  time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                                  division of the records like this.
                                  >
                                  >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                                  >
                                  > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                                  'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                                  peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                                  the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                                  obviously, have not.)

                                  > But perhaps there's a Russian
                                  > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                                  > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                                  > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                                  OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                                  a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                                  a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                                  for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                                  being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                                  potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                                  many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                                  Ed wrote:
                                  Were any beets grown
                                  in the area?

                                  It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                                  book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                                  village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                                  Ron wrote:
                                  nuances in one language do not always carry
                                  over in another language.

                                  I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                                  expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                                  distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                                  our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                                  something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                                  teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                                  "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                                  baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                                  for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                                  to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                                  used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                                  I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                                  in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                                  Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                                  what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                                  modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                                  Julie Michutka
                                  jmm@pathbridge. net

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Polko
                                  Hello all, Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel, where I asked matse room . The response I got, was, I don t have rum,
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                                    Hello all,

                                    Speaking about rum, I arrived in Prague at about 4:00 AM and found a hotel,
                                    where I asked "matse room". The response I got, was, I don't have rum, but
                                    I have Pivo.

                                    Just one of the mistakes of an exuberant traveller. My brother- in- law
                                    always gets a chuckle out of that story whenever it pops up in conversation.

                                    Best regards,

                                    John e. Polko.

                                    ----Original Message-----

                                    From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On
                                    Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
                                    Sent: September 3, 2008 8:25 AM
                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question and other strings


                                    Hi all,

                                    I was reading through all this stuff that was written this morning- and
                                    wow, what time do you guys all get up? :-)
                                    Anyways, beets (sugar beets) are grown in Slovakia, and this is the basis
                                    of an expression- Slovak jak repa. Also, though the Czech Republic and
                                    Slovakia are not the largest exporters, the Czech Tuzemak "rum" is famous
                                    and a product of this crop. It is also good stuff... But I wonder about the
                                    Slovak Um. :-) All I know about it is that it is great stuff and when they
                                    had to change the name, I was happy that they chose "um" rather than "RRRR."

                                    There are always problems when translating, and I find that Milka and I
                                    sometimes pull a word or phrase from the other language when the used "code"
                                    doesn't suffice. "Cute" in English may be translated as "mily" or
                                    "rozkosny," but niether really has that same feeling. At the same time, when
                                    someone is "sikovny" in Slovak, you can't get the same meaning across in
                                    English except to say that the person is very good, talented, and has
                                    refined or honed-in skill. Even that doesn't cut it. :-)

                                    Anyways, I have to say that America has meaner and more abundant wildlife
                                    than Slovakia. On Labor Day, we were all cooking out, and something bit my
                                    foot- now I have a bunch of little "pimples" where this thing bit me and a
                                    VERY swollen foot- that is kinda gross. It is too numb to hurt, but I would
                                    love to know what got me.
                                    Misa is shocked to see hawks in more metropolitan areas, and we were out
                                    walking around- and I wouldn't let Niki (our son) down- because I noticed
                                    two eyes and two nostrils sticking out of the water near the bank-
                                    alligator. Misa always thought that I was lying about American wildlife- we
                                    live in Wilminton, NC- until she saw it for herself. :-) The biggest
                                    shocker- we were at the beach on a pier, and a guy fishing there caught a
                                    small shark. The look on her face was priceless... much like mine when I
                                    first encountered a wolf in Slovakia....
                                    Ben

                                    --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

                                    From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records question
                                    To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 AM

                                    On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> mixed Catholic and non-Catholic?
                                    >
                                    > Yes. The farther back we go under the Habsburgs, the more formal and
                                    > customary regulations there were that governed such marriages.

                                    Interesting, hadn't thought of that; makes sense. There's a first
                                    time for everything, and this is the first time I encountered a
                                    division of the records like this.
                                    >
                                    >> groaning, "she's at it again about potatoes!"
                                    >
                                    > Oh, and in Russia to boot... 8-)

                                    'Cause, y'know, there's soooo much written in English about Slovak
                                    peasant life! But I know how tolerant you've been of my questions in
                                    the past, and assume that you have not changed over the summer. (I,
                                    obviously, have not.)

                                    > But perhaps there's a Russian
                                    > forum somewhere that knows about the ways of the Russian peasant.
                                    > Could it stem from some (Older) Russian--(Polish) --English lexical
                                    > confusion concerning potatoes and sugar beet?

                                    OK, my first reaction was, who the heck would confuse a sugar beet and
                                    a potato? But a lexical confusion could make sense, and this book is
                                    a translation. But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets
                                    for their own consumption, but that's because I only know of them
                                    being used for sugar production and cattle feed. Whereas growing
                                    potatoes makes sense because (all together now!) you get four times as
                                    many calories per unit of land as you do growing wheat., etc.

                                    Ed wrote:
                                    Were any beets grown
                                    in the area?

                                    It doesn't mention them (unless it's a confusion in terms); but the
                                    book only discusses things as they relate to the peasants of that one
                                    village, and gives no idea about local agriculture beyond that.

                                    Ron wrote:
                                    nuances in one language do not always carry
                                    over in another language.

                                    I think the nuances *seldom* carry over; where we get tripped up is
                                    expecting the basic meaning to carry over, eg the vocabulary
                                    distinction between potatoes and sugar beets. We even get confused in
                                    our own language, over-extending the use of a word to include
                                    something "like" but not "the same". Raised in farm land, I grit my
                                    teeth when suburban discussions of property development refer to using
                                    "hay bales" along the property line, when it is so obvious that the
                                    baled material used is straw, and who the heck would waste good hay
                                    for something like that anyway? Or someone refers to feeding "straw"
                                    to cows and horses. And this could explain one term in Slovak being
                                    used for both potatoes and sugar beets....

                                    I have a whole pile of books to read this fall, including one written
                                    in Czech about quality of land in different areas (including now-
                                    Slovakia) during the reign of Maria Teresa (at least, I think that's
                                    what it's about ...) Be prepared for more weird questions. (More is
                                    modifying "questions", not "weird", in case you're worried)

                                    Julie Michutka
                                    jmm@pathbridge. net

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Martin Votruba
                                    ... If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely I d say), it would have happened in an older source the author used. It could have
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                                      > and this book is a translation.

                                      If it is a lexical error (just a possibility, not particularly likely
                                      I'd say), it would have happened in an older source the author used.
                                      It could have said that the farmers grew xxyyzz, using a regional or
                                      now-obsolete word, which was later taken to refer to potatoes.

                                      > But I can't think why peasants would grow sugar beets

                                      "Own consumption" could have started as "own use" (as opposed to "for
                                      the landlord"), etc. A thing to consider is that, unlike the farmers
                                      in the Kingdom of Hungary, the peasant serfs of Russia were mostly
                                      reduced to growing what the landlord told them.

                                      To wrap it up, I think it's more likely that they grew potatoes and
                                      that the apparently causal reference to the molasses factory may have
                                      been intended as merely concurrent, or that the author herself may
                                      have been mistaken about a link between molasses and potatoes, or
                                      that, as Ben suggested, the potatoes may have become a source of
                                      commercially produced alcohol after molasses became available locally
                                      as an ingredient to improve the product.


                                      > growing potatoes makes sense because

                                      I agree completely, Julie.


                                      Martin
                                    • Martin Votruba
                                      ... Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that starts as
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                                        > the use of a word to include something "like" but not "the same".

                                        Let me add two examples with well known words concerning plants. Such
                                        shifts are quite common with all kinds of words: a use of a word that
                                        starts as "wrong" or "confused" becomes the norm.

                                        There's the good, ancient word, _corn_ in "Anglo-Germanic," that has
                                        meant the usual European crops in European languages for perhaps 4,000
                                        years (the same ancient word resulted in the Slovak _zrno_ with the
                                        same meaning, in the Latin _granum_, etc.). And yet, when the Anglos
                                        arrived in America, they abandoned its well-established meaning and
                                        applied the ancient word _corn_ to a single new plant they'd never
                                        seen before.

                                        The word _marmalade_ is based on the word that gave the English
                                        _melon_ (and used to mean "quince"), not _orange_.


                                        Martin
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