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RE: [Slovak-World] Re: Questions on ch.5

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  • konekta@nm.psg.sk
    Dear Martin, My experience shows, there was not much of intermarriage between Germans and Slovaks. ( how much is much?) Germans were living in rather closed
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 3, 2007
      Dear Martin,
      My experience shows, there was not much of intermarriage between Germans and
      Slovaks. ( how much is much?)
      Germans were living in rather closed communities, also called "language
      islands". Sure, there were also Germans, who were living more dispersed, but
      this was little, compared to the others.
      I have two separate databases, one slovak and one german and there are very
      little connections.Mostly slovak women took Germans, it this happened.

      I can not agree with the statement, that many Slovaks were Burghers. In most
      of the larger towns, Slovaks were clear minority.
      100 years ago, in Bratislava, if I am not mistaking, there were only about
      19 % Slovaks, many of them servants/maids.
      Look at the cemetery names of Kosice. Hardly a slovak name there.
      I read in one book about how the Slovaks were making plans to "slovakize"
      Ruzomberok.
      In 19th century, Nove Mesto n.V, was predominantly Jewish. Very similar
      situation was in Vrbove and many other places.
      Not to speak of "german towns". You can see that in 1869 census.

      I also can not agree, that Slovaks as being farmers were no different than
      other ethnicities; Jews were not farmers, Roma were not farmers. I would say
      a third of the Germans were farmers, while the rest were miners and wine
      growers, roughly.

      Slovakian consciousness in 1600 is a joke.
      I have a 100 years old book called The development of the slovak
      consciousness; the author complains, that however he counts, he can not find
      more than 50 distinguished and active patriots.
      He presents a very long list of all known slovak persons in Slovakia and
      abroad, who were declared patriots, though.This list is indexed by towns,
      and was compiled by a Notary public with the help of very many people.
      Regards,
      Vladimir



      _____

      From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Martin Votruba
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 4:09 AM
      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Questions on ch.5



      > Germans and Slovaks seemed to be two groups living side by side
      > in Slovakia. Was there much contact/mixing/intermarriage

      There must have been. The way ethnicity worked in traditional farming
      communities, which had enormous inertia, was that whoever married and
      moved into an ethnicity's majority area switched their ethnicity to
      the local majority ethnicity, or their children did. It still works
      like that today. About a third of the married Hungarians in Slovakia
      have Slovak spouses and yet, the percentage of the Hungarians in
      Slovakia is hardly dropping. The children of the mixed couples mostly
      adopt the ethnicity that is in the majority in their village and area.

      > Did they consider themselves separate social classes, seeing
      > that the Germans were concentrated in the cities

      Based on their place of residence and jobs rather than merely on
      ethnicity. The majority of the Germans in Slovakia were farmers just
      like the Slovaks. And there were many Slovak burghers, their numbers
      growing as time went by, plus Slovak noblemen, of course. A burgher
      was a burgher, a villager a villager, a nobleman a nobleman regardless
      of their ethnicity. But except for the occasional restrictions the
      German burghers tried to place on the Slovaks' and Hungarians'
      eligibility to town offices, there are no obvious records from about
      250+ years ago that would tell us whether the higher nobility bothered
      to think of themselves as belonging to any particular ethnicity rather
      than to the privileged class in the kingdom.

      > were lower-level Lutheran schools established at this time?
      > Were girls also included among the pupils? Were the other
      > lower-level schools at that time run mainly by the Catholic
      > Church or the state?

      If we're talking about the 16th century, certainly no state grade
      schools. Yes, the Lutheran reformation was the first period when
      literacy and education began to spread in the Kingdom. And hardly any
      Catholic grade schools, either. Slovakia was 90% Lutheran by the
      early 17th century.

      > Were the Slovaks mainly farmers?

      Yes, but that made them no different from the other ethnicities in the
      Kingdom, and Europe for that matter.

      > while Germans, Magyars and Slovaks "found equal representation"
      > on town councils...many other ethnic groups did not [Rusyns,
      > Romanies and South Slavs].

      The book is about the Slovak majority areas, so it says little about
      those who weren't represented in substantial numbers there. There's
      no doubt that the Roma were not represented partly because their
      society operated outside the Slovak-German-Hungarian society. We'd
      have to read books on Croatia, Sub-Carpathia to learn about the other
      groups.

      > Slovakian consciousness in the 1900s, but Spiesz asserts it as
      > early as the 1600s

      There's no doubt about that. A translation of Luther's Catechism
      published in the Slovak counties of the Kingdom in 1585 says
      explicitly that it is a Latin-Slovak publication and "Slovak," of
      course, meant the language of the people in that part of the Kingdom,
      the publisher surely didn't mean anything as ridiculous as "a
      translation to a universal Slavic language to be used from Moscow to
      Ljubljana" or something.

      Unlike most other Slavs, the Slovaks and Slovenes did not adopt a
      territorial name. They developed their modern names from the old word
      for "Slavs." It gives some people trouble to understand that when
      someone in, say, Svaty Mikulas (now Slovakia), or Maribor (now
      Slovenia) said he was a "Slav" and spoke "Slavic" in the 16th century,
      he didn't mean he spoke a universal Slavic language, as opposed to the
      nieghboring Poles or Croatians.

      The meaning was very specific. In Svaty Mikulas the word meant only
      the ancestors of modern Slovaks, and in Maribor it meant only he
      ancestors of modern Slovenes.

      Another illustrative evidence is, e.g., an account by a German visitor
      to Spis County in the 17th century who clearly differentiated between
      the Slovaks and their language, the Rusyns and their language, and the
      Poles and their language. If "Slovak" really meant "Slavic" as some
      imagine, there would be no such three names, because the Slovaks, the
      Rusyns, and the Poles were all Slavs. The German visitor could not
      possibly have written then, as he did, that he was able to speak
      Polish and Slovak, and had learned to speak some Rusyn if the claims
      about _Slovak_ meaning "Slav" and there being no recognition of Slovak
      identity separate from that of the neighboring Slavs were true.

      Martin






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Plichta
      There is a more recent list of distinguished Slovaks: Slovak Biographical Dictionary , written by PhDr Augustin Mat ovcik et al. The text contains
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 3, 2007
        There is a more recent list of distinguished Slovaks:

        "Slovak Biographical Dictionary", written by PhDr Augustin Mat'ovcik et al.

        The text contains biographical data on 800 Slovaks (from all time periods)
        and was published by Biographical Institute of Matica Slovenska's Natural
        Culture Memorial, Martin.

        The First English Edition was published in 2002.



        Frank R. Plichta

        Galax, Virginia



        _____

        From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of konekta@...
        Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:40 AM
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SPAM]RE: [Slovak-World] Re: Questions on ch.5


        I have a 100 years old book called The development of the slovak
        consciousness; the author complains, that however he counts, he can not find
        more than 50 distinguished and active patriots.
        He presents a very long list of all known slovak persons in Slovakia and
        abroad, who were declared patriots, though. Regards,
        Vladimir






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Martin Votruba
        ... A well phrased argument. ... Check the chapter we re reading and discussing, please. The number of Jews was negligible in the sum total of the Slovak
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 3, 2007
          > Slovakian consciousness in 1600 is a joke.

          A well phrased argument.


          > I also can not agree, that Slovaks as being farmers were no
          > different than other ethnicities;Jews were not farmers, Roma
          > were not farmers.

          Check the chapter we're reading and discussing, please. The number of
          Jews was negligible in the sum total of the Slovak majority areas and
          I explicitly excluded the Gypsies, Croats, Rusyns. I was talking
          about the Slovaks, Germans, Hungarians.


          > however he counts, he can not find
          > more than 50 distinguished and active patriots.

          That is the root of the problem. Ethnic pride, patriotism based on
          ethnicity are modern things in Central Europe that began to emerge
          200-250 years ago. No one was an active _ethnic_ patriot earlier.
          There were country patriots, for the Kingdom of Hungary in this
          instance, of many ethnicities including the Slovaks. When some people
          imagine that there was no Slovak consciousness 250+ years ago, they
          mean there were no Slovaks who demanded self-government, wrote poems
          about their ethnic past, etc. That's perfectly true for the Slovaks,
          Hungarians, Moravians, Poles, etc. It does not make any of the groups
          different from the others.

          But the "Slavic speakers" in Trencin County were called Slovaks just
          like the the "Slavic speakers" in Spis County were, and the "Hungarian
          speakers" from Novohrad County were called Hungarians just like the
          "Hungarian speakers" from Baranya Country although their respective
          dialects differed quite a bit. On the other hand the "Slavic
          speakers" of Saris Country were clearly differentiated into Slovaks
          and Rusyns although they both spoke "Slavic" and therefore, according
          to those who say there was no Slovak awareness, only Slavic, these
          Slavs and their languages should not be differentiated. Contrary to
          claims that there was none, that people thought of themselves as
          "Slavs," there was a well-documented differentiation and awareness of
          belonging to the sets of inhabitants called "Slovaks," or "Rusyns," or
          "Poles," or "Hungarians," etc.


          > Bratislava, if I am not mistaking, there were only about
          > 19 % Slovaks, many of them servants/maids.
          > Look at the cemetery names of Kosice.

          This may partly be a misunderstanding caused by the words I used.
          When I said "burghers," I meant the people who lived in towns in
          whatever capacity and for whatever reason, the councilors and servants
          alike. And 19% is plenty by comparison to the claims that there were
          none. But mainly, I meant the towns in the Slovak majority areas
          (both Bratislava and Kosice were in the Slovak/non-Slovak borderlands,
          additionally, the names in the Kosice cemetery partly reflect the
          results of 100 years of Hungarianization in the 19th century). Those
          towns were "towns" by the local standards in the the chapter we're
          reading now, no matter how much or little resemblance they bore to
          towns like Kosice and Bratislava.

          So let me clarify -- during the period discussed in the chapter we're
          reading now, there were plenty (15%-95%) Slovak inhabitants in towns
          in the Slovak majority areas -- plenty by contrasts to claims that
          there were none or barely any -- and there was so much intermarriage
          between the Slovaks and Germans that large farming areas that used to
          be almost exclusively German had significant Slovak minorities, or
          Slovak majorities by the 19th century. The same applied to the
          inhabitants of towns.

          This is as much as I'll have to say on this. I'm reluctant to mix
          "jokes" with factual discussion.


          Martin
        • Ron Matviyak
          For a view of the current attitudes and German-American interpretation of the history of Germans in Slovakia, it may be good to start with several pages and
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 3, 2007
            For a view of the current attitudes and German-American interpretation
            of the history of Germans in Slovakia, it may be good to start with
            several pages and some writings by one of S-W contributors, Thomas
            Reimer.
            http://www.geocities.com/ycrtmr/
            and perhaps two variations on the same web page,
            http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/slovak-e.html
            http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/slovak.html

            I say German-American much the same as I would say Slovak-American.
            Our American view is not necessarily the same as the home-grown Slovak
            view. There is a lot on politics and not so much on life style and
            culture over the centuries. The writing harks back to the old style
            before the more modern histories and writings started to appear in the
            1990's. Much like the Hungarian writing of the old era the history is
            presented as that of Germans to the point of neglecting other ethnic
            groups (and the Hungarians!) and presenting most all location names in
            German only, making it difficult to follow with modern maps and names.
            Including modern place names in parentheses would be a great help and
            service a broader audience. Recent Hungarian histories seem to have
            overcome these boundaries.

            Ron


            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ther Germans and Slovaks seemed to be two groups living side by side
            in Slovakia. Was there much contact/mixing/intermarriage was there
            between the two? Did they consider themselves separate social
            classes, seeing that the Germans were concentrated in the cities and
            mining operations while the Slovaks were mainly farmers?
            >
            > Spiesz mentions the Catholic institutions of higher learning, as
            well as the Protestant lyceum in Pres~ov. Given that the Lutherans
            placed great importance on people reading the Bible for themselves,
            were lower-level Lutheran schools established at this time? Were
            girls also included among the pupils? Were the other lower-level
            schools at that time run mainly by the Catholic Church or the state?
            >
            > H
            >
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