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19th cent. occupation/cause of death

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  • Margo Smith
    The 19th century Catholic church records from the Turiec Valley include some occupations and causes of death. My childhood friend who has the equivalent of an
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 27, 2007
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      The 19th century Catholic church records from the Turiec Valley include some occupations and causes of death. My childhood friend who has the equivalent of an undergraduate degree in Latin, and the Oxford Latin Dictionary are not totally illuminating for a couple of terms:

      1) Quaestor (sometimes quaestor mercium). This is a male occupation in a small farming village (e.g., Moskovec) for men from farm families. There may be > 1 per village. Oxford says they are magistrates who performed mainly financial duties. What did they do? Does this mean they were educated, or at least literate? Were they appointed, or elected, or self-selected?

      2) Misere. This is a cause of death for adults. Oxford says it was pitiful or wretched or desperate. What would these people have died from? (usually causes of death listed are things like cholera, smallpox, dropsy, etc. -- even marasmus)

      Do any of you have any ideas about what these terms might refer to?

      [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects about the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The high rate of infant and early childhood mortality in the farming villages. Families often had many children, but it was not uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die young. Marasmus among the elderly. Even though farming is a relatively dangerous occupation, I found no references to people dying in agricultural accidents. Of course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]


      ---------------------------------
      Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marianne Petruska
      I think you ve started another interesting discussion for us. Several years ago, at a lecture on Hungarian genealogy, I was told that angina did NOT mean
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 27, 2007
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        I think you've started another interesting discussion for us.

        Several years ago, at a lecture on Hungarian genealogy, I was told that
        "angina" did NOT mean the same thing in the late 1800s that it means
        today. I'd seen "angina" listed as the cause of death of several children
        as well as for an adult in church records for my paternal ancestors' village
        (in a farming area).
        I can't answer your questions re: the definition of "Misere" -- but I'll
        take a guess that perhaps that was there term for "depression"? You
        mentioned it was the cause of death for adults: Was this listed as the
        cause of death for a widow/widower, a middle-aged woman or an elderly person
        (or all of the above)?

        Perhaps your Latin dictionary can give me a few definitions for other causes
        of death: "Variola rubia", "tussis cum colica", "calida febris", "acensio
        pulmonum" & "hydrosis".

        Having had to learn a certain amount of Latin in school (bless those RC
        nuns!), my guesses are:
        "Variola rubia" might be scarlet fever/virus; "tussis cum colica" may
        be similar to whooping cough; "calida febris" may be a "high fever";
        "acensio pulmonum" possibly rapid heartbeat or enlarged heart or something
        to do with the lungs; "hydrosis" is the stumper. (I know "hyper-hydrosis"
        has to do with excessive sweating, but I doubt that sweating could be a
        cause of death unless it's associated with a fever or viral infection.)

        MARIANNE



        On 9/27/07, Margo Smith <margolane61@...> wrote:
        >
        > The 19th century Catholic church records from the Turiec Valley include
        > some occupations and causes of death. My childhood friend who has the
        > equivalent of an undergraduate degree in Latin, and the Oxford Latin
        > Dictionary are not totally illuminating for a couple of terms:
        >
        > 1) Quaestor (sometimes quaestor mercium). This is a male occupation in a
        > small farming village (e.g., Moskovec) for men from farm families. There
        > may be > 1 per village. Oxford says they are magistrates who performed
        > mainly financial duties. What did they do? Does this mean they were
        > educated, or at least literate? Were they appointed, or elected, or
        > self-selected?
        >
        > 2) Misere. This is a cause of death for adults. Oxford says it was pitiful
        > or wretched or desperate. What would these people have died from? (usually
        > causes of death listed are things like cholera, smallpox, dropsy, etc. --
        > even marasmus)
        >
        > Do any of you have any ideas about what these terms might refer to?
        >
        > [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects about
        > the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The high rate of
        > infant and early childhood mortality in the farming villages. Families often
        > had many children, but it was not uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die young.
        > Marasmus among the elderly. Even though farming is a relatively dangerous
        > occupation, I found no references to people dying in agricultural accidents.
        > Of course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
        > news, photos & more.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Helen Fedor
        The Internet has a page for nearly everything. This one has some info that might help: Miserere Mei (Have compassion on me:
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 27, 2007
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          The Internet has a page for nearly everything. This one <http://www.antiquusmorbus.com/> has some info that might help:

          Miserere Mei
          (Have compassion on me: so called from its unhappy torments.) The iliac passion. [Hooper1829].


          Misery
          Great unhappiness; extreme pain of body or mind; wretchedness; distress; woe. [Webster]


          Misire
          A disorder of the liver, mentioned by Avicenna, accompanied with a sense of heaviness, tumor, inflammation, pungent pain, and blackness of the tongue. [Hooper1829].


          Marasmus
          A wasting away of flesh, without fever or apparent disease. [Hooper1829].

          Atrophy. [Dunglison1868].

          A kind of atrophy; a wasting of flesh without fever or apparent disease. The continuous low condition of nutrition as it is caused by bad nourishment or occurs normally in old age. [Appleton1904].

          Malnutrition occurring in infants and young children, caused by an insufficient intake of calories or protein and characterized by thinness, dry skin, poor muscle development, and irritability. In the mid-nineteenth century, specific causes were associated with specific ages: In infants under twelve months old, the causes were believed to be unsuitable food, chronic vomiting, chronic diarrhea, and inherited syphilis. Between one and three years, marasmus was associated with rickets or cancer. After the age of three years, caseous (cheeselike) enlargement of the mesenteric glands (located in the peritoneal fold attaching the small intestine to the body wall) became a given cause of wasting. (See tabes mesenterica.) After the sixth year, chronic pulmonary tuberculosis appeared to be the major cause. Marasmus is now considered to be related to Kwashiorkor, a severe protein deficiency. [NGSQ1988].

          A progressive wasting of the body, occurring chiefly in young children and associated with insufficient intake or malabsorption of food. [Heritage].

          A condition of chronic undernourishment occurring especially in children and usually caused by a diet deficient in calories and proteins but sometimes by disease (as congenital syphilis) or parasitic infection called also athrepsia. [Merriam-Webster2002].

          H








          >>> "Marianne Petruska" <marianne50614@...> 09/27/07 2:01 PM >>>
          I think you've started another interesting discussion for us.

          Several years ago, at a lecture on Hungarian genealogy, I was told that
          "angina" did NOT mean the same thing in the late 1800s that it means
          today. I'd seen "angina" listed as the cause of death of several children
          as well as for an adult in church records for my paternal ancestors' village
          (in a farming area).
          I can't answer your questions re: the definition of "Misere" -- but I'll
          take a guess that perhaps that was there term for "depression"? You
          mentioned it was the cause of death for adults: Was this listed as the
          cause of death for a widow/widower, a middle-aged woman or an elderly person
          (or all of the above)?

          Perhaps your Latin dictionary can give me a few definitions for other causes
          of death: "Variola rubia", "tussis cum colica", "calida febris", "acensio
          pulmonum" & "hydrosis".

          Having had to learn a certain amount of Latin in school (bless those RC
          nuns!), my guesses are:
          "Variola rubia" might be scarlet fever/virus; "tussis cum colica" may
          be similar to whooping cough; "calida febris" may be a "high fever";
          "acensio pulmonum" possibly rapid heartbeat or enlarged heart or something
          to do with the lungs; "hydrosis" is the stumper. (I know "hyper-hydrosis"
          has to do with excessive sweating, but I doubt that sweating could be a
          cause of death unless it's associated with a fever or viral infection.)

          MARIANNE



          On 9/27/07, Margo Smith <margolane61@...> wrote:
          >
          > The 19th century Catholic church records from the Turiec Valley include
          > some occupations and causes of death. My childhood friend who has the
          > equivalent of an undergraduate degree in Latin, and the Oxford Latin
          > Dictionary are not totally illuminating for a couple of terms:
          >
          > 1) Quaestor (sometimes quaestor mercium). This is a male occupation in a
          > small farming village (e.g., Moskovec) for men from farm families. There
          > may be > 1 per village. Oxford says they are magistrates who performed
          > mainly financial duties. What did they do? Does this mean they were
          > educated, or at least literate? Were they appointed, or elected, or
          > self-selected?
          >
          > 2) Misere. This is a cause of death for adults. Oxford says it was pitiful
          > or wretched or desperate. What would these people have died from? (usually
          > causes of death listed are things like cholera, smallpox, dropsy, etc. --
          > even marasmus)
          >
          > Do any of you have any ideas about what these terms might refer to?
          >
          > [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects about
          > the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The high rate of
          > infant and early childhood mortality in the farming villages. Families often
          > had many children, but it was not uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die young.
          > Marasmus among the elderly. Even though farming is a relatively dangerous
          > occupation, I found no references to people dying in agricultural accidents.
          > Of course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
          > news, photos & more.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marianne Petruska
          *Helen:* Thanks for the website link. Now after having looked at the *Archaic Medical Terms, Diseases and Causes of Death *,* *none of those I asked about
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 27, 2007
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            *Helen:* Thanks for the website link.

            Now after having looked at the "*Archaic Medical Terms, Diseases and Causes
            of Death"*,* *none of those I asked about were there. They probably require
            a Latin dictionary.

            Unless Margo mis-read "*misIre" *(the liver disease) as "misEre" I still
            think the "MisEre" she asked about may have been the term used then/there to
            describe depression. (Or I spent too long a time working with behavioral
            health -- aka: mental health -- care professionals!) There was a reason I
            asked her about the age/sex of the person for whom "misere" was listed as
            the cause of death:

            - *Widow/widower*: Depression over the death of her/his spouse.
            - *Elderly person*: May have survived death[s] of
            spouse/children/siblings & felt s/he was all alone.
            - *Middle-aged woman*: Depression due to/brought on by
            menopause. There was a high infant/child mortality rate in those days. If
            the woman had lost several/all of her children & reached the age where she
            could no longer have any more children, that may have caused her to be
            depressed. (Although my grandmothers weren't doing so, among my other
            female ancestors some were still having children in their mid-40s!)

            Where the deaths were isolated incidents rather than from epidemics
            (cholera, typhus, etc), there probably wasn't a Dr there & the person
            reporting the death told the "symptoms" or illness of the deceased to the
            person *recording* the death info & the recorder just filled in what was
            told.

            It would be interesting to find out how they treated some of the conditions
            for which our Primary Care Physicians refer us to specialists,

            MARIANNE


            On 9/27/07, Helen Fedor <hfed@...> wrote:
            >
            > The Internet has a page for nearly everything. This one <
            > http://www.antiquusmorbus.com/> has some info that might help:
            >
            > Miserere Mei
            > (Have compassion on me: so called from its unhappy torments.) The iliac
            > passion. [Hooper1829].
            >
            >
            > Misery
            > Great unhappiness; extreme pain of body or mind; wretchedness; distress;
            > woe. [Webster]
            >
            >
            > Misire
            > A disorder of the liver, mentioned by Avicenna, accompanied with a sense
            > of heaviness, tumor, inflammation, pungent pain, and blackness of the
            > tongue. [Hooper1829].
            >
            > Marasmus
            > A wasting away of flesh, without fever or apparent disease. [Hooper1829].
            >
            > Atrophy. [Dunglison1868].
            >
            > A kind of atrophy; a wasting of flesh without fever or apparent disease.
            > The continuous low condition of nutrition as it is caused by bad nourishment
            > or occurs normally in old age. [Appleton1904].
            >
            > Malnutrition occurring in infants and young children, caused by an
            > insufficient intake of calories or protein and characterized by thinness,
            > dry skin, poor muscle development, and irritability. In the mid-nineteenth
            > century, specific causes were associated with specific ages: In infants
            > under twelve months old, the causes were believed to be unsuitable food,
            > chronic vomiting, chronic diarrhea, and inherited syphilis. Between one and
            > three years, marasmus was associated with rickets or cancer. After the age
            > of three years, caseous (cheeselike) enlargement of the mesenteric glands
            > (located in the peritoneal fold attaching the small intestine to the body
            > wall) became a given cause of wasting. (See tabes mesenterica.) After the
            > sixth year, chronic pulmonary tuberculosis appeared to be the major cause.
            > Marasmus is now considered to be related to Kwashiorkor, a severe protein
            > deficiency. [NGSQ1988].
            >
            > A progressive wasting of the body, occurring chiefly in young children and
            > associated with insufficient intake or malabsorption of food. [Heritage].
            >
            > A condition of chronic undernourishment occurring especially in children
            > and usually caused by a diet deficient in calories and proteins but
            > sometimes by disease (as congenital syphilis) or parasitic infection called
            > also athrepsia. [Merriam-Webster2002].
            >
            > H
            >
            >
            > >>> "Marianne Petruska" <marianne50614@...<marianne50614%40gmail.com>>
            > 09/27/07 2:01 PM >>>
            > I think you've started another interesting discussion for us.
            >
            > Several years ago, at a lecture on Hungarian genealogy, I was told that
            > "angina" did NOT mean the same thing in the late 1800s that it means
            > today. I'd seen "angina" listed as the cause of death of several children
            > as well as for an adult in church records for my paternal ancestors'
            > village
            > (in a farming area).
            > I can't answer your questions re: the definition of "Misere" -- but I'll
            > take a guess that perhaps that was there term for "depression"? You
            > mentioned it was the cause of death for adults: Was this listed as the
            > cause of death for a widow/widower, a middle-aged woman or an elderly
            > person
            > (or all of the above)?
            >
            > Perhaps your Latin dictionary can give me a few definitions for other
            > causes
            > of death: "Variola rubia", "tussis cum colica", "calida febris", "acensio
            > pulmonum" & "hydrosis".
            >
            > Having had to learn a certain amount of Latin in school (bless those RC
            > nuns!), my guesses are:
            > "Variola rubia" might be scarlet fever/virus; "tussis cum colica" may
            > be similar to whooping cough; "calida febris" may be a "high fever";
            > "acensio pulmonum" possibly rapid heartbeat or enlarged heart or something
            > to do with the lungs; "hydrosis" is the stumper. (I know "hyper-hydrosis"
            > has to do with excessive sweating, but I doubt that sweating could be a
            > cause of death unless it's associated with a fever or viral infection.)
            >
            > MARIANNE
            >
            > On 9/27/07, Margo Smith <margolane61@... <margolane61%40yahoo.com>>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > The 19th century Catholic church records from the Turiec Valley include
            > > some occupations and causes of death. My childhood friend who has the
            > > equivalent of an undergraduate degree in Latin, and the Oxford Latin
            > > Dictionary are not totally illuminating for a couple of terms:
            > >
            > > 1) Quaestor (sometimes quaestor mercium). This is a male occupation in a
            > > small farming village (e.g., Moskovec) for men from farm families. There
            > > may be > 1 per village. Oxford says they are magistrates who performed
            > > mainly financial duties. What did they do? Does this mean they were
            > > educated, or at least literate? Were they appointed, or elected, or
            > > self-selected?
            > >
            > > 2) Misere. This is a cause of death for adults. Oxford says it was
            > pitiful
            > > or wretched or desperate. What would these people have died from?
            > (usually
            > > causes of death listed are things like cholera, smallpox, dropsy, etc.
            > --
            > > even marasmus)
            > >
            > > Do any of you have any ideas about what these terms might refer to?
            > >
            > > [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects about
            > > the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The high rate of
            > > infant and early childhood mortality in the farming villages. Families
            > often
            > > had many children, but it was not uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die
            > young.
            > > Marasmus among the elderly. Even though farming is a relatively
            > dangerous
            > > occupation, I found no references to people dying in agricultural
            > accidents.
            > > Of course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
            > mail,
            > > news, photos & more.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • J Michutka
            ... The records for the time period when my grandfather was born (1891) were well-kept, and a child s death was recorded not only in the death records but also
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 27, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              On Sep 27, 2007, at 12:54 PM, Margo Smith wrote:

              > [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects
              > about the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The
              > high rate of infant and early childhood mortality in the farming
              > villages. Families often had many children, but it was not
              > uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die young. Marasmus among the elderly.

              The records for the time period when my grandfather was born (1891)
              were well-kept, and a child's death was recorded not only in the
              death records but also in the "notes" column of their baptismal
              record. I thought I was seeing a lot of child deaths, so I simply
              counted--exactly 50 % of the babies baptized in 1891 and 1892 in that
              village died before their 5th birthdays. But I don't think it was
              that bad every year.

              Also, some families had a much higher child mortality rate than
              others in the same time period; no way to easily tell if it was
              genetic, economic, or what.

              > Even though farming is a relatively dangerous occupation, I found
              > no references to people dying in agricultural accidents. Of
              > course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]


              It seems to just vary with the record keeper. Some of them can
              write a sentence or a phrase that evokes a whole story: "found
              frozen in the forest, eaten by wolves" (really!); "killed by train".
              Others write nothing. I wonder if the apparent lack of agricultural
              accidents is due to a lack of mechanical agricultural equipment?
              Just a thought, 'cause when I think of agricultural accidents,
              there's almost always machinery involved. Unless a tree being felled
              lands on someone.

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@...

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mark Sabol
              Angina, originally referring to pain in the throat/chest area, once meant what we today call tonsillitis; that s why it occurs so often as the cause of death
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 27, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Angina, originally referring to pain in the throat/chest area, once meant what we today call tonsillitis; that's why it occurs so often as the cause of death for children. I suspect "misere" referred simply to poverty/slow starvation. Your "hydrosis" may be what people about a century ago called dropsy, a severe accumulation of fluid in the tissue. This often indicated kidney damage, which was the real cause of death. Such kidney damage was a common result of many illnesses; so a person might have a bout with some disease and recover, only to succumb a few weeks later to the kidney damage the first disease wrought.

                Mark Sabol

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Marianne Petruska
                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:01 PM
                Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Slovak-World] 19th cent. occupation/cause of death


                I think you've started another interesting discussion for us.

                Several years ago, at a lecture on Hungarian genealogy, I was told that
                "angina" did NOT mean the same thing in the late 1800s that it means
                today. I'd seen "angina" listed as the cause of death of several children
                as well as for an adult in church records for my paternal ancestors' village
                (in a farming area).
                I can't answer your questions re: the definition of "Misere" -- but I'll
                take a guess that perhaps that was there term for "depression"? You
                mentioned it was the cause of death for adults: Was this listed as the
                cause of death for a widow/widower, a middle-aged woman or an elderly person
                (or all of the above)?

                Perhaps your Latin dictionary can give me a few definitions for other causes
                of death: "Variola rubia", "tussis cum colica", "calida febris", "acensio
                pulmonum" & "hydrosis".

                Having had to learn a certain amount of Latin in school (bless those RC
                nuns!), my guesses are:
                "Variola rubia" might be scarlet fever/virus; "tussis cum colica" may
                be similar to whooping cough; "calida febris" may be a "high fever";
                "acensio pulmonum" possibly rapid heartbeat or enlarged heart or something
                to do with the lungs; "hydrosis" is the stumper. (I know "hyper-hydrosis"
                has to do with excessive sweating, but I doubt that sweating could be a
                cause of death unless it's associated with a fever or viral infection.)

                MARIANNE

                On 9/27/07, Margo Smith <margolane61@...> wrote:
                >
                > The 19th century Catholic church records from the Turiec Valley include
                > some occupations and causes of death. My childhood friend who has the
                > equivalent of an undergraduate degree in Latin, and the Oxford Latin
                > Dictionary are not totally illuminating for a couple of terms:
                >
                > 1) Quaestor (sometimes quaestor mercium). This is a male occupation in a
                > small farming village (e.g., Moskovec) for men from farm families. There
                > may be > 1 per village. Oxford says they are magistrates who performed
                > mainly financial duties. What did they do? Does this mean they were
                > educated, or at least literate? Were they appointed, or elected, or
                > self-selected?
                >
                > 2) Misere. This is a cause of death for adults. Oxford says it was pitiful
                > or wretched or desperate. What would these people have died from? (usually
                > causes of death listed are things like cholera, smallpox, dropsy, etc. --
                > even marasmus)
                >
                > Do any of you have any ideas about what these terms might refer to?
                >
                > [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects about
                > the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The high rate of
                > infant and early childhood mortality in the farming villages. Families often
                > had many children, but it was not uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die young.
                > Marasmus among the elderly. Even though farming is a relatively dangerous
                > occupation, I found no references to people dying in agricultural accidents.
                > Of course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
                > news, photos & more.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Margo Smith
                I agree, Julie. My husband s great grandmother is said to have died this way in 1914: she was carrying a heavy sack of potatoes on a path next to the Turiec
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I agree, Julie. My husband's great grandmother is said to have died this way in 1914: she was carrying a heavy sack of potatoes on a path next to the Turiec River. She became tired and leaned against the fence to rest. The fence collapsed. She fell into the river and drowned. From my perspective, this is an agricultural situation, but her death certificate (which I have not yet located) might say simply that she drowned.

                  J Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                  On Sep 27, 2007, at 12:54 PM, Margo Smith wrote:

                  > [This is tangential to my question, but there are several aspects
                  > about the causes of death that really grabbed my attention. The
                  > high rate of infant and early childhood mortality in the farming
                  > villages. Families often had many children, but it was not
                  > uncommon for all but 2 or 3 to die young. Marasmus among the elderly.

                  The records for the time period when my grandfather was born (1891)
                  were well-kept, and a child's death was recorded not only in the
                  death records but also in the "notes" column of their baptismal
                  record. I thought I was seeing a lot of child deaths, so I simply
                  counted--exactly 50 % of the babies baptized in 1891 and 1892 in that
                  village died before their 5th birthdays. But I don't think it was
                  that bad every year.

                  Also, some families had a much higher child mortality rate than
                  others in the same time period; no way to easily tell if it was
                  genetic, economic, or what.

                  > Even though farming is a relatively dangerous occupation, I found
                  > no references to people dying in agricultural accidents. Of
                  > course, perhaps my reaction is cultural.]

                  It seems to just vary with the record keeper. Some of them can
                  write a sentence or a phrase that evokes a whole story: "found
                  frozen in the forest, eaten by wolves" (really!); "killed by train".
                  Others write nothing. I wonder if the apparent lack of agricultural
                  accidents is due to a lack of mechanical agricultural equipment?
                  Just a thought, 'cause when I think of agricultural accidents,
                  there's almost always machinery involved. Unless a tree being felled
                  lands on someone.

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@...

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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