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Re: word for "father"

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  • J Michutka
    As long as you re talking about words for daddy , Martin, exactly what grammatical form is otci , which is what I ve heard a (grown) cousin call her father?
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 30, 2007
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      As long as you're talking about words for "daddy", Martin, exactly
      what grammatical form is "otci", which is what I've heard a (grown)
      cousin call her father? Not nominative, since that's "otec"; and I'm
      not seeing the vocative case discussed in my textbooks; is it an old
      vocative? A diminutive of some sort? (but my impression of the
      masculine diminutive is that it often ends in -o, eg my little cousin
      Martinko, Rudo from Rudolf, Peto from Peter, the word njan'ko
      mentioned earlier, etc)

      Julie Michutka
      jmm@...


      >> There is a Rusyn term equivalent to "Dad", which is
      >>
      >> njan'o (phon: NYUN-yoh)
      >>
      >> and its diminutive ("Daddy"),
      >>
      >> njan'ko
    • Helen Fedor
      Here s something a tad different. In the Croatian (Slavonia) folk dancing song Pjevano kolo , one of the verses goes Ej, oce nana bogatoga zeta (Ej, mama
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 30, 2007
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        Here's something a tad different. In the Croatian (Slavonia) folk dancing song "Pjevano kolo", one of the verses goes "Ej, oce nana bogatoga zeta" (Ej, mama would like a rich son-in-law). I checked the dictionary and it's definitely "mother", taken, it says, from Turkish.

        H




        >>> "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...> 08/30/07 12:45 PM >>>
        > There is a Rusyn term equivalent to "Dad", which is
        >
        > njan'o (phon: NYUN-yoh)
        >
        > and its diminutive ("Daddy"),
        >
        > njan'ko
        >
        > If this is the term you used, maybe you are Rusyn. I've never heard
        > of this word in any dialect of Slovak.

        Just came across this looking for something else. It's not as common
        today, but it does occur in older Slovak literature and even in the
        grade school primer (probably copied over and over again from who
        knows when). I don't know about all the dialects, but I'd assume that
        it cannot have disappeared completely. It is sometimes used as a
        man's nickname among the Slovaks.

        In a broader picture, it's ancient Indo-European (if not older), not
        even merely Slavic; one of those (now often children's) words created
        by repeating the same syllable, the second one of which was often
        subsequently modified (English: mummy, daddy, baby, yum-yum, the words
        for "defecate/feces," British: geegee). _n~an~a_ is historically
        related to the English _nanny_. I wouldn't be surprised if versions
        of _n~an~a_ could be found, at least regionally, in many if not all
        the Slavic languages, and in many others in Europe.


        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
      • Martin Votruba
        ... A) One of the words for father has become _oco_ [otso]. It developed (the nominative was back-formed) from the case forms of _otec_ that lose the -e-
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 30, 2007
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          > what grammatical form is "otci", which is what I've heard a (grown)
          > cousin call her father?

          A) One of the words for "father" has become _oco_ [otso]. It
          developed (the nominative was back-formed) from the case forms of
          _otec_ that lose the -e- (otca [otsa], otcovi [otsovi]).

          B) While Slovak does not have the vocative, people often modify words
          when addressing someone. -i is one such common modification,
          especially with women's names: Marti (Marta), Evi (Eva). That's what
          you've heard with _oco_. Another thing that people sometimes do is
          that they use a diminutive of someone's name when addressing her/him,
          while they use the standard version when talking about her/him: "Ahoj,
          Joz~ko!" and "Joz~o pris~iel."


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Caye Caswick
          Anyone remember Oche Nash? (big smile here) Caye ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 30, 2007
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            Anyone remember Oche Nash?

            (big smile here)


            Caye


            --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:

            > > what grammatical form is "otci", which is what
            > I've heard a (grown)
            > > cousin call her father?
            >
            > A) One of the words for "father" has become _oco_
            > [otso]. It
            > developed (the nominative was back-formed) from the
            > case forms of
            > _otec_ that lose the -e- (otca [otsa], otcovi
            > [otsovi]).
            >
            > B) While Slovak does not have the vocative, people
            > often modify words
            > when addressing someone. -i is one such common
            > modification,
            > especially with women's names: Marti (Marta), Evi
            > (Eva). That's what
            > you've heard with _oco_. Another thing that people
            > sometimes do is
            > that they use a diminutive of someone's name when
            > addressing her/him,
            > while they use the standard version when talking
            > about her/him: "Ahoj,
            > Joz~ko!" and "Joz~o pris~iel."
            >
            >
            > Martin
            >
            > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            >
            >
            >




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          • Martin Votruba
            ... Just like nanny is a woman, not an old man/grandfather. These ancient family/communal/tribal words have changed their meanings a lot in various ways.
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 30, 2007
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              > dictionary and it's definitely "mother", taken,
              > it says, from Turkish.

              Just like "nanny" is a woman, not an old man/grandfather. These
              ancient family/communal/tribal words have changed their meanings a lot
              in various ways. Some scholars assume that a "daughter," for
              instance, used to mean a "wet nurse" a long time ago, that the word
              for "father" used to mean a provider, not what it means today, etc.
              The link between "nanny" and "granddad/old man" would be either
              "caretaker," or "dopey," or "one that hangs around (the child while
              others go to collect and hunt)." But early meanings of words that are
              so old and common are difficult to determine, there are lots of theories.

              As to a word like that occurring in Turkish, some use such words to
              argue that they've reconstructed a historical relationship between the
              Indo-European, Altaic (including Turkish), and other language
              families. They call that even older language family _Nostratic_.

              Still, _nana_can be a borrowing in Croatian, or the "native" word
              could have shifted its meaning under foreign influence, or it could
              have developed that meaning independently. The same word has occurred
              with the meaning "father" in Czech, Lusatian, has been used to address
              either parent in Polish...

              It cannot be pinned down to one language and meaning as its original
              source.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            • J Michutka
              Dakujem Vam za informaciu, Martin. It s printed off and will be taped into an appropriate place in one of my Slovak textbooks. I wondered, shortly after
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 30, 2007
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                Dakujem Vam za informaciu, Martin. It's printed off and will be
                taped into an appropriate place in one of my Slovak textbooks.

                I wondered, shortly after sending off my question, whether I had the
                spelling right (otci vs. oci); and now I know that, too!

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@...


                On Aug 30, 2007, at 3:04 PM, Martin Votruba wrote:

                >> what grammatical form is "otci", which is what I've heard a (grown)
                >> cousin call her father?
                >
                > A) One of the words for "father" has become _oco_ [otso]. <snip>
              • gardnerlyn
                Greetings! This is my first post-reply in this wonderful group of people. I have been a member for sometime, just listening to people talk about my ancesterial
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 1, 2007
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                  Greetings! This is my first post-reply in this wonderful group of
                  people. I have been a member for sometime, just listening to people
                  talk about my ancesterial homeland. I am a second generation
                  American. My Grandmother came over with her five year old sister.
                  Just the two of them, my Grandmother was 13. I was never allowed to
                  speak Slovak, Grandma would always say "You speak American!!!"
                  My Dad always called my Grandfather Njan'o. I was nice to finally see
                  the word in print. I have learned a lot from this group and I thank
                  you. I have a silver needle holder that says Uniontown Pa. on it and
                  now I have a connection. Happy Feast Day to you. Linda (Zekany)Zelms


                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > > There is a Rusyn term equivalent to "Dad", which is
                  > >
                  > > njan'o (phon: NYUN-yoh)
                  > >
                  > > and its diminutive ("Daddy"),
                  > >
                  > > njan'ko
                  > >
                  > > If this is the term you used, maybe you are Rusyn. I've never
                  heard
                  > > of this word in any dialect of Slovak.
                  >
                  > Just came across this looking for something else. It's not as
                  common
                  > today, but it does occur in older Slovak literature and even in the
                  > grade school primer (probably copied over and over again from who
                  > knows when). I don't know about all the dialects, but I'd assume
                  that
                  > it cannot have disappeared completely. It is sometimes used as a
                  > man's nickname among the Slovaks.
                  >
                  > In a broader picture, it's ancient Indo-European (if not older), not
                  > even merely Slavic; one of those (now often children's) words
                  created
                  > by repeating the same syllable, the second one of which was often
                  > subsequently modified (English: mummy, daddy, baby, yum-yum, the
                  words
                  > for "defecate/feces," British: geegee). _n~an~a_ is historically
                  > related to the English _nanny_. I wouldn't be surprised if versions
                  > of _n~an~a_ could be found, at least regionally, in many if not all
                  > the Slavic languages, and in many others in Europe.
                  >
                  >
                  > Martin
                  >
                  > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                  >
                • LongJohn Wayne
                  Welcome to the club, Linda! ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 18, 2007
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                    Welcome to the club, Linda!

                    --- gardnerlyn <JZELMS@...> wrote:

                    > Greetings! This is my first post-reply in this
                    > wonderful group of
                    > people. I have been a member for sometime, just
                    > listening to people
                    > talk about my ancesterial homeland. I am a second
                    > generation
                    > American. My Grandmother came over with her five
                    > year old sister.
                    > Just the two of them, my Grandmother was 13. I was
                    > never allowed to
                    > speak Slovak, Grandma would always say "You speak
                    > American!!!"
                    > My Dad always called my Grandfather Njan'o. I was
                    > nice to finally see
                    > the word in print. I have learned a lot from this
                    > group and I thank
                    > you. I have a silver needle holder that says
                    > Uniontown Pa. on it and
                    > now I have a connection. Happy Feast Day to you.
                    > Linda (Zekany)Zelms
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin
                    > Votruba" <votrubam@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > There is a Rusyn term equivalent to "Dad", which
                    > is
                    > > >
                    > > > njan'o (phon: NYUN-yoh)
                    > > >
                    > > > and its diminutive ("Daddy"),
                    > > >
                    > > > njan'ko
                    > > >
                    > > > If this is the term you used, maybe you are
                    > Rusyn. I've never
                    > heard
                    > > > of this word in any dialect of Slovak.
                    > >
                    > > Just came across this looking for something else.
                    > It's not as
                    > common
                    > > today, but it does occur in older Slovak
                    > literature and even in the
                    > > grade school primer (probably copied over and over
                    > again from who
                    > > knows when). I don't know about all the dialects,
                    > but I'd assume
                    > that
                    > > it cannot have disappeared completely. It is
                    > sometimes used as a
                    > > man's nickname among the Slovaks.
                    > >
                    > > In a broader picture, it's ancient Indo-European
                    > (if not older), not
                    > > even merely Slavic; one of those (now often
                    > children's) words
                    > created
                    > > by repeating the same syllable, the second one of
                    > which was often
                    > > subsequently modified (English: mummy, daddy,
                    > baby, yum-yum, the
                    > words
                    > > for "defecate/feces," British: geegee). _n~an~a_
                    > is historically
                    > > related to the English _nanny_. I wouldn't be
                    > surprised if versions
                    > > of _n~an~a_ could be found, at least regionally,
                    > in many if not all
                    > > the Slavic languages, and in many others in
                    > Europe.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Martin
                    > >
                    > > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >




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