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Re: [Slovak-World] Re: 1767-1772 Urbarial Register

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  • Margo Smith
    Good morning, Martin -- I am speechless with delight to see your message in which you mention that you replied to my question months ago about the fractions.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 29, 2007
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      Good morning, Martin --

      I am speechless with delight to see your message in which you mention that you replied to my question months ago about the fractions. The gremlins of the internet must have snatched it before it got to me. Actually, I had been quite disappointed to receive not a single message about those pesky fractions. The knowledge in this group is vast and I found it hard to believe that no one knew about the fractions. Now, let me see if I can find your original message in the SW archives.

      Margo

      Andrea Vangor <drav@...> wrote:
      Thank you, Martin. Well, if taxing the villagers with urbarial holdings on behalf of the Crown was a goal of the Empress, it was not achieved in her lifetime. Did that start after the upheavals of 1848? There seems to have been quite a gap between the policy-makers in Vienna and the local powers in Hungary. Could you say that in general, more of the peasantry had been brought into the central taxation system by 1869?

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Martin Votruba
      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 10:08 PM
      Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: 1767-1772 Urbarial Register

      > But were urbarial holdings taxed from Vienna? The serfs holding
      > them were not paying taxes to the Crown, but dues to the overlord.

      I responded to Margo's question about the meaning of the fractions.
      I'm addressing the above only to the degree it may have confused my
      answer to that query. A goal of Maria Theresa's urbarial survey was
      to tax the Kingdom's farmers directly and in a uniform manner -- which
      didn't preclude the landlords from excising their taxes, provisions,
      and robota from them at the same time -- and hopefully to start taxing
      the noblemen who weren't paying any taxes to anyone. I will not
      comment on the rest of your post, Andrea.

      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu

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    • Margo Smith
      Yes, Carl, absolutely. However, on the records I have, the robota requirement was not expressed in a whole number of days, but in a fraction. That did not
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 29, 2007
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        Yes, Carl, absolutely. However, on the records I have, the robota requirement was not expressed in a whole number of days, but in a fraction. That did not make sense to me.

        Thank you, Martin, for your message about the fractions concerning agricultural produce. I found it.

        Margo

        Carl Kotlarchik <kkotlarc@...> wrote:
        The robota for a serf with draft animals was shorter than for those
        serfs that did not own any because of the increased amount of work
        that could be done with animals.
        Carl
        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Margo Smith <margolane61@...>
        wrote:

        > Also, what does the robota (labor with draft animal) requirement
        mean? Why isn't a serf's robota expressed in a whole number of
        days? That also varies by village. Example:
        > Thank you for helping me clarify these mysteries.
        >
        > Margo
        >
        >
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      • Martin Votruba
        ... The same applied to robota, Margo. The fractions you quoted did not stand for days. They represented the sizes of those fields that were to become the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 29, 2007
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          > about the fractions concerning agricultural produce.

          The same applied to robota, Margo.

          The fractions you quoted did not stand for days. They represented the
          sizes of those "fields" that were to become the basis for the
          calculation of the number of days of work required by the noblemen.
          Other numbers represented the sizes of those "fields" that were to be
          the bases for the calculation of how much of those other things the
          noblemen could collect.

          The Kingdom had almost no such regulations. It differed from village
          to village, often based on the hundreds-of-years-old original contract
          between the nobleman and the settler villagers he invited, although
          some requirements, especially robota, were customarily quite similar:
          one day a week with oxen, two days a week without them. Vienna
          decided that that should change, that the amount of robota should
          depend on the acreage of the given farmer's relevant "fields."

          Part of Vienna's (failed) plan was to standardize and regulate
          centrally how much money, provisions, and labor the noblemen could
          exact, and then tax the noblemen on that. That's why many noblemen
          were eager to see the farmers deceive the surveyors and have their
          farms registered as small as possible. As it turned out, the noblemen
          defied paying taxes for another century, and Vienna blocked the
          Kingdom's trade and industrialization in return.

          That's an important reason why, once they were joined together in new
          countries, Slovenia and the Czech lands, formerly inside "Austria,"
          were more industrialized and wealthier than their new partners Croatia
          and Slovakia, formerly inside the Kingdom of H., something that has
          had its consequences through the present day.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Martin Votruba
          ... The Kingdom wasn t regulated and run as efficiently as today s Europe and the US. There were wars, revolutions, attempts, failures, renewed efforts, etc.
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 29, 2007
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            > if taxing the villagers with urbarial holdings on behalf
            > of the Crown was a goal of the Empress, it was not achieved
            > in her lifetime.

            The Kingdom wasn't regulated and run as efficiently as today's Europe
            and the US. There were wars, revolutions, attempts, failures, renewed
            efforts, etc. Direct and "all-encompassing" taxation of the Kingdom's
            farmers by Vienna was introduced in 1699. Of course,
            "all-encompassing" was the decree, not what followed.

            1699 --> Vienna started trying as soon as the Turks were driven out
            and the Habsburgs A) gained (relative) control over the whole
            historical territory of the Kingdom and B) didn't need to worry any
            more that the Kingdom's noblemen would seek to get Royal Hungary (i.e.
            what was technically under the Habsburgs during the Turkish expansion,
            mostly today's Slovakia) under Turkish suzerainty the way Transylvania
            operated, if the Habsburgs meddled with the Kingdom too much.

            Within a few years of the 1699 decree, for instance, the massive,
            country-wide Rakoczi uprising began (1704-1711), so here's but one
            hint of how we need to erase from our minds the approach that Vienna's
            taxation of the Kingdom's farmers worked the way taxation does now --
            a tax bill is passed and what follows is its uniform application until
            the law is changed -- an assumption that Vienna's taxation of the
            farmers had an obvious beginning, straightforward structure, and
            sustained application over place and time. It didn't. Taxation was
            partly non-existent, partly disorganized, unsystematic in the 18th
            century from our perspective.


            Martin

            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
          • Margo Smith
            Thank you very much, Martin. Now I am looking at my data in a new light. This urbarial register also included a document written in an archaic Slovak (when
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 30, 2007
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              Thank you very much, Martin. Now I am looking at my data in a new light.

              This urbarial register also included a document written in an archaic Slovak (when most of the materials are in Latin). A small group of villagers were interviewed about the village and their names appear at the end of the document (often with X because they could not write their names). There were 9 questions (the same for all villages so far as I can tell), along with the answers. What are the questions?

              Margo

              Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:
              > about the fractions concerning agricultural produce.

              The same applied to robota, Margo.

              The fractions you quoted did not stand for days. They represented the
              sizes of those "fields" that were to become the basis for the
              calculation of the number of days of work required by the noblemen.
              Other numbers represented the sizes of those "fields" that were to be
              the bases for the calculation of how much of those other things the
              noblemen could collect.

              The Kingdom had almost no such regulations. It differed from village
              to village, often based on the hundreds-of-years-old original contract
              between the nobleman and the settler villagers he invited, although
              some requirements, especially robota, were customarily quite similar:
              one day a week with oxen, two days a week without them. Vienna
              decided that that should change, that the amount of robota should
              depend on the acreage of the given farmer's relevant "fields."

              Part of Vienna's (failed) plan was to standardize and regulate
              centrally how much money, provisions, and labor the noblemen could
              exact, and then tax the noblemen on that. That's why many noblemen
              were eager to see the farmers deceive the surveyors and have their
              farms registered as small as possible. As it turned out, the noblemen
              defied paying taxes for another century, and Vienna blocked the
              Kingdom's trade and industrialization in return.

              That's an important reason why, once they were joined together in new
              countries, Slovenia and the Czech lands, formerly inside "Austria,"
              were more industrialized and wealthier than their new partners Croatia
              and Slovakia, formerly inside the Kingdom of H., something that has
              had its consequences through the present day.

              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu






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            • Margo Smith
              Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Martin Votruba wrote: the 1767-1772 Urbarial Register [...] ... Roughly -- Does the village
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 30, 2007
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                Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

                Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote: > the 1767-1772 Urbarial Register [...]
                > A small group
                > provided the answers for their village. Does anyone
                > know what the questions are?

                Roughly -- Does the village have an urbarium; if not, is there a
                contract or how does it meet its duties; what are those duties; what
                are the (economic) characteristics of the village (advantages,
                disadvantages, how do people sustain themselves); communal pastures,
                fields; labor (robota) for the landlord(s); payments to and provisions
                for the landlord(s); abandoned estates; bonded/free farmers?

                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu






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              • Martin Votruba
                ... The questions were normally answered by the village council for the whole village, not by each individual farmer. ... I answered this, too, Margo, in a
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 30, 2007
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                  > A small group of villagers were interviewed about the village
                  > and their names appear at the end of the document

                  The questions were normally answered by the village council for the
                  whole village, not by each individual farmer.

                  > What are the questions?

                  I answered this, too, Margo, in a separate post in this thread.


                  Martin

                  votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                • Margo Smith
                  Yes, thank you. I did find it. That this group was normally the village council is very interesting. So I now have a couple of village council members in my
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 30, 2007
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                    Yes, thank you. I did find it. That this group was normally the village council is very interesting. So I now have a couple of village council members in my group.

                    Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote: > A small group of villagers were interviewed about the village
                    > and their names appear at the end of the document

                    The questions were normally answered by the village council for the
                    whole village, not by each individual farmer.

                    > What are the questions?

                    I answered this, too, Margo, in a separate post in this thread.

                    Martin

                    votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu






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