Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church

Expand Messages
  • Sinbad Schwartz
    ... sermons ... Following ... The ... in ... Church
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 7, 2007
      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
      > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services. The
      > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language called
      > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
      sermons
      > that are in Slovak.
      >
      > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied the
      > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
      > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
      Following
      > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
      > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many Rusyns
      > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity then).
      The
      > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
      > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity was
      > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
      >
      > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek Catholic
      > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church Slovakizes
      > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of Rusyn
      in
      > church.
      >
      > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the Rusyn
      > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
      > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
      > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
      >
      > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
      Church
      > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
      > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to use
      > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church hierarchy.
      >
      > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia that
      > is taught in several schools.
      >
      >
      > Martin
      >
      > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
      >
    • Sinbad Schwartz
      Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a schlep of my fingers. In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in Kamienka and the other
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 7, 2007
        Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a "schlep" of my fingers.
        In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in
        Kamienka and the other in Bardejov off Stara Mesto. I can't swear to
        it but I thought the homilies were in Rusyn. Is this just an attempt
        to get official recognition of Rusyn by the church or to require
        Rusyn be used in all GC churches?

        My relatives made a point of saying the Mass in Bardejov would be
        in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does this mean that Mass is now normally
        said in Slovak in the Slovak GC churches. GC Mass is now said in
        English in this country.

        RU

        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
        <sandman6294@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
        > > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services.
        The
        > > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language
        called
        > > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
        > sermons
        > > that are in Slovak.
        > >
        > > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied
        the
        > > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
        > > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
        > Following
        > > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
        > > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many
        Rusyns
        > > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity
        then).
        > The
        > > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
        > > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity
        was
        > > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
        > >
        > > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek
        Catholic
        > > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church
        Slovakizes
        > > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of
        Rusyn
        > in
        > > church.
        > >
        > > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the
        Rusyn
        > > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
        > > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
        > > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
        > >
        > > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
        > Church
        > > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
        > > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to
        use
        > > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church
        hierarchy.
        > >
        > > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia
        that
        > > is taught in several schools.
        > >
        > >
        > > Martin
        > >
        > > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
        > >
        >
      • Gergely
        It may have changed very recently, but the last time I went to Easter High Mass in Bradenville, about three or four years ago, I believe a portion was still in
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 8, 2007
          It may have changed very recently, but the last time I went to Easter High Mass in Bradenville, about three or four years ago, I believe a portion was still in Rusyn.

          Jack Gergely

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sinbad Schwartz
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:18 AM
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church


          Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a "schlep" of my fingers.
          In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in
          Kamienka and the other in Bardejov off Stara Mesto. I can't swear to
          it but I thought the homilies were in Rusyn. Is this just an attempt
          to get official recognition of Rusyn by the church or to require
          Rusyn be used in all GC churches?

          My relatives made a point of saying the Mass in Bardejov would be
          in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does this mean that Mass is now normally
          said in Slovak in the Slovak GC churches. GC Mass is now said in
          English in this country.

          RU

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
          <sandman6294@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
          > > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services.
          The
          > > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language
          called
          > > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
          > sermons
          > > that are in Slovak.
          > >
          > > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied
          the
          > > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
          > > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
          > Following
          > > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
          > > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many
          Rusyns
          > > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity
          then).
          > The
          > > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
          > > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity
          was
          > > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
          > >
          > > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek
          Catholic
          > > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church
          Slovakizes
          > > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of
          Rusyn
          > in
          > > church.
          > >
          > > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the
          Rusyn
          > > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
          > > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
          > > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
          > >
          > > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
          > Church
          > > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
          > > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to
          use
          > > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church
          hierarchy.
          > >
          > > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia
          that
          > > is taught in several schools.
          > >
          > >
          > > Martin
          > >
          > > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
          > >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • amiak27
          I was in Sulyn (Sulin) for the second and third days of Christmas 2006 and, when I asked about the language, the famly told me the priest is Slovak and speaks
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 8, 2007
            I was in Sulyn (Sulin) for the second and third days of Christmas 2006
            and, when I asked about the language, the famly told me the priest is
            Slovak and speaks Slovak, yet some of the songs were in Slovak and
            some were in Rusyn.

            Ron

            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
            <sandman6294@...> wrote:
            >
            > Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a "schlep" of my fingers.
            > In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in
            > Kamienka and the other in Bardejov off Stara Mesto. I can't swear to
            > it but I thought the homilies were in Rusyn. Is this just an attempt
            > to get official recognition of Rusyn by the church or to require
            > Rusyn be used in all GC churches?
            >
            > My relatives made a point of saying the Mass in Bardejov would be
            > in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does this mean that Mass is now normally
            > said in Slovak in the Slovak GC churches. GC Mass is now said in
            > English in this country.
            >
            > RU
            >
            > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
            > <sandman6294@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
            > > > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services.
            > The
            > > > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language
            > called
            > > > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
            > > sermons
            > > > that are in Slovak.
            > > >
            > > > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied
            > the
            > > > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
            > > > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
            > > Following
            > > > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
            > > > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many
            > Rusyns
            > > > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity
            > then).
            > > The
            > > > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
            > > > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity
            > was
            > > > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
            > > >
            > > > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek
            > Catholic
            > > > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church
            > Slovakizes
            > > > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of
            > Rusyn
            > > in
            > > > church.
            > > >
            > > > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the
            > Rusyn
            > > > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
            > > > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
            > > > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
            > > >
            > > > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
            > > Church
            > > > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
            > > > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to
            > use
            > > > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church
            > hierarchy.
            > > >
            > > > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia
            > that
            > > > is taught in several schools.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Martin
            > > >
            > > > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Martin Votruba
            ... The way I read the Rusyn activists Charter 2007, RU, it s your first option. There are GC parishes with a majority that register Slovak ethnicity, so
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 8, 2007
              > Is this just an attempt to get official recognition of Rusyn
              > by the church or to require Rusyn be used in all GC churches?

              The way I read the Rusyn activists' Charter 2007, RU, it's your first
              option. There are GC parishes with a majority that register Slovak
              ethnicity, so it's not likely that the activists would want to
              interfere with their preferences.

              > the Mass in Bardejov would be in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does
              > this mean that Mass is now normally said in Slovak in the
              > Slovak GC churches.

              The Rusyn activists have indicated that they're not targeting Church
              Slavic used for liturgy. However, ASFAIK, Church Slavic has been
              replaced by Slovak in at least some parishes. The activists would
              probably (my guess) settle initially for liturgy in Church Slavic, and
              the rest of the service in Rusyn. Their main gripe is with the GC
              Church hierarchy, which apparently -- some Rusyns in Slovakia charge
              -- does not merely suffer from a lack of clergy who speak Rusyn, but
              actually discourages those clergymen who'd be ready to use it.

              Charter 2007 was released 4 weeks before the formal inauguration of
              Canadian academic Paul Magocsi's history of the Rusyns in Presov later
              this month. The book is in Slovak.

              Quite inexcusably, Charter 2007 opens with a charge based on a false
              claim. It notes that the current "_Slovak_ GC Church" has had that
              designation since 1963 although its origins are Rusyn (they are), and
              blames it on one clergyman's decision in the Vatican. But the Church
              does not use _Slovak_ as an attribute. Its name is the ethnically
              neutral "Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia." Charter 2007 was
              released in Slovakia by a branch of an organization based in and
              sponsored from Canada. I wonder whether the error may have something
              to do with back-translation. I've seen numerous instances when the
              names of organizations called "XYZ na Slovensku" were translated to
              English as the "Slovak XYZ," which would then translate back (wrongly)
              as "Slovenske XYZ."


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            • Sinbad Schwartz
              ... Thanks Martin. Do you have an URL for a Charter 2007 site? ... A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar is why I hesitate to communicate frequently
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 11, 2007
                --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
                wrote:
                > Charter 2007 was released 4 weeks before the formal inauguration of
                > Canadian academic Paul Magocsi's history of the Rusyns in Presov
                >later this month. The book is in Slovak.

                Thanks Martin. Do you have an URL for a Charter 2007 site?

                >I've seen numerous instances when the
                > names of organizations called "XYZ na Slovensku" were translated to
                > English as the "Slovak XYZ," which would then translate back (wrongly)
                > as "Slovenske XYZ."

                A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar is why I hesitate to
                communicate frequently in Rusyn or Slovak with my relatives in
                Slovakia. Once I get beyond my rudimentary knowledge of early 20th
                century Rusyn I most probably would be writing gibberish to them.

                RU
              • Martin Votruba
                ... Here it is, RU: www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html ... This is not that. The people who do that have difficulty understanding what they read,
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 12, 2007
                  > an URL for a Charter 2007 site?

                  Here it is, RU:

                  www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html


                  > A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar

                  This is not that. The people who do that have difficulty
                  understanding what they read, so to say. The phrases "a tourist in
                  America" and "an American tourist" do not mean the same thing in
                  English, either, but in many such instances people are unable to see
                  that there's a difference (they'd imagine that, e.g., "an American
                  park" and "a park in America" mean the same) so they often
                  mistranslate "X na Slovensku" as "a Slovak X" to English not because
                  of grammar but because of how they think (or don't). Those in
                  Slovakia who may have translated Charter 2007 from English to Slovak
                  (if it was indeed drawn up at least partly in Canada or the US) then
                  would have, equally mindlessly, translated back what they saw in
                  English although it constituted a false charge, moreover one that
                  opened the Charter and hoped to sum it up symbolically, against the
                  very institution that was the subject of their complaint.


                  Martin

                  votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                • Dr. Joe Q
                  Dear Martin, The Rusyn identity question has been around since the early 1900s (and probably longer for those who are Rusyn). As I understand it, the Rusyn
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 12, 2007
                    Dear Martin,

                    The Rusyn "identity" question has been around since
                    the early 1900s (and probably longer for those who are
                    Rusyn). As I understand it, the Rusyn (Rus',
                    Ruthenian, Galician, Silesian, Lemko, Bojko, Hucul,
                    etc., etc.) have been a point of discussion and
                    dissension since the end of WW1. There is a faction
                    that claims the Rusyns living in Ukrainia (Romania and
                    former Yugoslavia) are not necessarily Rusyn because
                    than have accepted the identity of the present home
                    country - - - while others claim that these people are
                    still Rusyn.

                    Your colleague Paul Magocsi (U. Toronto) has published
                    volumes on the Rusyn.

                    Do you have anything more to add to Paul's
                    observations?

                    Thanks.

                    Dr. "Q"

                    --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:

                    > > an URL for a Charter 2007 site?
                    >
                    > Here it is, RU:
                    >
                    > www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html
                    >
                    >
                    > > A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar
                    >
                    > This is not that. The people who do that have
                    > difficulty
                    > understanding what they read, so to say. The
                    > phrases "a tourist in
                    > America" and "an American tourist" do not mean the
                    > same thing in
                    > English, either, but in many such instances people
                    > are unable to see
                    > that there's a difference (they'd imagine that,
                    > e.g., "an American
                    > park" and "a park in America" mean the same) so they
                    > often
                    > mistranslate "X na Slovensku" as "a Slovak X" to
                    > English not because
                    > of grammar but because of how they think (or don't).
                    > Those in
                    > Slovakia who may have translated Charter 2007 from
                    > English to Slovak
                    > (if it was indeed drawn up at least partly in Canada
                    > or the US) then
                    > would have, equally mindlessly, translated back what
                    > they saw in
                    > English although it constituted a false charge,
                    > moreover one that
                    > opened the Charter and hoped to sum it up
                    > symbolically, against the
                    > very institution that was the subject of their
                    > complaint.
                    >
                    >
                    > Martin
                    >
                    > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu



                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
                    Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
                  • Martin Votruba
                    I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One s identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with our parents and soon
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 12, 2007
                      I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One's
                      identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with
                      our parents and soon by others. Once we are a little older, we use
                      that information to begin to decide who we are for ourselves, but then
                      others can still influence us by labeling us in ways different from
                      what we'd rather choose.

                      Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of Hungary acquired a
                      fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as the Western Slavs
                      in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs became Croats).
                      It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because the borders shifted
                      a lot all the time.

                      Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several labels for
                      themselves once they found themselves in Czechoslovakia after 1918
                      (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was clear that those
                      who did saw their identity as different from that of their West Slavic
                      fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the other way round.

                      That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative part of
                      Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the north-eastern part of the
                      earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was annexed by the
                      Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had to call themselves
                      Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was banned).
                      Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had to follow suit.
                      When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity, many Rusyns in
                      Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of fear that their
                      villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or they personally
                      deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those fears were
                      probably unfounded by then).

                      So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left with two options:
                      either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks. Understandably, most
                      chose the second option -- the identity of the majority in the state
                      where they lived rather than the identity that was being forced on the
                      Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had now found
                      themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably worse than being
                      in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.

                      After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence," communism collapsed
                      in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call themselves whatever they
                      want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to persuade the descendants
                      of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before communism to
                      recognize that identity for themselves again. It's an uphill
                      struggle: the decades of Slovak identity, intermarriage, migration
                      have taken their heavy toll on a group of people that was not
                      particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with. Moreover, they've
                      lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the about 500,000 pre-WW
                      II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where Ukraine is still
                      suppressing Rusyn identity.

                      About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and related identities)
                      in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930 census. Immediately
                      after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called themselves Rusyns
                      + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000 in the 1991
                      census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's population actually
                      grew by 60% during the same period. Although activists (and Magocsi)
                      hoped then that the number might quadruple within a decade, it hasn't
                      happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns + about 11,000
                      Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001 census.

                      Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher number of people in
                      Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca. 55,000 + 8,000
                      Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a half of whom
                      identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek Catholics, ca. 220,000
                      plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of 270,000, most of whom
                      Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their Rusyn/East Slavic
                      identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom among the Roman
                      Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.

                      People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                      change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's
                      choice in the past 16 years. But the present choices are among the
                      results of the annihilating grinder through which Rusyn identity was
                      put in the decades between the end of WW II and the collapse of communism.


                      Martin

                      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                    • Dr. Joe Q
                      Dear Martin, Thank you for the clear and succinct explanation. Dr. Q ... ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                        Dear Martin,

                        Thank you for the clear and succinct explanation.

                        Dr. "Q"

                        --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:

                        > I think you gave a very good account of the
                        > situation, Joe. One's
                        > identity is formed by what others tell us what we
                        > are, beginning with
                        > our parents and soon by others. Once we are a
                        > little older, we use
                        > that information to begin to decide who we are for
                        > ourselves, but then
                        > others can still influence us by labeling us in ways
                        > different from
                        > what we'd rather choose.
                        >
                        > Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of
                        > Hungary acquired a
                        > fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as
                        > the Western Slavs
                        > in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs
                        > became Croats).
                        > It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because
                        > the borders shifted
                        > a lot all the time.
                        >
                        > Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several
                        > labels for
                        > themselves once they found themselves in
                        > Czechoslovakia after 1918
                        > (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was
                        > clear that those
                        > who did saw their identity as different from that of
                        > their West Slavic
                        > fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the
                        > other way round.
                        >
                        > That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative
                        > part of
                        > Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the
                        > north-eastern part of the
                        > earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was
                        > annexed by the
                        > Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had
                        > to call themselves
                        > Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was
                        > banned).
                        > Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had
                        > to follow suit.
                        > When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity,
                        > many Rusyns in
                        > Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of
                        > fear that their
                        > villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or
                        > they personally
                        > deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those
                        > fears were
                        > probably unfounded by then).
                        >
                        > So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left
                        > with two options:
                        > either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks.
                        > Understandably, most
                        > chose the second option -- the identity of the
                        > majority in the state
                        > where they lived rather than the identity that was
                        > being forced on the
                        > Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had
                        > now found
                        > themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably
                        > worse than being
                        > in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.
                        >
                        > After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence,"
                        > communism collapsed
                        > in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call
                        > themselves whatever they
                        > want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to
                        > persuade the descendants
                        > of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before
                        > communism to
                        > recognize that identity for themselves again. It's
                        > an uphill
                        > struggle: the decades of Slovak identity,
                        > intermarriage, migration
                        > have taken their heavy toll on a group of people
                        > that was not
                        > particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with.
                        > Moreover, they've
                        > lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the
                        > about 500,000 pre-WW
                        > II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where
                        > Ukraine is still
                        > suppressing Rusyn identity.
                        >
                        > About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and
                        > related identities)
                        > in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930
                        > census. Immediately
                        > after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called
                        > themselves Rusyns
                        > + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000
                        > in the 1991
                        > census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's
                        > population actually
                        > grew by 60% during the same period. Although
                        > activists (and Magocsi)
                        > hoped then that the number might quadruple within a
                        > decade, it hasn't
                        > happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns +
                        > about 11,000
                        > Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001
                        > census.
                        >
                        > Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher
                        > number of people in
                        > Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca.
                        > 55,000 + 8,000
                        > Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a
                        > half of whom
                        > identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek
                        > Catholics, ca. 220,000
                        > plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of
                        > 270,000, most of whom
                        > Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their
                        > Rusyn/East Slavic
                        > identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom
                        > among the Roman
                        > Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.
                        >
                        > People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in
                        > Slovakia, and
                        > change both freely, so it's been up to the activists
                        > and people's
                        > choice in the past 16 years. But the present
                        > choices are among the
                        > results of the annihilating grinder through which
                        > Rusyn identity was
                        > put in the decades between the end of WW II and the
                        > collapse of communism.
                        >
                        >
                        > Martin
                        >
                        > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu



                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                        with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                        http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
                      • konekta@nm.psg.sk
                        People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and change both freely, so it s been up to the activists and people s Dear Martin, I am sure, you
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                          People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                          change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's

                          Dear Martin,
                          I am sure, you meant this to be a rather technical possibility.
                          Ethnicity is something with deep roots and is inherited.
                          To give a grave example; a non Roma would never claim he was Roma.
                          Vladimir


                          _____

                          From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Martin Votruba
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:51 AM
                          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church



                          I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One's
                          identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with
                          our parents and soon by others. Once we are a little older, we use
                          that information to begin to decide who we are for ourselves, but then
                          others can still influence us by labeling us in ways different from
                          what we'd rather choose.

                          Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of Hungary acquired a
                          fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as the Western Slavs
                          in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs became Croats).
                          It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because the borders shifted
                          a lot all the time.

                          Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several labels for
                          themselves once they found themselves in Czechoslovakia after 1918
                          (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was clear that those
                          who did saw their identity as different from that of their West Slavic
                          fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the other way round.

                          That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative part of
                          Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the north-eastern part of the
                          earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was annexed by the
                          Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had to call themselves
                          Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was banned).
                          Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had to follow suit.
                          When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity, many Rusyns in
                          Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of fear that their
                          villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or they personally
                          deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those fears were
                          probably unfounded by then).

                          So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left with two options:
                          either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks. Understandably, most
                          chose the second option -- the identity of the majority in the state
                          where they lived rather than the identity that was being forced on the
                          Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had now found
                          themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably worse than being
                          in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.

                          After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence," communism collapsed
                          in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call themselves whatever they
                          want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to persuade the descendants
                          of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before communism to
                          recognize that identity for themselves again. It's an uphill
                          struggle: the decades of Slovak identity, intermarriage, migration
                          have taken their heavy toll on a group of people that was not
                          particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with. Moreover, they've
                          lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the about 500,000 pre-WW
                          II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where Ukraine is still
                          suppressing Rusyn identity.

                          About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and related identities)
                          in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930 census. Immediately
                          after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called themselves Rusyns
                          + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000 in the 1991
                          census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's population actually
                          grew by 60% during the same period. Although activists (and Magocsi)
                          hoped then that the number might quadruple within a decade, it hasn't
                          happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns + about 11,000
                          Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001 census.

                          Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher number of people in
                          Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca. 55,000 + 8,000
                          Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a half of whom
                          identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek Catholics, ca. 220,000
                          plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of 270,000, most of whom
                          Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their Rusyn/East Slavic
                          identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom among the Roman
                          Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.

                          People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                          change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's
                          choice in the past 16 years. But the present choices are among the
                          results of the annihilating grinder through which Rusyn identity was
                          put in the decades between the end of WW II and the collapse of communism.

                          Martin

                          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Martin Votruba
                          ... There is no disagreement between what you and I say, Vladimir. In the context of that discussion, it is necessary to understand people s legal freedom to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                            > I am sure, you meant this to be a rather technical possibility.
                            > Ethnicity is something with deep roots and is inherited.
                            > To give a grave example; a non Roma would never claim he was Roma.

                            There is no disagreement between what you and I say, Vladimir. In the
                            context of that discussion, it is necessary to understand people's
                            legal freedom to choose and change their registered ethnic identity in
                            Slovakia (which has no bearing on whether they do so and which one
                            they switch to) because it's not the case in some other countries,
                            including in the US -- to identify as a member of any of the
                            AmerIndian peoples and be recognized as such officially, an American
                            citizen needs to meet certain genealogical criteria.

                            Not so in Slovakia where people can switch between Slovak, Rusyn,
                            Hungarian, Romani, and whatever other identities as often as they want
                            to, and get some financial support for their cultural activities from
                            the government if the identity they choose is one of the decreed
                            "traditional regional" ones. As a curiosity, about a dozen people in
                            Slovakia decided to call themselves Eskimos in 2001, especially in the
                            Zilina region. And on a more practical level, a fairly well known
                            Slovak author registered as Croatian after the collapse of communism,
                            which provided him with some financial support for his writing from
                            the government at a time when communist support for the arts went down
                            the drain.


                            Martin

                            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                          • maxine
                            Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you for explaining all this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine Is Michalovce Rusyn also? ... From: Martin
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                              Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you for explaining all this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine

                              Is Michalovce Rusyn also?


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Martin Votruba
                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:50 AM
                              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church


                              I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One's
                              identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with
                              our parents and soon by others. Once we are a little older, we use
                              that information to begin to decide who we are for ourselves, but then
                              others can still influence us by labeling us in ways different from
                              what we'd rather choose.

                              Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of Hungary acquired a
                              fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as the Western Slavs
                              in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs became Croats).
                              It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because the borders shifted
                              a lot all the time.

                              Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several labels for
                              themselves once they found themselves in Czechoslovakia after 1918
                              (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was clear that those
                              who did saw their identity as different from that of their West Slavic
                              fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the other way round.

                              That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative part of
                              Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the north-eastern part of the
                              earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was annexed by the
                              Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had to call themselves
                              Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was banned).
                              Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had to follow suit.
                              When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity, many Rusyns in
                              Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of fear that their
                              villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or they personally
                              deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those fears were
                              probably unfounded by then).

                              So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left with two options:
                              either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks. Understandably, most
                              chose the second option -- the identity of the majority in the state
                              where they lived rather than the identity that was being forced on the
                              Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had now found
                              themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably worse than being
                              in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.

                              After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence," communism collapsed
                              in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call themselves whatever they
                              want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to persuade the descendants
                              of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before communism to
                              recognize that identity for themselves again. It's an uphill
                              struggle: the decades of Slovak identity, intermarriage, migration
                              have taken their heavy toll on a group of people that was not
                              particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with. Moreover, they've
                              lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the about 500,000 pre-WW
                              II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where Ukraine is still
                              suppressing Rusyn identity.

                              About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and related identities)
                              in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930 census. Immediately
                              after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called themselves Rusyns
                              + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000 in the 1991
                              census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's population actually
                              grew by 60% during the same period. Although activists (and Magocsi)
                              hoped then that the number might quadruple within a decade, it hasn't
                              happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns + about 11,000
                              Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001 census.

                              Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher number of people in
                              Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca. 55,000 + 8,000
                              Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a half of whom
                              identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek Catholics, ca. 220,000
                              plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of 270,000, most of whom
                              Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their Rusyn/East Slavic
                              identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom among the Roman
                              Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.

                              People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                              change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's
                              choice in the past 16 years. But the present choices are among the
                              results of the annihilating grinder through which Rusyn identity was
                              put in the decades between the end of WW II and the collapse of communism.

                              Martin

                              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • vchromoho
                              ... this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine ... Hi Maxine, Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin s summary of Rusyns in (Czecho-)Slovakia was
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                                --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "maxine" <maxine96@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you for explaining all
                                this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine
                                >
                                > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?

                                Hi Maxine,

                                Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin's summary of Rusyns
                                in (Czecho-)Slovakia was superb.

                                Before he responds to your question, let me throw out there this
                                very interesting article from the website of the Orthodox parish in
                                Michalovce:
                                http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html

                                It pretty clearly demonstrates that Rusyns were one of the
                                significant ethnic groups who lived in Michalovce and many of the
                                surrounding villages. Unfortunately, according to the 2001 census
                                statistics, that is no longer the case (of course, the descendants
                                of the people who were the local Rusyns are still around; they just
                                don't feel anymore that they are Rusyns). Perhaps Martin will refer
                                to / summarize this article when he responds to your question.

                                Rich
                              • bergschlawiner
                                In the GC church in Bardejov and the Orthodox cathedral in Presov I heard Rusyn spoken during the sermons. The Rusyns have already been publishing a New
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                                  In the GC church in Bardejov and the Orthodox cathedral in Presov I
                                  heard Rusyn spoken during the sermons. The Rusyns have already been
                                  publishing a New Testament in Rusyn. No one is forcing the faithful to
                                  use or pray in Slovak like they are doing in the US with English.
                                • vchromoho
                                  ... been ... to ... You provide two examples, but you assert that No one is forcing the faithful to use or pray in Slovak . Are you certain that this has
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                    --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "bergschlawiner" <KD7EER@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In the GC church in Bardejov and the Orthodox cathedral in Presov I
                                    > heard Rusyn spoken during the sermons. The Rusyns have already
                                    been
                                    > publishing a New Testament in Rusyn. No one is forcing the faithful
                                    to
                                    > use or pray in Slovak like they are doing in the US with English.

                                    You provide two examples, but you assert that "No one is forcing the
                                    faithful to use or pray in Slovak". Are you certain that this has
                                    never happened, anywhere?

                                    As my Greek Catholic Rusyn priest friends in Europe have asked
                                    me, "Why is the Church acting so vehemently against Rusyns?" Frankly,
                                    I didn't have an answer for them, and I too would love to know why.

                                    Ponder, if you will, the sad stories on this website:
                                    http://www.geocities.com/timkovic/

                                    The ONLY time the current bishop of Presov, Babjak, has written to
                                    address the concerns of Rusyns at all has been to denounce and rebut
                                    them:
                                    http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=797
                                    http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=529
                                    Where is the pastoral concern in that? Does he have nothing more to
                                    say to them than "this is all a lie"?
                                  • Caye Caswick
                                    Rich, any chance that comes in an English version? Caye ... http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html ...
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                      Rich, any chance that comes in an English version?


                                      Caye



                                      --- vchromoho <rcuster@...> wrote:

                                      > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "maxine"
                                      > <maxine96@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you
                                      > for explaining all
                                      > this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine
                                      > >
                                      > > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?
                                      >
                                      > Hi Maxine,
                                      >
                                      > Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin's
                                      > summary of Rusyns
                                      > in (Czecho-)Slovakia was superb.
                                      >
                                      > Before he responds to your question, let me throw
                                      > out there this
                                      > very interesting article from the website of the
                                      > Orthodox parish in
                                      > Michalovce:
                                      >
                                      http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html
                                      >
                                      > It pretty clearly demonstrates that Rusyns were one
                                      > of the
                                      > significant ethnic groups who lived in Michalovce
                                      > and many of the
                                      > surrounding villages. Unfortunately, according to
                                      > the 2001 census
                                      > statistics, that is no longer the case (of course,
                                      > the descendants
                                      > of the people who were the local Rusyns are still
                                      > around; they just
                                      > don't feel anymore that they are Rusyns). Perhaps
                                      > Martin will refer
                                      > to / summarize this article when he responds to your
                                      > question.
                                      >
                                      > Rich
                                      >
                                      >




                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                      Be a PS3 game guru.
                                      Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
                                      http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
                                    • Martin Votruba
                                      ... Thank you Dr. Q, Maxine, Rich, for your kind words. Actually, I wondered whether Rich might be able to say more about it -- he s got the best information
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                        > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?

                                        Thank you Dr. Q, Maxine, Rich, for your kind words. Actually, I
                                        wondered whether Rich might be able to say more about it -- he's got
                                        the best information about these topics of anyone I know. Rusyns have
                                        certainly been in the Michalovce area for hundreds of years. It's not
                                        easy to be very specific about the more distant past because reports
                                        about ethnicity become scanty. The earliest survey of the languages
                                        in the Habsburg monarchy listed Slovak as the major language in
                                        Michalovce and the surrounding area (roughly, from Trebisov to
                                        Humenne) in 1772 but that's all. The survey didn't ask about all the
                                        languages, only about the major (not necessarily majority) language in
                                        each village.

                                        The website that Rich has linked to says that the earliest known
                                        record of the Rusyns in the area comes from 1254, but such Central
                                        European records rarely tell us anything about when a settlement came
                                        into existence, only by what year it had already been in place, which
                                        is the case in this instance, too. (I'm skipping some amateurish
                                        narration about earlier history at that website.) Those who follow
                                        the Eastern Christian rite have been the second largest religious
                                        group in Michalovce (40%-->20%) since at least the 18th century.


                                        Martin

                                        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                                      • vchromoho
                                        No, Caye, unfortunately not. It would make a worthwhile project to translate it, though; perhaps the Carpatho-Rusyn Society could do something about that. The
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                          No, Caye, unfortunately not. It would make a worthwhile project to
                                          translate it, though; perhaps the Carpatho-Rusyn Society could do
                                          something about that.

                                          The Michalovce Orthodox parish has an English version of their site,
                                          but so far there's really nothing on it:
                                          http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/ANGLICKY/pco-finish.html

                                          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Rich, any chance that comes in an English version?
                                          >
                                          > Caye
                                          >
                                          > --- vchromoho <rcuster@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "maxine"
                                          > > <maxine96@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you
                                          > > for explaining all
                                          > > this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Maxine,
                                          > >
                                          > > Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin's
                                          > > summary of Rusyns
                                          > > in (Czecho-)Slovakia was superb.
                                          > >
                                          > > Before he responds to your question, let me throw
                                          > > out there this
                                          > > very interesting article from the website of the
                                          > > Orthodox parish in
                                          > > Michalovce:
                                          > >
                                          > http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html
                                          > >
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.