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Rusyns demand Rusyn in church

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  • Martin Votruba
    Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services. The campaign does not
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 7, 2007
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      Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
      called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services. The
      campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language called
      Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the sermons
      that are in Slovak.

      After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied the
      practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
      which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church. Following
      the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
      ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many Rusyns
      preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity then). The
      Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
      communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity was
      not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.

      The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek Catholic
      Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church Slovakizes
      its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of Rusyn in
      church.

      The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the Rusyn
      activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
      cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
      candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.

      The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the Church
      because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
      maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to use
      Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church hierarchy.

      Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia that
      is taught in several schools.


      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
    • Sinbad Schwartz
      ... sermons ... Following ... The ... in ... Church
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 7, 2007
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        --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
        > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services. The
        > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language called
        > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
        sermons
        > that are in Slovak.
        >
        > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied the
        > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
        > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
        Following
        > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
        > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many Rusyns
        > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity then).
        The
        > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
        > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity was
        > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
        >
        > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek Catholic
        > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church Slovakizes
        > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of Rusyn
        in
        > church.
        >
        > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the Rusyn
        > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
        > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
        > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
        >
        > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
        Church
        > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
        > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to use
        > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church hierarchy.
        >
        > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia that
        > is taught in several schools.
        >
        >
        > Martin
        >
        > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
        >
      • Sinbad Schwartz
        Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a schlep of my fingers. In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in Kamienka and the other
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 7, 2007
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          Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a "schlep" of my fingers.
          In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in
          Kamienka and the other in Bardejov off Stara Mesto. I can't swear to
          it but I thought the homilies were in Rusyn. Is this just an attempt
          to get official recognition of Rusyn by the church or to require
          Rusyn be used in all GC churches?

          My relatives made a point of saying the Mass in Bardejov would be
          in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does this mean that Mass is now normally
          said in Slovak in the Slovak GC churches. GC Mass is now said in
          English in this country.

          RU

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
          <sandman6294@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
          > > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services.
          The
          > > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language
          called
          > > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
          > sermons
          > > that are in Slovak.
          > >
          > > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied
          the
          > > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
          > > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
          > Following
          > > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
          > > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many
          Rusyns
          > > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity
          then).
          > The
          > > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
          > > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity
          was
          > > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
          > >
          > > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek
          Catholic
          > > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church
          Slovakizes
          > > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of
          Rusyn
          > in
          > > church.
          > >
          > > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the
          Rusyn
          > > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
          > > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
          > > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
          > >
          > > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
          > Church
          > > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
          > > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to
          use
          > > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church
          hierarchy.
          > >
          > > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia
          that
          > > is taught in several schools.
          > >
          > >
          > > Martin
          > >
          > > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
          > >
          >
        • Gergely
          It may have changed very recently, but the last time I went to Easter High Mass in Bradenville, about three or four years ago, I believe a portion was still in
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 8, 2007
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            It may have changed very recently, but the last time I went to Easter High Mass in Bradenville, about three or four years ago, I believe a portion was still in Rusyn.

            Jack Gergely

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sinbad Schwartz
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:18 AM
            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church


            Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a "schlep" of my fingers.
            In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in
            Kamienka and the other in Bardejov off Stara Mesto. I can't swear to
            it but I thought the homilies were in Rusyn. Is this just an attempt
            to get official recognition of Rusyn by the church or to require
            Rusyn be used in all GC churches?

            My relatives made a point of saying the Mass in Bardejov would be
            in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does this mean that Mass is now normally
            said in Slovak in the Slovak GC churches. GC Mass is now said in
            English in this country.

            RU

            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
            <sandman6294@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
            > > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services.
            The
            > > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language
            called
            > > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
            > sermons
            > > that are in Slovak.
            > >
            > > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied
            the
            > > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
            > > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
            > Following
            > > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
            > > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many
            Rusyns
            > > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity
            then).
            > The
            > > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
            > > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity
            was
            > > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
            > >
            > > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek
            Catholic
            > > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church
            Slovakizes
            > > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of
            Rusyn
            > in
            > > church.
            > >
            > > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the
            Rusyn
            > > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
            > > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
            > > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
            > >
            > > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
            > Church
            > > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
            > > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to
            use
            > > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church
            hierarchy.
            > >
            > > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia
            that
            > > is taught in several schools.
            > >
            > >
            > > Martin
            > >
            > > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
            > >
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • amiak27
            I was in Sulyn (Sulin) for the second and third days of Christmas 2006 and, when I asked about the language, the famly told me the priest is Slovak and speaks
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 8, 2007
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              I was in Sulyn (Sulin) for the second and third days of Christmas 2006
              and, when I asked about the language, the famly told me the priest is
              Slovak and speaks Slovak, yet some of the songs were in Slovak and
              some were in Rusyn.

              Ron

              --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
              <sandman6294@...> wrote:
              >
              > Oooops. Sorry for the blank reply. It was a "schlep" of my fingers.
              > In 1999 I attended two Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. One in
              > Kamienka and the other in Bardejov off Stara Mesto. I can't swear to
              > it but I thought the homilies were in Rusyn. Is this just an attempt
              > to get official recognition of Rusyn by the church or to require
              > Rusyn be used in all GC churches?
              >
              > My relatives made a point of saying the Mass in Bardejov would be
              > in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does this mean that Mass is now normally
              > said in Slovak in the Slovak GC churches. GC Mass is now said in
              > English in this country.
              >
              > RU
              >
              > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Sinbad Schwartz"
              > <sandman6294@> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Rusyn activists in Slovakia want the Greek Catholic Church (often
              > > > called Byzantine in the US) to introduce Rusyn in its services.
              > The
              > > > campaign does not concern liturgy in the historical language
              > called
              > > > Church Slavic, which the activists want to retain, but at the
              > > sermons
              > > > that are in Slovak.
              > > >
              > > > After the communists took over in Slovakia in 1948, they copied
              > the
              > > > practice in the Soviet Union and banned the Greek Catholic Church,
              > > > which they linked to the (Russian) Eastern Orthodox Church.
              > > Following
              > > > the demands from the Kremlin, they also banned references to Rusyn
              > > > ethnic identity and mandated Ukrainian identity instead (many
              > Rusyns
              > > > preferred to opt for Slovak rather than Ukrainian identity
              > then).
              > > The
              > > > Greek Catholic Church was permitted again during the relaxation of
              > > > communist rule in the late 1960s, but the ban on Rusyn identity
              > was
              > > > not removed until after the collapse of communism in 1989.
              > > >
              > > > The current Rusyn campaign, called "Charter of Rusyn Greek
              > Catholic
              > > > Believers 2007," charges that the Greek Catholic Church
              > Slovakizes
              > > > its Rusyn members because it does not provide for the use of
              > Rusyn
              > > in
              > > > church.
              > > >
              > > > The Greek Catholic Bishop's Office in Presov has said that the
              > Rusyn
              > > > activists should direct their linguistic demands to schools and
              > > > cultural institutions, and that there has been a shortage of
              > > > candidates for priesthood who could speak Rusyn.
              > > >
              > > > The activists say, however, that their campaign is aimed at the
              > > Church
              > > > because that remains the only sphere where Rusyn is absent, and
              > > > maintain that some of the Greek Catholic clergy would be able to
              > use
              > > > Rusyn in church, but fear to do so because of the Church
              > hierarchy.
              > > >
              > > > Rusyn is an officially recognized minority language in Slovakia
              > that
              > > > is taught in several schools.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Martin
              > > >
              > > > votruba "at" pitt "dot "edu
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Martin Votruba
              ... The way I read the Rusyn activists Charter 2007, RU, it s your first option. There are GC parishes with a majority that register Slovak ethnicity, so
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 8, 2007
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                > Is this just an attempt to get official recognition of Rusyn
                > by the church or to require Rusyn be used in all GC churches?

                The way I read the Rusyn activists' Charter 2007, RU, it's your first
                option. There are GC parishes with a majority that register Slovak
                ethnicity, so it's not likely that the activists would want to
                interfere with their preferences.

                > the Mass in Bardejov would be in "Stara Slovenska"(sp). Does
                > this mean that Mass is now normally said in Slovak in the
                > Slovak GC churches.

                The Rusyn activists have indicated that they're not targeting Church
                Slavic used for liturgy. However, ASFAIK, Church Slavic has been
                replaced by Slovak in at least some parishes. The activists would
                probably (my guess) settle initially for liturgy in Church Slavic, and
                the rest of the service in Rusyn. Their main gripe is with the GC
                Church hierarchy, which apparently -- some Rusyns in Slovakia charge
                -- does not merely suffer from a lack of clergy who speak Rusyn, but
                actually discourages those clergymen who'd be ready to use it.

                Charter 2007 was released 4 weeks before the formal inauguration of
                Canadian academic Paul Magocsi's history of the Rusyns in Presov later
                this month. The book is in Slovak.

                Quite inexcusably, Charter 2007 opens with a charge based on a false
                claim. It notes that the current "_Slovak_ GC Church" has had that
                designation since 1963 although its origins are Rusyn (they are), and
                blames it on one clergyman's decision in the Vatican. But the Church
                does not use _Slovak_ as an attribute. Its name is the ethnically
                neutral "Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia." Charter 2007 was
                released in Slovakia by a branch of an organization based in and
                sponsored from Canada. I wonder whether the error may have something
                to do with back-translation. I've seen numerous instances when the
                names of organizations called "XYZ na Slovensku" were translated to
                English as the "Slovak XYZ," which would then translate back (wrongly)
                as "Slovenske XYZ."


                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
              • Sinbad Schwartz
                ... Thanks Martin. Do you have an URL for a Charter 2007 site? ... A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar is why I hesitate to communicate frequently
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 11, 2007
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                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
                  wrote:
                  > Charter 2007 was released 4 weeks before the formal inauguration of
                  > Canadian academic Paul Magocsi's history of the Rusyns in Presov
                  >later this month. The book is in Slovak.

                  Thanks Martin. Do you have an URL for a Charter 2007 site?

                  >I've seen numerous instances when the
                  > names of organizations called "XYZ na Slovensku" were translated to
                  > English as the "Slovak XYZ," which would then translate back (wrongly)
                  > as "Slovenske XYZ."

                  A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar is why I hesitate to
                  communicate frequently in Rusyn or Slovak with my relatives in
                  Slovakia. Once I get beyond my rudimentary knowledge of early 20th
                  century Rusyn I most probably would be writing gibberish to them.

                  RU
                • Martin Votruba
                  ... Here it is, RU: www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html ... This is not that. The people who do that have difficulty understanding what they read,
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 12, 2007
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                    > an URL for a Charter 2007 site?

                    Here it is, RU:

                    www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html


                    > A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar

                    This is not that. The people who do that have difficulty
                    understanding what they read, so to say. The phrases "a tourist in
                    America" and "an American tourist" do not mean the same thing in
                    English, either, but in many such instances people are unable to see
                    that there's a difference (they'd imagine that, e.g., "an American
                    park" and "a park in America" mean the same) so they often
                    mistranslate "X na Slovensku" as "a Slovak X" to English not because
                    of grammar but because of how they think (or don't). Those in
                    Slovakia who may have translated Charter 2007 from English to Slovak
                    (if it was indeed drawn up at least partly in Canada or the US) then
                    would have, equally mindlessly, translated back what they saw in
                    English although it constituted a false charge, moreover one that
                    opened the Charter and hoped to sum it up symbolically, against the
                    very institution that was the subject of their complaint.


                    Martin

                    votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                  • Dr. Joe Q
                    Dear Martin, The Rusyn identity question has been around since the early 1900s (and probably longer for those who are Rusyn). As I understand it, the Rusyn
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 12, 2007
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                      Dear Martin,

                      The Rusyn "identity" question has been around since
                      the early 1900s (and probably longer for those who are
                      Rusyn). As I understand it, the Rusyn (Rus',
                      Ruthenian, Galician, Silesian, Lemko, Bojko, Hucul,
                      etc., etc.) have been a point of discussion and
                      dissension since the end of WW1. There is a faction
                      that claims the Rusyns living in Ukrainia (Romania and
                      former Yugoslavia) are not necessarily Rusyn because
                      than have accepted the identity of the present home
                      country - - - while others claim that these people are
                      still Rusyn.

                      Your colleague Paul Magocsi (U. Toronto) has published
                      volumes on the Rusyn.

                      Do you have anything more to add to Paul's
                      observations?

                      Thanks.

                      Dr. "Q"

                      --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:

                      > > an URL for a Charter 2007 site?
                      >
                      > Here it is, RU:
                      >
                      > www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html
                      >
                      >
                      > > A lack of knowledge of the language and grammar
                      >
                      > This is not that. The people who do that have
                      > difficulty
                      > understanding what they read, so to say. The
                      > phrases "a tourist in
                      > America" and "an American tourist" do not mean the
                      > same thing in
                      > English, either, but in many such instances people
                      > are unable to see
                      > that there's a difference (they'd imagine that,
                      > e.g., "an American
                      > park" and "a park in America" mean the same) so they
                      > often
                      > mistranslate "X na Slovensku" as "a Slovak X" to
                      > English not because
                      > of grammar but because of how they think (or don't).
                      > Those in
                      > Slovakia who may have translated Charter 2007 from
                      > English to Slovak
                      > (if it was indeed drawn up at least partly in Canada
                      > or the US) then
                      > would have, equally mindlessly, translated back what
                      > they saw in
                      > English although it constituted a false charge,
                      > moreover one that
                      > opened the Charter and hoped to sum it up
                      > symbolically, against the
                      > very institution that was the subject of their
                      > complaint.
                      >
                      >
                      > Martin
                      >
                      > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu



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                    • Martin Votruba
                      I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One s identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with our parents and soon
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 12, 2007
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                        I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One's
                        identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with
                        our parents and soon by others. Once we are a little older, we use
                        that information to begin to decide who we are for ourselves, but then
                        others can still influence us by labeling us in ways different from
                        what we'd rather choose.

                        Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of Hungary acquired a
                        fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as the Western Slavs
                        in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs became Croats).
                        It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because the borders shifted
                        a lot all the time.

                        Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several labels for
                        themselves once they found themselves in Czechoslovakia after 1918
                        (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was clear that those
                        who did saw their identity as different from that of their West Slavic
                        fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the other way round.

                        That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative part of
                        Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the north-eastern part of the
                        earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was annexed by the
                        Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had to call themselves
                        Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was banned).
                        Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had to follow suit.
                        When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity, many Rusyns in
                        Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of fear that their
                        villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or they personally
                        deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those fears were
                        probably unfounded by then).

                        So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left with two options:
                        either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks. Understandably, most
                        chose the second option -- the identity of the majority in the state
                        where they lived rather than the identity that was being forced on the
                        Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had now found
                        themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably worse than being
                        in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.

                        After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence," communism collapsed
                        in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call themselves whatever they
                        want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to persuade the descendants
                        of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before communism to
                        recognize that identity for themselves again. It's an uphill
                        struggle: the decades of Slovak identity, intermarriage, migration
                        have taken their heavy toll on a group of people that was not
                        particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with. Moreover, they've
                        lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the about 500,000 pre-WW
                        II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where Ukraine is still
                        suppressing Rusyn identity.

                        About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and related identities)
                        in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930 census. Immediately
                        after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called themselves Rusyns
                        + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000 in the 1991
                        census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's population actually
                        grew by 60% during the same period. Although activists (and Magocsi)
                        hoped then that the number might quadruple within a decade, it hasn't
                        happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns + about 11,000
                        Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001 census.

                        Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher number of people in
                        Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca. 55,000 + 8,000
                        Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a half of whom
                        identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek Catholics, ca. 220,000
                        plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of 270,000, most of whom
                        Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their Rusyn/East Slavic
                        identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom among the Roman
                        Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.

                        People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                        change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's
                        choice in the past 16 years. But the present choices are among the
                        results of the annihilating grinder through which Rusyn identity was
                        put in the decades between the end of WW II and the collapse of communism.


                        Martin

                        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                      • Dr. Joe Q
                        Dear Martin, Thank you for the clear and succinct explanation. Dr. Q ... ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
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                          Dear Martin,

                          Thank you for the clear and succinct explanation.

                          Dr. "Q"

                          --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:

                          > I think you gave a very good account of the
                          > situation, Joe. One's
                          > identity is formed by what others tell us what we
                          > are, beginning with
                          > our parents and soon by others. Once we are a
                          > little older, we use
                          > that information to begin to decide who we are for
                          > ourselves, but then
                          > others can still influence us by labeling us in ways
                          > different from
                          > what we'd rather choose.
                          >
                          > Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of
                          > Hungary acquired a
                          > fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as
                          > the Western Slavs
                          > in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs
                          > became Croats).
                          > It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because
                          > the borders shifted
                          > a lot all the time.
                          >
                          > Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several
                          > labels for
                          > themselves once they found themselves in
                          > Czechoslovakia after 1918
                          > (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was
                          > clear that those
                          > who did saw their identity as different from that of
                          > their West Slavic
                          > fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the
                          > other way round.
                          >
                          > That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative
                          > part of
                          > Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the
                          > north-eastern part of the
                          > earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was
                          > annexed by the
                          > Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had
                          > to call themselves
                          > Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was
                          > banned).
                          > Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had
                          > to follow suit.
                          > When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity,
                          > many Rusyns in
                          > Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of
                          > fear that their
                          > villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or
                          > they personally
                          > deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those
                          > fears were
                          > probably unfounded by then).
                          >
                          > So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left
                          > with two options:
                          > either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks.
                          > Understandably, most
                          > chose the second option -- the identity of the
                          > majority in the state
                          > where they lived rather than the identity that was
                          > being forced on the
                          > Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had
                          > now found
                          > themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably
                          > worse than being
                          > in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.
                          >
                          > After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence,"
                          > communism collapsed
                          > in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call
                          > themselves whatever they
                          > want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to
                          > persuade the descendants
                          > of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before
                          > communism to
                          > recognize that identity for themselves again. It's
                          > an uphill
                          > struggle: the decades of Slovak identity,
                          > intermarriage, migration
                          > have taken their heavy toll on a group of people
                          > that was not
                          > particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with.
                          > Moreover, they've
                          > lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the
                          > about 500,000 pre-WW
                          > II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where
                          > Ukraine is still
                          > suppressing Rusyn identity.
                          >
                          > About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and
                          > related identities)
                          > in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930
                          > census. Immediately
                          > after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called
                          > themselves Rusyns
                          > + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000
                          > in the 1991
                          > census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's
                          > population actually
                          > grew by 60% during the same period. Although
                          > activists (and Magocsi)
                          > hoped then that the number might quadruple within a
                          > decade, it hasn't
                          > happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns +
                          > about 11,000
                          > Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001
                          > census.
                          >
                          > Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher
                          > number of people in
                          > Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca.
                          > 55,000 + 8,000
                          > Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a
                          > half of whom
                          > identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek
                          > Catholics, ca. 220,000
                          > plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of
                          > 270,000, most of whom
                          > Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their
                          > Rusyn/East Slavic
                          > identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom
                          > among the Roman
                          > Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.
                          >
                          > People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in
                          > Slovakia, and
                          > change both freely, so it's been up to the activists
                          > and people's
                          > choice in the past 16 years. But the present
                          > choices are among the
                          > results of the annihilating grinder through which
                          > Rusyn identity was
                          > put in the decades between the end of WW II and the
                          > collapse of communism.
                          >
                          >
                          > Martin
                          >
                          > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu



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                        • konekta@nm.psg.sk
                          People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and change both freely, so it s been up to the activists and people s Dear Martin, I am sure, you
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                            change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's

                            Dear Martin,
                            I am sure, you meant this to be a rather technical possibility.
                            Ethnicity is something with deep roots and is inherited.
                            To give a grave example; a non Roma would never claim he was Roma.
                            Vladimir


                            _____

                            From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Martin Votruba
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:51 AM
                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church



                            I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One's
                            identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with
                            our parents and soon by others. Once we are a little older, we use
                            that information to begin to decide who we are for ourselves, but then
                            others can still influence us by labeling us in ways different from
                            what we'd rather choose.

                            Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of Hungary acquired a
                            fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as the Western Slavs
                            in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs became Croats).
                            It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because the borders shifted
                            a lot all the time.

                            Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several labels for
                            themselves once they found themselves in Czechoslovakia after 1918
                            (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was clear that those
                            who did saw their identity as different from that of their West Slavic
                            fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the other way round.

                            That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative part of
                            Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the north-eastern part of the
                            earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was annexed by the
                            Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had to call themselves
                            Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was banned).
                            Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had to follow suit.
                            When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity, many Rusyns in
                            Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of fear that their
                            villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or they personally
                            deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those fears were
                            probably unfounded by then).

                            So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left with two options:
                            either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks. Understandably, most
                            chose the second option -- the identity of the majority in the state
                            where they lived rather than the identity that was being forced on the
                            Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had now found
                            themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably worse than being
                            in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.

                            After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence," communism collapsed
                            in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call themselves whatever they
                            want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to persuade the descendants
                            of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before communism to
                            recognize that identity for themselves again. It's an uphill
                            struggle: the decades of Slovak identity, intermarriage, migration
                            have taken their heavy toll on a group of people that was not
                            particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with. Moreover, they've
                            lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the about 500,000 pre-WW
                            II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where Ukraine is still
                            suppressing Rusyn identity.

                            About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and related identities)
                            in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930 census. Immediately
                            after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called themselves Rusyns
                            + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000 in the 1991
                            census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's population actually
                            grew by 60% during the same period. Although activists (and Magocsi)
                            hoped then that the number might quadruple within a decade, it hasn't
                            happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns + about 11,000
                            Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001 census.

                            Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher number of people in
                            Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca. 55,000 + 8,000
                            Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a half of whom
                            identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek Catholics, ca. 220,000
                            plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of 270,000, most of whom
                            Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their Rusyn/East Slavic
                            identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom among the Roman
                            Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.

                            People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                            change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's
                            choice in the past 16 years. But the present choices are among the
                            results of the annihilating grinder through which Rusyn identity was
                            put in the decades between the end of WW II and the collapse of communism.

                            Martin

                            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Martin Votruba
                            ... There is no disagreement between what you and I say, Vladimir. In the context of that discussion, it is necessary to understand people s legal freedom to
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > I am sure, you meant this to be a rather technical possibility.
                              > Ethnicity is something with deep roots and is inherited.
                              > To give a grave example; a non Roma would never claim he was Roma.

                              There is no disagreement between what you and I say, Vladimir. In the
                              context of that discussion, it is necessary to understand people's
                              legal freedom to choose and change their registered ethnic identity in
                              Slovakia (which has no bearing on whether they do so and which one
                              they switch to) because it's not the case in some other countries,
                              including in the US -- to identify as a member of any of the
                              AmerIndian peoples and be recognized as such officially, an American
                              citizen needs to meet certain genealogical criteria.

                              Not so in Slovakia where people can switch between Slovak, Rusyn,
                              Hungarian, Romani, and whatever other identities as often as they want
                              to, and get some financial support for their cultural activities from
                              the government if the identity they choose is one of the decreed
                              "traditional regional" ones. As a curiosity, about a dozen people in
                              Slovakia decided to call themselves Eskimos in 2001, especially in the
                              Zilina region. And on a more practical level, a fairly well known
                              Slovak author registered as Croatian after the collapse of communism,
                              which provided him with some financial support for his writing from
                              the government at a time when communist support for the arts went down
                              the drain.


                              Martin

                              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                            • maxine
                              Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you for explaining all this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine Is Michalovce Rusyn also? ... From: Martin
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you for explaining all this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine

                                Is Michalovce Rusyn also?


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Martin Votruba
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:50 AM
                                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: Rusyns demand Rusyn in church


                                I think you gave a very good account of the situation, Joe. One's
                                identity is formed by what others tell us what we are, beginning with
                                our parents and soon by others. Once we are a little older, we use
                                that information to begin to decide who we are for ourselves, but then
                                others can still influence us by labeling us in ways different from
                                what we'd rather choose.

                                Most of the Eastern Slavs in the former Kingdom of Hungary acquired a
                                fairly clear identity -- they became Rusyns (just as the Western Slavs
                                in the Kingdom became Slovaks and the Southern Slavs became Croats).
                                It was more complicated in Poland-Ukraine because the borders shifted
                                a lot all the time.

                                Although the Rusyns/Eastern Slavs still used several labels for
                                themselves once they found themselves in Czechoslovakia after 1918
                                (Rusin, Rusnak, Malorus, Rus, Ukrajinec...), it was clear that those
                                who did saw their identity as different from that of their West Slavic
                                fellow citizens and neighbors, the Slovaks, and the other way round.

                                That was crushed after WW II. Their administrative part of
                                Czechoslovakia, Sub-Carpathian Rus (the north-eastern part of the
                                earlier Kingdom for the preceding 800 years), was annexed by the
                                Soviet Union in 1945 and all the Eastern Slavs had to call themselves
                                Ukrainians there after that (Rusyn identity was banned).
                                Czechoslovakia, which turned communist in 1948, had to follow suit.
                                When Prague copied the Soviet ban on Rusyn identity, many Rusyns in
                                Slovakia were eager to call themselves Slovak out of fear that their
                                villages might still be annexed by Moscow, too, or they personally
                                deported if they called themselves Ukrainians (those fears were
                                probably unfounded by then).

                                So, the Rusyns in communist Czechoslovakia were left with two options:
                                either call themselves Ukrainians or Slovaks. Understandably, most
                                chose the second option -- the identity of the majority in the state
                                where they lived rather than the identity that was being forced on the
                                Rusyns across the border just east of them, who had now found
                                themselves in the Soviet Union -- a lot incomparably worse than being
                                in communist Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.

                                After 40 years of Rusyn "official non-existence," communism collapsed
                                in Czechoslovakia, people are allowed to call themselves whatever they
                                want again, and Rusyn activists are trying to persuade the descendants
                                of those who used to call themselves Rusyns before communism to
                                recognize that identity for themselves again. It's an uphill
                                struggle: the decades of Slovak identity, intermarriage, migration
                                have taken their heavy toll on a group of people that was not
                                particularly numerous in Slovakia to begin with. Moreover, they've
                                lost the supportive influence/"hinterland" of the about 500,000 pre-WW
                                II Rusyn majority in Sub-Carpathian Rus where Ukraine is still
                                suppressing Rusyn identity.

                                About 90,000 people called themselves Rusyns (and related identities)
                                in pre-WW II democracy in Slovakia in the 1930 census. Immediately
                                after the collapse of communism, about 17,000 called themselves Rusyns
                                + about 13,000 Ukrainians for a total of ca. 31,000 in the 1991
                                census, a precipitous drop of 60% while Slovakia's population actually
                                grew by 60% during the same period. Although activists (and Magocsi)
                                hoped then that the number might quadruple within a decade, it hasn't
                                happened: about 24,000 called themselves Rusyns + about 11,000
                                Ukrainians for a total of ca. 35,000 in the 2001 census.

                                Rusyn activists base their hopes on the higher number of people in
                                Slovakia who say their mother tongue is Rusyn, ca. 55,000 + 8,000
                                Ukrainian for a total of about 63,000 more than a half of whom
                                identify as Slovak; and on the number of Greek Catholics, ca. 220,000
                                plus ca. 50,000 Eastern Orthodox for a total of 270,000, most of whom
                                Rusyn activists tend to see as people who lost their Rusyn/East Slavic
                                identity over the centuries of living in the Kingdom among the Roman
                                Catholic and Protestant Slovaks and Hungarians.

                                People can claim whatever ethnicity and religion in Slovakia, and
                                change both freely, so it's been up to the activists and people's
                                choice in the past 16 years. But the present choices are among the
                                results of the annihilating grinder through which Rusyn identity was
                                put in the decades between the end of WW II and the collapse of communism.

                                Martin

                                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • vchromoho
                                ... this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine ... Hi Maxine, Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin s summary of Rusyns in (Czecho-)Slovakia was
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "maxine" <maxine96@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you for explaining all
                                  this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine
                                  >
                                  > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?

                                  Hi Maxine,

                                  Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin's summary of Rusyns
                                  in (Czecho-)Slovakia was superb.

                                  Before he responds to your question, let me throw out there this
                                  very interesting article from the website of the Orthodox parish in
                                  Michalovce:
                                  http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html

                                  It pretty clearly demonstrates that Rusyns were one of the
                                  significant ethnic groups who lived in Michalovce and many of the
                                  surrounding villages. Unfortunately, according to the 2001 census
                                  statistics, that is no longer the case (of course, the descendants
                                  of the people who were the local Rusyns are still around; they just
                                  don't feel anymore that they are Rusyns). Perhaps Martin will refer
                                  to / summarize this article when he responds to your question.

                                  Rich
                                • bergschlawiner
                                  In the GC church in Bardejov and the Orthodox cathedral in Presov I heard Rusyn spoken during the sermons. The Rusyns have already been publishing a New
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 13, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In the GC church in Bardejov and the Orthodox cathedral in Presov I
                                    heard Rusyn spoken during the sermons. The Rusyns have already been
                                    publishing a New Testament in Rusyn. No one is forcing the faithful to
                                    use or pray in Slovak like they are doing in the US with English.
                                  • vchromoho
                                    ... been ... to ... You provide two examples, but you assert that No one is forcing the faithful to use or pray in Slovak . Are you certain that this has
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "bergschlawiner" <KD7EER@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > In the GC church in Bardejov and the Orthodox cathedral in Presov I
                                      > heard Rusyn spoken during the sermons. The Rusyns have already
                                      been
                                      > publishing a New Testament in Rusyn. No one is forcing the faithful
                                      to
                                      > use or pray in Slovak like they are doing in the US with English.

                                      You provide two examples, but you assert that "No one is forcing the
                                      faithful to use or pray in Slovak". Are you certain that this has
                                      never happened, anywhere?

                                      As my Greek Catholic Rusyn priest friends in Europe have asked
                                      me, "Why is the Church acting so vehemently against Rusyns?" Frankly,
                                      I didn't have an answer for them, and I too would love to know why.

                                      Ponder, if you will, the sad stories on this website:
                                      http://www.geocities.com/timkovic/

                                      The ONLY time the current bishop of Presov, Babjak, has written to
                                      address the concerns of Rusyns at all has been to denounce and rebut
                                      them:
                                      http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=797
                                      http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=529
                                      Where is the pastoral concern in that? Does he have nothing more to
                                      say to them than "this is all a lie"?
                                    • Caye Caswick
                                      Rich, any chance that comes in an English version? Caye ... http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html ...
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Rich, any chance that comes in an English version?


                                        Caye



                                        --- vchromoho <rcuster@...> wrote:

                                        > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "maxine"
                                        > <maxine96@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you
                                        > for explaining all
                                        > this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine
                                        > >
                                        > > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?
                                        >
                                        > Hi Maxine,
                                        >
                                        > Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin's
                                        > summary of Rusyns
                                        > in (Czecho-)Slovakia was superb.
                                        >
                                        > Before he responds to your question, let me throw
                                        > out there this
                                        > very interesting article from the website of the
                                        > Orthodox parish in
                                        > Michalovce:
                                        >
                                        http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html
                                        >
                                        > It pretty clearly demonstrates that Rusyns were one
                                        > of the
                                        > significant ethnic groups who lived in Michalovce
                                        > and many of the
                                        > surrounding villages. Unfortunately, according to
                                        > the 2001 census
                                        > statistics, that is no longer the case (of course,
                                        > the descendants
                                        > of the people who were the local Rusyns are still
                                        > around; they just
                                        > don't feel anymore that they are Rusyns). Perhaps
                                        > Martin will refer
                                        > to / summarize this article when he responds to your
                                        > question.
                                        >
                                        > Rich
                                        >
                                        >




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                                      • Martin Votruba
                                        ... Thank you Dr. Q, Maxine, Rich, for your kind words. Actually, I wondered whether Rich might be able to say more about it -- he s got the best information
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?

                                          Thank you Dr. Q, Maxine, Rich, for your kind words. Actually, I
                                          wondered whether Rich might be able to say more about it -- he's got
                                          the best information about these topics of anyone I know. Rusyns have
                                          certainly been in the Michalovce area for hundreds of years. It's not
                                          easy to be very specific about the more distant past because reports
                                          about ethnicity become scanty. The earliest survey of the languages
                                          in the Habsburg monarchy listed Slovak as the major language in
                                          Michalovce and the surrounding area (roughly, from Trebisov to
                                          Humenne) in 1772 but that's all. The survey didn't ask about all the
                                          languages, only about the major (not necessarily majority) language in
                                          each village.

                                          The website that Rich has linked to says that the earliest known
                                          record of the Rusyns in the area comes from 1254, but such Central
                                          European records rarely tell us anything about when a settlement came
                                          into existence, only by what year it had already been in place, which
                                          is the case in this instance, too. (I'm skipping some amateurish
                                          narration about earlier history at that website.) Those who follow
                                          the Eastern Christian rite have been the second largest religious
                                          group in Michalovce (40%-->20%) since at least the 18th century.


                                          Martin

                                          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                                        • vchromoho
                                          No, Caye, unfortunately not. It would make a worthwhile project to translate it, though; perhaps the Carpatho-Rusyn Society could do something about that. The
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 14, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            No, Caye, unfortunately not. It would make a worthwhile project to
                                            translate it, though; perhaps the Carpatho-Rusyn Society could do
                                            something about that.

                                            The Michalovce Orthodox parish has an English version of their site,
                                            but so far there's really nothing on it:
                                            http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/ANGLICKY/pco-finish.html

                                            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Rich, any chance that comes in an English version?
                                            >
                                            > Caye
                                            >
                                            > --- vchromoho <rcuster@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "maxine"
                                            > > <maxine96@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hi Martin, You are so knowledgeable, thank you
                                            > > for explaining all
                                            > > this to us. Keep up the good work. Maxine
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Is Michalovce Rusyn also?
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Maxine,
                                            > >
                                            > > Let me just jump in and say that I think Martin's
                                            > > summary of Rusyns
                                            > > in (Czecho-)Slovakia was superb.
                                            > >
                                            > > Before he responds to your question, let me throw
                                            > > out there this
                                            > > very interesting article from the website of the
                                            > > Orthodox parish in
                                            > > Michalovce:
                                            > >
                                            > http://www.pcomichalovce.szm.sk/HISTORIA/historia1.html
                                            > >
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