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Re: national bird & flower

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  • Martin Votruba
    ... This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic decision by the Habsburg
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 6, 2007
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      > Lime tree is the all-slav tree (soft), while the
      > oak is a german symbol(hard).

      This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the
      Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic
      decision by the Habsburg Slavs' delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress
      in 1848. Until then the mythologies concerning both the oak and the
      lime/linden tree were common among the Slavs just like among other
      European folks. For instance, the Slovak poet Jan Kollar, whose works
      became quite influential among the Slavic activists in the Habsburg
      monarchy, still used the oak as a symbol of Slavdom (and, in a veiled
      way, Russia) in his Daughter of Slava in 1824.

      From among all the Europeans it was only among the Germanic peoples
      that the oak became a dominant mythological tree, and touted so by
      their activists. So the delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress decided
      that they would "de-select" the oak from their images of Slavic
      mythology and tout the linden.

      Anthropologists say that the oak was the "residence" of the powerful
      Slavic god of thunder and lightning (Perun). That paralleled the role
      of the tree in other European mythologies. For instance, the Romans
      associated the oak with the reigning god Jupiter (also the master of
      thunder).

      The symbolic polarization oak=hard-x-linden=soft ("masculine --
      feminine") is old, too, derived from the properties of the wood, of
      course. In Ovid's presumably Ancient Greek myth of Philemon and
      Baucis, he is turned into an oak and she into a linden. The Slavic
      activists tied this in with the German philosopher Herder's
      description of the Slavs, in which he called them peaceful, opposed to
      wars, and the myth of the dove-like Slavs and their linden tree set
      sail in 1848. The prominent 19th century Slovak activist Ludovit Stur
      said, for instance, that "the linden blooms after the oak," meaning
      that the Slavs would get ahead of the Germans (I wonder how many
      people are still holding their breath).


      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
    • Vladimir Bohinc
      Dear Martin, Symbolics is not a matter of accidental choice, but always has something to it. Just my statement. Not that I appose to anything you wrote. I
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 7, 2007
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        Dear Martin,
        Symbolics is not a matter of accidental choice, but always has something to it. Just my statement. Not that I appose to anything you wrote. I agree completely.
        It was and in many cases still is a custom, that the linden was planted in the middle of a slavic village or settlement. The elders then had their meetings under it's rich shadow.
        Maybe the oldest linden tree is in front of the Bojnice castle. If I am not mistaking, it is about 750 years old. So I would guess, this linden as a slavic symbol is very very old.
        Comparing the german and slavic ethnicity ,both oak and linden tree correspond very much to the characteristics of the people.
        A Slav would shed a tear rather than a german. Be it in joy or sorrow. A male Slav would kiss another male Slav, while a German would not.
        Vladimir

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Martin Votruba
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:58 AM
        Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: national bird & flower


        > Lime tree is the all-slav tree (soft), while the
        > oak is a german symbol(hard).

        This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the
        Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic
        decision by the Habsburg Slavs' delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress
        in 1848. Until then the mythologies concerning both the oak and the
        lime/linden tree were common among the Slavs just like among other
        European folks. For instance, the Slovak poet Jan Kollar, whose works
        became quite influential among the Slavic activists in the Habsburg
        monarchy, still used the oak as a symbol of Slavdom (and, in a veiled
        way, Russia) in his Daughter of Slava in 1824.

        From among all the Europeans it was only among the Germanic peoples
        that the oak became a dominant mythological tree, and touted so by
        their activists. So the delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress decided
        that they would "de-select" the oak from their images of Slavic
        mythology and tout the linden.

        Anthropologists say that the oak was the "residence" of the powerful
        Slavic god of thunder and lightning (Perun). That paralleled the role
        of the tree in other European mythologies. For instance, the Romans
        associated the oak with the reigning god Jupiter (also the master of
        thunder).

        The symbolic polarization oak=hard-x-linden=soft ("masculine --
        feminine") is old, too, derived from the properties of the wood, of
        course. In Ovid's presumably Ancient Greek myth of Philemon and
        Baucis, he is turned into an oak and she into a linden. The Slavic
        activists tied this in with the German philosopher Herder's
        description of the Slavs, in which he called them peaceful, opposed to
        wars, and the myth of the dove-like Slavs and their linden tree set
        sail in 1848. The prominent 19th century Slovak activist Ludovit Stur
        said, for instance, that "the linden blooms after the oak," meaning
        that the Slavs would get ahead of the Germans (I wonder how many
        people are still holding their breath).

        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • cvargacvarga
        The oak is very important in tradition German lore. At one time the German deck of card had three suits and the oak leaf was one of them. (I can t quite
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 7, 2007
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          The oak is very important in tradition German lore. At one time the German deck of card
          had three suits and the oak leaf was one of them. (I can't quite remember the other two,
          but I think acorns were another.)

          Colin

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Lime tree is the all-slav tree (soft), while the
          > > oak is a german symbol(hard).
          >
          > This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the
          > Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic
          > decision by the Habsburg Slavs' delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress
          > in 1848. Until then the mythologies concerning both the oak and the
          > lime/linden tree were common among the Slavs just like among other
          > European folks. For instance, the Slovak poet Jan Kollar, whose works
          > became quite influential among the Slavic activists in the Habsburg
          > monarchy, still used the oak as a symbol of Slavdom (and, in a veiled
          > way, Russia) in his Daughter of Slava in 1824.
          >
          > From among all the Europeans it was only among the Germanic peoples
          > that the oak became a dominant mythological tree, and touted so by
          > their activists. So the delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress decided
          > that they would "de-select" the oak from their images of Slavic
          > mythology and tout the linden.
          >
          > Anthropologists say that the oak was the "residence" of the powerful
          > Slavic god of thunder and lightning (Perun). That paralleled the role
          > of the tree in other European mythologies. For instance, the Romans
          > associated the oak with the reigning god Jupiter (also the master of
          > thunder).
          >
          > The symbolic polarization oak=hard-x-linden=soft ("masculine --
          > feminine") is old, too, derived from the properties of the wood, of
          > course. In Ovid's presumably Ancient Greek myth of Philemon and
          > Baucis, he is turned into an oak and she into a linden. The Slavic
          > activists tied this in with the German philosopher Herder's
          > description of the Slavs, in which he called them peaceful, opposed to
          > wars, and the myth of the dove-like Slavs and their linden tree set
          > sail in 1848. The prominent 19th century Slovak activist Ludovit Stur
          > said, for instance, that "the linden blooms after the oak," meaning
          > that the Slavs would get ahead of the Germans (I wonder how many
          > people are still holding their breath).
          >
          >
          > Martin
          >
          > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
          >
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