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Re: [Slovak-World] Re: national bird & flower

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  • Vladimir Bohinc
    The Poles have a joke about the Austrians saying that their war flag is a white eagle on a white background. Vladimir ... From: Martin Votruba To:
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 6, 2007
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      The Poles have a joke about the Austrians saying that their war flag is a white eagle on a white background.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Martin Votruba
      To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 8:00 PM
      Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: national bird & flower


      > there might not be an official national bird, flower, etc.

      You're right, Julie. Your cousin's probably confusing what's
      practiced by the American states with countries -- how many people
      would be able to say what's the US national animal (not bird), flower,
      tree? European countries mostly have a flag, coat of arms, and
      anthem, but hardly any have symbolic gardens and zoos sanctioned by
      the legislatures or governments the way the American states do.

      However -- animals and plants do appear in some European (and other)
      coats of arms, so people sometimes speak of "the Austrian eagle,"
      "Czech lion," "Scottish thistle," etc., or the "American eagle." But
      such European national symbols are not sanctioned the way they are by
      the American states and such references are usually to the actual
      depiction (shape, image) of the animal as it appears in the national
      coat of arms, not to the animal as such.

      In addition to that, some European peoples have popular concepts of a
      "national plant," food, drink, or some other symbols, e.g., the
      Edelweiss in Austria or the pork-cabbage-dumplings among the Czechs,
      but again -- those things are not formally sanctioned, and are are
      also ridiculed by some Europeans.

      I don't think the Slovaks have any such popular notion of a national
      flower or animal but if pressed, some would probably say that the
      eagle is, or at least was, a symbol of freedom and of their national
      movement in the 19th century. And they certainly see the bryndzove
      halusky as their national dish (they actually eat it rather rarely but
      they tend to impose it on their foreign visitors as something typical).

      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu





      __________ Informacia od NOD32 1958 (20070105) __________

      Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Votruba
      ... This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic decision by the Habsburg
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 6, 2007
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        > Lime tree is the all-slav tree (soft), while the
        > oak is a german symbol(hard).

        This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the
        Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic
        decision by the Habsburg Slavs' delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress
        in 1848. Until then the mythologies concerning both the oak and the
        lime/linden tree were common among the Slavs just like among other
        European folks. For instance, the Slovak poet Jan Kollar, whose works
        became quite influential among the Slavic activists in the Habsburg
        monarchy, still used the oak as a symbol of Slavdom (and, in a veiled
        way, Russia) in his Daughter of Slava in 1824.

        From among all the Europeans it was only among the Germanic peoples
        that the oak became a dominant mythological tree, and touted so by
        their activists. So the delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress decided
        that they would "de-select" the oak from their images of Slavic
        mythology and tout the linden.

        Anthropologists say that the oak was the "residence" of the powerful
        Slavic god of thunder and lightning (Perun). That paralleled the role
        of the tree in other European mythologies. For instance, the Romans
        associated the oak with the reigning god Jupiter (also the master of
        thunder).

        The symbolic polarization oak=hard-x-linden=soft ("masculine --
        feminine") is old, too, derived from the properties of the wood, of
        course. In Ovid's presumably Ancient Greek myth of Philemon and
        Baucis, he is turned into an oak and she into a linden. The Slavic
        activists tied this in with the German philosopher Herder's
        description of the Slavs, in which he called them peaceful, opposed to
        wars, and the myth of the dove-like Slavs and their linden tree set
        sail in 1848. The prominent 19th century Slovak activist Ludovit Stur
        said, for instance, that "the linden blooms after the oak," meaning
        that the Slavs would get ahead of the Germans (I wonder how many
        people are still holding their breath).


        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
      • Vladimir Bohinc
        Dear Martin, Symbolics is not a matter of accidental choice, but always has something to it. Just my statement. Not that I appose to anything you wrote. I
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 7, 2007
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          Dear Martin,
          Symbolics is not a matter of accidental choice, but always has something to it. Just my statement. Not that I appose to anything you wrote. I agree completely.
          It was and in many cases still is a custom, that the linden was planted in the middle of a slavic village or settlement. The elders then had their meetings under it's rich shadow.
          Maybe the oldest linden tree is in front of the Bojnice castle. If I am not mistaking, it is about 750 years old. So I would guess, this linden as a slavic symbol is very very old.
          Comparing the german and slavic ethnicity ,both oak and linden tree correspond very much to the characteristics of the people.
          A Slav would shed a tear rather than a german. Be it in joy or sorrow. A male Slav would kiss another male Slav, while a German would not.
          Vladimir

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Martin Votruba
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:58 AM
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: national bird & flower


          > Lime tree is the all-slav tree (soft), while the
          > oak is a german symbol(hard).

          This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the
          Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic
          decision by the Habsburg Slavs' delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress
          in 1848. Until then the mythologies concerning both the oak and the
          lime/linden tree were common among the Slavs just like among other
          European folks. For instance, the Slovak poet Jan Kollar, whose works
          became quite influential among the Slavic activists in the Habsburg
          monarchy, still used the oak as a symbol of Slavdom (and, in a veiled
          way, Russia) in his Daughter of Slava in 1824.

          From among all the Europeans it was only among the Germanic peoples
          that the oak became a dominant mythological tree, and touted so by
          their activists. So the delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress decided
          that they would "de-select" the oak from their images of Slavic
          mythology and tout the linden.

          Anthropologists say that the oak was the "residence" of the powerful
          Slavic god of thunder and lightning (Perun). That paralleled the role
          of the tree in other European mythologies. For instance, the Romans
          associated the oak with the reigning god Jupiter (also the master of
          thunder).

          The symbolic polarization oak=hard-x-linden=soft ("masculine --
          feminine") is old, too, derived from the properties of the wood, of
          course. In Ovid's presumably Ancient Greek myth of Philemon and
          Baucis, he is turned into an oak and she into a linden. The Slavic
          activists tied this in with the German philosopher Herder's
          description of the Slavs, in which he called them peaceful, opposed to
          wars, and the myth of the dove-like Slavs and their linden tree set
          sail in 1848. The prominent 19th century Slovak activist Ludovit Stur
          said, for instance, that "the linden blooms after the oak," meaning
          that the Slavs would get ahead of the Germans (I wonder how many
          people are still holding their breath).

          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu





          __________ Informacia od NOD32 1958 (20070105) __________

          Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
          http://www.eset.sk


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • cvargacvarga
          The oak is very important in tradition German lore. At one time the German deck of card had three suits and the oak leaf was one of them. (I can t quite
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 7, 2007
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            The oak is very important in tradition German lore. At one time the German deck of card
            had three suits and the oak leaf was one of them. (I can't quite remember the other two,
            but I think acorns were another.)

            Colin

            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Lime tree is the all-slav tree (soft), while the
            > > oak is a german symbol(hard).
            >
            > This is an interesting topic, Vladimir (it was funny about the
            > Austrian symbol!). That opposition was actually a programmatic
            > decision by the Habsburg Slavs' delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress
            > in 1848. Until then the mythologies concerning both the oak and the
            > lime/linden tree were common among the Slavs just like among other
            > European folks. For instance, the Slovak poet Jan Kollar, whose works
            > became quite influential among the Slavic activists in the Habsburg
            > monarchy, still used the oak as a symbol of Slavdom (and, in a veiled
            > way, Russia) in his Daughter of Slava in 1824.
            >
            > From among all the Europeans it was only among the Germanic peoples
            > that the oak became a dominant mythological tree, and touted so by
            > their activists. So the delegates to the Pan-Slavic Congress decided
            > that they would "de-select" the oak from their images of Slavic
            > mythology and tout the linden.
            >
            > Anthropologists say that the oak was the "residence" of the powerful
            > Slavic god of thunder and lightning (Perun). That paralleled the role
            > of the tree in other European mythologies. For instance, the Romans
            > associated the oak with the reigning god Jupiter (also the master of
            > thunder).
            >
            > The symbolic polarization oak=hard-x-linden=soft ("masculine --
            > feminine") is old, too, derived from the properties of the wood, of
            > course. In Ovid's presumably Ancient Greek myth of Philemon and
            > Baucis, he is turned into an oak and she into a linden. The Slavic
            > activists tied this in with the German philosopher Herder's
            > description of the Slavs, in which he called them peaceful, opposed to
            > wars, and the myth of the dove-like Slavs and their linden tree set
            > sail in 1848. The prominent 19th century Slovak activist Ludovit Stur
            > said, for instance, that "the linden blooms after the oak," meaning
            > that the Slavs would get ahead of the Germans (I wonder how many
            > people are still holding their breath).
            >
            >
            > Martin
            >
            > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            >
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