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marriage records

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  • J. Michutka
    Spending a rainy morning transcribing village marriage records.......and of course, questions arise! Can any generalizations be made (Martin? Vladimir?) about
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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      Spending a rainy morning transcribing village marriage records.......and of
      course, questions arise!

      Can any generalizations be made (Martin? Vladimir?) about May - December
      marriages? I keep running across men (usually widowers) in their 40s and
      50s marrying girls half their age (sometimes I do find widowers marrying
      women in their own age range, but that doesn't provoke any speculation!);
      and occasionally I find a young (20s) single guy marrying a woman twice his
      age and likely out of her child-bearing years. Is there anything to be
      inferred from this, eg the older partner was economically attractive enough
      to "win" a young spouse, or the young spouse was socially/economically
      lower on the ladder and had to settle for a marriage less likely to produce
      children and more likely to result in widowhood down the road? Or am I
      trying to read too much into these things, and they were all love matches? ;)

      Unfortunately, while the family names in the village have become quite
      familiar to me, I have very little indication of economic and social standings.

      BTW, the time period I'm working in is the 1870s and 1880s.

      Yeah, I know, this falls under "idle speculation" and I should get a real
      job.....

      Julie Michutka
      jmm@...
    • Vladimir Bohinc
      Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married somebody 130 years ago? Love? Julie,....... Vladimir ... From: J. Michutka To:
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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        Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married somebody 130 years ago? Love?
        Julie,.......
        Vladimir

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: J. Michutka
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:50 PM
        Subject: [Slovak-World] marriage records


        Spending a rainy morning transcribing village marriage records.......and of
        course, questions arise!

        Can any generalizations be made (Martin? Vladimir?) about May - December
        marriages? I keep running across men (usually widowers) in their 40s and
        50s marrying girls half their age (sometimes I do find widowers marrying
        women in their own age range, but that doesn't provoke any speculation!);
        and occasionally I find a young (20s) single guy marrying a woman twice his
        age and likely out of her child-bearing years. Is there anything to be
        inferred from this, eg the older partner was economically attractive enough
        to "win" a young spouse, or the young spouse was socially/economically
        lower on the ladder and had to settle for a marriage less likely to produce
        children and more likely to result in widowhood down the road? Or am I
        trying to read too much into these things, and they were all love matches? ;)

        Unfortunately, while the family names in the village have become quite
        familiar to me, I have very little indication of economic and social standings.

        BTW, the time period I'm working in is the 1870s and 1880s.

        Yeah, I know, this falls under "idle speculation" and I should get a real
        job.....

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@...





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mader, Michelle A. (GRC-CHD0)
        My best guess for the men would have been that the women were dying in childbirth so there weren t as many older women available. On the other hand, you had
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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          My best guess for the men would have been that the women
          were dying in childbirth so there weren't as many older
          women available. On the other hand, you had older men who
          were left with children to raise and needed help. They
          were also able to provide for a younger wife.

          Then again, sometimes it's just love. My parents were
          13 yrs. apart, my DH's parents were 12 yrs. apart, and
          DH and I are 11 yrs. apart.

          Michelle Maco Mader
          Cleveland, Ohio USA
        • J. Michutka
          ... Just trying to get a picture of the social conditions of the time, with limited resources......too limited! I m probably trying to read too much into the
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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            At 05:37 PM 9/29/2006 +0200, you wrote:
            >Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married somebody
            >130 years ago? Love?
            >Julie,.......


            Just trying to get a picture of the social conditions of the time, with
            limited resources......too limited! I'm probably trying to read too much
            into the data.

            Yeah, maybe I should go weed the garden, it would probably be more productive!

            Julie
          • durisek
            Man, woman, birth, death, infinity..... Zuzka Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married somebody 130 years ago? Love? Julie,.......
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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              Man, woman, birth, death, infinity.....

              Zuzka

              Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married somebody 130 years ago? Love?
              Julie,.......
              Vladimir


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Martin Votruba
              ... I d support that, Michelle; and the same, of course, applied to marriages between older women and younger men. Fiction and plays from the 19th century
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                > On the other hand, you had older men who
                > were left with children to raise and needed help.

                I'd support that, Michelle; and the same, of course, applied to
                marriages between older women and younger men. Fiction and plays from
                the 19th century indicate that marriages among the farmers were rather
                commonly based on consolidation of real estate and other material
                concerns, not as much on romantic love. Moreover, the number of the
                available potential spouses was fairly limited at any given time since
                their pool was mostly circumscribed by the person's village and a few
                surrounding ones. The stories by Timrava discussed on SK-W a couple
                of years ago showed that, too. One of the best known Slovak plays
                (from 1909) is a comedy making fun of village matchmakers and parents
                eager to arrange their children's marriages.


                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
              • Helen Fedor
                My parents were matched by their families. They lived in villages about 3 miles apart, but the 2 families had outlying fields next to each other. They got
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                  My parents were "matched" by their families. They lived in villages about 3 miles apart, but the 2 families had outlying fields next to each other. They got to know each other when they'd break for dinner together (each eating their own food). My mother was 19 when she got married. She was considered to be almost an old maid!

                  Helen



                  Helen Fedor
                  European Division
                  Library of Congress
                  10 E. First St., S.E.
                  Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                  tel. (202) 707-3704
                  fax (202) 707-8482
                  <hfed@...>
                  >>> votrubam@... 09/29/06 1:18 PM >>>
                  > On the other hand, you had older men who
                  > were left with children to raise and needed help.

                  I'd support that, Michelle; and the same, of course, applied to
                  marriages between older women and younger men. Fiction and plays from
                  the 19th century indicate that marriages among the farmers were rather
                  commonly based on consolidation of real estate and other material
                  concerns, not as much on romantic love. Moreover, the number of the
                  available potential spouses was fairly limited at any given time since
                  their pool was mostly circumscribed by the person's village and a few
                  surrounding ones. The stories by Timrava discussed on SK-W a couple
                  of years ago showed that, too. One of the best known Slovak plays
                  (from 1909) is a comedy making fun of village matchmakers and parents
                  eager to arrange their children's marriages.


                  Martin

                  votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                • Martin Votruba
                  ... A traditional time for marriages was November-December, Julie. March used to have the highest rate of births, meaning that the children were conceived in
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                    > about May - December marriages?

                    A traditional time for marriages was November-December, Julie. March
                    used to have the highest rate of births, meaning that the children
                    were conceived in July. One factor that played a role in that was
                    premarital sex. After some traditional spring courting, the July
                    weather made intimate encounters easy, it was the time when people
                    spent a few days outside the villages mowing the distant meadows, and
                    there was otherwise a brief lull in field work. Once the pregnancies
                    were determined (sometimes only after they began to show), it was time
                    to arrange marriages (not necessarily with the biological father even
                    if there was only one undisputed candidate).

                    Naturally, this was just one detectable pattern. Weddings took place
                    for a variety of reasons in the fall, as well as throughout the year.
                    For instance, most field work was finished by November so there was
                    free time; the supplies of food from the harvest and traditional fall
                    slaughters were at their highest, available for a "proper" wedding feast.


                    Martin

                    votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                  • J. Michutka
                    ... Ooops, sorry, I should have been less colloquial. A May-December marriage (or romance) is between one person in the spring of life and another in the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                      At 06:15 PM 9/29/2006 +0000, you wrote:
                      > > about May - December marriages?


                      >A traditional time for marriages was November-December, Julie.

                      Ooops, sorry, I should have been less colloquial. A May-December marriage
                      (or romance) is between one person in the "spring" of life and another in
                      the autumn or winter of life.......a young person with a much older person.

                      So far I've transcribed the marriages for 1869-1882, about 370
                      marriages. I figured I might as well chart of few things, it's so easy to
                      do on the computer. Believe it or not, NO December marriages, a few in
                      January, a few more in Feb, none in Lent, uptick in Sept-Nov compared to
                      the spring, fewer in summer than in spring. My sample is small,
                      though--from 1869-1880 the number of marriages per year varies from 18 to
                      31, probably an average of mid-20s. In 1881 there is a sudden increase, 43
                      marriages in 1881, 47 in 1882; I haven't looked ahead to see how long that
                      trend lasts, nor do I know why--it might be time to hit the local history
                      books to see if there is an change in local circumstances.

                      > Once the pregnancies
                      >were determined (sometimes only after they began to show), it was time
                      >to arrange marriages (not necessarily with the biological father even
                      >if there was only one undisputed candidate).

                      Really? Whaddya know...

                      I have very occasionally come across a baptismal record where the stated
                      father is not the same as the mother's husband; it seems to have caused the
                      recording priest some consternation.

                      As always, thanks for the interesting information!
                    • Andrea Vangor
                      I have been intrigued by these marriages also. The likely explanation for younger men marrying older women is economic -- but not as we might think. The
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                        I have been intrigued by these marriages also. The likely explanation for younger men marrying older women is economic -- but not as we might think. The marvelous book Proper Peasants describes this phenomenon in a Magyar village. If the young man was very well-off as the heir to property, he might marry quite early, and to the wealthiest eligible woman no matter her age. I saw one marriage of a youth of fifteen or sixteen to a woman in her '30's. It would be interesting to track these marriages through time, especially with tax records to document their economic status.



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: J. Michutka
                        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:58 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records


                        At 06:15 PM 9/29/2006 +0000, you wrote:
                        > > about May - December marriages?

                        >A traditional time for marriages was November-December, Julie.

                        Ooops, sorry, I should have been less colloquial. A May-December marriage
                        (or romance) is between one person in the "spring" of life and another in
                        the autumn or winter of life.......a young person with a much older person.

                        So far I've transcribed the marriages for 1869-1882, about 370
                        marriages. I figured I might as well chart of few things, it's so easy to
                        do on the computer. Believe it or not, NO December marriages, a few in
                        January, a few more in Feb, none in Lent, uptick in Sept-Nov compared to
                        the spring, fewer in summer than in spring. My sample is small,
                        though--from 1869-1880 the number of marriages per year varies from 18 to
                        31, probably an average of mid-20s. In 1881 there is a sudden increase, 43
                        marriages in 1881, 47 in 1882; I haven't looked ahead to see how long that
                        trend lasts, nor do I know why--it might be time to hit the local history
                        books to see if there is an change in local circumstances.

                        > Once the pregnancies
                        >were determined (sometimes only after they began to show), it was time
                        >to arrange marriages (not necessarily with the biological father even
                        >if there was only one undisputed candidate).

                        Really? Whaddya know...

                        I have very occasionally come across a baptismal record where the stated
                        father is not the same as the mother's husband; it seems to have caused the
                        recording priest some consternation.

                        As always, thanks for the interesting information!





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Helen Fedor
                        Martin, I think you misunderstood. A May-December marriage means a young woman marrying a much older man. H Helen Fedor European Division Library of
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                          Martin, I think you misunderstood. A "May-December marriage" means a young woman marrying a much older man.

                          H



                          Helen Fedor
                          European Division
                          Library of Congress
                          10 E. First St., S.E.
                          Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                          tel. (202) 707-3704
                          fax (202) 707-8482
                          <hfed@...>
                          >>> votrubam@... 09/29/06 2:15 PM >>>
                          > about May - December marriages?

                          A traditional time for marriages was November-December, Julie. March
                          used to have the highest rate of births, meaning that the children
                          were conceived in July. One factor that played a role in that was
                          premarital sex. After some traditional spring courting, the July
                          weather made intimate encounters easy, it was the time when people
                          spent a few days outside the villages mowing the distant meadows, and
                          there was otherwise a brief lull in field work. Once the pregnancies
                          were determined (sometimes only after they began to show), it was time
                          to arrange marriages (not necessarily with the biological father even
                          if there was only one undisputed candidate).

                          Naturally, this was just one detectable pattern. Weddings took place
                          for a variety of reasons in the fall, as well as throughout the year.
                          For instance, most field work was finished by November so there was
                          free time; the supplies of food from the harvest and traditional fall
                          slaughters were at their highest, available for a "proper" wedding feast.


                          Martin

                          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                        • Helen Fedor
                          Make that a _young_ woman... H Helen Fedor European Division Library of Congress 10 E. First St., S.E. Washington, D.C. 20540-4830 tel. (202) 707-3704 fax
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                            Make that a _young_ woman...

                            H


                            Helen Fedor
                            European Division
                            Library of Congress
                            10 E. First St., S.E.
                            Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                            tel. (202) 707-3704
                            fax (202) 707-8482
                            <hfed@...>
                            >>> hfed@... 09/29/06 4:51 PM >>>
                            Martin, I think you misunderstood. A "May-December marriage" means a young woman marrying a much older man.

                            H



                            Helen Fedor
                            European Division
                            Library of Congress
                            10 E. First St., S.E.
                            Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                            tel. (202) 707-3704
                            fax (202) 707-8482
                            <hfed@...>
                            >>> votrubam@... 09/29/06 2:15 PM >>>
                            > about May - December marriages?

                            A traditional time for marriages was November-December, Julie. March
                            used to have the highest rate of births, meaning that the children
                            were conceived in July. One factor that played a role in that was
                            premarital sex. After some traditional spring courting, the July
                            weather made intimate encounters easy, it was the time when people
                            spent a few days outside the villages mowing the distant meadows, and
                            there was otherwise a brief lull in field work. Once the pregnancies
                            were determined (sometimes only after they began to show), it was time
                            to arrange marriages (not necessarily with the biological father even
                            if there was only one undisputed candidate).

                            Naturally, this was just one detectable pattern. Weddings took place
                            for a variety of reasons in the fall, as well as throughout the year.
                            For instance, most field work was finished by November so there was
                            free time; the supplies of food from the harvest and traditional fall
                            slaughters were at their highest, available for a "proper" wedding feast.


                            Martin

                            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                          • Fred G Kovalyak
                            I find this Subject very Interesting. Often wondered how the people met back then ......... Thaanx, FGK,Columbia,Md ...
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                              I find this Subject very Interesting.
                              Often wondered how the people met back then .........
                              Thaanx, FGK,Columbia,Md

                              --- Helen Fedor wrote:

                              > My parents were "matched" by their families. They lived in villages about 3 miles
                              > apart, but the 2 families had outlying fields next to each other. They got to
                              > know each other when they'd break for dinner together (each eating their own
                              > food). My mother was 19 when she got married. She was considered to be almost an
                              > old maid!
                              >
                              > Helen Fedor
                              > European Division
                              > Library of Congress
                              > 10 E. First St., S.E.
                              > Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                              > tel. (202) 707-3704
                              > fax (202) 707-8482
                              > <hfed@>

                              > >>> votrubam@ 09/29/06 1:18 PM >>>
                              > > On the other hand, you had older men who
                              > > were left with children to raise and needed help.
                              >
                              > I'd support that, Michelle; and the same, of course, applied to
                              > marriages between older women and younger men. Fiction and plays from
                              > the 19th century indicate that marriages among the farmers were rather
                              > commonly based on consolidation of real estate and other material
                              > concerns, not as much on romantic love. Moreover, the number of the
                              > available potential spouses was fairly limited at any given time since
                              > their pool was mostly circumscribed by the person's village and a few
                              > surrounding ones. The stories by Timrava discussed on SK-W a couple
                              > of years ago showed that, too. One of the best known Slovak plays
                              > (from 1909) is a comedy making fun of village matchmakers and parents
                              > eager to arrange their children's marriages.
                              >
                              >
                              > Martin
                              >
                              > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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                            • amiak27
                              The history I have read has always impressed me that life as a single was simply close to impossible and a partnership was a life necessity. no one person
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                                The history I have read has always impressed me that life as a
                                single was simply close to impossible and a partnership was a life
                                necessity. no one person could run a farm and a house in a
                                sustainable fashion, and even less bring up kids as well.

                                On the side, this ties in to people I have seen "go back to nature"
                                as a lifestyle, trying to be self-sufficient. Within a few yers
                                they learn how our ancestors worked themselves to death by 40, even
                                when they had a good partner!

                                Ron

                                --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married
                                somebody 130 years ago? Love?
                                > Julie,.......
                                > Vladimir
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: J. Michutka
                                > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:50 PM
                                > Subject: [Slovak-World] marriage records
                                >
                                >
                                > Spending a rainy morning transcribing village marriage
                                records.......and of
                                > course, questions arise!
                                >
                                > Can any generalizations be made (Martin? Vladimir?) about May -
                                December
                                > marriages? I keep running across men (usually widowers) in their
                                40s and
                                > 50s marrying girls half their age (sometimes I do find widowers
                                marrying
                                > women in their own age range, but that doesn't provoke any
                                speculation!);
                                > and occasionally I find a young (20s) single guy marrying a
                                woman twice his
                                > age and likely out of her child-bearing years. Is there anything
                                to be
                                > inferred from this, eg the older partner was economically
                                attractive enough
                                > to "win" a young spouse, or the young spouse was
                                socially/economically
                                > lower on the ladder and had to settle for a marriage less likely
                                to produce
                                > children and more likely to result in widowhood down the road?
                                Or am I
                                > trying to read too much into these things, and they were all
                                love matches? ;)
                                >
                                > Unfortunately, while the family names in the village have become
                                quite
                                > familiar to me, I have very little indication of economic and
                                social standings.
                                >
                                > BTW, the time period I'm working in is the 1870s and 1880s.
                                >
                                > Yeah, I know, this falls under "idle speculation" and I should
                                get a real
                                > job.....
                                >
                                > Julie Michutka
                                > jmm@...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.1771 (20060923) __________
                                >
                                > Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
                                > http://www.eset.sk
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • helene cincebeaux
                                interesting Ron some babies were born after the 18 year olds went off to service - (recruits had to be unmarried) years later you see a notation in the records
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 29, 2006
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                                  interesting Ron

                                  some babies were born after the 18 year olds went off to service - (recruits had to be unmarried) years later you see a notation in the records that the couple eventually got married and legitmacized the child.
                                  helene

                                  amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:
                                  The history I have read has always impressed me that life as a
                                  single was simply close to impossible and a partnership was a life
                                  necessity. no one person could run a farm and a house in a
                                  sustainable fashion, and even less bring up kids as well.

                                  On the side, this ties in to people I have seen "go back to nature"
                                  as a lifestyle, trying to be self-sufficient. Within a few yers
                                  they learn how our ancestors worked themselves to death by 40, even
                                  when they had a good partner!

                                  Ron

                                  --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why somebody married
                                  somebody 130 years ago? Love?
                                  > Julie,.......
                                  > Vladimir
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: J. Michutka
                                  > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:50 PM
                                  > Subject: [Slovak-World] marriage records
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Spending a rainy morning transcribing village marriage
                                  records.......and of
                                  > course, questions arise!
                                  >
                                  > Can any generalizations be made (Martin? Vladimir?) about May -
                                  December
                                  > marriages? I keep running across men (usually widowers) in their
                                  40s and
                                  > 50s marrying girls half their age (sometimes I do find widowers
                                  marrying
                                  > women in their own age range, but that doesn't provoke any
                                  speculation!);
                                  > and occasionally I find a young (20s) single guy marrying a
                                  woman twice his
                                  > age and likely out of her child-bearing years. Is there anything
                                  to be
                                  > inferred from this, eg the older partner was economically
                                  attractive enough
                                  > to "win" a young spouse, or the young spouse was
                                  socially/economically
                                  > lower on the ladder and had to settle for a marriage less likely
                                  to produce
                                  > children and more likely to result in widowhood down the road?
                                  Or am I
                                  > trying to read too much into these things, and they were all
                                  love matches? ;)
                                  >
                                  > Unfortunately, while the family names in the village have become
                                  quite
                                  > familiar to me, I have very little indication of economic and
                                  social standings.
                                  >
                                  > BTW, the time period I'm working in is the 1870s and 1880s.
                                  >
                                  > Yeah, I know, this falls under "idle speculation" and I should
                                  get a real
                                  > job.....
                                  >
                                  > Julie Michutka
                                  > jmm@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.1771 (20060923) __________
                                  >
                                  > Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
                                  > http://www.eset.sk
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >






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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Martin Votruba
                                  ... That s very true about the farmers. The others didn t face quite the same burden, but societal pressures made marriage very common. The following doesn t
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 30, 2006
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                                    > life as a single was simply close to impossible and
                                    > a partnership was a life necessity. no one person
                                    > could run a farm and a house in a sustainable fashion

                                    That's very true about the farmers. The others didn't face quite the
                                    same burden, but societal pressures made marriage very common. The
                                    following doesn't contradict what you say, Ron. There were single
                                    people (the largest group being the Roman Catholic clergy and nuns:
                                    that's a special issue) but they don't show up as much when we look at
                                    the past through our ancestors because they mostly died without
                                    children. Nor do they show up as "single households," because the
                                    single men and women stayed, lived, worked and died with their
                                    families on their native farmsteads, so to say.

                                    Among the non-farmers, single women mostly stayed with their birth
                                    family, too. Among the most prominent men in the 19th century,
                                    Ludovit Stur (the largest number of Slovaks calls him their most
                                    important historical figure), Jan Kalinciak, one of the best known
                                    writers, Jan Botto, the author of the best known poem The Death of
                                    Janosik, and other historical figures not quite as highly recognized
                                    were single all their lives.

                                    But except for Stur whose life is a focus in the school curriculum, I
                                    bet than no one knows which of the historical figures they recognize
                                    were single -- another important reason for our not knowing about the
                                    single people in the past: unless we are told explicitly that someone
                                    was single, we assume by default that s/he was married.


                                    Martin

                                    votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                                  • Caye Caswick
                                    I d say near-impossible, but not completely impossible -- depending on the acrage -- kids, probably not tho -- but if you didn t have distractions you could
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 30, 2006
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                                      I'd say near-impossible, but not completely impossible
                                      -- depending on the acrage -- kids, probably not tho
                                      -- but if you didn't have distractions you could
                                      probably support yourself -- minimum garden and a few
                                      animals, nothing too complicated though.

                                      You'd HAVE to get over the social stigma, of course,
                                      but if you could do that -- you might slink by all
                                      alone.



                                      Caye


                                      --- helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:

                                      > interesting Ron
                                      >
                                      > some babies were born after the 18 year olds went
                                      > off to service - (recruits had to be unmarried)
                                      > years later you see a notation in the records that
                                      > the couple eventually got married and legitmacized
                                      > the child.
                                      > helene
                                      >
                                      > amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:
                                      > The history I have read has always
                                      > impressed me that life as a
                                      > single was simply close to impossible and a
                                      > partnership was a life
                                      > necessity. no one person could run a farm and a
                                      > house in a
                                      > sustainable fashion, and even less bring up kids as
                                      > well.
                                      >
                                      > On the side, this ties in to people I have seen "go
                                      > back to nature"
                                      > as a lifestyle, trying to be self-sufficient. Within
                                      > a few yers
                                      > they learn how our ancestors worked themselves to
                                      > death by 40, even
                                      > when they had a good partner!
                                      >
                                      > Ron
                                      >
                                      > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir
                                      > Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Julie, you are trying to develop a theory why
                                      > somebody married
                                      > somebody 130 years ago? Love?
                                      > > Julie,.......
                                      > > Vladimir
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: J. Michutka
                                      > > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:50 PM
                                      > > Subject: [Slovak-World] marriage records
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Spending a rainy morning transcribing village
                                      > marriage
                                      > records.......and of
                                      > > course, questions arise!
                                      > >
                                      > > Can any generalizations be made (Martin?
                                      > Vladimir?) about May -
                                      > December
                                      > > marriages? I keep running across men (usually
                                      > widowers) in their
                                      > 40s and
                                      > > 50s marrying girls half their age (sometimes I do
                                      > find widowers
                                      > marrying
                                      > > women in their own age range, but that doesn't
                                      > provoke any
                                      > speculation!);
                                      > > and occasionally I find a young (20s) single guy
                                      > marrying a
                                      > woman twice his
                                      > > age and likely out of her child-bearing years. Is
                                      > there anything
                                      > to be
                                      > > inferred from this, eg the older partner was
                                      > economically
                                      > attractive enough
                                      > > to "win" a young spouse, or the young spouse was
                                      > socially/economically
                                      > > lower on the ladder and had to settle for a
                                      > marriage less likely
                                      > to produce
                                      > > children and more likely to result in widowhood
                                      > down the road?
                                      > Or am I
                                      > > trying to read too much into these things, and
                                      > they were all
                                      > love matches? ;)
                                      > >
                                      > > Unfortunately, while the family names in the
                                      > village have become
                                      > quite
                                      > > familiar to me, I have very little indication of
                                      > economic and
                                      > social standings.
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW, the time period I'm working in is the 1870s
                                      > and 1880s.
                                      > >
                                      > > Yeah, I know, this falls under "idle speculation"
                                      > and I should
                                      > get a real
                                      > > job.....
                                      > >
                                      > > Julie Michutka
                                      > > jmm@...
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.1771 (20060923)
                                      > __________
                                      > >
                                      > > Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom
                                      > NOD32.
                                      > > http://www.eset.sk
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      > removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------------------
                                      > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
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                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      > removed]
                                      >
                                      >


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                                    • e.gernat@att.net
                                      Jon, Here are the records of Circ, Slovakia with a name spelled Andreas. Ed [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 8, 2006
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                                        Jon,
                                        Here are the records of Circ, Slovakia with a name spelled Andreas.
                                        Ed

















                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • vchromoho
                                        Circ is a village inhabited almost entirely by Rusyns. In the Rusyn language, specifically in the dialect spoken in Circ and throughout most of Rusyn east
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 8, 2006
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                                          Circ is a village inhabited almost entirely by Rusyns.

                                          In the Rusyn language, specifically in the dialect spoken in Circ and
                                          throughout most of Rusyn east Slovakia, the name Andrew is

                                          Andrij <UN-dree>


                                          "Andreas" is Latin. Our people would have never called each other
                                          that, nor "Joannes", nor "Basilius". Greek Catholic church records
                                          were kept mainly in Latin and Hungarian. We must not presume that an
                                          official record giving our ancestor's name as "Andreas" means that was
                                          a name that they actually used.

                                          Even the Greek Catholic church records that are in Church
                                          Slavonic/"iazychie" usually give Church Slavonic -- not native -- name
                                          forms, e.g., "Ioann" for John. That doesn't change the fact that
                                          everyone who knew such a person called him Jan, Janko, Ivan, Janik,
                                          Ivanko, or Vanyo.

                                          RDC

                                          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, e.gernat@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Jon,
                                          > Here are the records of Circ, Slovakia with a name spelled Andreas.
                                          > Ed
                                          >
                                        • mdndmdnd
                                          Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your child. I think the most important thing is that you wish to name your son in honor of his grandfather and
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 8, 2006
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                                            Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your child. I think the
                                            most important thing is that you wish to name your son in honor of
                                            his grandfather and great-father. That is the heart of the matter,
                                            the exact spelling is not that important. By naming him Andrew, you
                                            honor those who came before him.

                                            Last year, I visited the ancesteral village of my maternal
                                            granfather in Fulianka, which is also in eastern Slovakia. I
                                            visited the graves of my great grandparents, Mihaly (Michael) and
                                            Maria Ivanko. My grandfather came to the US in 1906, and his
                                            American name was Michael Evanko.

                                            My paternal grandfather also came to the US in 1906 from Sambir,
                                            Ukraine. In Ukraine, he was known as Danko Lukaszyk, in the US he
                                            was known as Daniel Lukachick. My father was Michael Daniel
                                            Lukachick, and my name is Michael Daniel Lukachick, Jr. I am named
                                            for my father, both of my grandfathers, and my great grandfather.

                                            When Eastern Europeans came to this country, and names were
                                            Americanized, either by the immigration officials or on their own.
                                            Using an Americanized version of a European name is quite
                                            acceptable, and does not diminish the honor you are bestowing on the
                                            child's ancestors.

                                            Good Luck!

                                            Mike Lukachick

                                            -- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "vchromoho" <rcuster@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Circ is a village inhabited almost entirely by Rusyns.
                                            >
                                            > In the Rusyn language, specifically in the dialect spoken in Circ
                                            and
                                            > throughout most of Rusyn east Slovakia, the name Andrew is
                                            >
                                            > Andrij <UN-dree>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > "Andreas" is Latin. Our people would have never called each other
                                            > that, nor "Joannes", nor "Basilius". Greek Catholic church
                                            records
                                            > were kept mainly in Latin and Hungarian. We must not presume that
                                            an
                                            > official record giving our ancestor's name as "Andreas" means that
                                            was
                                            > a name that they actually used.
                                            >
                                            > Even the Greek Catholic church records that are in Church
                                            > Slavonic/"iazychie" usually give Church Slavonic -- not native --
                                            name
                                            > forms, e.g., "Ioann" for John. That doesn't change the fact that
                                            > everyone who knew such a person called him Jan, Janko, Ivan,
                                            Janik,
                                            > Ivanko, or Vanyo.
                                            >
                                            > RDC
                                            >
                                            > --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, e.gernat@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Jon,
                                            > > Here are the records of Circ, Slovakia with a name spelled
                                            Andreas.
                                            > > Ed
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Andrea Vangor
                                            I was so fortunate to find, in church records from Opina or Rank (I forget which) the Slovak nicknames by which people were really know. Ondo for Andreas.
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 8, 2006
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                                              I was so fortunate to find, in church records from Opina or Rank (I forget which) the Slovak nicknames by which people were really know. Ondo for Andreas. Miso for Michael. Borka and Bori for Barbara. Ali and Alki for Elizabetha, and so on.

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: vchromoho
                                              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:38 PM
                                              Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: marriage records


                                              Circ is a village inhabited almost entirely by Rusyns.

                                              In the Rusyn language, specifically in the dialect spoken in Circ and
                                              throughout most of Rusyn east Slovakia, the name Andrew is

                                              Andrij <UN-dree>

                                              "Andreas" is Latin. Our people would have never called each other
                                              that, nor "Joannes", nor "Basilius". Greek Catholic church records
                                              were kept mainly in Latin and Hungarian. We must not presume that an
                                              official record giving our ancestor's name as "Andreas" means that was
                                              a name that they actually used.

                                              Even the Greek Catholic church records that are in Church
                                              Slavonic/"iazychie" usually give Church Slavonic -- not native -- name
                                              forms, e.g., "Ioann" for John. That doesn't change the fact that
                                              everyone who knew such a person called him Jan, Janko, Ivan, Janik,
                                              Ivanko, or Vanyo.

                                              RDC

                                              --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, e.gernat@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Jon,
                                              > Here are the records of Circ, Slovakia with a name spelled Andreas.
                                              > Ed
                                              >





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