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"slovaks used to be 90% Lutheran"

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  • Art
    Martin says: In their drive to convert the Slovaks (who used to be 90% Lutheran) to Catholicism and keep them that way, the Habsburgs made a conversion from
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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      Martin says: In their drive to convert the Slovaks (who used
      to be 90% Lutheran) to Catholicism and keep them that way, the
      Habsburgs made a conversion from Catholicism to Lutheranism punishable
      with death.
      *****************************************************************************************************************
      Hold on here, slovaks used to be 90% Lutheran? No way, at least not in Saris or Zemplin where they had to put up with the calvinist Rakoczy regime. Sure Lutherans were influential in the western Slovak centers of culture but to say 90% of the Slovaks were Lutherans - no way.
      Sarisan Art

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • helene cincebeaux
      Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results useful to you? helene SPONSORED LINKS Slovakia phone card Slovakia call Bratislava
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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        Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results useful to you?
        helene



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      • Martin Votruba
        ... Thank you for your response, Art. I m not sure what you mean by put up -- if you mean the Calvinist Rakoczis of Transylvania, their Transylvania barely
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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          > No way, at least not in Saris or Zemplin where they had
          > to put up with the calvinist Rakoczy regime.

          Thank you for your response, Art. I'm not sure what you mean by "put
          up" -- if you mean the Calvinist Rakoczis of Transylvania, their
          Transylvania barely included any part of Saris and Zemplin that are in
          Slovakia today:

          http://tinyurl.com/ewzfl
          http://www.fishbreath.net/map.html

          Or did you mean Francis Rakoczi II? He was actually Catholic.

          That is to say, I'm not sure what period you mean, either. The
          Slovaks hadn't migrated to the now-Hungarian areas of the Kingdom
          (including the now-Hungarian parts of Saris and Zemplin, and the
          now-Romanian Transylvania) until the 18th century, after the Turks
          were driven out of the Kingdom.

          Rather than a simple denial, I'd be interested in your estimate of the
          percentage of the Slovaks (not Rusyns, Germans, or Hungarians) who
          were Lutheran in the early 17th century.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Andrea Vangor
          There are Slovak towns in south S~aris~ and in Abov dating back to the 1200 s, that were never occupied or controlled by the Turks. Further, I don t
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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            There are Slovak towns in south S~aris~ and in Abov dating back to the
            1200's, that were never occupied or controlled by the Turks. Further, I
            don't understand how any part of S~aris~ can be incorporated into modern
            Hungary.

            On a larger note, I think it important to note that during the religious
            strife of the 16th-17th centuries, the average person lived in a system
            where he or she had to adopt the faith preferences of the ruler, or
            emigrate. "Cuius regio, eius religio."



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
            To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:00 AM
            Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: "slovaks used to be 90% Lutheran"


            >> No way, at least not in Saris or Zemplin where they had
            >> to put up with the calvinist Rakoczy regime.
            >
            > Thank you for your response, Art. I'm not sure what you mean by "put
            > up" -- if you mean the Calvinist Rakoczis of Transylvania, their
            > Transylvania barely included any part of Saris and Zemplin that are in
            > Slovakia today:
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/ewzfl
            > http://www.fishbreath.net/map.html
            >
            > Or did you mean Francis Rakoczi II? He was actually Catholic.
            >
            > That is to say, I'm not sure what period you mean, either. The
            > Slovaks hadn't migrated to the now-Hungarian areas of the Kingdom
            > (including the now-Hungarian parts of Saris and Zemplin, and the
            > now-Romanian Transylvania) until the 18th century, after the Turks
            > were driven out of the Kingdom.
            >
            > Rather than a simple denial, I'd be interested in your estimate of the
            > percentage of the Slovaks (not Rusyns, Germans, or Hungarians) who
            > were Lutheran in the early 17th century.
            >
            >
            > Martin
            >
            > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            >
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            >
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          • Martin Votruba
            ... It is important to be specific about the ruler, and coutnry. In the Kingdom of Hungary, it wasn t the ruler of the country, the king, it was the landowner
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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              > during the religious strife of the 16th-17th centuries,
              > the average person lived in a system where he or she had
              > to adopt the faith preferences of the ruler, or
              > emigrate. "Cuius regio, eius religio."

              It is important to be specific about the ruler, and coutnry. In the
              Kingdom of Hungary, it wasn't the ruler of the country, the king, it
              was the landowner who decided about the religions of the serfs on his
              lands.

              Additionally, the Kingdom had its self-governing "free royal towns"
              that made their own decisions about it. And the nobility, from the
              zemans all the way to the dukes, were always free in their choice of
              religion, even during the most repressive conversions.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            • Andrea Vangor
              Yes, the ruler might be the local magnate, as occurred in Hungary, but the principle stands. For example the little archipelago of Lutheran villages east of
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                Yes, the ruler might be the local magnate, as occurred in Hungary, but the
                principle stands. For example the little archipelago of Lutheran villages
                east of Pres~ov down to Kos~ice where my grandfather lived, with Greek
                Catholics to the east, Roman Catholics to the north and west, and Dissenters
                to the south.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Martin Votruba" <votrubam@...>
                To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:02 PM
                Subject: [Slovak-World] Re: "slovaks used to be 90% Lutheran"


                >> during the religious strife of the 16th-17th centuries,
                >> the average person lived in a system where he or she had
                >> to adopt the faith preferences of the ruler, or
                >> emigrate. "Cuius regio, eius religio."
                >
                > It is important to be specific about the ruler, and coutnry. In the
                > Kingdom of Hungary, it wasn't the ruler of the country, the king, it
                > was the landowner who decided about the religions of the serfs on his
                > lands.
                >
                > Additionally, the Kingdom had its self-governing "free royal towns"
                > that made their own decisions about it. And the nobility, from the
                > zemans all the way to the dukes, were always free in their choice of
                > religion, even during the most repressive conversions.
                >
                >
                > Martin
                >
                > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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              • gergely
                No, but I would love to. Jack Gergely ... From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux Sent:
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                  No, but I would love to.

                  Jack Gergely

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux
                  Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:37 PM
                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing




                  Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results
                  useful to you?
                  helene



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                • bhewlett@verizon.net
                  I just got the kit in the mail this week (late birthday present). Will let you know how it goes. VERY interesting 2 hour DVD that comes with it about the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                    I just got the kit in the mail this week (late birthday present). Will let you know how it goes. VERY interesting 2 hour DVD that comes with it about the study so far. Takes you all over the world. I was fasinated.
                    Joyce

                    rom: gergely <gergely@...>
                    >Date: Thu Mar 23 18:20:46 CST 2006
                    >To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing

                    >No, but I would love to.
                    >
                    >Jack Gergely
                    >
                    >-----Original Message-----
                    >From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    >[mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux
                    >Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:37 PM
                    >To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results
                    >useful to you?
                    > helene
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS
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                  • Scott T. Mikusko
                    I submitted DNA samples for analysis with the National Geographic Society for their Genographic Project this year. Still waiting for the results. This is for
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                      I submitted DNA samples for analysis with the National Geographic Society
                      for their Genographic Project this year. Still waiting for the results.
                      This is for very deep ancestory, well beyond the more modern lines things
                      like nationality and ethnic groups. We're talking about human migrationd
                      from the past 60,000 years when the waves of modern homo sapiens left East
                      Africa and migrated to Eurasia.

                      The genetic markers in the DNA sequence allow researchers to trace how
                      populations moved through the centuries. They are using the Y chromosome
                      for males and mitochondrial DNA for females.

                      https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

                      There are other testing projects out there that do more
                      genealogical-oriented DNA analysis for tracing family history issues.

                      Since we're all African going back far enough, it's more interesting to
                      see how the migrations worked their way to the present. :)

                      -S



                      On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, gergely wrote:

                      > No, but I would love to.
                      >
                      > Jack Gergely
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux
                      > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:37 PM
                      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results
                      > useful to you?
                      > helene
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS
                      > Slovakia phone card Slovakia call Bratislava slovakia Hotel
                      > slovakia Slovakia phone Slovakia
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                    • Martin Votruba
                      ... I think we agreed from the start, Andrea. Since this is an open forum, I merely clarified what ruler meant in this context. I had no doubt you knew
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                        > Yes, the ruler might be the local magnate, as occurred in
                        > Hungary, but the principle stands.

                        I think we agreed from the start, Andrea. Since this is an open
                        forum, I merely clarified what "ruler" meant in this context. I had
                        no doubt you knew that, I remember you posting on it in the past.


                        Martin

                        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                      • helene cincebeaux
                        which kit did you get Joyce? bhewlett@verizon.net wrote: I just got the kit in the mail this week (late birthday present). Will let you know how it goes.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                          which kit did you get Joyce?

                          bhewlett@... wrote: I just got the kit in the mail this week (late birthday present). Will let you know how it goes. VERY interesting 2 hour DVD that comes with it about the study so far. Takes you all over the world. I was fasinated.
                          Joyce

                          rom: gergely <gergely@...>
                          >Date: Thu Mar 23 18:20:46 CST 2006
                          >To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing

                          >No, but I would love to.
                          >
                          >Jack Gergely
                          >
                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          >[mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux
                          >Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:37 PM
                          >To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results
                          >useful to you?
                          > helene
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SPONSORED LINKS
                          > Slovakia phone card Slovakia call Bratislava slovakia Hotel
                          >slovakia Slovakia phone Slovakia
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                        • sandman6294
                          ... Society ... results. I scanned the March, 2006 issue of National Geographic at the dentist s office today. This issue has a couple of interesting
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                            --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Scott T. Mikusko" <guerilla@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I submitted DNA samples for analysis with the National Geographic
                            Society
                            > for their Genographic Project this year. Still waiting for the
                            results.

                            I scanned the March, 2006 issue of National Geographic at the dentist's
                            office today. This issue has a couple of interesting articles. One is
                            on Ukraine and the other is on the results of the DNA study. For non
                            subscribers:

                            http://tinyurl.com/r8ur8

                            RU
                          • amiak27
                            My sister did it, and then I did it at her urging to locate the male side of the family. I was and am not too enthused about it. The CD is beautiful, but a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                              My sister did it, and then I did it at her urging to locate the male
                              side of the family. I was and am not too enthused about it. The CD
                              is beautiful, but a good part of the story has been broadcast on
                              National Geographic specials and / or similar stuff on Nova.

                              The basic test gives you about 12 markers which leads into the
                              basics. Step two is an optional second test resulting in 37 markers
                              which may identify people with the same markers. My sister did that
                              and has a woman in England and a few other places that have been
                              identified.

                              The general map of migration showing my group takes the ancestors
                              through the Arabian Peninsula up to central Asia, north toward Siberia
                              and then west near Belarus, and back to central Asia. My sister's
                              route was generally similar but headed farther into Europe and stayed.

                              Looking at distribution of blood types in the world told me about as
                              much ... It boils down to one woman about 40,000 years ago and one man
                              about 60,000 years ago. So we are all related according to the story.


                              Ron
                            • bhewlett@verizon.net
                              Helene, You can order by going to the N.G. web site at: https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html My daughter bought it for me, but I think
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                                Helene,

                                You can order by going to the N.G. web site at:
                                https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html>
                                My daughter bought it for me, but I think it is around $100.00



                                rom: helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...>
                                >Date: Thu Mar 23 20:29:00 CST 2006
                                >To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: RE: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing

                                >which kit did you get Joyce?
                                >
                                >bhewlett@... wrote: I just got the kit in the mail this week (late birthday present). Will let you know how it goes. VERY interesting 2 hour DVD that comes with it about the study so far. Takes you all over the world. I was fasinated.
                                >Joyce
                                >
                                >rom: gergely <gergely@...>
                                >>Date: Thu Mar 23 18:20:46 CST 2006
                                >>To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                >>Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing
                                >
                                >>No, but I would love to.
                                >>
                                >>Jack Gergely
                                >>
                                >>-----Original Message-----
                                >>From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                >>[mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux
                                >>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:37 PM
                                >>To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                >>Subject: [Slovak-World] Genetic Testing
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Curious to know if anyone has done genetic testing and were the results
                                >>useful to you?
                                >> helene
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> SPONSORED LINKS
                                >> Slovakia phone card Slovakia call Bratislava slovakia Hotel
                                >>slovakia Slovakia phone Slovakia
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                                >>
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                                >> Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >>
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                                >>
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                                >>Messenger with Voice.
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                              • David
                                Ron: This really sounds interesting. Where would I send for this DNA stuff? Also, from what I m reading, are they really giving this a good test? Or are they
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                                  Ron: This really sounds interesting. Where would I send for this DNA stuff?
                                  Also, from what I'm reading, are they really giving this a good test?
                                  Or are they just using ones name, like me with a Slavic name and
                                  using the same form letter?
                                  Dave

                                  At 12:36 AM 3/24/2006, you wrote:
                                  >My sister did it, and then I did it at her urging to locate the male
                                  >side of the family. I was and am not too enthused about it. The CD
                                  >is beautiful, but a good part of the story has been broadcast on
                                  >National Geographic specials and / or similar stuff on Nova.
                                  >
                                  >The basic test gives you about 12 markers which leads into the
                                  >basics. Step two is an optional second test resulting in 37 markers
                                  >which may identify people with the same markers. My sister did that
                                  >and has a woman in England and a few other places that have been
                                  >identified.
                                  >
                                  >The general map of migration showing my group takes the ancestors
                                  >through the Arabian Peninsula up to central Asia, north toward Siberia
                                  >and then west near Belarus, and back to central Asia. My sister's
                                  >route was generally similar but headed farther into Europe and stayed.
                                  >
                                  >Looking at distribution of blood types in the world told me about as
                                  >much ... It boils down to one woman about 40,000 years ago and one man
                                  >about 60,000 years ago. So we are all related according to the story.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Ron
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • amiak27
                                  Dave, It is associated with National Geographic, IBM and several other organizations and sponsors with big names, so it seems respectable and legitimate. That
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                                    Dave,

                                    It is associated with National Geographic, IBM and several other
                                    organizations and sponsors with big names, so it seems respectable
                                    and legitimate. That would mean it fits within the actual science
                                    today, the goals of their program and are informative to us as far
                                    as their goals coincide with ours. I would have prefered several
                                    scientific papers that I could understand or that would challenge me
                                    to understand instead of the glossy CD they gave us. The CD is nice
                                    entertainment. So follow up homework on our part is necessary if we
                                    want to learn more about what the results mean.

                                    That said, they give a nice broad picture of where it all fits in to
                                    world migrations and distant times. Oh, the place to go was posted
                                    just a bit ago,
                                    go to the National Geographic web site at
                                    https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

                                    and in the lower right hand side there is a "buy the kit" button.
                                    Mine cost $107 but I have seen prices varying by about $5.

                                    I passed my results and those of our sister on to my brother and his
                                    children so they don't have to duplicate the proceedure and the
                                    expense. Of course one of the girl's will have to be tested to get
                                    a clue on their mother's side of the family.

                                    Ron



                                    --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, David <humblebe@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Ron: This really sounds interesting. Where would I send for this
                                    DNA stuff?
                                    > Also, from what I'm reading, are they really giving this a good
                                    test?
                                    > Or are they just using ones name, like me with a Slavic name and
                                    > using the same form letter?
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    > At 12:36 AM 3/24/2006, you wrote:
                                    > >My sister did it, and then I did it at her urging to locate the
                                    male > >side of the family. I was and am not too enthused about
                                    it. The CD > >is beautiful, but a good part of the story has been
                                    broadcast on > >National Geographic specials and / or similar stuff
                                    on Nova.
                                    > >
                                    > >The basic test gives you about 12 markers which leads into the
                                    > >basics. Step two is an optional second test resulting in 37
                                    markers > >which may identify people with the same markers. My
                                    sister did that > >and has a woman in England and a few other places
                                    that have been > >identified.
                                    > >
                                    > >The general map of migration showing my group takes the ancestors
                                    > >through the Arabian Peninsula up to central Asia, north toward
                                    Siberia > >and then west near Belarus, and back to central Asia. My
                                    sister's > >route was generally similar but headed farther into
                                    Europe and stayed.
                                    > >
                                    > >Looking at distribution of blood types in the world told me about
                                    as > >much ... It boils down to one woman about 40,000 years ago and
                                    one man > >about 60,000 years ago. So we are all related according
                                    to the story.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >Ron
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • David
                                    Ron: Thanks a lot. I just might want to get this test, just for the fun of it. Who knows, what evil lurks in my bones of my ancestors? Dave
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Ron: Thanks a lot. I just might want to get this test, just for the
                                      fun of it. Who knows, what evil lurks in my bones of my ancestors?
                                      Dave

                                      At 03:26 PM 3/24/2006, you wrote:
                                      >Dave,
                                      >
                                      >It is associated with National Geographic, IBM and several other
                                      >organizations and sponsors with big names, so it seems respectable
                                      >and legitimate. That would mean it fits within the actual science
                                      >today, the goals of their program and are informative to us as far
                                      >as their goals coincide with ours. I would have prefered several
                                      >scientific papers that I could understand or that would challenge me
                                      >to understand instead of the glossy CD they gave us. The CD is nice
                                      >entertainment. So follow up homework on our part is necessary if we
                                      >want to learn more about what the results mean.
                                      >
                                      >That said, they give a nice broad picture of where it all fits in to
                                      >world migrations and distant times. Oh, the place to go was posted
                                      >just a bit ago,
                                      >go to the National Geographic web site at
                                      >https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
                                      >
                                      >and in the lower right hand side there is a "buy the kit" button.
                                      >Mine cost $107 but I have seen prices varying by about $5.
                                      >
                                      >I passed my results and those of our sister on to my brother and his
                                      >children so they don't have to duplicate the proceedure and the
                                      >expense. Of course one of the girl's will have to be tested to get
                                      >a clue on their mother's side of the family.
                                      >
                                      >Ron
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >--- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, David <humblebe@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Ron: This really sounds interesting. Where would I send for this
                                      >DNA stuff?
                                      > > Also, from what I'm reading, are they really giving this a good
                                      >test?
                                      > > Or are they just using ones name, like me with a Slavic name and
                                      > > using the same form letter?
                                      > > Dave
                                      > >
                                      > > At 12:36 AM 3/24/2006, you wrote:
                                      > > >My sister did it, and then I did it at her urging to locate the
                                      >male > >side of the family. I was and am not too enthused about
                                      >it. The CD > >is beautiful, but a good part of the story has been
                                      >broadcast on > >National Geographic specials and / or similar stuff
                                      >on Nova.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >The basic test gives you about 12 markers which leads into the
                                      > > >basics. Step two is an optional second test resulting in 37
                                      >markers > >which may identify people with the same markers. My
                                      >sister did that > >and has a woman in England and a few other places
                                      >that have been > >identified.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >The general map of migration showing my group takes the ancestors
                                      > > >through the Arabian Peninsula up to central Asia, north toward
                                      >Siberia > >and then west near Belarus, and back to central Asia. My
                                      >sister's > >route was generally similar but headed farther into
                                      >Europe and stayed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >Looking at distribution of blood types in the world told me about
                                      >as > >much ... It boils down to one woman about 40,000 years ago and
                                      >one man > >about 60,000 years ago. So we are all related according
                                      >to the story.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >Ron
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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