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Tokay / Tokaji Wine Region

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  • amiak27
    It is amusing to read Hungarian history and note the distinct lack of references to Slovaks. It is as if they wish to deny we ever existed. The latest
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 18, 2005
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      It is amusing to read Hungarian history and note the distinct lack
      of references to Slovaks. It is as if they wish to deny we ever
      existed. The latest example I discovered at
      http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/1063.pdf
      reading about the Tokay wine region, which extends into the southern
      region of Slovakia. I am posting this for your enjoyment and to ask
      for a sanity check - am I missing something, or have they thoroughly
      skipped us? There are several lists with ethnic references that do
      leave us out of the region entirely:

      "The way of life and culture that this has produced are still
      managed in accordance with an ancient legal system at the
      present time. This exceptional cultural tradition has ensured
      that immigrants from many nations â€" Saxons, Swabians,
      Russians, Poles, Serbs, Romanians, Armenians, and Jews â€"
      have been able to live together in this region for centuries."

      "It was an important commercial crossroads for Polish
      merchants travelling to the Balkans and elsewhere. Settlers
      were welcomed from as early as the 12th century, when
      Walloon and Italian immigrants were invited in by the
      Hungarian kings, joining the Germans who had been there
      since the beginning of the Hungarian kingdom."

      "it is surmised that viticulture was
      introduced from further east, possibly by the Kabar tribe,
      who settled in the Carpathian region alongside the
      Hungarians in the 9th or 10th century."

      This conflicts nicely with a Hungarian legend that has vinyards in
      place when the Hungarins arrive, although they do not identify the
      native people who operated them:
      http://www.kfki.hu/~rw2003/bor.html

      "According to the legend the conquering Prince Árpád was riding
      along the Bodrog river when his path was crossed by a huge hill. His
      valiant knight Turzol was first to climb the summit, and on return
      he reported to his master that the hillside was covered throughout
      with tranquil vineyards. Árpád then awarded Turzol not only with the
      hill, but also the entire area ... Wine produced in the region was
      an immense success with the pontifical court when the Cardinal
      Draskovics presented it in as early as 1362. From then on it was
      known simply as “Tokay”,..."

      From a Slovak page at
      http://www.slovakradio.sk/rsi/ang/tourism/wines/txt/0711_tokaj2.html

      the story is a bit different, Slovaks do exist:
      "The Tokay wine-growing region is situated in the southeastern tip
      of the Slovak Republic. The region straddles the border and the
      majority of the region is in Hungary. This wine-growing region is
      shared between the two countries. Unfortunately, Hungary has been
      more successful with their Tokay vineyards."

      "The establishment of Czechoslovakia in 1918 divided the Tokay
      region into two parts. The Slovak part included 6 villages and
      covered an area of 400 hectares. Today, this area is around 900
      hectares, but there has always been a dispute with Hungary over the
      acreage. No one can deny the official existence of the Slovak area,
      but its extent remains disputed."

      Perhaps some of that is overcome by events, as

      "The dispute between the countries over the right of Slovakia to use
      the name Tokaj that started in 1958 for its wines was resolved in
      2004 - the two countries came to an agreement in June 2004 under
      which wine produced on 565 hectares of land in Slovakia will be able
      to use the Tokaj label, providing that Hungarian regulations are
      applied. The basis of the agreement was that both countries will
      consider both wine region as one single region again. In effect,
      this should reintegrate the two wine regions, but will require a
      substantial adjustment to the current Slovakian wine region."
      http://www.answers.com/topic/tokaj-region-in-slovakia
    • Martin Votruba
      A good example, Ron. The problem runs quite deep and makes effective Hungarian--Slovak reconciliation quite difficult. A while back I checked the history
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 18, 2005
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        A good example, Ron. The problem runs quite deep and makes effective
        Hungarian--Slovak reconciliation quite difficult.

        A while back I checked the history schoolbook mandated for all the
        high schools in Hungary. The whole textbook, covering the period from
        the Hungarian invasion around the year 900 until the demise of the
        Kingdom, contains 2 (two) sentences that mention the Slovaks. One
        sentence concerns the 900s and the other sentence concerns the 1800s.

        Consequently, that is all even the Hungarian with a mind-bogglingly
        good memory to remember the two sentences knows about the past
        existence of their northern neighbors. The resulting absence of an
        awareness of the Slovaks as their fellow inhabitants of the Kingdom
        influences all kinds of modern Hungarians' perceptions, from
        Budapest's politics to accounts like the one you quote.

        On the other hand, the references to the Hungarians in the Slovak
        history schoolbooks are mostly negative, while after the initial
        defeat there was probably no Slovak--Hungarian ethnic strife until the
        1700s, and then not much of it until about the 1810s.

        The modern Slovaks and Hungarians do not have a clue about the abysmal
        difference between what a person from the other nation knows or does
        not know about their (mutual) past. Slovak--Hungarian
        "ethnic-national" conversations are quite ineffective due a lack of
        that recognition even among people who are interested in improving
        their relations (which are not bad on an interpersonal and economic
        levels).


        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
      • amiak27
        Thanks Martin, You put it all together quite well and rounded out the picture. Yes, it is a sad and regretable situation. The Hungarians are a great people,
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 18, 2005
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          Thanks Martin,

          You put it all together quite well and rounded out the picture.
          Yes, it is a sad and regretable situation. The Hungarians are a
          great people, and I wish I could speak their language to learn more
          about our own people - even if I have to read between the lines of
          their (our mutual) history.

          Ron

          --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Votruba"
          <votrubam@y...> wrote:
          >
          > A good example, Ron. The problem runs quite deep and makes
          effective
          > Hungarian--Slovak reconciliation quite difficult.
          >
          > A while back I checked the history schoolbook mandated for all the
          > high schools in Hungary. The whole textbook, covering the period
          from
          > the Hungarian invasion around the year 900 until the demise of the
          > Kingdom, contains 2 (two) sentences that mention the Slovaks. One
          > sentence concerns the 900s and the other sentence concerns the
          1800s.
          >
          > Consequently, that is all even the Hungarian with a mind-bogglingly
          > good memory to remember the two sentences knows about the past
          > existence of their northern neighbors. The resulting absence of an
          > awareness of the Slovaks as their fellow inhabitants of the Kingdom
          > influences all kinds of modern Hungarians' perceptions, from
          > Budapest's politics to accounts like the one you quote.
          >
          > On the other hand, the references to the Hungarians in the Slovak
          > history schoolbooks are mostly negative, while after the initial
          > defeat there was probably no Slovak--Hungarian ethnic strife until
          the
          > 1700s, and then not much of it until about the 1810s.
          >
          > The modern Slovaks and Hungarians do not have a clue about the
          abysmal
          > difference between what a person from the other nation knows or
          does
          > not know about their (mutual) past. Slovak--Hungarian
          > "ethnic-national" conversations are quite ineffective due a lack of
          > that recognition even among people who are interested in improving
          > their relations (which are not bad on an interpersonal and economic
          > levels).
          >
          >
          > Martin
          >
          > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
          >
        • krejc@aol.com
          My mother s mother was totally Slovak but spoke German, Hungarian, Polish, Slovak and then learned enough English to get by when they came to America at the
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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            My mother's mother was totally Slovak but spoke German, Hungarian, Polish,
            Slovak and then learned enough English to get by when they came to America at
            the turn of the century.
            On my father's side of the family, my grandmother spoke fairly much the same
            languages. Neither grandmother ever at all claimed to be in any way
            Hungarian. Once in a while, we thought we were German.
            In the 1950's, a cousin came to America who had been in the Hungarian
            military. (I would still love to learn about his uniform and what his rank was)
            Cousin Alex spoke as if it were a personal choice as to what you were. And he
            preferred to be known as Hungarian. He tried to persuade the family to consider
            themselves as Hungarian. Apparently, in his times, in the old country, to
            be Slovak was to be perceived as peasant and poor. But to be Hungarian was to
            be educated and better class. As far as wines went, i never realized that
            there was any other kind of wine than Tokay wine. Until we moved to a Jewish
            neighborhood and our neighbors gave us motzah crackers and Maneschevitch wine at
            Passover.
            Noreen


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mary
            Some of my Slovak family moved from the Spis area into the Tokaj area of Hungary and today are vintners. On my last visit to Bratislava, one of the other
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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              Some of my Slovak family moved from the Spis area into the Tokaj area of
              Hungary and today are vintners. On my last visit to Bratislava, one of the
              other members of the family from Gyor, Hungary, offered a bottle of the
              Puklus vineyard wine as a gift. I opened it on Christmas Eve last year so my
              American family could share in a little bit of that heritage.

              Mary Westbrook

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of krejc@...
              Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:59 AM
              To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: Tokay / Tokaji Wine Region


              My mother's mother was totally Slovak but spoke German, Hungarian, Polish,
              Slovak and then learned enough English to get by when they came to America
              at
              the turn of the century.
              On my father's side of the family, my grandmother spoke fairly much the same

              languages. Neither grandmother ever at all claimed to be in any way
              Hungarian. Once in a while, we thought we were German.
              In the 1950's, a cousin came to America who had been in the Hungarian
              military. (I would still love to learn about his uniform and what his rank
              was)
              Cousin Alex spoke as if it were a personal choice as to what you were. And
              he
              preferred to be known as Hungarian. He tried to persuade the family to
              consider
              themselves as Hungarian. Apparently, in his times, in the old country, to
              be Slovak was to be perceived as peasant and poor. But to be Hungarian was
              to
              be educated and better class. As far as wines went, i never realized that
              there was any other kind of wine than Tokay wine. Until we moved to a
              Jewish
              neighborhood and our neighbors gave us motzah crackers and Maneschevitch
              wine at
              Passover.
              Noreen


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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            • krejc@aol.com
              Mary, Do you know what influenced your family to move from Slovakia to Hungary? i think that people traveled rather freely between the two countries during
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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                Mary,
                Do you know what influenced your family to move from Slovakia to Hungary? i
                think that people traveled rather freely between the two countries during the
                first half of the century.
                Noreen


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mary
                Noreen, The family moved from the Spis castle area much earlier than the first half of this century. The story is that the Puklus family had something to do
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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                  Noreen,

                  The family moved from the Spis castle area much earlier than the first half
                  of this century. The story is that the Puklus family had something to do
                  with goats and the Spis castle, but at some point lost favor with the rulers
                  and left the castle area. The family moved to several areas that are today
                  in Slovakia and Hungary. The country boundaries were much different at the
                  time. The two "relatives" who have done the genealogy in Slovakia and
                  Hungary say there is only one Puklus family and that we are all related.
                  However, we can't find records to prove it.

                  I have tried to find some way of importing the Puklus wine to the United
                  States. So far I have had no luck.

                  Mary

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of krejc@...
                  Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 8:32 PM
                  To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: Tokay / Tokaji Wine Region


                  Mary,
                  Do you know what influenced your family to move from Slovakia to Hungary? i

                  think that people traveled rather freely between the two countries during
                  the
                  first half of the century.
                  Noreen


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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