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Re: [Slovak-World] Karpatendeutsche

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  • William C. Wormuth
    Kar Phaten doh eech
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 27, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Kar Phaten doh eech

      Claudia Medvik wrote:

      > Dear Jim,
      >
      > I'm linguistically ignorant. How do you pronounce Karpatendeutsche?
      >
      > Claudia
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Jim Downs" <downsjd@...>
      > To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:16 PM
      > Subject: [Slovak-World] Karpatendeutsche
      >
      > Hi Bill,
      > Regarding Slovak-Germans (Karpatendeutscher), contact Dr. Thomas Reimer at
      > treimer@.... He is a university professor. His parents were born in
      > Slovakia and Dr. Reimer is very active in Karpatendeutsche activities. He
      > can send you copies of a lot of material.
      > Jim
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Bill Tarkulich
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:33 AM
      > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name
      >
      > Hello Vladimir,
      > This is most interesting. I am a history buff and have had a helluva
      > time collecting historical accounts of any of the details of day to day
      > life of peasants. I've been collecting various historical accounts of
      > the region, especially the Rusyn region in NE Slovakia. I've got some
      > historical writing by Rusyns local to the region which is most
      > interesting and illuminating. The only regional stuff done, out of
      > Snina was from the 70s and 80s and reeked of socialistic rhetoric
      > ("baloney" in mixed company) - you had to read between every other line
      > for truth. It's also interesting to watch the same writer rewriting his
      > 1970s material into 2000-era material to promote the region. The
      > references to "Our great and foreverafter comrades of the Soviet Union"
      > are no more....
      >
      > It's true that they spend more time documenting the property owners than
      > the customs and traditions of their own region. I suppose this may
      > because they have been so oppressed for so long. It's kind of like the
      > "beaten dog syndrome." After a while, the response become ingrained.
      >
      > I'd be interested in what German titles you might recommend for the
      > Carpathian region, especially inhabited by the Rusyns. Who are these
      > Germans doing the writings? Academics? I wonder what holds their
      > interest in a land that they are only marginally affilliated with in the
      > present times.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Bill Tarkulich
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:03 AM
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name
      >
      > Dear Bill,
      > what I find interesting is, that the Germans have much better historical
      > materials about the settlers, than other ethnics. If you could only read
      > german, to see into what kind of details they are going. Writing mostly
      > about ordinary people and their lives. In slovak settlement history, you
      > can only read about the landlors. Slovakia was settled meny times
      > through various ethnic groups, but very few data and stories are
      > available. Regards Vladimir
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Bill Tarkulich
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:42 PM
      > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name
      >
      > Hello Vladimir,
      >
      > Thank you for your helpful reply. I too, am doing this a a "favor" to
      > others, (providing "bites" of data). Since this is Helene's project,
      > we'll just give her the data and let her draw her own conclusions. It
      > is always good to have two heads review the information.
      >
      > Helene, you'll need to ascertain that the name(s) we've advised you on
      > do fit the information provided and the cursive script. You need to
      > take the next step to corroborate the data.
      > That said, we're both pointing at the same region, which is today's
      > lower Hungary, or Romania. So I doubt that this is on your
      > itinerary...
      >
      > Good Luck,
      > Bill Tarkulich
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:24 AM
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name
      >
      > Dear Bill,
      > Regarding Tergowa district, I think, I took this from some german
      > page,
      > and it probably means the district as of today, not then. The then
      > districts are on the map, which I provided the link for. I think it's
      > the #13, Ujmoldoval, yes. I am quite a busy man, so I do not have much
      > time to study such details for everyone. Here and there I take a
      > "break"
      > and try this or that. This is why I said, you can start from here. If
      > the spelling provided was misspelled, and there can be several close
      > interpretations, then a complete information of the source is needed
      > and
      > a careful analysis and comparison of all available data is required in
      > order to be sure, which place was meant. For this, I unfortunately do
      > not have time, although I am always attracted by such enigmas.
      > Regards,
      > Vladimir
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Bill Tarkulich
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc: Helenezx@...
      > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:08 PM
      > Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village
      > name
      >
      > re:
      > "Ebethal or Eibenshal
      > Weitzenied"
      >
      > Vladimir :
      > With all due respect to your fine work,
      >
      > 1. I will agree with you on Weitzenied = WEITZENRIED, but how did
      > you
      > ascertain the TERGOWA district of Krassó-Szörény?
      > My reference (see below) cites: Weitzenried = SZORENYBUZAS,
      > Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, UJMOLDOVAL jaras (district),
      > GIRNIC
      > (roman) GARNIC (Romanian). This village is in present-day ROMANIA.
      > 1910 census data: pop 1048, 15 magyar, 1025 czech and moravian; 1028
      > roman catholic; 20 greek orthodox
      >
      > 2. How did you ascertain Ebethal or Eibenshal = WEIDENTHAL
      > (=TEMESFOE)
      > Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm?
      > In the same county of Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, I find
      > EIBENTHAL = TISZAFA in Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, Orsovai
      > district. This looks like a closer handwriting match. Located
      > nearly
      > at the southernmost tip of the Orsovai district.
      > 1910 Census data: pop 848,; 31 magyar, 33 germans, 100 romanians,,
      > 682
      > czech and moravian; 733 roman catholic, 101greek orthodox, 9 jew.
      > This village is about 15km northwest of Tiszafa
      >
      > Sources:
      > 1. "Magyar Helysegnev-Azonosito Szotar", Talma Konyvkiado, 1998
      > 2. http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/krasso.jpg
      > 3. "Magyaroszag Kozigazgatasi Atlasza, 1914", Talma Konyvkiado,
      > 2000
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: helenezx@... [mailto:helenezx@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 5:11 AM
      > To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name
      >
      > Can anyone locate the following places -
      >
      > 1) Ebethal or Eibenshal as it appears on a Hungarian document of
      > 1889
      >
      > I am wondering if this was another name for Gbely which was called
      > Egbel
      > til
      > 1913.
      >
      > 2) Weitzenied on a document of 1883.
      > Could it be Biely Kostol which was once called Weiskirchen?
      >
      > they mention on the hungarian document an "egyhazmegy" think this
      > means
      > county in Hungarian - but don't recognize what is written there as a
      > county "
      > Knasso-Szoreny" as best i can decipher. or maybe this is the diocese
      > and
      > the
      > county or place is next as "varmegyebe kebelezett and written there
      > is
      > Nep.
      > Sz. Yanosval nevezek Eibenshali (lovely old script but hard to read)
      >
      > After one name Fiala Maria - appears the word leámya - does anyone
      > know
      > what
      > this means?
      >
      > Sure appreciate your help
      >
      > helene
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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      >
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    • Jim Downs
      Hi Claudia, car - paht - en -doit -sha Jim ... From: Claudia Medvik To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 27, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Claudia,

        car - paht - en -doit -sha

        Jim
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Claudia Medvik
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:41 PM
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Karpatendeutsche


        Dear Jim,

        I'm linguistically ignorant. How do you pronounce Karpatendeutsche?

        Claudia


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jim Downs" <downsjd@...>
        To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:16 PM
        Subject: [Slovak-World] Karpatendeutsche


        Hi Bill,
        Regarding Slovak-Germans (Karpatendeutscher), contact Dr. Thomas Reimer at
        treimer@.... He is a university professor. His parents were born in
        Slovakia and Dr. Reimer is very active in Karpatendeutsche activities. He
        can send you copies of a lot of material.
        Jim
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Bill Tarkulich
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:33 AM
        Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


        Hello Vladimir,
        This is most interesting. I am a history buff and have had a helluva
        time collecting historical accounts of any of the details of day to day
        life of peasants. I've been collecting various historical accounts of
        the region, especially the Rusyn region in NE Slovakia. I've got some
        historical writing by Rusyns local to the region which is most
        interesting and illuminating. The only regional stuff done, out of
        Snina was from the 70s and 80s and reeked of socialistic rhetoric
        ("baloney" in mixed company) - you had to read between every other line
        for truth. It's also interesting to watch the same writer rewriting his
        1970s material into 2000-era material to promote the region. The
        references to "Our great and foreverafter comrades of the Soviet Union"
        are no more....

        It's true that they spend more time documenting the property owners than
        the customs and traditions of their own region. I suppose this may
        because they have been so oppressed for so long. It's kind of like the
        "beaten dog syndrome." After a while, the response become ingrained.

        I'd be interested in what German titles you might recommend for the
        Carpathian region, especially inhabited by the Rusyns. Who are these
        Germans doing the writings? Academics? I wonder what holds their
        interest in a land that they are only marginally affilliated with in the
        present times.

        Regards,
        Bill Tarkulich

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:03 AM
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


        Dear Bill,
        what I find interesting is, that the Germans have much better historical
        materials about the settlers, than other ethnics. If you could only read
        german, to see into what kind of details they are going. Writing mostly
        about ordinary people and their lives. In slovak settlement history, you
        can only read about the landlors. Slovakia was settled meny times
        through various ethnic groups, but very few data and stories are
        available. Regards Vladimir

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Bill Tarkulich
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:42 PM
        Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


        Hello Vladimir,

        Thank you for your helpful reply. I too, am doing this a a "favor" to
        others, (providing "bites" of data). Since this is Helene's project,
        we'll just give her the data and let her draw her own conclusions. It
        is always good to have two heads review the information.

        Helene, you'll need to ascertain that the name(s) we've advised you on
        do fit the information provided and the cursive script. You need to
        take the next step to corroborate the data.
        That said, we're both pointing at the same region, which is today's
        lower Hungary, or Romania. So I doubt that this is on your
        itinerary...

        Good Luck,
        Bill Tarkulich



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:24 AM
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


        Dear Bill,
        Regarding Tergowa district, I think, I took this from some german
        page,
        and it probably means the district as of today, not then. The then
        districts are on the map, which I provided the link for. I think it's
        the #13, Ujmoldoval, yes. I am quite a busy man, so I do not have much
        time to study such details for everyone. Here and there I take a
        "break"
        and try this or that. This is why I said, you can start from here. If
        the spelling provided was misspelled, and there can be several close
        interpretations, then a complete information of the source is needed
        and
        a careful analysis and comparison of all available data is required in
        order to be sure, which place was meant. For this, I unfortunately do
        not have time, although I am always attracted by such enigmas.
        Regards,
        Vladimir
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Bill Tarkulich
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Helenezx@...
        Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:08 PM
        Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village
        name


        re:
        "Ebethal or Eibenshal
        Weitzenied"

        Vladimir :
        With all due respect to your fine work,

        1. I will agree with you on Weitzenied = WEITZENRIED, but how did
        you
        ascertain the TERGOWA district of Krassó-Szörény?
        My reference (see below) cites: Weitzenried = SZORENYBUZAS,
        Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, UJMOLDOVAL jaras (district),
        GIRNIC
        (roman) GARNIC (Romanian). This village is in present-day ROMANIA.
        1910 census data: pop 1048, 15 magyar, 1025 czech and moravian; 1028
        roman catholic; 20 greek orthodox

        2. How did you ascertain Ebethal or Eibenshal = WEIDENTHAL
        (=TEMESFOE)
        Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm?
        In the same county of Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, I find
        EIBENTHAL = TISZAFA in Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, Orsovai
        district. This looks like a closer handwriting match. Located
        nearly
        at the southernmost tip of the Orsovai district.
        1910 Census data: pop 848,; 31 magyar, 33 germans, 100 romanians,,
        682
        czech and moravian; 733 roman catholic, 101greek orthodox, 9 jew.
        This village is about 15km northwest of Tiszafa

        Sources:
        1. "Magyar Helysegnev-Azonosito Szotar", Talma Konyvkiado, 1998
        2. http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/krasso.jpg
        3. "Magyaroszag Kozigazgatasi Atlasza, 1914", Talma Konyvkiado,
        2000







        -----Original Message-----
        From: helenezx@... [mailto:helenezx@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 5:11 AM
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


        Can anyone locate the following places -

        1) Ebethal or Eibenshal as it appears on a Hungarian document of
        1889

        I am wondering if this was another name for Gbely which was called
        Egbel
        til
        1913.

        2) Weitzenied on a document of 1883.
        Could it be Biely Kostol which was once called Weiskirchen?

        they mention on the hungarian document an "egyhazmegy" think this
        means
        county in Hungarian - but don't recognize what is written there as a
        county "
        Knasso-Szoreny" as best i can decipher. or maybe this is the diocese
        and
        the
        county or place is next as "varmegyebe kebelezett and written there
        is
        Nep.
        Sz. Yanosval nevezek Eibenshali (lovely old script but hard to read)


        After one name Fiala Maria - appears the word leámya - does anyone
        know
        what
        this means?

        Sure appreciate your help

        helene


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ron Matviyak
        In addition do some searches using www.lycos.de , the German Lycos. They will have a different variety of hits to investigate, and a fair number of pages will
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 28, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          In addition do some searches using www.lycos.de , the German Lycos. They
          will have a different variety of hits to investigate, and a fair number of
          pages will still have an English option. In addition perhaps we should swap
          some e-mails, I have been doing much the same reading in history, only I can
          read German but not Slovak or Rusyn

          Ron

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bill Tarkulich
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:33 AM
          Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


          Hello Vladimir,
          This is most interesting. I am a history buff and have had a helluva
          time collecting historical accounts of any of the details of day to day
          life of peasants. I've been collecting various historical accounts of
          the region, especially the Rusyn region in NE Slovakia. I've got some
          historical writing by Rusyns local to the region which is most
          interesting and illuminating. The only regional stuff done, out of
          Snina was from the 70s and 80s and reeked of socialistic rhetoric
          ("baloney" in mixed company) - you had to read between every other line
          for truth. It's also interesting to watch the same writer rewriting his
          1970s material into 2000-era material to promote the region. The
          references to "Our great and foreverafter comrades of the Soviet Union"
          are no more....

          It's true that they spend more time documenting the property owners than
          the customs and traditions of their own region. I suppose this may
          because they have been so oppressed for so long. It's kind of like the
          "beaten dog syndrome." After a while, the response become ingrained.

          I'd be interested in what German titles you might recommend for the
          Carpathian region, especially inhabited by the Rusyns. Who are these
          Germans doing the writings? Academics? I wonder what holds their
          interest in a land that they are only marginally affilliated with in the
          present times.

          Regards,
          Bill Tarkulich

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
          Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:03 AM
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


          Dear Bill,
          what I find interesting is, that the Germans have much better historical
          materials about the settlers, than other ethnics. If you could only read
          german, to see into what kind of details they are going. Writing mostly
          about ordinary people and their lives. In slovak settlement history, you
          can only read about the landlors. Slovakia was settled meny times
          through various ethnic groups, but very few data and stories are
          available. Regards Vladimir

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bill Tarkulich
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:42 PM
          Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


          Hello Vladimir,

          Thank you for your helpful reply. I too, am doing this a a "favor" to
          others, (providing "bites" of data). Since this is Helene's project,
          we'll just give her the data and let her draw her own conclusions. It
          is always good to have two heads review the information.

          Helene, you'll need to ascertain that the name(s) we've advised you on
          do fit the information provided and the cursive script. You need to
          take the next step to corroborate the data.
          That said, we're both pointing at the same region, which is today's
          lower Hungary, or Romania. So I doubt that this is on your
          itinerary...

          Good Luck,
          Bill Tarkulich



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
          Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:24 AM
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


          Dear Bill,
          Regarding Tergowa district, I think, I took this from some german
          page,
          and it probably means the district as of today, not then. The then
          districts are on the map, which I provided the link for. I think it's
          the #13, Ujmoldoval, yes. I am quite a busy man, so I do not have much
          time to study such details for everyone. Here and there I take a
          "break"
          and try this or that. This is why I said, you can start from here. If
          the spelling provided was misspelled, and there can be several close
          interpretations, then a complete information of the source is needed
          and
          a careful analysis and comparison of all available data is required in
          order to be sure, which place was meant. For this, I unfortunately do
          not have time, although I am always attracted by such enigmas.
          Regards,
          Vladimir
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bill Tarkulich
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Helenezx@...
          Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:08 PM
          Subject: RE: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village
          name


          re:
          "Ebethal or Eibenshal
          Weitzenied"

          Vladimir :
          With all due respect to your fine work,

          1. I will agree with you on Weitzenied = WEITZENRIED, but how did
          you
          ascertain the TERGOWA district of Krassó-Szörény?
          My reference (see below) cites: Weitzenried = SZORENYBUZAS,
          Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, UJMOLDOVAL jaras (district),
          GIRNIC
          (roman) GARNIC (Romanian). This village is in present-day ROMANIA.
          1910 census data: pop 1048, 15 magyar, 1025 czech and moravian; 1028
          roman catholic; 20 greek orthodox

          2. How did you ascertain Ebethal or Eibenshal = WEIDENTHAL
          (=TEMESFOE)
          Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm?
          In the same county of Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, I find
          EIBENTHAL = TISZAFA in Krassó-Szörény (Krasso-Szoreny) vm, Orsovai
          district. This looks like a closer handwriting match. Located
          nearly
          at the southernmost tip of the Orsovai district.
          1910 Census data: pop 848,; 31 magyar, 33 germans, 100 romanians,,
          682
          czech and moravian; 733 roman catholic, 101greek orthodox, 9 jew.
          This village is about 15km northwest of Tiszafa

          Sources:
          1. "Magyar Helysegnev-Azonosito Szotar", Talma Konyvkiado, 1998
          2. http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/krasso.jpg
          3. "Magyaroszag Kozigazgatasi Atlasza, 1914", Talma Konyvkiado,
          2000







          -----Original Message-----
          From: helenezx@... [mailto:helenezx@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 5:11 AM
          To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Slovak-World] Need Help Identifying current village name


          Can anyone locate the following places -

          1) Ebethal or Eibenshal as it appears on a Hungarian document of
          1889

          I am wondering if this was another name for Gbely which was called
          Egbel
          til
          1913.

          2) Weitzenied on a document of 1883.
          Could it be Biely Kostol which was once called Weiskirchen?

          they mention on the hungarian document an "egyhazmegy" think this
          means
          county in Hungarian - but don't recognize what is written there as a
          county "
          Knasso-Szoreny" as best i can decipher. or maybe this is the diocese
          and
          the
          county or place is next as "varmegyebe kebelezett and written there
          is
          Nep.
          Sz. Yanosval nevezek Eibenshali (lovely old script but hard to read)


          After one name Fiala Maria - appears the word leámya - does anyone
          know
          what
          this means?

          Sure appreciate your help

          helene


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