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Re: [Slovak-World] Gooseberries

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  • Helen Fedor
    Both Hungarian and Slovak use the same word, egres and egres~ . Who borrowed it from whom? I would think that since it s a horticultural item (that a
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
      Both Hungarian and Slovak use the same word, "egres" and "egres~". Who
      borrowed it from whom? I would think that since it's a horticultural
      item (that a settled people would have known about), the Hungarians
      would have learned the word from their local Slavs, but it sounds
      Hungarian to me. Is this a re-borrowing?

      Helen



      >>> LHBrigham@... 03/02/05 11:23 AM >>>
      Not only do the bushes have thorns - the berries have thorns! When you

      eat gooseberries, you have to carefully break all of the thorns down
      with your teeth before you can eat them. One of my aunts had a row of

      gooseberries that we would pick so she could bake a gooseberry pie.
      Horticulturists have developed thorn less gooseberries.

      Lowell


      durisek@... wrote:

      >The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any
      other
      >meanings...what's the etymology? Zuzka
      >
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    • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
      I ve found differing opinions on the etymology of gooseberry, but one that makes sense to me is to derive it from gorse-berry, with gorse referring to another
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
        I've found differing opinions on the etymology of gooseberry, but one
        that makes sense to me is to derive it from gorse-berry, with gorse
        referring to another type of thorny bush (from Old English "gors").
        The Hungarian egres looks like it might be from a related Germanic
        root, just guessing though.

        By the way, in the Slovak phrase that started all this, there was no
        "gooseberry", the phrase was "trinasty apos~tol" = "a thirteenth
        apostle".

        Joe


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Helen Fedor [mailto:hfed@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:32 AM
        To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Gooseberries



        Both Hungarian and Slovak use the same word, "egres" and "egres~".
        Who
        borrowed it from whom? I would think that since it's a horticultural
        item (that a settled people would have known about), the Hungarians
        would have learned the word from their local Slavs, but it sounds
        Hungarian to me. Is this a re-borrowing?

        Helen



        >>> LHBrigham@... 03/02/05 11:23 AM >>>
        Not only do the bushes have thorns - the berries have thorns! When
        you

        eat gooseberries, you have to carefully break all of the thorns down
        with your teeth before you can eat them. One of my aunts had a row of

        gooseberries that we would pick so she could bake a gooseberry pie.
        Horticulturists have developed thorn less gooseberries.

        Lowell


        durisek@... wrote:

        >The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any
        other
        >meanings...what's the etymology? Zuzka
      • Martin Votruba
        ... I agree, Joe, and it goes even farther. Gooseberries are not ancient Slovak, or even European fruit. The names of such plants aren t old, old Slovak,
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
          > The Hungarian egres looks like it might be from a related
          > Germanic root

          I agree, Joe, and it goes even farther. Gooseberries are not ancient
          Slovak, or even European fruit. The names of such plants aren't old,
          old Slovak, Hungarian.

          Like paradajky (tomatoes), egrese (gooseberries) reached the Slovaks
          (and Hungarians) through Vienna. Their Austrian-German name
          _Agraseln_ came from the Spanish _agraz_ (it's Stachelbeere in
          German-German).

          The first records of gooseberries in Slovakia come from the 1600s.

          They probably reached Slovakia earlier. There was usually a delay
          between when something like that appeared in the real world and when
          it was first mentioned in a written record.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Helen Fedor
          So does that mean that gooseberries originally came from Iberia? This also brought to mind the Slovak word cibul a (onion), which resembles the Spanish word
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
            So does that mean that gooseberries originally came from Iberia? This
            also brought to mind the Slovak word "cibul'a" (onion), which resembles
            the Spanish word "cebolla". Did cibul'a also come from Spanish or is
            this just the Indo-European connection at word again?

            Helen



            >>> votrubam@... 03/02/05 12:30 PM >>>
            > The Hungarian egres looks like it might be from a related
            > Germanic root

            I agree, Joe, and it goes even farther. Gooseberries are not ancient
            Slovak, or even European fruit. The names of such plants aren't old,
            old Slovak, Hungarian.

            Like paradajky (tomatoes), egrese (gooseberries) reached the Slovaks
            (and Hungarians) through Vienna. Their Austrian-German name
            _Agraseln_ came from the Spanish _agraz_ (it's Stachelbeere in
            German-German).

            The first records of gooseberries in Slovakia come from the 1600s.

            They probably reached Slovakia earlier. There was usually a delay
            between when something like that appeared in the real world and when
            it was first mentioned in a written record.


            Martin

            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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          • Martin Votruba
            ... It s more likely that gooseberries reached Vienna _via_ Spain/Spanish (e.g., the Habsburgs ruled Spain ca. 1500-1700, as well as much of Central Europe).
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
              > that gooseberries originally came from Iberia?

              It's more likely that gooseberries reached Vienna _via_ Spain/Spanish
              (e.g., the Habsburgs ruled Spain ca. 1500-1700, as well as much of
              Central Europe). Apparently, gooseberries as we know them were
              cultivated around the 16th century from a lowlier variety of currants.

              > "cibul'a" (onion), which resembles the Spanish word "cebolla"

              I don't think this goes back to Indo-European directly from Slovak,
              Helen. The word came from Latin. That almost certainly does not
              mean that that the Old Slavs didn't have onion: it has been around
              for millennia. A particular cultivated variety probably spread from
              the Latin area along with the word and replaced whatever kinds of
              onion the Europeans used to grow.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
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