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Re: [Slovak-World] Gooseberries

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  • durisek@aol.com
    The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any other meanings...what s the etymology? Zuzka [Non-text portions of this message have been
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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      The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any other
      meanings...what's the etymology? Zuzka


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LHBrigham
      Not only do the bushes have thorns - the berries have thorns! When you eat gooseberries, you have to carefully break all of the thorns down with your teeth
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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        Not only do the bushes have thorns - the berries have thorns! When you
        eat gooseberries, you have to carefully break all of the thorns down
        with your teeth before you can eat them. One of my aunts had a row of
        gooseberries that we would pick so she could bake a gooseberry pie.
        Horticulturists have developed thorn less gooseberries.

        Lowell


        durisek@... wrote:

        >The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any other
        >meanings...what's the etymology? Zuzka
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      • Helen Fedor
        Both Hungarian and Slovak use the same word, egres and egres~ . Who borrowed it from whom? I would think that since it s a horticultural item (that a
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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          Both Hungarian and Slovak use the same word, "egres" and "egres~". Who
          borrowed it from whom? I would think that since it's a horticultural
          item (that a settled people would have known about), the Hungarians
          would have learned the word from their local Slavs, but it sounds
          Hungarian to me. Is this a re-borrowing?

          Helen



          >>> LHBrigham@... 03/02/05 11:23 AM >>>
          Not only do the bushes have thorns - the berries have thorns! When you

          eat gooseberries, you have to carefully break all of the thorns down
          with your teeth before you can eat them. One of my aunts had a row of

          gooseberries that we would pick so she could bake a gooseberry pie.
          Horticulturists have developed thorn less gooseberries.

          Lowell


          durisek@... wrote:

          >The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any
          other
          >meanings...what's the etymology? Zuzka
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
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        • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
          I ve found differing opinions on the etymology of gooseberry, but one that makes sense to me is to derive it from gorse-berry, with gorse referring to another
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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            I've found differing opinions on the etymology of gooseberry, but one
            that makes sense to me is to derive it from gorse-berry, with gorse
            referring to another type of thorny bush (from Old English "gors").
            The Hungarian egres looks like it might be from a related Germanic
            root, just guessing though.

            By the way, in the Slovak phrase that started all this, there was no
            "gooseberry", the phrase was "trinasty apos~tol" = "a thirteenth
            apostle".

            Joe


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Helen Fedor [mailto:hfed@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:32 AM
            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Gooseberries



            Both Hungarian and Slovak use the same word, "egres" and "egres~".
            Who
            borrowed it from whom? I would think that since it's a horticultural
            item (that a settled people would have known about), the Hungarians
            would have learned the word from their local Slavs, but it sounds
            Hungarian to me. Is this a re-borrowing?

            Helen



            >>> LHBrigham@... 03/02/05 11:23 AM >>>
            Not only do the bushes have thorns - the berries have thorns! When
            you

            eat gooseberries, you have to carefully break all of the thorns down
            with your teeth before you can eat them. One of my aunts had a row of

            gooseberries that we would pick so she could bake a gooseberry pie.
            Horticulturists have developed thorn less gooseberries.

            Lowell


            durisek@... wrote:

            >The bushes do have thorns, I think. Does the slovak word have any
            other
            >meanings...what's the etymology? Zuzka
          • Martin Votruba
            ... I agree, Joe, and it goes even farther. Gooseberries are not ancient Slovak, or even European fruit. The names of such plants aren t old, old Slovak,
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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              > The Hungarian egres looks like it might be from a related
              > Germanic root

              I agree, Joe, and it goes even farther. Gooseberries are not ancient
              Slovak, or even European fruit. The names of such plants aren't old,
              old Slovak, Hungarian.

              Like paradajky (tomatoes), egrese (gooseberries) reached the Slovaks
              (and Hungarians) through Vienna. Their Austrian-German name
              _Agraseln_ came from the Spanish _agraz_ (it's Stachelbeere in
              German-German).

              The first records of gooseberries in Slovakia come from the 1600s.

              They probably reached Slovakia earlier. There was usually a delay
              between when something like that appeared in the real world and when
              it was first mentioned in a written record.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            • Helen Fedor
              So does that mean that gooseberries originally came from Iberia? This also brought to mind the Slovak word cibul a (onion), which resembles the Spanish word
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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                So does that mean that gooseberries originally came from Iberia? This
                also brought to mind the Slovak word "cibul'a" (onion), which resembles
                the Spanish word "cebolla". Did cibul'a also come from Spanish or is
                this just the Indo-European connection at word again?

                Helen



                >>> votrubam@... 03/02/05 12:30 PM >>>
                > The Hungarian egres looks like it might be from a related
                > Germanic root

                I agree, Joe, and it goes even farther. Gooseberries are not ancient
                Slovak, or even European fruit. The names of such plants aren't old,
                old Slovak, Hungarian.

                Like paradajky (tomatoes), egrese (gooseberries) reached the Slovaks
                (and Hungarians) through Vienna. Their Austrian-German name
                _Agraseln_ came from the Spanish _agraz_ (it's Stachelbeere in
                German-German).

                The first records of gooseberries in Slovakia come from the 1600s.

                They probably reached Slovakia earlier. There was usually a delay
                between when something like that appeared in the real world and when
                it was first mentioned in a written record.


                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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              • Martin Votruba
                ... It s more likely that gooseberries reached Vienna _via_ Spain/Spanish (e.g., the Habsburgs ruled Spain ca. 1500-1700, as well as much of Central Europe).
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 2, 2005
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                  > that gooseberries originally came from Iberia?

                  It's more likely that gooseberries reached Vienna _via_ Spain/Spanish
                  (e.g., the Habsburgs ruled Spain ca. 1500-1700, as well as much of
                  Central Europe). Apparently, gooseberries as we know them were
                  cultivated around the 16th century from a lowlier variety of currants.

                  > "cibul'a" (onion), which resembles the Spanish word "cebolla"

                  I don't think this goes back to Indo-European directly from Slovak,
                  Helen. The word came from Latin. That almost certainly does not
                  mean that that the Old Slavs didn't have onion: it has been around
                  for millennia. A particular cultivated variety probably spread from
                  the Latin area along with the word and replaced whatever kinds of
                  onion the Europeans used to grow.


                  Martin

                  votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
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