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Dialects

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  • Helen Fedor
    Martin, I ve been having a good time looking through the first volume of Stolc s _Atlas slovenskeho jazyka_. One of the things that struck me was that the
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 24 11:26 AM
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      Martin,
      I've been having a good time looking through the first volume of
      Stolc's _Atlas slovenskeho jazyka_. One of the things that struck me
      was that the language in the south central part of the country, roughly
      centered on Revuca, seems to have some sort of South Slavic influence.
      Is this my imagination or is there some history behind this?

      Helen
    • Scott T. Mikusko
      There was a Croatian migration into southern Slovakia, near Bratislava and along the Danube river, during the 16th century. That probably contributes to it,
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 24 11:51 AM
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        There was a Croatian migration into southern Slovakia, near Bratislava and
        along the Danube river, during the 16th century. That probably
        contributes to it, as well as the -ovic ending surnames.

        -S



        On Thu, 24 Feb
        2005, Helen Fedor wrote:

        >
        > Martin,
        > I've been having a good time looking through the first volume of
        > Stolc's _Atlas slovenskeho jazyka_. One of the things that struck me
        > was that the language in the south central part of the country, roughly
        > centered on Revuca, seems to have some sort of South Slavic influence.
        > Is this my imagination or is there some history behind this?
        >
        > Helen
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      • Helen Fedor
        This is well to the east of the B-slava region and well away from the Danube. Helen ... There was a Croatian migration into southern Slovakia, near Bratislava
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 24 11:58 AM
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          This is well to the east of the B-slava region and well away from the
          Danube.

          Helen




          >>> guerilla@... 02/24/05 2:51 PM >>>

          There was a Croatian migration into southern Slovakia, near Bratislava
          and
          along the Danube river, during the 16th century. That probably
          contributes to it, as well as the -ovic ending surnames.

          -S



          On Thu, 24 Feb
          2005, Helen Fedor wrote:

          >
          > Martin,
          > I've been having a good time looking through the first volume of
          > Stolc's _Atlas slovenskeho jazyka_. One of the things that struck
          me
          > was that the language in the south central part of the country,
          roughly
          > centered on Revuca, seems to have some sort of South Slavic
          influence.
          > Is this my imagination or is there some history behind this?
          >
          > Helen
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

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        • helene cincebeaux
          ... Vovojdina (in former Yugoslavia) from Hont and Novohrad counties in southern Slovakia. I met two women at Piestany spa who came from there - their families
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 24 12:57 PM
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            --- Helen Fedor <hfed@...> wrote:


            > I've been having a good time looking through the
            > first volume of
            > Stolc's _Atlas slovenskeho jazyka_. One of the
            > things that struck me
            > was that the language in the south central part of
            > the country, roughly
            > centered on Revuca, seems to have some sort of South
            > Slavic influence.
            > Is this my imagination or is there some history
            > behind this?
            >
            > Hi Helen - there was a big migration into the
            Vovojdina (in former Yugoslavia) from Hont and
            Novohrad counties in southern Slovakia. I met two
            women at Piestany spa who came from there - their
            families left Slovakia 250 years earlier - their
            Slovak was crystal clear and so easy to understand -
            at Vychodna Festival i met a young man from that
            region who knew hundreds of Slovak folk songs. He also
            knew his genealogy - way back to Slovakia.,

            i wonder if the interaction among the people with
            relatives who came back to visit flavored the dialect.

            When my photo exhibit Treasure of Slovakia was on
            display at Detva Festival, the other exhibit was over
            50 paintings by the most famous naive painters from
            Yugoslavia - i was intrigued to lean that the
            wonderful paintings the world loves are created by
            people in the Slovak villages in Voivodina - on the
            northern border near Vukovar.

            This summer met Pavel Babka who shepherds exhibits
            of these wonderful folk paintings around the world.

            helene





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          • amiak27
            Helen & Helene reminded me that an historical Austrian atlas I have is honest enough to admit that lower Austria (the part around Vienna, & between Slovakia &
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 25 8:04 AM
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              Helen & Helene reminded me that an historical Austrian atlas I have
              is honest enough to admit that lower Austria (the part around
              Vienna, & between Slovakia & Slovenia) was settled by Slavic people
              before the Bayer immigrated and became Austrians. They name quite a
              few settlements that exist today and give their previous Slavic
              name. That is better than the Hungarians will do, as they generally
              insist that the Hungarian plain was "thinly settled" at best when
              they arrived.

              The point is that not only migrations after settlement of Austrians
              and Hungarians may be in the play, but the similarities between some
              dialects north and south may be remnants of the earlier period where
              there were continuous settlements of people who became Slovak,
              Slovene and Croat. An interesting web site is at:

              http://www.eurolang.net/State/austria.htm


              Ron
              --- In Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux
              <helenezx@y...> wrote:
              > --- Helen Fedor <hfed@l...> wrote:
              some sort of South > > Slavic influence.
              > > Is this my imagination or is there some history > > behind this?
              > >
              > > Hi Helen - there was a big migration into the > Vovojdina (in
              former Yugoslavia) from Hont and > Novohrad counties in southern
              Slovakia. > i wonder if the interaction among the people with
              > relatives who came back to visit flavored the dialect.
              > helene
            • Martin Votruba
              ... Yes, Helen, that is one of those really ancient things. Before the Ugric tribes arrived (who became Hungarians), the whole lowland area from Croatia and
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 25 8:17 AM
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                > the language in the south central part of the country,
                > roughly centered on Revuca, seems to have some sort of
                > South Slavic influence. Is this my imagination or is
                > there some history behind this?

                Yes, Helen, that is one of those really ancient things.

                Before the Ugric tribes arrived (who became Hungarians), the whole
                lowland area from Croatia and Slovenia to Slovakia, i.e., today's
                Hungary, was settled by the Slavs. The South Slavic regional
                vernaculars (which developed into Croatian, Slovenian, etc.) and West
                Slavic vernaculars (which gave Slovak, Polish, Czech) mixed with each
                other.

                When the nomadic-warrior Ugrics defeated the plains around the year
                900, they drove a wedge between the Southern and Western Slavs. Some
                of the South-Slavic speakers were pushed north, into the mountainous
                regions of today's Slovakia. That's what the dialects in
                south-central Slovakia still show.

                The mountains to the north and south of the Danubian plains (now
                Hungary) remained Slavic. While the valleys were fine for the
                farming Slavs, mountains were not suitable for the Ugrics with their
                enormous herds of cattle and nomadic lifestyle, which needed the
                prairies.

                In fact all Slovak -- although a West Slavic language -- has a major
                "southern" feature, which makes it a little easier to learn the
                present tense. Like in Croatian but unlike in Polish and Czech, the
                "I" form of a verb (first person singular) always ends in -m.

                SK: _viem_ "I know;" and _idem_ "I go/am going"

                PL, CZ: _wiem_, _vim_; but _ide_, _jdu_

                That's an indirect legacy of the Ugric invasion 1,100 years ago.


                > There was a Croatian migration into southern Slovakia, near
                > Bratislava and along the Danube river, during the 16th century.

                As Scott says, in the 16th century they were people running north
                from the expanding Turkish (Ottoman/Osmanli) empire. By that time
                the regional varieties of the Slavic languages were solidified to the
                point that the vernaculars of the new settlers had practically no
                impact on the neighbors where they settled, so no legacy shows on the
                maps of regional dialects. But the new settlers did maintain their
                original language in their villages for a long time.


                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
              • Helen Fedor
                Now I m up to the 2nd volume of the _Atlas_, where they have a map showing the division of the country among the dialects. If I can fit this on our scanner,
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 25 10:48 AM
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                  Now I'm up to the 2nd volume of the _Atlas_, where they have a map
                  showing the division of the country among the dialects. If I can fit
                  this on our scanner, I'll put it up for all to see on Monday.

                  Acc'd to this map, it looks like the area I asked about is either the
                  southern Central Slovak dialects or the Gemer dialects, which are a
                  subset of the southern Central Slovak dialects. What were the
                  historical and geographic influences that brought about the divisions?
                  Here's the run-down of the divisions:

                  Western dialects:
                  Northern dialects
                  Southern dialects
                  Zahorie dialects
                  Central dialects:
                  Northern dialects
                  Southern dialects
                  Gemer dialects
                  Eastern dialects
                  Western dialects
                  Eastern dialects
                  Uz~ dialects


                  Helen





                  >>> votrubam@... 02/25/05 11:17 AM >>>
                  > the language in the south central part of the country,
                  > roughly centered on Revuca, seems to have some sort of
                  > South Slavic influence. Is this my imagination or is
                  > there some history behind this?

                  Yes, Helen, that is one of those really ancient things.

                  Before the Ugric tribes arrived (who became Hungarians), the whole
                  lowland area from Croatia and Slovenia to Slovakia, i.e., today's
                  Hungary, was settled by the Slavs. The South Slavic regional
                  vernaculars (which developed into Croatian, Slovenian, etc.) and West
                  Slavic vernaculars (which gave Slovak, Polish, Czech) mixed with each
                  other.

                  When the nomadic-warrior Ugrics defeated the plains around the year
                  900, they drove a wedge between the Southern and Western Slavs. Some
                  of the South-Slavic speakers were pushed north, into the mountainous
                  regions of today's Slovakia. That's what the dialects in
                  south-central Slovakia still show.

                  The mountains to the north and south of the Danubian plains (now
                  Hungary) remained Slavic. While the valleys were fine for the
                  farming Slavs, mountains were not suitable for the Ugrics with their
                  enormous herds of cattle and nomadic lifestyle, which needed the
                  prairies.

                  In fact all Slovak -- although a West Slavic language -- has a major
                  "southern" feature, which makes it a little easier to learn the
                  present tense. Like in Croatian but unlike in Polish and Czech, the
                  "I" form of a verb (first person singular) always ends in -m.

                  SK: _viem_ "I know;" and _idem_ "I go/am going"

                  PL, CZ: _wiem_, _vim_; but _ide_, _jdu_

                  That's an indirect legacy of the Ugric invasion 1,100 years ago.


                  > There was a Croatian migration into southern Slovakia, near
                  > Bratislava and along the Danube river, during the 16th century.

                  As Scott says, in the 16th century they were people running north
                  from the expanding Turkish (Ottoman/Osmanli) empire. By that time
                  the regional varieties of the Slavic languages were solidified to the
                  point that the vernaculars of the new settlers had practically no
                  impact on the neighbors where they settled, so no legacy shows on the
                  maps of regional dialects. But the new settlers did maintain their
                  original language in their villages for a long time.


                  Martin

                  votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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                • helene cincebeaux
                  ... As always thanks for the great explanation and the historical information - super!!!! It s wonderful of you to take the time to share with us - so much of
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 26 5:32 AM
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                    --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:

                    As always thanks for the great explanation and the
                    historical information - super!!!!

                    It's wonderful of you to take the time to share with
                    us - so much of what we want to know is in
                    impenetrable formal Slovak - your help is invaluable!

                    Would like to ask - where do you think the Slavs came
                    from that settled in Slovakia?

                    helene



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                  • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
                    Dittos, Martin! Your participation in this group should count as one of your official teaching classes at Pitt! You can call it a distance-learning class -
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 26 12:38 PM
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                      Dittos, Martin! Your participation in this group should count as
                      one of your official teaching classes at Pitt! You can call it a
                      distance-learning class - we'll all back you up!

                      Joe


                      >
                      > --- Martin Votruba <votrubam@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > As always thanks for the great explanation and the
                      > historical information - super!!!!
                      >
                      > It's wonderful of you to take the time to share with
                      > us - so much of what we want to know is in
                      > impenetrable formal Slovak - your help is invaluable!
                      >
                      > Would like to ask - where do you think the Slavs came
                      > from that settled in Slovakia?
                      >
                      > helene
                      >
                      >
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                    • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
                      Helen, is this the map? http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm Joe
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 26 12:42 PM
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                        Helen, is this the map?
                        http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm

                        Joe


                        > Now I'm up to the 2nd volume of the _Atlas_, where they have a map
                        > showing the division of the country among the dialects. If I can fit
                        > this on our scanner, I'll put it up for all to see on Monday.
                        >
                        > Acc'd to this map, it looks like the area I asked about is either the
                        > southern Central Slovak dialects or the Gemer dialects, which are a
                        > subset of the southern Central Slovak dialects. What were the
                        > historical and geographic influences that brought about the divisions?
                        > Here's the run-down of the divisions:
                        >
                        > Western dialects:
                        > Northern dialects
                        > Southern dialects
                        > Zahorie dialects
                        > Central dialects:
                        > Northern dialects
                        > Southern dialects
                        > Gemer dialects
                        > Eastern dialects
                        > Western dialects
                        > Eastern dialects
                        > Uz~ dialects
                        >
                        > Helen
                        >
                      • Helen Fedor
                        This is more detailed than the one at the beginning of vol.2. The only thing the other map has over this one is that it has the names of towns and cities,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 27 5:27 AM
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                          This is more detailed than the one at the beginning of vol.2. The only
                          thing the other map has over this one is that it has the names of towns
                          and cities, making it easier to get oriented. In which volume is this
                          one?

                          Helen



                          Helen Fedor
                          European Division
                          Library of Congress
                          10 E. First St., S.E.
                          Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                          tel. (202) 707-3704
                          fax (202) 707-8482
                          <hfed@...>
                          >>> JArmata@... 02/26/05 3:42 PM >>>
                        • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
                          You think I remember where I put that drawing?! It s not in my linguistics or Slovak files, which is where it ought to be. I ll stop by the library this week
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 28 1:34 PM
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                            You think I remember where I put that drawing?! It's not in my
                            linguistics or Slovak files, which is where it ought to be. I'll stop
                            by the library this week and see if I can find the book again.

                            Joe


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Helen Fedor [mailto:hfed@...]
                            Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 8:28 AM
                            To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Dialects



                            This is more detailed than the one at the beginning of vol.2. The
                            only
                            thing the other map has over this one is that it has the names of
                            towns
                            and cities, making it easier to get oriented. In which volume is this
                            one?

                            Helen



                            Helen Fedor
                            European Division
                            Library of Congress
                            10 E. First St., S.E.
                            Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                            tel. (202) 707-3704
                            fax (202) 707-8482
                            <hfed@...>
                            >>> JArmata@... 02/26/05 3:42 PM >>>




                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • helene cincebeaux
                            ... JOE YOU GAVE A COPY TO ME - I RAN ACROSS IT THE OTHER DAY WHILE WORKING ON THE SPRING SLOVAKIA HELENE __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                              --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
                              <JArmata@...> wrote:

                              > You think I remember where I put that drawing?!
                              > It's not in my
                              > linguistics or Slovak files, which is where it ought
                              > to be. I'll stop
                              > by the library this week and see if I can find the
                              > book again.
                              >
                              JOE YOU GAVE A COPY TO ME - I RAN ACROSS IT THE
                              OTHER DAY WHILE WORKING ON THE SPRING SLOVAKIA

                              HELENE



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                            • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
                              I found the book the map was based on. It s from the Atlas Slovenskeho Jazyka, Vol. I - Cast Prva - Mapy. Published 1968 by Slov. Akad. Vied in Bratislava.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 9, 2005
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                                I found the book the map was based on. It's from the Atlas
                                Slovenskeho Jazyka, Vol. I - Cast Prva - Mapy. Published 1968 by
                                Slov. Akad. Vied in Bratislava. Editor in Chief was Jozef Solc. This
                                is Map #4 in the volume, one of four introductory maps showing
                                geography, political divisions, towns & villages for orientation, and
                                dialect divisions. The publication consists of four (?) hefty
                                oversized volumes of maps showing the usage of different variations of
                                dialect words, and accompanying text volumes that go with the maps.

                                Joe


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Helen Fedor [mailto:hfed@...]
                                Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 8:28 AM
                                To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Dialects



                                This is more detailed than the one at the beginning of vol.2. The
                                only
                                thing the other map has over this one is that it has the names of
                                towns
                                and cities, making it easier to get oriented. In which volume is this
                                one?

                                Helen



                                Helen Fedor
                                European Division
                                Library of Congress
                                10 E. First St., S.E.
                                Washington, D.C. 20540-4830
                                tel. (202) 707-3704
                                fax (202) 707-8482
                                <hfed@...>
                                >>> JArmata@... 02/26/05 3:42 PM >>>




                                Yahoo! Groups Links









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                              • William
                                My mother was born in Krasna Horka and my father in Liesek, both in Orava. We also used papat for to eat , hejz~e for yes , s~umna for pretty ,
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 20, 2011
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                                  My mother was born in Krasna Horka and my father in Liesek, both in
                                  Orava. We also used "papat'" for " to eat", "hejz~e" for " yes",
                                  "s~umna" for "pretty", "vravit" for "to speak". We were not aware that
                                  these words were dialect. That's simply the way we spoke. When I
                                  visited my relatives in Slovakia, I found that these same words were
                                  still being used. I'm sure that there are many other words that I was
                                  familiar with that would be considered dialect, but I did not have any
                                  trouble having Slovaks in and around Bratislava understanding what I had
                                  to say. I remember one evening we were sitting around the table and the
                                  word "ano" came up frequently. Finally, I said, "Nie ano, hejz~e!". Of
                                  course, I adopted the use of "ano"in future conversations.

                                  William F. Brna
                                • votrubam
                                  ... There s a difference. Only the first two arrived in the 20th century, while the verb _papat_, also _papkat_ is old. It is a word used when talking to
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 20, 2011
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                                    > The use of the greeting "ahoj [ah-hoee]" and the European
                                    > "c~au", [chow], and 'papat [pah-paht], (for eat)

                                    There's a difference. Only the first two arrived in the 20th century, while the verb _papat_, also _papkat_ is old. It is a word used when talking to babies, unexpected among adults, it ends up being quite expressive then (cutesy, funny, conceited, etc.).


                                    > word I heard more in the east is "s~umne"

                                    Yes, Helene, that's an East Slovak word, not common elsewhere.


                                    > "hen to"

                                    That's common all over Slovakia. It's a colloquial version of "the one/thing over there." It's a combination of hen- and the neuter pronoun _to_ in this instance. The colloquial hen- works with other pronouns too, e.g., henten, henti, etc. (e.g., Vidis hentu horu? "Can you see the mountain over there?") and also with tam, "there": hentam, "over there."


                                    > what sounded like Zetzi for deti.

                                    Indeed, Helene, they said [dzetsi]. Some South-West Slovak and all East Slovak dialects pronounce the "soft" (palatal) -t~- as [ts] and the "soft" (palatal) -d~- as [dz]. That's one of the most recognizable East Slovak features for other Slovaks.


                                    Martin
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