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Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings

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  • Martin Votruba
    ... Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to take account of, i.e., any answer isn t much of an answer. Halupki is a piece of
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
      > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
      > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
      > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
      > Hungarian derivation?

      Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
      take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
      is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

      The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
      (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
      traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
      the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
      Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
      commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
      attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
      also occurs in Hungarian words.


      You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
      today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
      quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
      English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
      -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
      ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
      contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

      Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

      Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
      anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
      get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
      adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
      Slovak.


      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
    • Helen Fedor
      the more traditional Slovak -u s~ This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: Bajus (not Bajus~ ). Does this belong to another category of
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
        "the more traditional Slovak -u's~"

        This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: "Bajus" (not
        "Bajus~"). Does this belong to another category of suffix?

        Helen



        >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 11:51:05 PM >>>
        > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
        > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
        > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
        > Hungarian derivation?

        Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
        take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
        is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

        The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
        (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
        traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
        the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
        Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
        commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
        attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
        also occurs in Hungarian words.


        You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
        today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
        quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
        English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
        -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
        ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
        contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

        Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

        Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
        anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
        get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
        adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
        Slovak.


        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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      • Martin Votruba
        ... I don t think that contains a suffix. Its whiskers (in Hungarian: bajusz). That s almost a historical name! Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
          > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to another
          > category of suffix?

          I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
          bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

          Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok, and
          lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the 1650s.
          He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a book
          about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer oder
          dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

          One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between Spis
          and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn" to
          their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their names as
          Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as "the
          Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as "Raven")
          and -- Bajuz.

          Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely that
          it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs in
          conversational Slovak today, too.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Helen Fedor
          My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once asked her if Mrs. Bajus had bajusy too (just for the record, she was a sweet lady
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
            My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once
            asked her if Mrs. Bajus had "bajusy" too (just for the record, she was a
            sweet lady and didn't).

            Helen




            >>> votrubam@... 2/3/2005 2:53:06 PM >>>
            > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to
            another
            > category of suffix?

            I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
            bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

            Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok,
            and
            lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the
            1650s.
            He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a
            book
            about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer
            oder
            dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

            One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between
            Spis
            and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn"
            to
            their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their
            names as
            Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as
            "the
            Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as
            "Raven")
            and -- Bajuz.

            Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely
            that
            it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs
            in
            conversational Slovak today, too.


            Martin

            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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