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Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings

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  • Helen Fedor
    Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich prevzatie Mad armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._ Bratislava:
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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      Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich
      prevzatie Mad'armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._
      Bratislava: Veda, 1990.

      Helen




      >>> cnovotni@... 2/2/2005 4:59:06 PM >>>
      What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
      Carol
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
      To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


      >
      > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in
      Slovakia
      > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the
      Slavic
      > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
      > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?)
      later,
      > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
      > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
      >
      > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
      > mixer)?
      >
      > Helen
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
      >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
      >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
      >> to Hungarian?
      >
      >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
      >
      > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
      > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
      > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual

      > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
      >
      > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning

      > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
      > in the original one.
      >
      > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
      > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
      > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
      >
      > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
      > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a

      > range of uses.
      >
      > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable

      > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source

      > language.
      >
      > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
      > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
      > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
      > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
      > circumstances, etc.
      >
      > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
      > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
      > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
      > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
      > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
      >
      >
      > Martin
      >
      > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

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    • Martin Votruba
      ... Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to take account of, i.e., any answer isn t much of an answer. Halupki is a piece of
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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        > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
        > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
        > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
        > Hungarian derivation?

        Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
        take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
        is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

        The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
        (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
        traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
        the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
        Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
        commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
        attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
        also occurs in Hungarian words.


        You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
        today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
        quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
        English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
        -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
        ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
        contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

        Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

        Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
        anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
        get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
        adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
        Slovak.


        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
      • Helen Fedor
        the more traditional Slovak -u s~ This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: Bajus (not Bajus~ ). Does this belong to another category of
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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          "the more traditional Slovak -u's~"

          This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: "Bajus" (not
          "Bajus~"). Does this belong to another category of suffix?

          Helen



          >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 11:51:05 PM >>>
          > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
          > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
          > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
          > Hungarian derivation?

          Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
          take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
          is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

          The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
          (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
          traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
          the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
          Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
          commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
          attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
          also occurs in Hungarian words.


          You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
          today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
          quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
          English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
          -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
          ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
          contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

          Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

          Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
          anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
          get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
          adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
          Slovak.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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        • Martin Votruba
          ... I don t think that contains a suffix. Its whiskers (in Hungarian: bajusz). That s almost a historical name! Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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            > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to another
            > category of suffix?

            I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
            bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

            Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok, and
            lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the 1650s.
            He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a book
            about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer oder
            dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

            One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between Spis
            and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn" to
            their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their names as
            Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as "the
            Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as "Raven")
            and -- Bajuz.

            Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely that
            it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs in
            conversational Slovak today, too.


            Martin

            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
          • Helen Fedor
            My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once asked her if Mrs. Bajus had bajusy too (just for the record, she was a sweet lady
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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              My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once
              asked her if Mrs. Bajus had "bajusy" too (just for the record, she was a
              sweet lady and didn't).

              Helen




              >>> votrubam@... 2/3/2005 2:53:06 PM >>>
              > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to
              another
              > category of suffix?

              I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
              bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

              Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok,
              and
              lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the
              1650s.
              He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a
              book
              about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer
              oder
              dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

              One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between
              Spis
              and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn"
              to
              their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their
              names as
              Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as
              "the
              Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as
              "Raven")
              and -- Bajuz.

              Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely
              that
              it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs
              in
              conversational Slovak today, too.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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