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Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings

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  • Carol
    What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I d like to read that Carol ... From: Helen Fedor To: Sent:
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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      What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
      Carol
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
      To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


      >
      > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in Slovakia
      > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the Slavic
      > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
      > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?) later,
      > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
      > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
      >
      > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
      > mixer)?
      >
      > Helen
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
      >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
      >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
      >> to Hungarian?
      >
      >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
      >
      > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
      > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
      > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual
      > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
      >
      > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning
      > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
      > in the original one.
      >
      > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
      > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
      > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
      >
      > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
      > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a
      > range of uses.
      >
      > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable
      > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source
      > language.
      >
      > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
      > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
      > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
      > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
      > circumstances, etc.
      >
      > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
      > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
      > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
      > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
      > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
      >
      >
      > Martin
      >
      > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
      >
      >
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      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
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      > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Helen Fedor
      Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich prevzatie Mad armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._ Bratislava:
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich
        prevzatie Mad'armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._
        Bratislava: Veda, 1990.

        Helen




        >>> cnovotni@... 2/2/2005 4:59:06 PM >>>
        What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
        Carol
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
        To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
        Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


        >
        > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in
        Slovakia
        > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the
        Slavic
        > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
        > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?)
        later,
        > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
        > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
        >
        > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
        > mixer)?
        >
        > Helen
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
        >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
        >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
        >> to Hungarian?
        >
        >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
        >
        > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
        > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
        > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual

        > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
        >
        > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning

        > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
        > in the original one.
        >
        > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
        > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
        > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
        >
        > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
        > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a

        > range of uses.
        >
        > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable

        > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source

        > language.
        >
        > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
        > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
        > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
        > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
        > circumstances, etc.
        >
        > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
        > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
        > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
        > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
        > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
        >
        >
        > Martin
        >
        > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        Yahoo! Groups Links
        To visit your group on the web, go to:
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      • Martin Votruba
        ... Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to take account of, i.e., any answer isn t much of an answer. Halupki is a piece of
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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          > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
          > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
          > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
          > Hungarian derivation?

          Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
          take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
          is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

          The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
          (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
          traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
          the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
          Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
          commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
          attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
          also occurs in Hungarian words.


          You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
          today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
          quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
          English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
          -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
          ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
          contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

          Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

          Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
          anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
          get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
          adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
          Slovak.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Helen Fedor
          the more traditional Slovak -u s~ This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: Bajus (not Bajus~ ). Does this belong to another category of
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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            "the more traditional Slovak -u's~"

            This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: "Bajus" (not
            "Bajus~"). Does this belong to another category of suffix?

            Helen



            >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 11:51:05 PM >>>
            > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
            > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
            > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
            > Hungarian derivation?

            Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
            take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
            is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

            The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
            (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
            traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
            the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
            Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
            commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
            attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
            also occurs in Hungarian words.


            You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
            today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
            quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
            English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
            -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
            ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
            contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

            Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

            Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
            anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
            get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
            adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
            Slovak.


            Martin

            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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          • Martin Votruba
            ... I don t think that contains a suffix. Its whiskers (in Hungarian: bajusz). That s almost a historical name! Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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              > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to another
              > category of suffix?

              I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
              bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

              Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok, and
              lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the 1650s.
              He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a book
              about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer oder
              dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

              One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between Spis
              and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn" to
              their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their names as
              Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as "the
              Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as "Raven")
              and -- Bajuz.

              Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely that
              it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs in
              conversational Slovak today, too.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            • Helen Fedor
              My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once asked her if Mrs. Bajus had bajusy too (just for the record, she was a sweet lady
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once
                asked her if Mrs. Bajus had "bajusy" too (just for the record, she was a
                sweet lady and didn't).

                Helen




                >>> votrubam@... 2/3/2005 2:53:06 PM >>>
                > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to
                another
                > category of suffix?

                I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
                bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

                Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok,
                and
                lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the
                1650s.
                He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a
                book
                about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer
                oder
                dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

                One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between
                Spis
                and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn"
                to
                their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their
                names as
                Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as
                "the
                Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as
                "Raven")
                and -- Bajuz.

                Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely
                that
                it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs
                in
                conversational Slovak today, too.


                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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