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Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings

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  • Helen Fedor
    Oops! Yes, I now remember your explanation before. So going back to korhel for a second, do Slovak words ending in -el generally derive from the Hungarian
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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      Oops! Yes, I now remember your explanation before.

      So going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words ending in -el'
      generally derive from the Hungarian ending -ely? And is the Slovak
      suffix -os~ also a Hungarian derivation?

      Helen




      >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 3:07:18 PM >>>
      > double borrowings, where the Slavic (we're talking 9th
      > century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
      > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time
      > (centuries?) later, THAT form was taken back into Slovak

      Yes, it came up a while back on SK-W.

      _Gazda_ is one of those words: from Old Slavic gospod- ("master,
      lord, manager, husbander, farmer") to Hungarian gazd- to Slovak
      "master farmer."

      While the Old Slavic gospod- that remianed in Slovak developed to the
      Slovak hospodar ("husbander"); hospodarstvo "farm"/"economy";
      hospodarny "economical/thrifty"; hospoda "inn"; the archaic Hospodin
      "the Lord," etc.


      You brought it up, too, Helen, when you mentioned gamby/gamba
      ("lips"/"mouth").

      It's from Old Slavic gomb- ("mushroom"/"spongy") to Hungarian gomb-
      ("mushroom," "button") to Slovak gamba "lips" (now colloquial,
      regional).

      The Old Slavic word remained in Slovak, too, and developed to huba
      "mushroom" (also used regionally for "mouth" in south-west Slovakia).

      So _hospodar_ and _huba_ are domestic Slovak developments from Old
      Slavic, and _gazda_ and _gamby_ are from the same Old Slavic words,
      which took a few hundred year long detour through Hungarian.

      Both of these borrowings tell us about history, too. They tell us
      that when the Ugric (later Hungarian) tribes arrived in Central
      Europe from the steppes norht of the Black Sea around the year 900,
      they were nomadic herders who didn't do much farming of mushroom
      picking, that they "picked it up" along with the words from the local
      farming Slavs.


      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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    • Matchett
      Helen, I can t answer your question to Martin but before my mother passed away 12 years ago, I picked up a pocket Hungarian dictionary at a library used book
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Helen, I can't answer your question to Martin but before my mother
        passed away 12 years ago, I picked up a pocket Hungarian dictionary at
        a library used book sale. I gave it to my mother since she had to
        learn Hungarian when she went to school in Slovakia.

        She found the dictionary quite interesting and checked off all the
        words that were Slovak. I was impressed with the amount of words she
        checked off. Unfortunately, she must have discarded it. I wish I had
        it. Julia Matchett


        > Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has been
        > borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak to Hungarian?
        > This came to mind yet again while I was looking at some of the recipes
        > in George Lang's _Cuisine of Hungary_. One of the recipes is for
        > "Souse's Soup", whose name in Hungarian is "Korhelyleves". I remember
        > asking you fairly recently about the word korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder
        > which way this borrowing went.
        >
      • Carol
        What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I d like to read that Carol ... From: Helen Fedor To: Sent:
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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          What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
          Carol
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
          To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
          Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


          >
          > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in Slovakia
          > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the Slavic
          > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
          > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?) later,
          > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
          > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
          >
          > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
          > mixer)?
          >
          > Helen
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
          >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
          >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
          >> to Hungarian?
          >
          >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
          >
          > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
          > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
          > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual
          > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
          >
          > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning
          > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
          > in the original one.
          >
          > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
          > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
          > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
          >
          > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
          > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a
          > range of uses.
          >
          > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable
          > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source
          > language.
          >
          > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
          > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
          > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
          > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
          > circumstances, etc.
          >
          > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
          > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
          > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
          > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
          > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
          >
          >
          > Martin
          >
          > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Helen Fedor
          Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich prevzatie Mad armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._ Bratislava:
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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            Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich
            prevzatie Mad'armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._
            Bratislava: Veda, 1990.

            Helen




            >>> cnovotni@... 2/2/2005 4:59:06 PM >>>
            What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
            Carol
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
            To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
            Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


            >
            > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in
            Slovakia
            > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the
            Slavic
            > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
            > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?)
            later,
            > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
            > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
            >
            > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
            > mixer)?
            >
            > Helen
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
            >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
            >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
            >> to Hungarian?
            >
            >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
            >
            > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
            > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
            > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual

            > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
            >
            > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning

            > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
            > in the original one.
            >
            > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
            > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
            > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
            >
            > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
            > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a

            > range of uses.
            >
            > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable

            > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source

            > language.
            >
            > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
            > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
            > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
            > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
            > circumstances, etc.
            >
            > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
            > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
            > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
            > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
            > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
            >
            >
            > Martin
            >
            > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            Yahoo! Groups Links
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          • Martin Votruba
            ... Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to take account of, i.e., any answer isn t much of an answer. Halupki is a piece of
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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              > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
              > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
              > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
              > Hungarian derivation?

              Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
              take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
              is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

              The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
              (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
              traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
              the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
              Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
              commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
              attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
              also occurs in Hungarian words.


              You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
              today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
              quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
              English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
              -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
              ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
              contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

              Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

              Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
              anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
              get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
              adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
              Slovak.


              Martin

              votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
            • Helen Fedor
              the more traditional Slovak -u s~ This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: Bajus (not Bajus~ ). Does this belong to another category of
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                "the more traditional Slovak -u's~"

                This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: "Bajus" (not
                "Bajus~"). Does this belong to another category of suffix?

                Helen



                >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 11:51:05 PM >>>
                > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
                > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
                > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
                > Hungarian derivation?

                Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
                take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
                is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

                The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
                (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
                traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
                the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
                Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
                commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
                attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
                also occurs in Hungarian words.


                You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
                today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
                quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
                English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
                -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
                ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
                contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

                Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

                Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
                anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
                get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
                adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
                Slovak.


                Martin

                votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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              • Martin Votruba
                ... I don t think that contains a suffix. Its whiskers (in Hungarian: bajusz). That s almost a historical name! Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                  > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to another
                  > category of suffix?

                  I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
                  bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

                  Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok, and
                  lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the 1650s.
                  He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a book
                  about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer oder
                  dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

                  One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between Spis
                  and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn" to
                  their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their names as
                  Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as "the
                  Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as "Raven")
                  and -- Bajuz.

                  Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely that
                  it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs in
                  conversational Slovak today, too.


                  Martin

                  votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                • Helen Fedor
                  My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once asked her if Mrs. Bajus had bajusy too (just for the record, she was a sweet lady
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                    My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once
                    asked her if Mrs. Bajus had "bajusy" too (just for the record, she was a
                    sweet lady and didn't).

                    Helen




                    >>> votrubam@... 2/3/2005 2:53:06 PM >>>
                    > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to
                    another
                    > category of suffix?

                    I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
                    bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

                    Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok,
                    and
                    lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the
                    1650s.
                    He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a
                    book
                    about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer
                    oder
                    dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

                    One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between
                    Spis
                    and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn"
                    to
                    their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their
                    names as
                    Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as
                    "the
                    Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as
                    "Raven")
                    and -- Bajuz.

                    Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely
                    that
                    it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs
                    in
                    conversational Slovak today, too.


                    Martin

                    votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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