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Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings

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  • Martin Votruba
    ... Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native speaker, because
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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      > Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
      > been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
      > to Hungarian?

      > korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.

      Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
      ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
      speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual
      combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.

      Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning
      and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
      in the original one.

      For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
      R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
      languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.

      Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
      "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a
      range of uses.

      So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable
      in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source
      language.

      But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
      easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
      words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
      documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
      circumstances, etc.

      In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
      meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
      likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
      absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
      territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...


      Martin

      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
    • Helen Fedor
      I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in Slovakia (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the Slavic (we re talking
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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        I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in Slovakia
        (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the Slavic
        (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
        adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?) later,
        THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
        Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.

        So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
        mixer)?

        Helen




        >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
        > Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
        > been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
        > to Hungarian?

        > korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.

        Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
        ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
        speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual
        combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.

        Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning
        and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
        in the original one.

        For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
        R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
        languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.

        Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
        "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a
        range of uses.

        So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable
        in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source
        language.

        But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
        easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
        words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
        documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
        circumstances, etc.

        In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
        meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
        likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
        absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
        territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...


        Martin

        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


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      • Martin Votruba
        ... Yes, it came up a while back on SK-W. _Gazda_ is one of those words: from Old Slavic gospod- ( master, lord, manager, husbander, farmer ) to Hungarian
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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          > double borrowings, where the Slavic (we're talking 9th
          > century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
          > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time
          > (centuries?) later, THAT form was taken back into Slovak

          Yes, it came up a while back on SK-W.

          _Gazda_ is one of those words: from Old Slavic gospod- ("master,
          lord, manager, husbander, farmer") to Hungarian gazd- to Slovak
          "master farmer."

          While the Old Slavic gospod- that remianed in Slovak developed to the
          Slovak hospodar ("husbander"); hospodarstvo "farm"/"economy";
          hospodarny "economical/thrifty"; hospoda "inn"; the archaic Hospodin
          "the Lord," etc.


          You brought it up, too, Helen, when you mentioned gamby/gamba
          ("lips"/"mouth").

          It's from Old Slavic gomb- ("mushroom"/"spongy") to Hungarian gomb-
          ("mushroom," "button") to Slovak gamba "lips" (now colloquial,
          regional).

          The Old Slavic word remained in Slovak, too, and developed to huba
          "mushroom" (also used regionally for "mouth" in south-west Slovakia).

          So _hospodar_ and _huba_ are domestic Slovak developments from Old
          Slavic, and _gazda_ and _gamby_ are from the same Old Slavic words,
          which took a few hundred year long detour through Hungarian.

          Both of these borrowings tell us about history, too. They tell us
          that when the Ugric (later Hungarian) tribes arrived in Central
          Europe from the steppes norht of the Black Sea around the year 900,
          they were nomadic herders who didn't do much farming of mushroom
          picking, that they "picked it up" along with the words from the local
          farming Slavs.


          Martin

          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
        • Helen Fedor
          Oops! Yes, I now remember your explanation before. So going back to korhel for a second, do Slovak words ending in -el generally derive from the Hungarian
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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            Oops! Yes, I now remember your explanation before.

            So going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words ending in -el'
            generally derive from the Hungarian ending -ely? And is the Slovak
            suffix -os~ also a Hungarian derivation?

            Helen




            >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 3:07:18 PM >>>
            > double borrowings, where the Slavic (we're talking 9th
            > century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
            > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time
            > (centuries?) later, THAT form was taken back into Slovak

            Yes, it came up a while back on SK-W.

            _Gazda_ is one of those words: from Old Slavic gospod- ("master,
            lord, manager, husbander, farmer") to Hungarian gazd- to Slovak
            "master farmer."

            While the Old Slavic gospod- that remianed in Slovak developed to the
            Slovak hospodar ("husbander"); hospodarstvo "farm"/"economy";
            hospodarny "economical/thrifty"; hospoda "inn"; the archaic Hospodin
            "the Lord," etc.


            You brought it up, too, Helen, when you mentioned gamby/gamba
            ("lips"/"mouth").

            It's from Old Slavic gomb- ("mushroom"/"spongy") to Hungarian gomb-
            ("mushroom," "button") to Slovak gamba "lips" (now colloquial,
            regional).

            The Old Slavic word remained in Slovak, too, and developed to huba
            "mushroom" (also used regionally for "mouth" in south-west Slovakia).

            So _hospodar_ and _huba_ are domestic Slovak developments from Old
            Slavic, and _gazda_ and _gamby_ are from the same Old Slavic words,
            which took a few hundred year long detour through Hungarian.

            Both of these borrowings tell us about history, too. They tell us
            that when the Ugric (later Hungarian) tribes arrived in Central
            Europe from the steppes norht of the Black Sea around the year 900,
            they were nomadic herders who didn't do much farming of mushroom
            picking, that they "picked it up" along with the words from the local
            farming Slavs.


            Martin

            votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


            Yahoo! Groups Links
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          • Matchett
            Helen, I can t answer your question to Martin but before my mother passed away 12 years ago, I picked up a pocket Hungarian dictionary at a library used book
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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              Helen, I can't answer your question to Martin but before my mother
              passed away 12 years ago, I picked up a pocket Hungarian dictionary at
              a library used book sale. I gave it to my mother since she had to
              learn Hungarian when she went to school in Slovakia.

              She found the dictionary quite interesting and checked off all the
              words that were Slovak. I was impressed with the amount of words she
              checked off. Unfortunately, she must have discarded it. I wish I had
              it. Julia Matchett


              > Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has been
              > borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak to Hungarian?
              > This came to mind yet again while I was looking at some of the recipes
              > in George Lang's _Cuisine of Hungary_. One of the recipes is for
              > "Souse's Soup", whose name in Hungarian is "Korhelyleves". I remember
              > asking you fairly recently about the word korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder
              > which way this borrowing went.
              >
            • Carol
              What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I d like to read that Carol ... From: Helen Fedor To: Sent:
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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                What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
                Carol
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
                To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


                >
                > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in Slovakia
                > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the Slavic
                > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
                > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?) later,
                > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
                > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
                >
                > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
                > mixer)?
                >
                > Helen
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
                >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
                >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
                >> to Hungarian?
                >
                >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
                >
                > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
                > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
                > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual
                > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
                >
                > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning
                > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
                > in the original one.
                >
                > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
                > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
                > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
                >
                > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
                > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a
                > range of uses.
                >
                > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable
                > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source
                > language.
                >
                > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
                > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
                > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
                > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
                > circumstances, etc.
                >
                > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
                > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
                > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
                > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
                > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
                >
                >
                > Martin
                >
                > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Helen Fedor
                Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich prevzatie Mad armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._ Bratislava:
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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                  Varsik, Branislav. _Slovanske (slovenske) nazvy riek na slovensku a ich
                  prevzatie Mad'armi v 10.-12. storoci: prispevok k etnogeneze Slovakov._
                  Bratislava: Veda, 1990.

                  Helen




                  >>> cnovotni@... 2/2/2005 4:59:06 PM >>>
                  What was the name of the book on rivers, Helen? I 'd like to read that
                  Carol
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Helen Fedor" <hfed@...>
                  To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Slovak/Hungarian borrowings


                  >
                  > I also remember reading (in a book on the names of rivers in
                  Slovakia
                  > (yes, I read oddball things)) about double borrowings, where the
                  Slavic
                  > (we're talking 9th century or so) name was taken into Hungarian and
                  > adapted to Hungarian phonology, and then some time (centuries?)
                  later,
                  > THAT form was taken back into Slovak with further adaptations to the
                  > Slovak phonology at that time. It's enough to make your head spin.
                  >
                  > So what's the Slovak word for "mixer" (as in, a hand-held electric
                  > mixer)?
                  >
                  > Helen
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 12:30:05 PM >>>
                  >> Are there obvious/easy ways to tell if a Hungarian word has
                  >> been borrowed into Slovak or if the borrowing is from Slovak
                  >> to Hungarian?
                  >
                  >> korhel' vs. pijak, and wonder which way this borrowing went.
                  >
                  > Korhel~ went from Hungarian to Slovak, Helen, but there are no easy
                  > ways. Occasionally, it can be obvious to a Slovak/Hungarian native
                  > speaker, because they recognize that the word is rare, has an unusual

                  > combination of sounds, etc. But "obvious" can be wrong, of course.
                  >
                  > Another good indicator is that a borrowed word has a limited meaning

                  > and fewer related words in the new language, while a richer meaning
                  > in the original one.
                  >
                  > For example, _robot_, which entered English through the Czech play
                  > R.U.R., has many related words in Czech, Slovak and other Slavic
                  > languages, but nothing except the meaning "robot" in English.
                  >
                  > Or _mixer_, _mixovat_ borrowed from English to Slovak only means
                  > "blender," "to blend in a blender," while in English "mix(er)" has a

                  > range of uses.
                  >
                  > So even if the borrowings of _robot_ and _mixovat_ weren't traceable

                  > in another way, we could make a reasonable guess which was the source

                  > language.
                  >
                  > But it gets quite tricky the older the borrowings are. Specialists
                  > easily disagree, too. Along with the range of meanings and related
                  > words, they base their arguments on old records, historically
                  > documented changes in pronunciation, geographic spread, historical
                  > circumstances, etc.
                  >
                  > In the instance of korhel~, there's the ending -ely; a limited
                  > meaning in Slovak; the Hungarian root korh- "rot(ten)"; the lower
                  > likelihood that Hungarian, a central language in the Kingdom, would
                  > absorb it locally in the north-west and spread it on its whole
                  > territory; the absence of related words in Czech, Polish...
                  >
                  >
                  > Martin
                  >
                  > votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                • Martin Votruba
                  ... Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to take account of, i.e., any answer isn t much of an answer. Halupki is a piece of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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                    > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
                    > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
                    > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
                    > Hungarian derivation?

                    Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
                    take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
                    is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

                    The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
                    (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
                    traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
                    the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
                    Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
                    commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
                    attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
                    also occurs in Hungarian words.


                    You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
                    today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
                    quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
                    English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
                    -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
                    ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
                    contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

                    Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

                    Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
                    anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
                    get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
                    adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
                    Slovak.


                    Martin

                    votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                  • Helen Fedor
                    the more traditional Slovak -u s~ This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: Bajus (not Bajus~ ). Does this belong to another category of
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                      "the more traditional Slovak -u's~"

                      This reminded me of the last name of some family friends: "Bajus" (not
                      "Bajus~"). Does this belong to another category of suffix?

                      Helen



                      >>> votrubam@... 2/2/2005 11:51:05 PM >>>
                      > going back to "korhel'" for a second, do Slovak words
                      > ending in -el' generally derive from the Hungarian
                      > ending -ely? And is the Slovak suffix -os~ also a
                      > Hungarian derivation?

                      Those things can get quite messy, lots of crisscrossing influences to
                      take account of, i.e., any "answer" isn't much of an answer. Halupki
                      is a piece of cake by comparison. 8-)

                      The second one is a little easier. It seems that the Hungarian -os
                      (pronounced the same as -os~) may have influenced/modified the more
                      traditional Slovak -u's~ (obsolete today, except in combination with
                      the additional ending -ik: -u's~ik). We can guess that without
                      Hungarian being around, the Slovak version would have been more
                      commonly -u's~ rather than -os~. While the ending -os~ does occur
                      attached to Slovak roots (hlados~ "the one who's always hungry"), it
                      also occurs in Hungarian words.


                      You can find the ending -el~ in Slovak, although it is quite obscure
                      today unless you want to see, e.g, ucitel as ucit-el. That would be
                      quite unorthodox, though. Most take the whole -tel (similar to the
                      English -er: uci-tel = teach-er) to be an ending here. To simplify
                      -- for most practical purposes we can say that when a Slovak word
                      ends in -el (except -tel), it just happens to be so, it is not a
                      contemporary, living ending that can be attached to new words (roots).

                      Back to korhel ("drunkard" in Slovak).

                      Regardless of all the other complications, since we don't get
                      anything from breaking the word down to korh-el in Slovak, but we do
                      get meaningful parts in Hungarian (korh-ely "rotten/debased"-"one"),
                      adds to the argument that the word was born in Hungarian, not in
                      Slovak.


                      Martin

                      votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


                      Yahoo! Groups Links
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                    • Martin Votruba
                      ... I don t think that contains a suffix. Its whiskers (in Hungarian: bajusz). That s almost a historical name! Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                        > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to another
                        > category of suffix?

                        I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
                        bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

                        Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok, and
                        lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the 1650s.
                        He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a book
                        about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer oder
                        dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

                        One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between Spis
                        and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn" to
                        their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their names as
                        Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as "the
                        Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as "Raven")
                        and -- Bajuz.

                        Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely that
                        it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs in
                        conversational Slovak today, too.


                        Martin

                        votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu
                      • Helen Fedor
                        My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once asked her if Mrs. Bajus had bajusy too (just for the record, she was a sweet lady
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                          My mother liked to tell the story (to my chagrin, of course) that I once
                          asked her if Mrs. Bajus had "bajusy" too (just for the record, she was a
                          sweet lady and didn't).

                          Helen




                          >>> votrubam@... 2/3/2005 2:53:06 PM >>>
                          > last name of some family friends: "Bajus" Does this belong to
                          another
                          > category of suffix?

                          I don't think that contains a suffix. Its "whiskers" (in Hungarian:
                          bajusz). That's almost a historical name!

                          Daniel Speer, a German from Silesia, went to study music in Kezmarok,
                          and
                          lived and traveled elsewhere in east Slovakia for a few years in the
                          1650s.
                          He was in his late teens/early twenties then. He later published a
                          book
                          about it, one of those "Simplicissimus" adventure stories (Ungarischer
                          oder
                          dacianischer Simplicissimus...).

                          One of its high points was his capture by highwaymen somewhere between
                          Spis
                          and Saris Counties. Speer said that he spoke "half Slovak, half Rusyn"
                          to
                          their three leaders, because they were all Rusyns. He gives their
                          names as
                          Janko Paholok (whose surname Speer spells _Pacholek_ and explains as
                          "the
                          Bold Guy"), Havran (which Speer spells _Hafran_ and explains as
                          "Raven")
                          and -- Bajuz.

                          Speer spells it _Beyhus_ and doesn't explain it, but it's highly likely
                          that
                          it was Bajuz/"Whiskers." The word _bajuzy_ (whiskers, mustache) occurs
                          in
                          conversational Slovak today, too.


                          Martin

                          votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu


                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                          To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slovak-World/
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